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View Full Version : Why Would You Want a Colt?


BarryLee
August 14, 2012, 04:28 PM
Ok, several years ago I sold my Colt AR15 and have long regretted it. I decide to get another one and started shopping around today and need some input.

First shop I ask if he has any Colt AR15s his response, “why would you want a Colt?”. The guy goes on to tell me that the quality has dropped and that they are overpriced.

Second store when asked for a Colt AR15 responds, “we stopped carrying them, nobody wants a Colt”.

Third store responds, “we can get them, but they are not worth the money”.

All three stores had nice guns by Windham, SIG, Rock River, Bushmaster and Spikes.

So, is anything wrong with the quality of Colt AR15s sold to the civilian market?

Are Colts so overpriced that it makes sense to go with another brand?

What brands do you like other than Colt?

Would you ignore these guys and just get a Colt?

customaquatics
August 14, 2012, 04:52 PM
i like the "lower" AR-15's as i mean i love my Palmetto State Armory an im building a Stag Arms.

Quentin2
August 14, 2012, 04:54 PM
Well obviously they wanted to sell you an AR. They didn't have Colt so they've got to talk you into something else if they want to make a sale. I'd be wary of any salesman who tries to change your mind. Odds are they have their own agenda.

If you want Colt, get Colt. I've come very close to buying a Colt AR over the last few years but intead went with builds using Daniel Defense and BCM uppers because I wanted the midlength gas system. Otherwise I would have bought Colt.

It really depends on what you're going to use the rifle for but for a military style AR with high reliability Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske and LMT are hard to beat. Of the brands you mentioned Spikes isn't too far behind. Anyway, don't believe a salesman who says Colt quality has dropped off or no one wants Colt.

checkmyswag
August 14, 2012, 04:57 PM
Its still the standard. They may make more off of others though and most others are plenty good.

Watch your lane.

hodaka
August 14, 2012, 05:01 PM
I sold my H-Bar and bought 2 DPMS rifles (parts that I assembled). I'm happy with the choice. Folks pay a lot for those little horses.

RT
August 14, 2012, 05:46 PM
I bought a Colt for the 1 in 7 chrome-lined 4150 barrel that was HP tested and MP inspected. And also for the FA bolt carrier and the HP/ MPI bolt.
I don't consider $970 a to be overpriced.
http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=COLT-LE6920

FrosSsT
August 14, 2012, 05:53 PM
So, is anything wrong with the quality of Colt AR15s sold to the civilian market?

No

Are Colts so overpriced that it makes sense to go with another brand?

I believe the LE6920 is priced right at 1k. When you start talking $1500-$2500 there are better options out there then what Colt has to offer. (HK, Noveske etc)

What brands do you like other than Colt?

That is the problem these days with the AR world. Everybody thinks that this brand is better than that brand. 99% of them function flawlessly when kept clean and will shoot as straight as any other. I bet if you covered up the brand and gave them a Colt, then a Bushmaster, than 10 other guns they wouldnt be able to tell what brand they are shooting. People will recommend the ones THEY own. Its like asking who makes the best TV - Samsung? LG? Sony? You'd be happy with any of them because their quality is very similar - with such few differences even the pickiest people have trouble telling.

Would you ignore these guys and just get a Colt?

I have a bushmaster that I am completely satisfied with. If they had the colt there and I wanted another AR and the price was right I'd ignore everyone and get it.

jmr40
August 14, 2012, 06:16 PM
Colt has a lot more competition now. I still think they are probably the best gun in the $1,000 category. But there are a lot of $700-$800 guns that many would argue are just as good. If the Colt is better, it ain't by much. I chose to go with 3 rifles in the $700-$750 range. At this point it would have been impossible for the Colt to have been any better. All of mine have been perfect. I have a Stag, a Rock River lower with PSA upper, and a PSA. Some day I may regret my decision, but for now I'm happy with my decision.

The biggest argument I can think of for buying the Colt is resale value. It will always sell for a greater percentage of it's original price even if it is in reality no better. I seriously considered that with my last purchase. My options were PSA @ $750 or Colt @ $1100. For just $350 more I strongly consdered the Colt, but I had a FN pistol I wanted to trade. The store with the Colt didn't want to trade. The store with the PSA gave me a very fair price on trade. The out of pocket difference including tax was over $900. I traded the pistol and $250 OTD on the PSA. The Colt with tax would have been $1173.

BarryLee
August 14, 2012, 07:02 PM
Hey all thanks for the feedback. Yes, I realize these guys were attempting to move their in-house inventory, so I was not really too put off by them bad mouthing Colt. I just wanted to confirm there was no major breakdown in quality that I had missed.

I found another place via the internet about 1.5 hours away that has some nice Colts in stock for just $150 - $250 or so more depending on specific options. I might make the trek down there and check them out.

mattleegee
August 14, 2012, 07:08 PM
When i was shopping a couple weeks ago i was kind of fed the same information about Colts from workers

"Your just paying more for the brand name"
then trying to sell me a DPMS S&W and Bushy

"We have had this same one for a few months and sold many of these"
then trying to sell me a new Ruger piston and a Bushy

ended up with some other brand anyway

dave9969
August 14, 2012, 07:18 PM
I own a colt LE6920
its a great gun
can not help but wonder why they would trash talk the LEADER in the AR-15 platform for DECADES.
Yeah, you have a lot of choices now.
Back when I was shopping my rifle I kept hearing:
"this AR is as good as a Colt"
"this AR is just like a Colt"
"they are all on the same platform"

I finally decided to get the one that they all compared themselves to. I have had NO issues with it since then.

Crow Hunter
August 14, 2012, 07:23 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that Colts cost more than many of the other brands to the dealer as well.

Unless they are a shop that serves a lot of LEOs or people who want/need Colt quality, they will have to price the Colts close to the same price as they do the other rifles. Because most people think they are "all the same" and will just buy whatever is black and shaped like the rifles they see on the TV and movies. Therefore, they won't make as much profit on the Colt rifles.

There ARE differences whether people believe it or understand it.

If that difference doesn't matter to you, and you are satisfied with a particular rifle, that is what matters.

The TV analogy isn't really accurate. Yes you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the top of the line TV brands. But you could definitely tell a difference between a top of the line $2,000 Samsung and a low end $600 Sanyo from Wal-mart.

Heck, I can see a difference between my Samsung LCD and my Mother's Samsung LCD but her's cost 1/2 of what mine did for the same size TV. That is a more accurate analogy.

By the way. Wal-mart here in town has Colt 6920s for $1,097.

HKFan9
August 14, 2012, 07:24 PM
I think Colt is matched by a lot of other companies these days.. that do it cheaper.

I sold my 6920 and now own a Stag and a few BCM builds, which even the Stag I paid $600 performs better than my Colt did.

I have no issues with Colt they make a good gun... but mine especially wasn't "the golden standard" by any means.

Like others have stated, most name brands will perform about the same these days if you take care of it.

Crow Hunter
August 14, 2012, 08:15 PM
I think Colt is matched by a lot of other companies these days.. that do it cheaper.

I sold my 6920 and now own a Stag and a few BCM builds, which even the Stag I paid $600 performs better than my Colt did.

I have no issues with Colt they make a good gun... but mine especially wasn't "the golden standard" by any means.

Like others have stated, most name brands will perform about the same these days if you take care of it.

Can you elaborate?

I would be interested to hear what the Stag does better than the Colt did.

What problems did you have with the Colt?

Colt's aren't perfect nor the end all/be all of AR-15 rifles. They most likely won't be as accurate as a DPMS or have a good "fit and finish" as some of the "lower tier" brands.

If someone is looking for supreme accuracy, they should look for different features than what is available on a 6920.

BCM makes some very accurate rifles that reportedly still retain the durability features of the 6920 in their SPR/DMR uppers. I don't know this personally as I have never taken a BCM rifle apart.

customaquatics
August 14, 2012, 09:38 PM
colts to me are like kalshinakov's. you'r semi auto version is made in the same plant as the full auto military rifles. its America's "AK-47" if you will.

BPowderkeg
August 14, 2012, 11:49 PM
you say "Colt AR15", to me that is very generic as there are so many variations made by Colt, which model exactly are you wanting ?

my first Colt AR-15 was and still is an early 1970's vintage.

Sinlessorrow
August 14, 2012, 11:56 PM
Colt 6920's(civilian M4's) are $1000, that is inline with every other brand of AR that is decent.

The main thing Colt has over every other company is the TDP. Colt own's the TDP thus they can use the TDP on their civilian rifles. They are the only company allowed to do this.

chadio
August 15, 2012, 12:01 AM
Originally, I wanted a Hartford Horsey. The benchmark, the industry standard, 'you can't go wrong'

Then, after:
- being patient
- taking a really good look at what I wanted to do with a rifle
- looking at what my expectations were
- talking with engineers at rifle manufacturers

I decided to spend an extra $400.... and got what I REALLY needed :D

Auto426
August 15, 2012, 01:31 AM
It seems that every time a dealer doesn't have any Colt's on the rack to sell suddenly Colt's quality is in the gutter. That same goes for their handguns as well. The quality of Colt's AR-15's has been pretty consistent and it most certainly isn't in the gutter or dropping off.

If you want a Colt, swing by your local Wal-Mart. They started carrying AR's in the gun section not too long ago, and the one of the 3 or so AR's they carry is the Colt 6920. They are usually priced at just a touch over $1k. You'll be able to get a good rifle and a good price and avoid all the salesman BS at the local gunshop.

marine6680
August 15, 2012, 03:23 AM
I'm looking hard at the Colt 6920 as a next purchase. Maybe a basic BCM rifle for the same price.

Then I am looking hard at a LWRC M6 basic model for about $1400. Its biggest draw is the nitrated barrel rather than chrome lined and the treated BCG. Being one of the better piston systems is nice but not needed.

All the Colts I have picked up have been nice, but had chips in the anodizing on the receivers. The build felt solid.

Crow Hunter
August 15, 2012, 07:10 AM
I'm looking hard at the Colt 6920 as a next purchase. Maybe a basic BCM rifle for the same price.

Then I am looking hard at a LWRC M6 basic model for about $1400. Its biggest draw is the nitrated barrel rather than chrome lined and the treated BCG. Being one of the better piston systems is nice but not needed.

All the Colts I have picked up have been nice, but had chips in the anodizing on the receivers. The build felt solid.

If you are just going to get a basic rifle from BCM, I would go Colt instead. If you decide that you don't want it later, the Colt will be easier to sell than the BCM which is really not as well known by the non-congoscenti.

If you are wanting a more specialized setup that Colt doesn't offer, BCM is the way to go. (Mid length, SPR, DMR, long rails, Kino, etc)

LWRC makes some very nice guns, 2nd only to HK in the piston world from what I understand. They were doing a LWRC day at my local gun shop which is the largest LWRC dealer in the US (or was). They were running full auto guns. Ever so often they would dunk the front ends into a 5 gallon bucket of water to cool them off and steam/bubbles would come out of of the ejection port.:eek: They didn't bobble as far as I know. I was working a different part of the shoot.

Colts usually have chips in them because of the way they are assembled. They put the rifle together, then take it back apart and interchange the parts with another rifle and test fire it. It is part of the military requirements. They are handled much more than your average. There are pictures over on M4carbine.net that shows some of the assembly processes, it is pretty interesting.

If you are wanting really good "fit and finish" then Colt is NOT the way to go. All of mine have knicks/scratches in the finish and assembly lube left on the barrels under the handguards. But I didn't buy them for the way they look.:D

HKFan9
August 15, 2012, 09:01 AM
Like I said I do think Colt makes a great AR, but mine left a sour taste in my mouth.

I ran it wet I ran it dry, GI mags, Pmags, comericial ammo, mil spec ammo... I could just never get it to function 100%.

I checked the extractor, the o rings... I would get it not stripper the rounds sometime, double feeds, FTE.

I tried a different BCG in it, which no drastic changes.

Everyone can make a lemon... would I trust my life to Colt.. sure.

The point of my post is just because of what it says on the side of the receiver doesn't automatically make it a good or bad gun, only shooting it determines that.

My Stag eats anything I throw at it.. even old steel cased ammo and I've ran it bone dry.

My BCM's are top notch IMHO and one of the best deals out there I think.

I just ordered two more uppers for them for a personal build and a build I am helping a friend with.

Te Anau
August 15, 2012, 09:06 AM
Are Colts so overpriced that it makes sense to go with another brand?
Yes,I'd say S&W offers the best overall quality at a good price.

marine6680
August 15, 2012, 01:43 PM
I would probably never sell, and if I did, it would be to someone I know.

I prefer the basic guns over the fancy added feature versions... simply because I never hang a lot of stuff on mine. Basic irons and maybe a red dot. Free float handguards and rails everywhere, just not my thing. Never liked the way the rails felt in hand, and the covers don't help much.

My fiance wants a .308 AR... I love that she wants one... hate the price of ammo. She wants a DMR setup, may see about doing similar in 5.56...

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
August 15, 2012, 01:45 PM
I agree, smith and wesson makes a better valued ar15 for the money. The s&w ar15s are generally more accurate than colts from my experience. Also colt only requires a 5 MOA 10 shot group. You pay extra for the pony...

LWRC makes some very nice guns, 2nd only to HK in the piston world from what I understand.

HK guns are way overpriced. 3500 for a piston ar is ridiculous. In my opinion POF and Barrett have the best piston systems on the market. LWRC is third, and hk is last on the list.

customaquatics
August 15, 2012, 01:52 PM
i think palmetto would be the best $$ just cause for around $7-800 your gettin a decent quality rifle with a barrel made by FN.

h4xd15
August 15, 2012, 02:13 PM
I have a Colt 6940, a Knights Armament SR15E3 and a LWRC M6A2 6.8... I love my Colt. It's not really in the same league as my other AR's but for the money I think it's a bargain. I have seen some other suggestions in this thread for guns that are under the $1k price tag and for the money I think the Colt wins hands down. M6A2 is my hunter, the SR15E3 is my range gun and the Colt would be my go to for anything else that comes up... personal defense, wife comes along to shoot, daughter wants a day at the range, plinking... the Colt fits the bill perfect. If you have your eye on it grab it. There's something about it that drew you to it in the first place and I have no concerns about the quality.

Crow Hunter
August 15, 2012, 02:41 PM
In my opinion POF and Barrett have the best piston systems on the market. LWRC is third, and hk is last on the list.

You know this based on your own personal experience?

Use in high volume classes or combat yourself or at least read AARs detailing other's experience?

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107613

This is the opinion of a well known SME.

I have also read lots of good comments on LF.net on both the LWRC and the HK and I have personal experience shooting both at my local gun shop (class III dealer samples)

I have never read anything about POF in high volume shooting classes other than a couple of anecdotes about failures.

I know some guys who have Barrett's that seem to work well, but there aren't that many of them out there.

Only the HK has any combat to it's name, (Norwegian Army in Afghanistan and USSOCOM) although the LWRC has seen some use overseas with DEA from what I have gathered.

Why do you think they are the "best"?

FrosSsT
August 15, 2012, 03:17 PM
The TV analogy isn't really accurate.

If you were to spend $1000 on an LG, than on a Sony, than on a Samsung and move down the line you would be hard pressed to tell the difference if there was any because they are all built to the same specs (1080p - 120hz - 3ms refresh - etc). I'm not talking about a $2000 vs $600 difference - I am talking about dollar for dollar. The analogy is accurate.

You seem to fit perfectly in another phrase I repeat often. The person will usually tell you to get or stick up for whatever THEY own. So tell us - what brand do you own again?

BarryLee
August 15, 2012, 03:29 PM
Hey all just a little update.

As I mentioned in Post 9 I found a place about an hour away that supposedly had some Colts in stock, so I took the drive. Man did they have Colts in stock. They had several on display and according to them “plenty” in the back. The guy told me they almost always have some in stock, but do occasionally run out of specific models.

I settled on a 6920 MAGPUL version. I am sure one of the other brands would have worked just as well for my needs, but this is what I really wanted and it I was still within my budget.

h4xd15
August 15, 2012, 03:47 PM
What you wanted and in your budget is perfect! Enjoy your Colt!

RT
August 15, 2012, 04:40 PM
Great choice. Consider an Aimpoint PRO if you want a red dot

FrosSsT
August 15, 2012, 04:55 PM
Congrats on the rifle, enjoy;)

2damnold4this
August 15, 2012, 05:17 PM
Hey all just a little update.

As I mentioned in Post 9 I found a place about an hour away that supposedly had some Colts in stock, so I took the drive. Man did they have Colts in stock. They had several on display and according to them “plenty” in the back. The guy told me they almost always have some in stock, but do occasionally run out of specific models.

I settled on a 6920 MAGPUL version.


Congrats on your purchase. I just noticed this thread and saw you are in the Atlanta area. I was going to suggest Clyde Armory (http://clydearmory.com/firearms/rifles/colt.html?SID=uu6sjidt4lrnjtbi5k4uif8dd0) which is in the Athens-Bogart area. They have a large selection and aren't pushy.

BarryLee
August 15, 2012, 06:17 PM
Congrats on your purchase. I just noticed this thread and saw you are in the Atlanta area. I was going to suggest Clyde Armory which is in the Athens-Bogart area. They have a large selection and aren't pushy.

Ok, are you psychic or something? :D

That is indeed where I purchased my rifle and you are correct they seem to run a very nice operation. I have made purchases from them in the past and probably should have just started out there. I was just trying to avoid the drive although it really wasn’t too bad.

RT
August 15, 2012, 06:41 PM
I ordered my Colt 6933 SBR from Clydes. Nice people

Crow Hunter
August 15, 2012, 06:46 PM
If you were to spend $1000 on an LG, than on a Sony, than on a Samsung and move down the line you would be hard pressed to tell the difference if there was any because they are all built to the same specs (1080p - 120hz - 3ms refresh - etc). I'm not talking about a $2000 vs $600 difference - I am talking about dollar for dollar. The analogy is accurate.

You seem to fit perfectly in another phrase I repeat often. The person will usually tell you to get or stick up for whatever THEY own. So tell us - what brand do you own again?

No it isn't accurate.

If you buy a Colt (1080p-120 hz -3ms) and compare it to a DPMS (1080i-60 hz-3ms) there IS a difference.

Would you buy a TV that was 780p when you could get an identical TV in 1080p that was withing $100 of the 780p TV? I wouldn't. 1/2 to 2/3 of the price, I would think about it depending on what I was going to do with it. That is the same thing with rifles.

If DPMS, Bushamster, Blackthorne, Hesse all used the same parts tested to the same specifications as Colt (like BCM or DD or Noveske) then you are absolutely right. They will be impossible to tell apart.

But the some companies DON'T use the same parts and the ones they do use DON'T have the same performance.

There is no way that anyone in their right mind would say that an extruded cut thread 6065 aluminum receiver extension is just as strong and durable as a forged 7075 aluminum rolled thread receiver extension under the same identical loads and that is just one of many lower cost parts that make the difference between some brands and others.

If that isn't something someone feels important, they don't have to buy a Colt (or BCM/DD) but it isn't the same and if a Colt is running $1097 and the Bushamster is $979, they aren't getting the best value for their money.

And yes I own Colts.

But I have owned more Bushamsters than I have Colts and I also advise people to go with BCM or Daniel Defense, especially if they want extras because it will cost more down the road to add them to a Colt.

I have actually advised a couple of friends to go with Bushamsters because they were getting them for $700 and they weren't going to be using them for "duty".

Go on Lightfighter.net and M4carbine.net and read some AARs and see what people use and what doesn't work. Read the opinions of the guys who teach high volume shooting classes and see what brands that they specifically tell people NOT TO BRING so they don't become "That Guy" and hold up the rest of the class because their rifles go down hard.

I am not just "sticking up for what I own." I CHANGED what I owned for a reason.

FrosSsT
August 15, 2012, 09:02 PM
You seem to fit perfectly in another phrase I repeat often. The person will usually tell you to get or stick up for whatever THEY own. So tell us - what brand do you own again?

And yes I own Colts.

Well that explains it :rolleyes:

Quentin2
August 16, 2012, 12:14 AM
Excellent points as usual, Crow Hunter. I think the analogy of 720p vs. 1080p and various levels of the AR was especially good.

Some people never get it that a purchase decision is theirs, they can take good advice or they can deviate (hopefully because they have good reasons). As far as ARs, especially for serious use, let's pray enough homework was done in advance.

ben_raines
August 16, 2012, 12:45 AM
All 7 yrs i was active duty and 5 yrs reserve, I carried a Colt M16A1. NEVER had a malf or misfire because I took care of my issue, When I got out and finally had enough scratch put back to buy an AR, I went Colt, HB, Match, 1/9, 20"barrel, A2 version. Went that route since I knew the platform forward and backward in the light, dark and rain.

IMHO not a dang thing wrong with Colt platforms as long as you know how to maintain them correctly ( like ANY weapon). My civi version has never jammed, malfed or misfired, no matter what I feed her, be it Federal, Winchester, Remington, Tul, or wolf, bear and any of the other commie stuff.

Everytime I carry it to a gun show, I get many offers to buy it on the spot, no test firing, nothing, just offers. When I say it isnt for sale, they seem surprised and ask why I brought it in if I wasnt going to sell it. I simply tell them if my wife can go to Dillards or some other expensive womens store to accessorize, I can come to the Gun Show and do the same thing.

If you want a Colt, buy a Colt. If a dealer tries to talk you out of it, hes probably not getting much profit out of it like he would a dpms or such. Nothing wrong with those 'others', but Colt is Colt and everyone else tries to keep up.

ben raines

Coltman 77
August 16, 2012, 04:34 PM
Great post, end the thread. ;)

Colt AR
All 7 yrs i was active duty and 5 yrs reserve, I carried a Colt M16A1. NEVER had a malf or misfire because I took care of my issue, When I got out and finally had enough scratch put back to buy an AR, I went Colt, HB, Match, 1/9, 20"barrel, A2 version. Went that route since I knew the platform forward and backward in the light, dark and rain.

IMHO not a dang thing wrong with Colt platforms as long as you know how to maintain them correctly ( like ANY weapon). My civi version has never jammed, malfed or misfired, no matter what I feed her, be it Federal, Winchester, Remington, Tul, or wolf, bear and any of the other commie stuff.

Everytime I carry it to a gun show, I get many offers to buy it on the spot, no test firing, nothing, just offers. When I say it isnt for sale, they seem surprised and ask why I brought it in if I wasnt going to sell it. I simply tell them if my wife can go to Dillards or some other expensive womens store to accessorize, I can come to the Gun Show and do the same thing.

If you want a Colt, buy a Colt. If a dealer tries to talk you out of it, hes probably not getting much profit out of it like he would a dpms or such. Nothing wrong with those 'others', but Colt is Colt and everyone else tries to keep up.

ben raines

FrosSsT
August 16, 2012, 05:49 PM
LMAO. Yes. End the thread so I can stop hearing brandfans scream Colt:D

Slamfire
August 16, 2012, 07:42 PM
Colt just did not have the rifle I wanted, which was a NM AR15 ready for CMP/NRA Highpower competition.

So I bought an Armalite. I shot out the first barrel on it and was never disappointed.

Because of the great deals at Camp Perry Commercial Row, I bought a Bushmaster and a Rock River NM. Lots of people shot barrels out on Bushmasters so I know they were reliable. I did not like their match trigger and replaced it, but I am still using the lower on my Space Gun.

The Rock River was exceptionally tight, everything was done correctly, it functions flawlessly and shoots exceptionally well.

I am aware of people who have won the big events at Camp Perry with stock box Armalite, Bushmaster, and Rock River NM AR15's. I have met some of these people on the line and they were happy with their rifles.

I still don't see the reason to spend extra on a Colt unless you just want the name.

Crow Hunter
August 16, 2012, 08:56 PM
Colt just did not have the rifle I wanted, which was a NM AR15 ready for CMP/NRA Highpower competition.

So I bought an Armalite. I shot out the first barrel on it and was never disappointed.

Because of the great deals at Camp Perry Commercial Row, I bought a Bushmaster and a Rock River NM. Lots of people shot barrels out on Bushmasters so I know they were reliable. I did not like their match trigger and replaced it, but I am still using the lower on my Space Gun.

The Rock River was exceptionally tight, everything was done correctly, it functions flawlessly and shoots exceptionally well.

I am aware of people who have won the big events at Camp Perry with stock box Armalite, Bushmaster, and Rock River NM AR15's. I have met some of these people on the line and they were happy with their rifles.

I still don't see the reason to spend extra on a Colt unless you just want the name.

You are talking about a full sized A2 DCM/Service rifle right?

Those don't need the "upgrades" that a M4gery carbine needs. For one, they aren't fired at nearly the rate that a rifle used in a carbine class is and secondly they are rifles, not carbines.

Carbines are much tougher on the parts and much more susceptible to extraction/ejection problems because of their much more abusive operating cycle. Things that were added to the TDP when the M4 was designed back in the early 1990s help to mitigate this somewhat. (H buffer, better extractors, HD extractor springs, black extractor buffer, full auto bolt carrier groups)

Rifle gas systems have a much more gentle operating cycle and work as they were originally designed.

It really isn't an apples to apples comparison to look at how a vendors A2 rifles run and how their M4 carbine type rifles run. They don't use the same parts, although some manufacturers try to. And that is part of the problem. Non F height front sight base towers, rifle extractor springs/buffer, lightweight buffers, etc.

Slamfire
August 18, 2012, 02:59 PM
It really isn't an apples to apples comparison to look at how a vendors A2 rifles run and how their M4 carbine type rifles run. They don't use the same parts, although some manufacturers try to. And that is part of the problem. Non F height front sight base towers, rifle extractor springs/buffer, lightweight buffers, etc.

The OP was asking about brand names, not M4's only.

I have an Armalite M4 type rifle, it goes bang. I have not run it hard enough to make anything melt so don't know about all the updates that are apparently necessary for a carbine.

en-frame
August 18, 2012, 09:53 PM
Why would you want a Colt?

For the Pony! Everybody wants a Pony... :D

http://qandr.dyndns-home.com/img/AR15/Pony_s.jpg

FlyerXD
August 19, 2012, 05:04 AM
Congrats on the purchase! I found a Colt LE6920MP-FDE at a LGS that I have purchased several guns from. Once I picked it up and looked it over I dropped a grand down on it. For me I was looking to spend under $ 1400 out the door and after alot of research I felt the Colt was the best choice for my needs.I am looking at the Aimpoint PRO red dot and was wondering what distance it would be able to cover?

darkgael
August 19, 2012, 06:10 AM
Colt just did not have the rifle I wanted, which was a NM AR15 ready for CMP/NRA Highpower competition.
Not disagreeing at all. Just surprised. When I wanted a match ready Service Rifle, Colt had exactly what was needed. Of course, that was a while ago and there weren't all these other choices. (If memory serves, there wasn't an M4 then).
Does Colt not make the HBars any longer?
Pete

FlyerXD
August 19, 2012, 09:24 AM
As far as I know Colt does still make HBAR and Match Target models.

akguy1985
August 22, 2012, 03:54 AM
My grandpa always said, buy a colt and you are paying for the name. Just like a john deere tractor. A colt rifle cant do anything a BCM can.

HKFan9
August 22, 2012, 01:24 PM
The most important thing to remember.... is that just because a gun has a certain name or logo on the side.. doesn't make it a good or bad gun.

Selling and working with guns for a long time.. specially the AR platform, I can tell you some crazy things.

I have LEO's who are absolutely pleased with a Bushmaster.. than have ran them from hell and back again with great results.

I have guys who get Colt's only to have issues and send them back to the factory for repairs.

Now the important thing to also note is some companies DO use different specs/materials ect.

If you are an absolute stickler about a gun being Mil-Spec... than you simply will pay for that set of specs.

Here's the catch. 99% of people buying AR-15's will never run them hard enough to need a full mil-spec gun.

I have personally owned a factory Colt, Bushmaster, and Stag.
The rifles I built all use BCM uppers/BCG's.

The only issue I had was my Colt wasn't perfect. I have nothing against Colt.. they make GREAT guns, but EVERYONE can make a lemon.

I understand wanting the quality for your money.. but often times depending on what my customers are going to do or planning to do with said rifle.. I will recommend something cheaper.

I have recommended even S&W Sportline AR's to people who just want a casual plinker when they aren't hunting... there's no shame in it.

Guys that are playing run and gun games, or carbine courses or looking for a duty weapon... then I recommend the higher in the food chain so to speak guns.

Like others have stated.... you need to figure out what you want or need based on what you will be doing with the firearm. If you wanna punch some paper once a month.. I wouldn't spend your whole budget on a gun.

If you want something that will see serious heavy usage, doubles as a home defense gun like mine do, then by all means.. do the research, make the investment, you wont regret it.

All of us sitting here can brow beat you with info on our favorite builds and brands and set ups for US. Only you can truly determine what YOU NEED. I try to avoid talking about brands when it comes to AR's and 1911's.

FrosSsT
August 22, 2012, 03:42 PM
HKfan pretty much nails it. I think the only people on here that say that this brand is better than that brand or that mil spec matters so much more then commercial are just backing what they own to make them feel better (big deal that some have commercial buffers and others mil spec - they make mil spec boot socks for God's sake)

Crow Hunter
August 22, 2012, 04:12 PM
HKfan pretty much nails it. I think the only people on here that say that this brand is better than that brand or that mil spec matters so much more then commercial are just backing what they own to make them feel better (big deal that some have commercial buffers and others mil spec - they make mil spec boot socks for God's sake)

I agree with HKFan's point 100% that you should buy a gun that fits your usage. I have said that many times.

However, that doesn't mean that they are "the same" and you are just paying for a roll mark.

If your usage is "duty", you shouldn't buy a hobby quality gun.

If you usage is "hobby" shooting, you don't have to buy a "duty" grade gun.

It sounds like you are doing the same thing by repeatedly arguing that "hobby" grade guns are "just as good as".....:rolleyes:

So what makes your Bushmaster the same or better than a Colt? Please tell me, I am interested to hear your reasoning.

Ben Towe
August 22, 2012, 04:17 PM
So what makes your Bushmaster the same or better than a Colt? Please tell me, I am interested to hear your reasoning.

That question could easily be asked of you. You say Colt parts are superior. I have seen no evidence of that, and please God don't say it's mil-spec.

Coltman 77
August 22, 2012, 04:25 PM
There's been lots of speculation in this thread so let's get to some hard facts.

Colt has been making AR's that have been proven by our military in conflicts all over the globe for 51 years and are the standard by which all other AR's are judged.

Do they make a lemon from time to time? Of course they do, they're not perfect.

But when someone with real life experience like Larry Vickers recommends Colt, DD or BCM as top rifles, I tend to listen to them. ;)

BTW, doubters, check the user opinions of Colt AR's at some hardcore AR15 forums -- AR15.com, Colt Forum.com and M4 Carbine. net. Then get back to us.

This thread needs some pics so here's one of my Colt 6940 with Aimpoint Micro T1 RD sight, Magpul stock and FVG. :D

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/DSCN0322.jpg

Crow Hunter
August 22, 2012, 05:20 PM
That question could easily be asked of you. You say Colt parts are superior. I have seen no evidence of that, and please God don't say it's mil-spec.

Glad to.

Receiver extension:

Bushmaster - Commercial 6061 Aluminum with cut threads

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA6061t6

Colt - Milspec 7075 Aluminum with rolled on threads

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA7075T6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threading_%28manufacturing%29

http://www.bhamfast.com/pdfs/bhamfast_rtct.pdf

-Cast extractors vs forged/machined extractors.
-Full auto bolt vs shrouded semi auto bolt.
-100% High pressure tested with followup Magnetic Particle Inspection of parts
-Shot peening bolts
-100%HP & MPI Barrel made out of correct 1050 steel vs 1040.

I can go on.

There is nothing wrong with buying a "hobby" grade gun if that is what you usage is. If you pay a "duty" grade price for essentially the same rifle without the benefits of "duty" grade quality, you didn't get a very good deal, but if you are happy with it, who cares.

I think it is very funny that the same people who will have a fit if you say a Stag or a Bushmaster or a DPMS isn't as good as a Colt, don't buy an Olympic, Hesse, Blackthorne, etc.

Why not? They are all the same right? You are just paying for a roll mark.

customaquatics
August 22, 2012, 06:39 PM
ya to me they are all the same. my Palmetto can do the same thing as any colt can an it cost's is half of a colt :) i mean if your not going to use it to the fullest extent it can handle what is the point of dropping $1.4k on a rifle when you can buy a Palmetto or Stag that goes bang too? an if i was to brag FN does make the barrels for Palmetto :)

FrosSsT
August 22, 2012, 08:04 PM
-Cast extractors vs forged/machined extractors.
The difference between casting and machining is that when you cast something it has the tendency to have microscopic pockets of air. In cases where iron is cast, these pockets of air cause some problems with integrity - however the bolt carrier groups on AR-15's are made of steel (which is much stronger because carbon and other things like manganese are added) So the question is HOW much of a difference in strength set cast and forged steel parts apart - and is it enough to effect the extractor from doing its job? The difference is very small, pending on the grain consistency of the steel, forged steel will be at max 8% stronger (tensile strength). So simply put - machined may be stronger, but not by much, and whether it is cast or machined, both are more than strong enough to handle the 5.56 Nato round (not going to get into more science)

-Full auto bolt vs shrouded semi auto bolt.
For "full auto bolts" The lug beneath of the carrier is the same as the top portion of the rear of the carrier. For the "shrouded semi auto bolt" the lug has to be cut back a little bit (its like 1/4" or something) and thats the portion that is used to trip the auto sear of a select fire/auto m16/m4. The shorter length of the lug on the under side cannot trip an auto sear. So simply put the shrouded semi auto bolt prevents the firearm from being automatic and the full auto bolt is only useful if you want an automatic weapon.


-100% High pressure tested with followup Magnetic Particle Inspection of parts
Magnetic particle testing only finds defects on the surface of the metal. Alot of brands out there use the HPT/MPI testing these days - HK, Spikes, BCM, DD, and a metric ton of others - and there are some that dont. However just because they pass a test does not mean that they are going to outlast another rifle that did not even take the test. And just because a rifle like Rock River or Bushmaster does not take the test does not mean it will fail it. I believe I read once that when tested only a very small percentage of rifles fail (like 3%) And some places "batch test" instead of performing individual tests - meaning your rifle could have failed if it was selected.

-Shot peening bolts
Shot peening is like sand blasting a surface. It spreads/compresses the surface (which will HELP stop cracks and cracks from becoming larger) But since it is a surface treatment it does NOT increase the internal strength of the part that it is applied to.

-100%HP & MPI Barrel made out of correct 1050 steel vs 1040.

Somewhat of a double post. You already mentioned the testing, but-
Once again it is put through the high pressure test and the multiple particle inspection which I already explained why it is not a huge deal. And I'll leave you to explain just how much better "correct 1050 steel" is vs 1040.



Simply put you post differences in these rifles that are too small to even make a difference and even when a ton of people tell you otherwise you stick up for colt (the brand YOU own:rolleyes:) Dont get me wrong, you know about the platform and some of your postings are informational, but you are not the only one that does research and knows about these things. Slamfire, HKFan, and a bunch of other guys including myself on here know alot about the platform and how parts and other things perform and whatnot.

Ben Towe
August 22, 2012, 08:07 PM
Thank you Crow Hunter, you are the first person I've seen on any forum who could actually back up that claim with any facts. I personally own a Bushmaster Carbon 15. Is it as good as a Colt? Maybe not, but I gave about half the price of a Colt, not mention it is considerably lighter than a Colt. If it breaks then I'll put some stronger parts in it. I personally don't care if some think that it's a "hobby" gun, because, let's be honest, only a tiny percentage of us will require our privately owned rifles to perform on the level of military rifles. Our's aren't full auto, they likely will never face the dirt and stress of the battlefield, and we won't be laying our lives in it's hands day in, day out. Even LE rifles aren't used that way.

FrosSsT
August 22, 2012, 08:10 PM
It sounds like you are doing the same thing by repeatedly arguing that "hobby" grade guns are "just as good as".....


Im not arguing, just having a discussion. And yes I'd put my hobby grade gun up to the Colt anyday in any test. Been there, done it, you may have been suprised

So what makes your Bushmaster the same or better than a Colt? Please tell me, I am interested to hear your reasoning.

I never said the Bushmaster (M4A3) was better than a Colt (LE6920). I would say that they are about the same and yes I have put them up against each other. There is nothing wrong with either brand and the differences are just too small to make a difference.

Crow Hunter
August 22, 2012, 09:32 PM
The difference between casting and machining is that when you cast something it has the tendency to have microscopic pockets of air. In cases where iron is cast, these pockets of air cause some problems with integrity - however the bolt carrier groups on AR-15's are made of steel (which is much stronger because carbon and other things like manganese are added) So the question is HOW much of a difference in strength set cast and forged steel parts apart - and is it enough to effect the extractor from doing its job? The difference is very small, pending on the grain consistency of the steel, forged steel will be at max 8% stronger (tensile strength). So simply put - machined may be stronger, but not by much, and whether it is cast or machined, both are more than strong enough to handle the 5.56 Nato round (not going to get into more science)

Yes, I used to be the Manufacturing Engineering Manager in a plant that manufactured cast iron rotors and forged hubs. The catch is that when something is designed as a forging, part of the strength is gained in the way it is forged and the way the grain structure is formed by the forging process. Hence the reason that Chrysler Hubs (ductile cast iron) were significantly larger in cross section that a Ford F150 hub because the Ford hub was forged in 1040V, it could be smaller and still have the same strength. If you made the F150 hub out of cast iron, it could not have withstood the same forces. Hence, producing a part designed as a forging from a casting will reduce some of its strength and depending on where that strength is lost, it could cause a failure.


For "full auto bolts" The lug beneath of the carrier is the same as the top portion of the rear of the carrier. For the "shrouded semi auto bolt" the lug has to be cut back a little bit (its like 1/4" or something) and thats the portion that is used to trip the auto sear of a select fire/auto m16/m4. The shorter length of the lug on the under side cannot trip an auto sear. So simply put the shrouded semi auto bolt prevents the firearm from being automatic and the full auto bolt is only useful if you want an automatic weapon. It is also heavier. This helps increase the amount of time it takes for the bolt to open, which reduces the forces on the operating parts and helps keep the extractor from jumping over the rim before the pressure has dropped enough so the brass can "let go" of the chamber walls. It also helps as the gas port erodes through use and gets progressively more "over gassed". The "H" buffer that is in the stock also helps with this as well.

Magnetic particle testing only finds defects on the surface of the metal. Alot of brands out there use the HPT/MPI testing these days - HK, Spikes, BCM, DD, and a metric ton of others - and there are some that dont. However just because they pass a test does not mean that they are going to outlast another rifle that did not even take the test. And just because a rifle like Rock River or Bushmaster does not take the test does not mean it will fail it. I believe I read once that when tested only a very small percentage of rifles fail (like 3%) And some places "batch test" instead of performing individual tests - meaning your rifle could have failed if it was selected.


It actually will detect it several thousandths below the surface the crack will just show up on the surface as a glowing line, but it is only a visual check, so it is not 100% accurate. (Dependent on the operator) However, a 3% failure rate is very high. Our failure rate was less than 6 Parts Per Million (PPM) While sampling is a very applicable process for a stable, in control and normal operating process, it only works when your 6 sigma falls inside of your normal distribution. And in automotive if your CpK is greater than 1.67, then sampling is acceptable. If you can't prove that, 100% gauging is required.

Somewhat of a double post. You already mentioned the testing, but-
Once again it is put through the high pressure test and the multiple particle inspection which I already explained why it is not a huge deal. And I'll leave you to explain just how much better "correct 1050 steel" is vs 1040.
I mentioned it again because some companies will only test their bolts but not 100% test their barrels as well.


Simply put you post differences in these rifles that are too small to even make a difference and even when a ton of people tell you otherwise you stick up for colt (the brand YOU own) Dont get me wrong, you know about the platform and some of your postings are informational, but you are not the only one that does research and knows about these things. Slamfire, HKFan, and a bunch of other guys including myself on here know alot about the platform and how parts and other things perform and whatnot.

I noticed that you didn't mention the receiver extension. There was a discussion recently about mortaring the rifle to clear a jammed cartridge. Do this wrong with a commercial receiver extension and you might bend it. If you do that, the gun is deadlined until you can replace the extension.

It is up to the person buying to determine if the things that are different are important to them and unless they are using it the way that Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, or some other trainer is using their rifle, it probably won't make a difference.

But if they plan on ever using it that way, I would take their advice as they have a lot more experience with the platform that I or probably most of the people on the internet. All I was doing is trying to show why they recommend Colt as a minimum standard.;)

FrosSsT
August 22, 2012, 10:25 PM
I noticed that you didn't mention the receiver extension. There was a discussion recently about mortaring the rifle to clear a jammed cartridge. Do this wrong with a commercial receiver extension and you might bend it. If you do that, the gun is deadlined until you can replace the extension.


Do it wrong with a mil spec receiver extension and you might do the same. I've hit my stock on the ground multiple times without any problems. Mil Spec is just a standard that the military uses. They make mil spec everything, does it mean its better? No. Its what they want in their contracts. Besides, if you do not own a true class 3 select fire rifle with all the FN revisions and whatnot, you dont own a true mil spec rifle either.


All I was doing is trying to show why they recommend Colt as a minimum standard.

And thats a fine recommendation. I recommend Colt LE6920's to people sometimes if the stores got them in stock. If they have S&W or Bushy in stock I'd recommend them too.

HKFan9
August 23, 2012, 12:32 AM
I agree with HKFan's point 100% that you should buy a gun that fits your usage. I have said that many times.

However, that doesn't mean that they are "the same" and you are just paying for a roll mark.

If your usage is "duty", you shouldn't buy a hobby quality gun.

If you usage is "hobby" shooting, you don't have to buy a "duty" grade gun.

It sounds like you are doing the same thing by repeatedly arguing that "hobby" grade guns are "just as good as".....

So what makes your Bushmaster the same or better than a Colt? Please tell me, I am interested to hear your reasoning.


I will never say Bushmasters use better parts than Colt's if that was directed towards me... I just have examples of Bushmasters out performing certain Colts.. not all but some.

The point I was trying to make is.. there's different rifles at different tiers for different needs.

You are absolutely correct someone looking for a duty weapon shouldn't buy a hobby gun and vice versa.

My issue lies in the fact.. people see the word Colt on the side of a gun.. and think its automatically the best gun on the rack. Mine Colt didn't run half as good as a used Stag I bought for $600 and ran steel cased ammo through it all the time. Everyone can make a lemon... I don't want people putting blind faith in a gun with out giving it the proper "break in" or test.

I owned a Bushmaster once, sold it to a friend who was a casual shooter. Now that I am out of college, have more money, and work with guns everyday.. I invested and built mil-spec guns, that are running BCM uppers and BCG's. Mine get shot once a week if not more, so it made sense.

akguy1985
August 23, 2012, 05:28 AM
The only bushmaster i owned was a neutered A2 style and it short stroked all the time. Couldnt get it to run right, could have been the ammo though.

Crow Hunter
August 23, 2012, 07:44 AM
"Performance" can also mean different things to different people.

A person that is looking for exceptional accuracy shouldn't pick up a 6920. It most likely won't be as accurate as a Bushmaster.

I don't know if they still do or not, but Bushmaster used to run tighter chambers for accuracy. They said that their starting point for their chamber reamers was 1/2 the tolerance for a 5.56 chamber. Since as a reamer/drill wears, the hole gets smaller, Bushmasters will generally have a tighter chamber than a Colt because Colt uses the full tolerance instead of 1/2. I don't see that on their FAQ's now, so they might have changed this.

Tighter chambers will mean increased accuracy, but it can also mean less consistent chambering and pressure problems with 5.56 ammo. Especially if a company has somewhat lax quality standards and tries to get the most life possible out of a reamer to the point of dropping below the minimum specification for a 5.56 chamber.

If my "performance" requirements are trying to put multiple rounds into the same hole at 100 yards, I wouldn't buy a Colt 6920.

If my "performance" requirements are running through "combat courses" and high volume training classes, I wouldn't buy a DPMS Oracle.

A person who wants as close as possible to what the military is using should by a Colt as a minimum. (There are lots of other companies that can and do best them.)

If you want to "beat" guys with Colt 6920s at the range for accuracy, you should get something with a .223 or Wylde chamber, no chrome lining, free float rails and a 2 stage match trigger and a nice optic. It will most likely shoot rings around a Colt 6920 assuming equal shooting skills.

Crow Hunter
August 23, 2012, 12:59 PM
Nevermind.

henschman
August 24, 2012, 10:38 AM
My advice would be to try to avoid all the emotional brand loyalty talk and just look at the specs and materials the rifles are made with, and how much they cost. I think the mil specs are a good guide, though occasionally people offer features that are superior to mil spec (I believe nitrided rather than chrome lined barrels fall into this category, and Nickel Boron BCG's).

In making my own decision on my most recent AR, I saw that Colt, BCM, and DD all made rifles as close as possible to the mil specs. Then I saw that PSA also made rifles with these same exact specs and materials, only theirs cost quite a bit less, and offered more options as far as barrel length and profile, gas system length, etc. That made the decision pretty easy. I wound up with an all mil spec 20" gov't profile rifle with a FN barrel, which cost a couple hundred less the same thing would have cost me from BCM.

chadio
August 25, 2012, 10:11 AM
... because the name makes you feel all warm and fuzzy?

... because they are superior?

... because you know more than anyone else about the AR platform?

... maybe, it's because they make the right rifle for your budget and intended use?

Sorry to answer a kweshun with a kweshun.

¬_¬

CharlieDeltaJuliet
August 25, 2012, 10:36 AM
There is nothing wrong with the Colt brand. You can get a better AR, but they are the original. Just don't drink the Milspec cool aid. No AR under $15,000 is 100% milspec. Colt is as much as any of the other top tiers. Here is a article about the mil-spec

http://www.americanrifleman.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=2259&cid=4

RT
August 25, 2012, 11:03 AM
Besides the lack of an auto sear and the addition of a 16 inch barrel, why is the Colt 6920 not mil-spec? They are built on the same assembly line in the same factory as the M4.

From the above article..."Here, let me make it real easy for you: If your heart is set on making sure your not-possible-to-be MilSpec rifle as close as possible, my advice is to buy a Colt 6920."

CharlieDeltaJuliet
August 25, 2012, 02:57 PM
They are not milled to accept the trigger group. The lower receiver is actually milled slightly different. I thought the same thing until I was shown the differences. The whole " its not mil spec because it was not inspected and tested under government specifications " is hokum. The colt is as much milspec as any other and more than alot, but still not a true 100%. the milspec thing never held much water with me. I have seen too many "milspec" rifles give issues in the field. Everyone thinks " it is milspec, that meansit is better". That isnt exactly true either. Remember they are built to military specifications, just means the actually parts have to be to a certian tolerance. They are still built by the lowest bidder.... Hence Remington getting a contract to build some for the government.

My point is DD or LaRue..etc have AR's just as good, but I find their quality control and warranty department is better.

Auto426
August 25, 2012, 03:22 PM
Besides the lack of an auto sear and the addition of a 16 inch barrel, why is the Colt 6920 not mil-spec? They are built on the same assembly line in the same factory as the M4.


I didn't take the time to read the full text of the article, but I'm assuming it says that no civilian AR 15's are true mil-spec because true "mil-spec" for the rifles includes a select fire trigger group and a 14.5" barrel with non-pinned A2 flash hider. Sure, it's not truly mil-spec, but I think most folks talking about mil-spec realize that.

And I put just as much stock in the claims of "mil-spec just means lowest bidder" as I do "mil-spec means it's better". Sure, the Government gives the contract to the lowest bidder. That does not mean they are buying the absolute cheapest POS possible. It also doesn't mean they are getting the absolute best of everything. Military weapons have to stand up to harsh conditions and lots of wear and tear in their service lives. There are reasons for the specific materials and the specific testing process used.

However, Mil-Spec rifles aren't needed or wanted by everyone. The guy who goes plinking at the range once or twice a year doesn't need a rifle that's meant to stand up to the rigors of the battlefield. The guy looking to shoot the smallest possible groups doesn't need or want the standard chrome lined government profile barrel. Some folks may like using a charging handle on the bolt, or may like a 24" barrel, neither of which are mil-spec.

It's important to decided what you want out of your rifle, and then make purchase decisions accordingly.

Crow Hunter
August 25, 2012, 04:02 PM
I always get a kick out of the "mil spec is made by the lowest bidder" crowd. Do you guys decide you want something and then go out and buy it from the store that has the highest price? Maybe you go in and reverse haggle trying to pay more?:rolleyes:

Yes it is, but it is the lowest bidder that meets the minimum specification.;)

So what does that say about rifles that don't even meet the governments minimum specification.....:eek:

FrosSsT
August 25, 2012, 04:54 PM
... because they are superior?

Some people like to think so because of such small differences. Now if someone was talking about the HK416/MR556 platform it would be safe to say that there is a difference big enough to chose that over "the other brand". I almost grabbed one of those because they were a few levels above alot of brands out there but for the price it does not do anything the SCAR16 platform cant do.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
August 25, 2012, 06:45 PM
Well that makes all AR's junk,Crow Hunter. None without a tax stamp are 100% milspec. I just personally prefer a DD, LaRue, and Noveske because their quality control is usually better. The fit and finish on the previous names are second to none. I am just making the point that the AR I like many others used in the military is different than the Colt you buy at Walmart or you LGS.

I just think too many people think that just because it says Colt on it, it is the best there is. Colt puts there name on alot of stuff some good some bad... (Colts M4 .22...Umarex crap). FNH,Remington, & Colt all make military AR rifles now. While they all make great rifles, does this mean that Remingtons AR's are as good as Colt? They are all milspec.....

Crow Hunter
August 25, 2012, 07:52 PM
Well that makes all AR's junk,Crow Hunter. None without a tax stamp are 100% milspec. I just personally prefer a DD, LaRue, and Noveske because their quality control is usually better. The fit and finish on the previous names are second to none. I am just making the point that the AR I like many others used in the military is different than the Colt you buy at Walmart or you LGS.

I just think too many people think that just because it says Colt on it, it is the best there is. Colt puts there name on alot of stuff some good some bad... (Colts M4 .22...Umarex crap). FNH,Remington, & Colt all make military AR rifles now. While they all make great rifles, does this mean that Remingtons AR's are as good as Colt? They are all milspec.....

DD, LaRue and Noveske usually produce above the minimum requirements for Milspec. They also, usually cost more than a Colt and have more useful features.

No, Colt is NOT the best there is. But a company that doesn't even meet the MINIMUM requirements that a Colt meets is not the equal of a Colt or any of the other top tier brands.

If Remington puts out a rifle that meets the mil-spec, then yes, they will be just as good as a Colt.

The Colt that you buy at Wal-mart uses the same parts and goes through the same processes at the military Colts go through. Civilian/LEO weapons are a tiny percentage of Colts normal production so it makes sense for them to just use the same parts rather than trying to control inventories between civilian/military production. It is a lot easier to just keep up with a few parts that are different and just build them on the same line with the same people going through the same inspections.

So just because a Colt rifle has a 16" bbl instead of a 14.5" bbl the mil-spec receiver extension is now no longer mil-spec?

Humph. And they say magic doesn't exist...

CharlieDeltaJuliet
August 25, 2012, 09:57 PM
The lower receiver itself is milled different on a military AR. It is milled for the tri-burst trigger. So the barrel and the lower and fire controls are different. That was my whole point about the differences...

checkmyswag
August 25, 2012, 10:06 PM
Colt is the standard. Doesn't mean there aren't better ones though.

Watch your lane.

Quentin2
August 25, 2012, 11:30 PM
...I just think too many people think that just because it says Colt on it, it is the best there is. Colt puts there name on alot of stuff some good some bad... (Colts M4 .22...Umarex crap)...

Curious where you came up with that. Do you own a Colt M4 .22lr? I do and it shoots all day if you use the right ammo, it loves Federal and WW value pack, the cheap stuff at Walmart. It hates Remington Golden Bullet but so does the S&W M&P15-22. And by the way Walther makes this 'Colt' not Umarex.

Anyway, Colt makes great ARs and you don't have to worry if they're "as good as". I'd own one myself if they offered a midlength, instead I went with BCM and Daniel Defense which are pretty darn close to milspec. As has been pointed out, the only real difference between a semiauto Colt M4gery and the real M4/M4A1 are the barrel length and the lower receiver is altered slightly to allow select fire. Physically they're small things but huge legally.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
August 26, 2012, 10:23 AM
Yep, I own the Colt M4 .22, I despise it. Walther owns Umarex, btw.http://www.colt22rimfire.com/index.php?page=colt-m4-carbine
Look right above Firearm Safety at the top of the page. I am sorry, dodn't mean to **** in anyones corn flakes, was just making the point that NO AR without a tax stamp is 100% milspec.

And I made my opinion known that they are not the best quality AR on the market. That other companies make a better version of the AR. I own many Colts. Some I love, some are junk. They are just like any other mass production manufacture, some of their products arent so great.

royal barnes
September 3, 2012, 05:04 PM
I'm 68 years old and just bought my first AR-15 and it is a Colt LE6920. Why? I liked the price, I like the Pony, and I'm just going to use it for SD and a little range work. No changes, no addons. Works for me.;)

darkgael
September 3, 2012, 06:45 PM
colt only requires a 5 MOA 10 shot group.
Five MOA at what distance? Just asking.

My own Colt....from the 1980s, a Match Target HBar, shoots way better than 5 MOA; the best groups I have had with any firearm...1/2 MOA, though that was at 100 yards, five shots, not ten. Iron sights.

Father Time
September 4, 2012, 10:19 AM
Uh... dosen't MOA mean MOA at all distances?
MOA at 100 yards is ~ 1 inch
MOA at 200 is ~ 2 inches

So MOA isn't a fixed size of group its a relative thing.

Stevie-Ray
September 4, 2012, 02:48 PM
I'm a Colt guy, have been for a long time. I own 3 Colt handguns. When I wanted an AR, years ago, it for me was between Colt and Bushmaster, both of which the same dealer carried. He left them both out on the counter for me until I was satisfied. I ended up with the Colt, though it was $200 more. A 6721 for $1250, which at the time was a decent price, right after the AWB sunsetted. I've never been sorry as it's a great gun.

HKFan9
September 4, 2012, 03:34 PM
CMT produces a lot of parts for Colt... including their lowers... and fire control groups.. (Even on the full auto mil spec rifles.)

CMT's in house AR brand is Stag.

Colt makes a great rifle...are they they standard that all others are judged by? Maybe in the 80's and 90's I would say yes.

They are great rifles... I have owned a crappy example of one... but I have fired many that have been A+.

AR's to me are all inter-related anymore.. there are a few big makers behind the scenes cranking out parts for a lot of companies.. its rapidly changing.. and continues to EVOLVE... which is why I love the AR platform.

I have owned a lot of factory AR's and well as AR's I built myself. Really there is no right or wrong as long as you build it to a specific purpose (Varmint or Target shooters don't really need a chrome lined barrel.. and so on)

As long as the parts are made well, and in spec... and you aren't shooting incredibly high volumes of ammo at a fast rate, that $700 Stag will more than likely last just as long as that $1000 Colt. 99% of people buying AR's will never run them hard enough... they spend more time dressing them up and talking about them on the internet then they do behind the trigger... I am not trying to be rude.. as I am gulty of it as well.:o I would bet money you will shoot out your barrel before you have any other issues that are not mag related.

A few of my AR's have seen high volume... but I work for a gun shop and spend a few times a week at the range for work and pleasure.. I also get a significant discount on ammo... and I pay 3 friends with Dillion presses to reload for me. I am not above buying bulk steel cased ammo either and beating on some of my AR's. Generally my used $600 Stag gets the steel cased stuff.. and it runs it fine.

Point I am trying to make... buy what you can comfortably afford... and go enjoy it. It's an AR-15... if something breaks or is screwing up... either send it for a repair.. or order the parts and fix it yourself... that overall was a major feature of the design.;)

Crow Hunter
September 4, 2012, 04:14 PM
CMT produces a lot of parts for Colt... including their lowers... and fire control groups.. (Even on the full auto mil spec rifles.)

CMT's in house AR brand is Stag.

The company that I used to work for made brake rotors for the Ford F150 (among many others.)

The parts that didn't make the minimum .020 micron LRO specification for Ford, were sold to aftermarket. They were made on the same equipment out of the same materials, but they didn't meet the specification. We didn't scrap them.

The company I worked at before that made oil filters and air filters. They had 2 specifications. The Toyota OEM specification and the "others" specifications. Both could be used on a Toyota vehicle, but one had a lower quality filter media and different tolerances, (and sold for a lot less).

The same thing goes on in the gun industry and other industries.


I have owned a lot of factory AR's and well as AR's I built myself. Really there is no right or wrong as long as you build it to a specific purpose (Varmint or Target shooters don't really need a chrome lined barrel.. and so on)

As long as the parts are made well, and in spec... and you aren't shooting incredibly high volumes of ammo at a fast rate, that $700 Stag will more than likely last just as long as that $1000 Colt. 99% of people buying AR's will never run them hard enough... they spend more time dressing them up and talking about them on the internet then they do behind the trigger... I am not trying to be rude.. as I am gulty of it as well. I would bet money you will shoot out your barrel before you have any other issues that are not mag related.


I agree with you 100% here. But IFyou need at least the minimum of milspec quality, Colt is where you should start looking and it is the reason why you would pick Colt over brands like Bushmaster or DPMS or others most commonly seen on dealer shelves. Colts aren't the best out there, and they really won't be the best if you are looking for "fit and finish", and typically won't have gnat's posterior accuracy but they are the "standard".

AR rifles are either better than Colt, worse than Colt or "just as good as" Colt.

That makes them the "standard".

FrosSsT
September 4, 2012, 04:27 PM
99% of people buying AR's will never run them hard enough... they spend more time dressing them up and talking about them on the internet then they do behind the trigger

Truer words have never been spoken.

I've put x brand against y brand (same price point) and put them through some beatings and courses and they were pretty much the same. The only people who will still argue against that are the people clutching onto a brand with "data" that has such small differences it does not even matter in the real world. If you start talking BIG differences like the HK MR556 vs Colt THEN there is a difference big enough to consider what brand to go with - other than that - pick your logo. You get what you pay for, and dollar for dollar they are like TV's.

Chris_B
September 4, 2012, 04:32 PM
I bought what I wanted to buy. And I bought a Colt, an older one. Did it after considering many brands, and taking somebody very knowledgeable about ARs with me to shops. And for what I wanted, the Colt was it. Don't want a short barrel, don't want rails, don't want doo-dads and gee-gaws. Want a solid rifle in 5.56 that's light and reliable. For me, my Colt has been stellar

If I had run into a shop that asked me "why do you want a Colt?", I 'd reply with "because it's my money. If you give me the money to buy something, I'll buy whatever AR you want me to"

FrosSsT
September 4, 2012, 04:36 PM
Colt is where you should start looking and it is the reason why you would pick Colt over brands like Bushmaster or DPMS or others most commonly seen on dealer shelves


I'd say models instead of brands. I'd take the Colt over the Bushmaster Carbon, but NOT over the ACR, and I believe the LE6920 is at the same level as the M4A3 patrolmans carbine.

ritepath
September 4, 2012, 07:55 PM
So I could finally be accepted at M4 and AR15 sites.:D

Crow Hunter
September 4, 2012, 08:14 PM
I've put x brand against y brand (same price point) and put them through some beatings and courses and they were pretty much the same.

Which courses are those? I know that Pat Rogers specifically recommends against certain brands because of their poor performance and I don't know of any other well known trainer that recommends anything less than a Colt as a minimum. Can you share your info?

If you start talking BIG differences like the HK MR556 vs Colt

Care to elaborate on those differences? From what I know, there is less difference between the HK and the Colt than there is difference between the Colt and a Bushmaster when it comes to manufacturing and materials used. But maybe you have data that I don't have.

I'd say models instead of brands. I'd take the Colt over the Bushmaster Carbon, but NOT over the ACR, and I believe the LE6920 is at the same level as the M4A3 patrolmans carbine.

We will have to disagree there. I would take a Colt over a Bushmaster ACR any day of the week if I had to rely on it for anything other than range use.

I also wouldn't use the term model.

Wouldn't it be odd to you to call a Chevy and a Ford the same model even if they are both trucks?

HKFan9
September 4, 2012, 08:24 PM
I can't disclose all the information, but I have shot my fair share of ACR's and I had one at order through my job for a significant discount, though I wasn't willing to wait a few months for the ATACS camo one I wanted.. I ended up canceling it.

The ACR is nice... but it does absolutely nothing better than my AR's do.... I just wanted something different for a change of pace.

Don't mean to open another can of worms here.. but performance wise.... they are about the same as an AR. Sure its easier to take apart.. change barrels or calibers... but its not even that difficult on an AR... If I had to pay full price for one.. I would not even consider purchasing one.. I can't disclose what my price would have been... but it was a considerable discount. I merely wanted one to just have something different.

Instead... I just build another AR using a BCM upper and BCG, almost done with it now. Still waiting for my Trijicon and a few small pieces to come in to finish it.;)

I can honestly say I wouldn't loose any sleep at night having owned and owning a Stag over a Colt in performance or durability. I am not a brand loyalist, I have owned both... I have had my personal experiences with both... which at face value I would take my experience with my particular Stag over my particular Colt... but as a whole... having worked side by side with gun smiths seeing a fair share of broke rifle and factory defects... I have no see much between the two brands and even other brands to make a major difference.

Mil Spec to me is a guide line for something they wanted.. not the end all be all.. sure I can appreciate good tolerances and better materials... but we are talking about carbines... not bench rest rifles... generally in a mil-spec gun your fitting is loose to allow it to run in harsh conditions.

I know on paper a Bushmaster or DPMS is a firearm built of lesser grade materials/specs... but I also know MANY police officers who have been well satisfied and well served with them.. including SWAT team's. I believe Philadelphia's SWAT's standard issue is a Bushmaster Patrolman.

Point I am trying to really get at is... I don't consider it as important as some people try to make it out to be. When I first got out of college.. All I could afford was my used Stag. $600 basic configuration, not abused... I did my research on the company.. and I couldn't even begin to describe what I put that rifle through.. and its been great. I would put it up against my BCM's any day.

Also a lifetime warranty... which many other brands offer as well as Colt... so it broke... big deal... send it in to get fixed. Fix it yourself. Either wont cost you much if any.

I agree with Crow Hunter on a lot of things.. and yes I understand that just because someone makes parts for another company doesn't mean they are identical... but I would suspect the difference is a lower CMT makes if its going to Colt.. or Noveske.. or their in house Stag would be very much different at all. The machining is there, I have used a lot of stripped lowers with many different roll marks.. even measuring with calipers and I have never personally witnessed any differences that would cause concern.

Point I am getting at is I think everyone should do research and know what they are spending money on... but I don't think just because its not a Colt... BCM...Noveske... LMT... it should be shunned.

I can tell you some very terrible examples of Colts... including NIB 1911's we refused to sell to customers and sent them back. Everyone can make a lemon.

There are good guns and bad guns... Brand doesn't always determine that.. I can absolutely say I hate Taurus... I have sent so many back its mind blowing.. and dealing with their customer service often I wish them to go out of business.... Sadly however I know people who have 1000's of rounds through Taurus's that run absolutely fine.

Crow Hunter
September 4, 2012, 09:16 PM
Sadly however I know people who have 1000's of rounds through Taurus's that run absolutely fine.

:o

I had one.

PT92, I bought it used back in 1997. I shot the crap out of that gun. Several cases of ammo through it when I had it. It was pretty worn when I got it.

Actually the 2nd pistol I ever owned. Traded in a S&W 409 that my Dad had bought me for Christmas. I think that is what it was, I don't remember for sure. My Dad wasn't very happy about that.:o

I hated that S&W though. It hurt to shoot and I hated the safety and I couldn't hit the broad side of the barn with it.

The Taurus though, I loved it. When I took my CCW permit class, the lady that was shooting next to me wanted to know what kind ammo that I was using that tore the center out of the target like that. Her husband told her it wasn't the ammo, it was because I was actually aiming and hitting the target instead of closing my eyes and pulling the trigger.:D

The only guy that did better was a dude I went to high school with that "cheated" and used a S&W 41 in .22 LR. (He was the wise one.)

Found out later it was really a "tad" too big for concealed carry. I just recently sold it for $175 to a friend who really needed a bedside gun but couldn't afford a really nice one. I tried to just give it to him but he refused and said he had to at least give me what he had saved up to get a gun. ( Still snuck him a couple boxes of ammo in the case while he wasn't paying attention)

As far as I know, it is still doing fine.

HKFan9
September 4, 2012, 11:27 PM
Which is basically my point lol.... In my dealings with Taurus I can honestly say they are about the one brand I just hate. If it were up to me I would stop carrying them at the shop I work in but the owner disagree's:rolleyes:

But on the flip side... I know some that have been used and abused and run like a clock, and it makes me curse their name even more.

I am a firm believer in you pay for what you get... low end to high end.... However.. I don't believe in having blind faith in a gun because of the brand name or logo on it either.

Bushmaster might not be as good as a Colt.. but they DO hold their own in recent years.. I can give them that. Stag for the money I think is a great deal.. and will serve 95% of people buying AR's well.

I think money spent on a Colt.. BCM.. ect. ect. are only REALLY needed.... if you plan on shooting carbine matches... or a duty gun... or carbine courses. Then again... based on my experience with my particular Stag... I would have no issues running it as a duty gun.

I haven't done my research on the matter either.. but I believe I saw Stag is offering full mil-spec gun's now for a little bit extra.

Personally for the right price... I would buy any AR, because I just really enjoy the design.

I will say I invest the money in BCM uppers and BCG's for my built rifles.... I shoot a decently high volume due to my job... I abuse them... so it makes sense for me.

Also I enjoy BCM as a company for their incredible service. My order has always gotten to me in literally a couple days. Never any mistakes... I have gotten free hats.... posters.. DVD's.. Stickers.. Patches you name it. Sure it is free advertising for them.. but I'd wave their flag any day.:rolleyes:

riggins_83
September 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
I don't think there's any real reason to avoid Colts; nothing really wrong with them (especially the LE6920). I'd personally rather have an LMT or BCM however I couldn't really defend my reasoning, just the brands I prefer. I don't care for how things are run at Colt; I also don't care for the large Large Pin firing controls. I'll avoid getting into my objections about how Colt's run to prevent this thread from being closed :).

Father Time
September 5, 2012, 07:24 AM
I own a Colt 6920. When I bought it I got it for $999 the shop I got it from was also selling Bushmasters from $900-$1300 depending on the model and Rock River's from $1050-$1200.
Now when faced with prices like that there is no reason not to get the Colt. It falls to Bushmaster and Rock River to prove to me that their guns are "better" or "worth more" at that point.

HKFan9
September 5, 2012, 10:36 AM
That actually addresses a bigger issue. Ever since the AR buying craze when Obama was running for office the first time around.. AR's almost doubled in price.

It has settled down some... but if you can get a Colt for the same price if not cheaper than Bushmaster... obviously its a no brainer.

I can walk into gun shops near me however...and grab a brand new Stag for about $725, Colt a little over 1k.

For me personally.. I have no trouble recommending someone on a tight budget the Stag. Tight budget means they need some money left over for ammo to actually use and enjoy the thing.

The difference a lot of people have from me is... I know why and can tell you why a Colt or BCM ..ect. Is a better gun on paper, due to materials.. specs ect. But I also know that Stag makes a very reputable product and stands behind it for a life time. I however... DON'T sit here and insist just because I have a great Stag... it is as good as.. or better than the higher end guns.

Sure performance wise it might be equal.. but I would still say on paper the Colt and higher up's get the head nod.

My issue is people having blind faith in firearms they have no personally shot. Too often my customers tell me they aren't even going to break a gun in before they carry it because "cmon thats a waste of money.. and its X Brand... nothing can go wrong."

I am here to tell you that I have personally had trouble with a Colt AR and a Colt 1911... Do I think any less of Colt.. NO.. they are isolated issues, and everyone has them. Doing the books and paperwork for a gun smith shop... I have literally seen every brand out there you can think of with issues.


Pick what you can afford...get the ammo... and see for yourself.. an AR can always be upgraded, problem is once you start its nearly impossible to stop.;)

FrosSsT
September 5, 2012, 04:13 PM
Which courses are those?

I have enough land to run my own courses (like nutnfancy if you ever seen his videos) I've ran the Bushmaster M4A3 and the LE6920 side by side in sort of a "torture test" to simulate scenarios that might prohibit the firearm from functioning properly - tossing it into mud and dirt with the ejection port open, tossed it around - and even at one point we threw them both down to land on the stocks. (All in the name of research - I could care less about "data" posted online - personal experience is the best form of learning in my opinion) And both of the rifles fired fine without flaws in the "run n gun" course we set up.

Care to elaborate on those differences? From what I know, there is less difference between the HK and the Colt than there is difference between the Colt and a Bushmaster when it comes to manufacturing and materials used. But maybe you have data that I don't have.

Besides replacing the 'gas tube' with a short stroke gas system and a few other modifications this video should do the trick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

We will have to disagree there.

Really? Now thats something new - but I like our online debates, what would I do without someone to disagree with:D?

All in all I just try to get across that the AR's out there are dollar for dollar not much different to consider brands 99% of the time. You get a dud here and there true, and you also get what you pay for. Yes colt uses some better parts here and there over other brands but just like every other brand they have flaws too.

Wouldn't it be odd to you to call a Chevy and a Ford the same model even if they are both trucks?

And Dodge - its got the Cummins ;)

HKFan9
September 5, 2012, 06:41 PM
Running "torture" tests really prove very little to nothing for me. The guns are designed to run wet and dirty, that's the same across the board.

The difference you will generally start to see is when shooting high high volume of ammo. Weaker parts wear and break down sooner. Generally speaking however... properly taken care both should last a long time.

The issue lies in people who lack the knowledge... or just lazy about maintaining a gun. Clean it... Lube it.. Replace the O-rings.... keep an approximate count of rounds used in each mag... replace faulty mags... and so on.

Purposely rubbing your gun around in dirt and throwing it around does nothing for me, sure it can happen... and it has to me... one of my AR's rolled down an embankment with me and a 4wheeler at one point in time, to doing it as a "torture" proves very little to me.

All semi's jam.... you can ship your rifles to the FFL I work for... I will send it back with a video of me making it jam within a few minutes. It's more important to know how to clear the different types of malfunctions and to do it quickly.

I'll reframe from making any comments towards NutnFancy.....:rolleyes:

Palmetto-Pride
September 5, 2012, 06:47 PM
Five MOA at what distance? Just asking.

5 MOA at 100yds is 5" 5 MOA at 1000yds is 50".......:)

FrosSsT
September 5, 2012, 07:08 PM
Running "torture" tests really prove very little to nothing for me.

He asked what course I ran the weapon through - I was just explaining what I did for one of my 'comparison courses'.



I'll reframe from making any comments towards NutnFancy.....

The guy runs his own courses - I was using him as an example. I think he does a pretty good review on gear though;)

waymore
September 5, 2012, 07:49 PM
3 words.. Gross Profit Margin. they are making more selling you a DPMS or other make.

HKFan9
September 5, 2012, 11:18 PM
I know what my profit margin is on new guns at the shop I work for.. it is a set percentage based on what we pay for the gun. New guns that is.

Used guns we make a higher profit margin on, sometimes almost double that of what we make on a new gun.

I am not the shop owner.. nor do I work on a commission salary... when I was a counter commando (now I am mostly in the background doing transfers and paperwork and making sure were squared away...) I generally just wanted to outfit my customers with guns I think would service them well.. and not have them over spending.

I can appreciate top shelf.... but not everyone can.. or needs to... or can afford to.

I here people throw around comments a lot about people like me just wanting commission and profit margin.. I have ran into those guys too.. I don't visit those shops anymore. Just wanting to point out there are those of us who really do just want to help.

Skans
September 6, 2012, 08:53 AM
Because Colt was the only manufacture that recognized the AR-15 for what it really was, with it's CAR SP-1: A light-weight, small, no-frills (not even forward assist) cheap 5.56 rifle that easily handled 30 round magazines.

Then came heavy barrels, floating barrels, tactical rails, "billet" receivers, etc. all just to handle the little 5.56 cartridge in semi-auto fire. What a waste of plastic and metal!

FlyerXD
September 8, 2012, 08:36 AM
I have wanted a Colt for many years.I did alot of research and felt that for what my budget was that the Colt was my best option to enter the world of the AR. I purchased a Colt LE6920MP-FDE and haven't looked back.

waymore
September 9, 2012, 01:20 PM
"I here people throw around comments a lot about people like me just wanting commission and profit margin.. I have ran into those guys too.. I don't visit those shops anymore. Just wanting to point out there are those of us who really do just want to help."

Hkfan, I know what you mean. didnt mean to generalize everyone in the industry. I have met many reputable Gun salesman. these are the shops that i go back to. Its not always about GPM. Some dealers just preffer the sales reps from certain gun manufacturers and their service.

the thing that annoys me are the salesman who have the attitude of "if I dont carry it in my store its crap".

Skans
September 10, 2012, 08:34 AM
the thing that annoys me are the salesman who have the attitude of "if I dont carry it in my store its crap".

It seems like everyone knows of at least one gun shop like this. Hard-nosed, mean-as-spit Owner that thinks anything not in his shop is pig slop.. I never understood this, and many gun shops are not like this. However, there are some still out there - sort of comes with the hobby, I suppose.

nfafan
September 10, 2012, 10:28 AM
IMHO, ALL ARs are overpriced these days.

With soooooooooooooooooo many AR mfgs/assemblers-of-others-parts out there, they should be commodity priced by now. But they get away with charging what they do as WE continue to buy them.

Rant over, I bought a Colt for the future resale value of the now-discontinued LE6920-markings.

I retired my SP1 to the safe as well for the future resale values of this now-obsolete VietNam look.

Bought an Oly to blast with.

Father Time
September 10, 2012, 10:51 AM
I bought a Colt for the future resale value of the now-discontinued LE6920-markings


The new 6920 (with the new MOE syle stock) have LE markings. Don't anticipate that "Law Enforcment Only" stuff to fetch a higher price than any other Colt. Not sure whay they go back and forth with the rollmarks :rolleyes:

but since it dosen't change the function of the weapon so I don't really care.