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Bronwyn
August 13, 2012, 04:34 PM
I ordered SIX Rock River Ar-15's in February during their factory sale. I just found out that the owner of the shop where I purchased them (already paid in full) sold my order out from under me. My order arrived around the same time a couple of men came into the store looking to buy AR-15's. He sold them my guns, essentially using my money to make a profit.

Has this ever happened to anyone else and if so, what can I do about it?

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks

Creeper
August 13, 2012, 04:59 PM
Is there a law against that sort of practice in your state? If not, you have no recourse but to bad mouth the dealer in every form of social media you can use.
This is assuming that the sales person that sold your guns were even aware (or did know and didn't care) that they were... your guns.
I've worked in gun shops... the thought of a commission can make people that might otherwise have a reasonable amount of integrity do some pretty dishonorable things.

And welcome to the Asylum Bronwyn... don't be a "one post wonder", stick around, OK. ;)

C

10-96
August 13, 2012, 05:03 PM
That happened to me at a local place that sounds like Pander Fountain. After speaking to a store manager and requesting the phone numbers of their corprate office- they ordered another one from another store in their chain and sold it to me for the price of the original S&W Model 41. I lucked out, big time, I got a as new in box 41 with all tools and papers made in 1977.

In your shoes, I would discuss it with the owner and try to get him to put in writing that he will deliver to you 6 Rock River AR's at the pre-purchased price. If he does not, remind him of the investment you made and the money you are out of, and that you are going to call Rock River Arms (may be influential if he's a stocking dealer), the Better Business Bureau, the ATF, and the local law enforcement agency of that store's location. If he still does not budge- call those folks, take notes, and tell him exactly what they say. If he still does not budge, keep after him and tell him that you do not mind pursueing the matter to the point it hurts his business because it has hurt you financially (you might consult an attorney before that step).

Be firm, polite, and make notes of everything said. IF local law in your area permits, let him know that you want to start recording ya'lls conversations. Don't hide the recorder, put it right out there in the open. Sometimes those things have a dramatic effect on folks.

eastbank
August 13, 2012, 05:27 PM
i don,t think you can do a thing to him. but you sure as hell can tell your story over and over to any and all who may be thinking of buying from him in the future. here,s what happened to me at a storage locker, the sliding door was broken off its tracks and the owner knew it and just left it as it looked closed and locked,well i lost a lazy boy sofa-recliner from the locker and the owner just blew me off. when i cleaned out the locker i told the owner that i would tell every body about the door problems and that the camaras were fakes and i saw bugs and rodent droppings on my things. i took pictures of my things in his locker and low and behold there was rat droppings and bug bodies on them,thanks to a good friend whoses a farmer and had a extra supply of them. losing the sofa was worth seeing his face turn red and hear him sputter. i have told every one in my circle of friends and i,m sure he has lost more than i did. eastbank.

Bronwyn
August 13, 2012, 05:42 PM
I'm looking into the legality of the situation now and should know more about that soon.

The order has been paid in full (over $5,000) since April. I am personal friends with other employees of the store who told me that he was well aware that it was my order. He just saw an opportunity to make a quick buck with my money and took advantage of it. Keep in mind this was not my first order with them.

As if my situation isn't bad enough, I recently found out that he has done this to other people. One case involved the owner selling a suppressor out from under someone else who consequentially reported him to the ATF.

I will definitely be reporting him to every agency, bureau I can find. The only reason I haven't done this already is because my other friends who worked at the store assured me that the order would be in shortly.

Woody55
August 13, 2012, 05:46 PM
Well he breached the contract you had. You are entitled to your money back and the benefit of the bargain lost. So, if you buy three other rifles like those and have to pay more, he should be liable for the difference too. And attorneys fees - if you use one.

All that being said, if he gave me my money back or gave me six rifles late without charging me any more, I'd leave it at that. Though I'd be ****** and let people know what happened.

customaquatics
August 13, 2012, 05:47 PM
isn't that a form of theft?

smee78
August 13, 2012, 06:42 PM
There is no way I would contuine to do business with them and I would let everybody I know what he did. I would also go in there and demand my money back. He voided any contract or deal that yall had when he sold the guns out from under you. That and I would still report him to everone listed in the other post. The worst thing is that he knew they were for your and sold them out from under you just to make a buck.:mad:

berettaprofessor
August 13, 2012, 07:40 PM
One case involved the owner selling a suppressor out from under someone else who consequentially reported him to the ATF.


And he's not in jail yet?:eek: or at least lost his license?

Bronwyn
August 13, 2012, 08:35 PM
I'm not sure how recently that happened or if its still being investigated. I had no idea the owner opperated like this. I'm going to contact the manufacturer tomorrow and get all my ducks in a row.

BPowderkeg
August 13, 2012, 11:54 PM
is that crooks first name Roger by any chance ?

buckhorn_cortez
August 14, 2012, 06:19 AM
Tell the owner you are going to file a complaint with the local district attorney and the state attorney general. Both agencies should have consumer affairs divisions. While both are government bureauracies, the fact it involves $5K will get their attention. Filing a complaint with local and state legal divisions should get the owner's attention.

Double Naught Spy
August 14, 2012, 06:49 AM
I'm looking into the legality of the situation now and should know more about that soon.

The order has been paid in full (over $5,000) since April. I am personal friends with other employees of the store who told me that he was well aware that it was my order. He just saw an opportunity to make a quick buck with my money and took advantage of it. Keep in mind this was not my first order with them.

As if my situation isn't bad enough, I recently found out that he has done this to other people. One case involved the owner selling a suppressor out from under someone else who consequentially reported him to the ATF.

I will definitely be reporting him to every agency, bureau I can find. The only reason I haven't done this already is because my other friends who worked at the store assured me that the order would be in shortly.

On the suppressor, the ATF is an issue if there is a serial number associated with the original purchaser's name, otherwise, notice the ATF didn't do anything? Wonder why?

So you threaten going to all the legal agencies, on what grounds?

It doesn't matter that he has done this to other people that you know about.

Tell the owner you are going to file a complaint with the local district attorney and the state attorney general. Both agencies should have consumer affairs divisions. While both are government bureauracies, the fact it involves $5K will get their attention. Filing a complaint with local and state legal divisions should get the owner's attention.

No, it won't, not if it isn't against the law. As Bronwyn had not taken delivery of the item, it was not his. Bronwyn is mad because somebody is making money off of his money and he doesn't like it. As noted, if such a sale isn't illegal in his state, then he doesn't have much legal at issue here. He can wait for his new order to come in or he can ask for his money back. I noticed he didn't mention trying to resolve the situation otherwise.

It is a bad business practice, no doubt, but it may not be one bit illegal. You have an order, but you don't have a contracted delivery date, right? Then what you have is an unfulfilled order, nothing more. Those 6 guns were not yours. They belonged to the shop until which time you took possession, which you never did. If the owner refuses to give you back your money, you certainly may have a civil matter. Since you have a friend there that is an employee, is that how you knew the guns came in and were sold? Will that employee give up his/her job to go to court for you?

eastbank
August 14, 2012, 07:16 AM
my thinking too, as the items were never dilivered to you,they were never yours,him being a azzhat is not illegale. he just used you for a no interest loan. eastbank.

zukiphile
August 14, 2012, 07:30 AM
Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks

Don't be premature with your thanks.

None of us have seen your contract with this dealer and I don't even see anything identifying your state. No one can give you good advice, even in real life, without those items.

In my state, the dealer might expose himself to a consumer action for having taken a deposit and not delivered within eight weeks.

Find a local attorney who does consumer work. I bet he will not charge you for a quick opinion.

Rifleman1776
August 14, 2012, 08:14 AM
Unless they had been transfered to you, they were still his to do with as he pleased.
Still, it is stinky business.
You are entitled to a reorder at the same prices or a full refund.
I wouldn't do business with him ever again.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 08:31 AM
The guys name is not Roger and this is taking place in MS although that's not my place of residence.

On the suppressor, the ATF is an issue if there is a serial number associated with the original purchaser's name, otherwise, notice the ATF didn't do anything? Wonder why?


I do not know if the suppressor ordeal has been resolved. All I know is that serial numbers were involved and the ATF was notified. I'm not sure why you would try and defend that type of action.


So you threaten going to all the legal agencies, on what grounds?


I said that I am looking into the legality of the matter and whether or not there is anything that can be done. I would like to believe there is but am not holding my breathe.


It doesn't matter that he has done this to other people that you know about.


It most certainly does. How does it not?


Bronwyn is mad because somebody is making money off of his money and he doesn't like it.


Where are you getting this from? If I am upset at anything, it is that I do not have my guns in hand after many months of false promises by the gun shop. The fact that the gun shop profited from my order is lagniappe and only helps make my case.

When I was told what really happened, I gave them the benefit of the doubt and asked when I could expect my new order. They told me a month max. That was over two and a half months ago. I am just now looking into the recourse of their actions as I have been more than patient with them.


I noticed he didn't mention trying to resolve the situation otherwise.


What do you think I have been doing for the past two and half months? Just because it wasn't mentioned in a post doesn't mean I haven't been trying. I am the last person who ever wants to use the law to resolve anything, trust me.



You have an order, but you don't have a contracted delivery date, right?


I was told between 90-120 days. 120 days being the absolute maximum. Just because an agreement is not in writing doesn't mean it's not a valid agreement between two parties.



Since you have a friend there that is an employee, is that how you knew the guns came in and were sold? Will that employee give up his/her job to go to court for you?


Yes, that is who alerted me the guns did come in and were sold out from under me. And yes, the employee told me yesterday that he understands and will help me any way he could in this matter.


The bottom line is I just want the guns in my hand as soon as possible.


None of us have seen your contract with this dealer and I don't even see anything identifying your state. No one can give you good advice, even in real life, without those items.

In my state, the dealer might expose himself to a consumer action for having taken a deposit and not delivered within eight weeks.

Find a local attorney who does consumer work. I bet he will not charge you for a quick opinion.


Hopefully I have answered everything in your post. I would have responded earlier but the internet at my house went out last night. Thanks to everyone who has responded up to this point. I really do appreciate seeing this from multiple perspectives.

JeffSSig
August 14, 2012, 08:48 AM
I will add some fuel to the fire.

Question for the OP. On this sale on the guns you are to receive was part of it to be the upgraded chrome Bolt carrier groups?
If so they ( Rock River) is shipping them with the regular BCG along with a "we are sorry" note.
It is a green note card in the box stating that due to supply/demand they are unable to supply chrome BCG's with these rifles. Effective 7/10/2012.

I hope this isn't your case but I thought you may want to know to check these before you take possession as after you take possession you will have little recourse with Rock River.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 08:53 AM
On this sale on the guns you are to receive was part of it to be the upgraded chrome Bolt carrier groups?

No. This was not included in my order.

I'm aware that Rock River have been having production issues recently but this was not part of my order.

I just got off the phone with Rock River and they told me the guns were delivered April 4th, 2012. Wow

JeffSSig
August 14, 2012, 08:58 AM
That is good you wont have that to worry with.
Sad that your order has been re sold.

I hope you get it worked out soon with no further problems.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 09:05 AM
I appreciate that JeffSSig. I'm sure I'll be back soon to report what happened at which point I'll give everyone the name of the shop that did this to me.

Technosavant
August 14, 2012, 09:27 AM
I would expect that this was indeed theft.

Guys, he PAID for these rifles. The gun shop was holding them to make the transfer, but the gun shop owner had not paid for these. They were not inventory. The ownership of the rifles and the transfer of these rifles are two separate things. Just because it isn't in your hands yet does not mean it isn't yours. They belonged to Bronwyn from the moment they left the factory. The only way they wouldn't be his would be if he had placed the order and paid for them through the shop and not directly via RRA (my understanding is that it's the latter, if it's the former, well, sorry, but you're boned... get your money back and don't do business with the shop).

Personally, I would be calling the police and the ATF and reporting theft of firearms. I presume that Bronwyn does indeed have the serial numbers of the rifles in question, and a receipt from Rock River showing that a purchase did indeed take place.

KenL
August 14, 2012, 09:36 AM
Did Rock River indicate if your dealer has re-ordered in a sufficient quantity to supply you your guns? If they delivered the order with yoru guns in April and now it's August and you don't have your guns it doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

sailskidrive
August 14, 2012, 09:41 AM
Wow, this is a crazy story. You should have ordered the rifles through him and only gave a deposit... This is also a reason I use credit cards for larger transactions, they give you a degree of legal consumer protection that you don't get with cash.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 10:07 AM
Did Rock River indicate if your dealer has re-ordered in a sufficient quantity to supply you your guns?


Great question. I am on the phone with RR now and will definitely ask them this.


You should have ordered the rifles through him and only gave a deposit... This is also a reason I use credit cards for larger transactions, they give you a degree of legal consumer protection that you don't get with cash.

I did use a credit card.


I was billed directly from RR not the gun dealer. That's why I believe RR needs to get involved and help me in this case. They told me that they no longer allow this type of transaction to take place and now I'm waiting to speak to a manager. The guns, in my opinion, were never the dealers as they were paid in full from the time the order was placed. The dealer was simply going to transfer them to me as they have a FFL number and I don't.


More to come

5.56RifleGuy
August 14, 2012, 10:42 AM
Well, if you paid rock river for them, and he was a transfer agent, he stole them from you.

An FFL dealer can't sell something that they don't own. If you paid Rock River directly and not the dealer, they were your rifles.

I would think that you would have a pretty good legal case. You have all the documentation for this right?

If you had paid the shop for them, it would be different.

The shop had no involvement other than being where the transfer was to take place, right?

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 11:09 AM
You have all the documentation for this right?

I have screenshots of the order details. I have my credit card billing statements. I have handwritten notes from conversations.


The shop had no involvement other than being where the transfer was to take place, right?


I simply placed the order using my billing information and the shop was to notify me when they were in and I would drive to pick them up. It was supposed to be as simple as that.



I just got off the phone with Rock River. I told them that it was my credit card that was billed and not the dealers. Also, that at no point did the dealer have any type of ownership of these guns. They told me that this order should never have occurred since it was not the actual dealers credit card. They called the dealer while I was on hold and he once again told them that he was not aware that I had been billed, which is impossible because they never would have shipped them if they weren't paid for. So Rock River is essentially distancing themselves from this situation.

Very interesting to say the least.

zukiphile
August 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
Bronwyn, my response here may not be accurate or useful, but your problem seems to be coming into better focus.

You transferred $5,000 to RR with a MS FFL. You are not a MS resident. You did this with an FFL because RR is a distributor and doesn't sell directly to non-FFLs.

This MS FFL let you make this payment giving you the impression that he would transfer them directly to you, a resident of a state in which he is not located.

The FFL never kept any of your money, but sold rifles for which you have forwarded funds, and he has kept that money. Now, RR, who never understood itself to have any business relationship with you, doesn't want to be involved.

KenL
August 14, 2012, 12:18 PM
Unfortunately it sounds like it's time to get a lawyer involved. The dealer stole the guns from you, but Rock River should have never done the order to begin with since it wasn't the dealer's credit card.

This could all be solved by the dealer ordering the guns to replace the ones they took, but it also doesn't sound like the dealer has that kind of ethics.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 12:31 PM
This could all be solved by the dealer ordering the guns to replace the ones they took, but it also doesn't sound like the dealer has that kind of ethics.


I meant to mention this earlier. Rock River told me that the dealer placed the exact same order on April 10, 2012, six days after my order arrived. (to replenish the order before anyone noticed that he sold them out from under me) This is worse than not re-ordering after making an honest mistake because it shows he knew damn well who that order was for and went ahead and sold the guns anyway.

I have two different lawyers looking into this for me so that option remains on the table.

John Cockburn
August 14, 2012, 12:47 PM
I ordered a "Gaboon" .45 1911 over a year ago. After a year of empty promises on a 8 wk quote, I got critical. The dealer offered me a refund and order cancellation. I thought about it for two weeks and accepted. NOW I'm waiting for my money instead of the gun. The BBB is powerless, the WV Attorney General is a waste. They tried a "mediation". The dealer lied and said he would have to sell the gun (custom build) at a loss and thought he was entitled to my deposit money. He never built it...let's be real! The only recourse is Bad Mouthing every chance I get and hiring an attorney (and I will spend $5000 to get my $1000 back if I can put the dealer in jail in the process). When I sue, I will of course add Attorney Fees to my damages. I'll probably wind up with a lien on his flea-bag shop...if he even owns that. His late father was a well-know authority on 1911's. If he saw what his son is doing, he'd be rolling in his grave. BTW, this product got a four page special in HandGunner a couple years ago. I wander if the writer (family) was part of the scam! Needless to say, I'd love to hear from other disappointed Gaboon customers. I think the product is a fraud.

Double Naught Spy
August 14, 2012, 12:57 PM
I do not know if the suppressor ordeal has been resolved. All I know is that serial numbers were involved and the ATF was notified. I'm not sure why you would try and defend that type of action.

I don't know why you are using misdirection about a 3rd party incident on an unrelated matter to yours to gain credibility. I am not defending the action, just noting that you haven't stated anything was actually illegal.

I said
It doesn't matter that he has done this to other people that you know about.

You said
It most certainly does. How does it not?
No it doesn't. You have hearsay about what is supposedly going on. Whether the guy has done something wrong to others had nothing to do with whether or not he has wronged you. After all, you didn't come here posting the horrors of knowing this guy wronged other people, huh?

I said
Bronwyn is mad because somebody is making money off of his money and he doesn't like it.

You said
Where are you getting this from? If I am upset at anything, it is that I do not have my guns in hand after many months of false promises by the gun shop. The fact that the gun shop profited from my order is lagniappe and only helps make my case.

I got that from your opening statement where you listed amongst your complaints that the guy sold others guns that you claimed were yours to make a profit.

That the FFL made a profit really has no bearing. Either he ripped you off or he didn't. It doesn't matter if he made a profit or loss.

How ironic that you use "lagniappe" to describe the situation given that one of the definitions of the term is that it is a small gift given to a customer by a merchant, LOL.

What do you think I have been doing for the past two and half months? Just because it wasn't mentioned in a post doesn't mean I haven't been trying. I am the last person who ever wants to use the law to resolve anything, trust me.

I don't know. You didn't state doing anything for the incident with the dealer or when it happened. In fact, before my post, you stated nothing about attempting to resolve the issue at all or when it actually occurred. So basically, I thought you had done pretty much nothing but be upset because that is what your posts indicated. Now we find out this happened 2 months ago? Wow.

Well, if you paid rock river for them, and he was a transfer agent, he stole them from you.

An FFL dealer can't sell something that they don't own. If you paid Rock River directly and not the dealer, they were your rifles.

This sounds correct, but it was hard to get that information from the posts especially given that Bronwyn stated specifically that he bought them from the shop, not from RR.

I ordered SIX Rock River Ar-15's in February during their factory sale. I just found out that the owner of the shop where I purchased them (already paid in full) sold my order out from under me.

This does not say that he paid RR and was using the shop as a transfer agent, but that they were purchased at the shop. If he bought from RR, then that actually changes things considerably.

Given what we know now, it sounds like fraud.

So it has been 2 months, Bronwy, and you spent a lot of money. When you went to the police about the matter, what did they say?

Why has the credit card company not returned your money for merchandise you never received? You asked for it back, right?

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 01:18 PM
I don't know why you are using misdirection about a 3rd party incident on an unrelated matter to yours to gain credibility. I am not defending the action, just noting that you haven't stated anything was actually illegal.

Perhaps I should not have mentioned this in the post but it is certainly valuable information if I choose to file suit. I'm not going to go back and forth with you if you don't see why this would be valuable information to have. Also, this is first hand knowledge from an employee of the shop, not hearsay.



I got that from your opening statement where you listed amongst your complaints that the guy sold others guns that you claimed were yours to make a profit.
That the FFL made a profit really has no bearing. Either he ripped you off or he didn't. It doesn't matter if he made a profit or loss.
How ironic that you use "lagniappe" to describe the situation given that one of the definitions of the term is that it is a small gift given to a customer by a merchant, LOL.



The MAIN issue I have is that I do not have the guns I've paid for in full and that were delivered months ago. I definitely take issue with the fact that he made a profit using my money but it is not the MAIN issue I have with this whole ordeal.

And lagniappe is a term that is used often where I come from. Usage of a word and text book definitions do not always match. I do agree with you though, that was ironic.



I don't know. You didn't state doing anything for the incident with the dealer or when it happened. In fact, before my post, you stated nothing about attempting to resolve the issue at all or when it actually occurred. So basically, I thought you had done pretty much nothing but be upset because that is what your posts indicated. Now we find out this happened 2 months ago? Wow.


I've done business with this shop before and never thought an incident like this would ever occur. I was in the employees wedding and have known them for years. My past relationship with the employees is the only reason I have not taken more action prior to this.



This does not say that he paid RR and was using the shop as a transfer agent, but that they were purchased at the shop. If he bought from RR, then that actually changes things considerably.
Given what we know now, it sounds like fraud.
So it has been 2 months, Bronwy, and you spent a lot of money. When you went to the police about the matter, what did they say?
Why has the credit card company not returned your money for merchandise you never received? You asked for it back, right?




My use of shop instead of Rock River was definitely confusing. I was not as clear as I could have been because this is not a situation I ever thought I would be in right now thus leading to my poor explanations.

I posted on this forum when I decided I had had enough of the situation and to see if others had ever experienced anything like this. I wanted to get all of my ducks in a row before I decided whether or not to seek legal action.

I have not contacted the credit card company because the owner of the gun shop has already told me that my two options are to cancel the order and get reimbursed or to wait until the guns come in. RR told me that they 'could' be in around a month from now but no guarantee on when.




Let me know if any further clarity is needed on past comments by me.

5.56RifleGuy
August 14, 2012, 01:30 PM
I don't know why the shop feels like they can give you what they think are the options, because they are the ones that messed up royally.

They sold something that was not their property.

You should be the one telling them what they have to do to rectify the situation. Not the other way around.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 02:02 PM
I don't know why the shop feels like they can give you what they think are the options, because they are the ones that messed up royally.

They sold something that was not their property.

You should be the one telling them what they have to do to rectify the situation. Not the other way around.


Agreed. I'm going to give the owner a call a little later this afternoon and give him one more chance to make this right.

Tom Servo
August 14, 2012, 02:11 PM
I have two different lawyers looking into this for me so that option remains on the table.
If you are considering legal action, it might not be a good idea to be posting about the situation on an open forum.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 02:16 PM
If you are considering legal action, it might not be a good idea to be posting about the situation on an open forum.


Having people check into whether or not a crime was committed has little to no bearing on my seeking advice from other gun enthusiasts. With that being said, I believe that I have enough information to go forward on my own. Thank to everyone for their help. You can kill this thread now if you'd like. Thanks

one4gatr
August 14, 2012, 06:24 PM
Wow... after reading all this it just seems to be totally convoluted. Bronwyn... what EXACTLY is it you want? Just your money back? If thats the case then your issue is with your credit card company. Simply file a dispute with them... if you ordered something and its never been delivered to you (regardless of the circumstances) you are entitled to your money back.

IF its the guns you want then your issue is with RR (since you paid them directly). You ordered a product... they have yet to fulfill delivery of that item. Doesnt matter what FFL you/they used you still dont have the guns (again regardless of the circumstances). It is up to them to decide how and when they decide to deliver the items you ordered.

I dont see where LEGALLY where you have any basis to sue. I dont see ANY mention of a SPECIFIC delivery date on a signed (both parties) contract. As I see it your a victim of two businesses with extremely poor customer service and business practices and you just got screwed. What damages SPECIFICALLY have you incurred?

If I were in your shoes I would work with RR to either deliver the guns as promised by a certain date or refund your money immediately. Im sorry to hear of your issues and I for one will certainly think twice about dealing with RR moving forward. Best of luck resolving this matter to your satisfaction.

Mark

Palmetto-Pride
August 14, 2012, 08:06 PM
I have not contacted the credit card company because the owner of the gun shop has already told me that my two options are to cancel the order and get reimbursed or to wait until the guns come in. RR told me that they 'could' be in around a month from now but no guarantee on when.

I feel for you, but what exactly would be any other options Either A: Get a refund or B: Wait for the second set of rifles to come in. I cant believe this guy offered you your $5000 back and you didn't jump at the chance to get it. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face----another words don't spend $2000 to get back $5000 that he has already offered you!

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 08:42 PM
Once again, this isn't about the money. I have no doubt that I will 'be made whole' in this situation. I cannot believe the amount of responses saying that 'I feel for you, you got screwed and there's nothing you can do about it'.

Guys, I am looking into pursuing this further to prevent anything remotely similar to this from happening to someone else. Gun dealers, and professionals in general, should be held accountable for their behavior.

Double Naught Spy
August 14, 2012, 08:42 PM
I have not contacted the credit card company because the owner of the gun shop has already told me that my two options are to cancel the order and get reimbursed or to wait until the guns come in. RR told me that they 'could' be in around a month from now but no guarantee on when.

So, the gun shop did you wrong, at least you think so, but you are taking legal/financial advice from him on what your two options are? Wow!!! I noticed he didn't mention any options that were negative for him. With that said, I have to agree with P-P, if the guy offered you the money back and you didn't jump at the opportunity, that was a huge mistake.

RR isn't going to get around to sending the dealer the guns unless he ordered the guns anew. If he lied to you previously, he will do it again, regardless of all your friends who work in the shop and that you have done business there before.

You may have limited your legal options by refusing a refund from the owner.

2 lawyers working on this for you and you don't have a sufficient answer that you come to an open forum for advice?? I don't think it is just you local dealer that is taking your money.

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 08:51 PM
DNS,

I don't even know where to begin with your post. I did not tell the owner of the gunshop that I do not want to be reimbursed. Once again, all I care about AT THIS MOMENT is to get 6 AR's in my hand. If he cannot/will not make that happen then I am pursuing other options.

And since this matter is about to get serious, I'd like to request that an admin deletes this entire thread.

ronl
August 14, 2012, 09:15 PM
The question of whether or not the dealer paid for the rifles is moot. There are no laws AFAIK that govern that. Only requirement is that they be shipped to an FFL. I ordered an AR-15 lower a few months ago, paid for it with my credit card and gave them my FFL dealer's address. My FFL simply faxed them a copy of his letter and that was that. Same with other friends of mine.

Palmetto-Pride
August 14, 2012, 09:50 PM
Once again, all I care about AT THIS MOMENT is to get 6 AR's in my hand. If he cannot/will not make that happen then I am pursuing other options.

Is this guy the only game in town? Get your refund and go elsewhere! I agree the guy is a total A Hole teach him a lesson by getting your $$$ and never stepping foot back in his store, don't reward him by making money on the transfer fees he is going to charge you (probably per rifle):cool:

BTW: I assure you we are all on your side, but don't get mad when you don't get the answers you wanted to hear. Also this is a great forum please don't get ****** and not come back there are a lot of good people willing to help.

Good Luck to you!!:)

Scorch
August 14, 2012, 10:25 PM
Quick way to solve the issue:
Get a lawyer involved, sue the shop owner for conversion (taking of someone else's property that you had fiduciary custody of for your own use), and get enough from the suit to pay for legal costs plus the 6 new rifles. And if you get a good enough lawyer, you can attach the dealer's bond, his insurance, and make more than that. You could easily put him out of business, if you do it right.

MLeake
August 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
Sounds to me like the OP paid RR directly; that RR identified the delivery date of the rifles paid for directly by the OP's credit card as April 4th, 2012; that the FFL had not actually paid for those rifles as inventory, and knew they belonged to the OP.

Sounds like theft by taking, to me.

I wonder if others are thinking the OP paid the dealer (as opposed to paying Rock River, and just using the dealer for transfer), and that's why they think this was just an unethical but legal shell game?

Because it sounds pretty clearly criminal to me - with the caveat that I am not a lawyer.

youngunz4life
August 14, 2012, 10:57 PM
that seems really low to do that unless the other post about it being about the money was correct and he knew he could get others quickly and just wasn't thinking

oneounceload
August 14, 2012, 11:03 PM
Also, this is first hand knowledge from an employee of the shop, not hearsay.


Sorry dude that IS hearsay

From what I have been able to gather- you placed an order for 6 AR from a LGS - he ordered them, got them in, and then decided top sell them for big bucks real fast instead of to you

IF that is correct and he is refusing to return your money or order the guns, sue his butt
If he is saying yours are on order and will be here soon, get a date and hold him to it

Bronwyn
August 14, 2012, 11:26 PM
Sorry dude that IS hearsay


The person who told me is an employee and was present when the ATF came into the store. How exactly is that hearsay?


To clarify for the other poster, my cc statement says Rock River Arms. I bought the guns directly from the manufacturer and was using the gun shop for their FFL. They were to notify me upon delivery and I was going to pick them up shortly thereafter.

Eghad
August 14, 2012, 11:28 PM
That is why I am glad we have small claims court in Texas. File you $25.00 with the JP whose district you are in. They serve the defendant papers. If is foolish enough to not show up you win by default. I had a friend who American Airlines put the screws to him because AA didn't hold up tier end of the deal. My friend paid his $25.00 and put the name of some company guy on the subpoena. AA called him saying they were going to send lawyers. MY friend said come own down with the guy I subpoenaed. They called two days before the trial and said do we really have to come. He said yes. AA broke down paid him the money they reneged on plus two round trip tickets to anywhere in the United States. Plus he got to keep all the stuff the airline had authorized him to buy. If you win and then defendant loses by default or does not pay you the award you can pay another $25.00 and have the judgment enforced by peace officers who will seize something that is exempt under Texas law to pay the judgement.

Auto426
August 15, 2012, 01:17 AM
The process you used to order the guns confuses me. From what I can tell, as a non-FFL holding person, you cannot make the order with RRA yourself. From what I can tell from RRA's website it appears that the order should be going through the dealer. He should be paying for the guns, signing them into his inventory, and then selling them to you for the cost plus his markup.

However it sounds as though the dealer used your credit card when making the order and the guns were charged directly to you. Quite frankly I'm not sure who would legally own the guns at that point, as RRA should have had the dealers name on the bill of sale, but he wasn't actually the one providing the funds for the merchandise.

My best advice is to keep working with the lawyers you contacted to see if there is any legal recourse you can take. It seems that you have yourself in a sticky situation, especially since the deal was taking place across state lines. I definitely feel for you in this one, as I would be royally ****** as well if the dealer sold my merchandise out from under me for a profit. Good luck with this entire ordeal.

one4gatr
August 15, 2012, 05:37 AM
SUE SUE SUE!

Guys... other than being inconvenienced by having to wait longer for his guns the OP has suffered NO damages. Or at least its not been explained clearly that they did.

As far as theft I just dont see it. Contract or should I say purchase agreement was between him and RR. Therefore RR is responsible to deliver the guns to him via whatever FFL. Did the purchase agreement have the specific serial numbers of the guns on it? If not there its going to be HARD to prove what the dealer sold were actually his guns.

I dont think RR and the dealer are going to turn against each other nor do I believe for a second the employees of this business are going to sign sworn statements against their employer implicating them in any wrong doing. Hey I hope I am wrong but just dont see it happening.

I can totally understand WHY Bronwyn wants to punish this dealer so to speak but the LAW is quite different then the dealer and the manufacturer exersizing poor business practices.

Double Naught Spy
August 15, 2012, 06:21 AM
Quick way to solve the issue:
Get a lawyer involved...

He has two. Apparently there are two and they haven't figured out a resolution. Strange.

Sounds like theft by taking, to me.

Yep, if the current version of the story is accurate, but his team of lawyers apparently don't recognize this.

Palmetto-Pride
August 15, 2012, 11:27 AM
Does anybody realize that the dealer has offered him his money back???

Why not take the money and move on to the next game in town!!!

Bronwyn
August 15, 2012, 11:39 AM
This will be my last post.


When a crime is committed, it doesn't matter if the offending party agrees to make the other party whole. This happens all the time in civil court. Simply offering to reimburse me does not make the crime he already committed disappear.


I came on this forum to simply ask if this, or something similar, had ever happened to anyone else and if so how they handled it. I appreciate all the input but no further speculation is needed. ie, I got this.

Ill be back in a few months to let those interested know how it all played out. Cheers.