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Josh Smith
August 7, 2012, 02:21 AM
Hi All,

I'm considering a Mauser carbine.

I am a fan of the Mosin-Nagant as is pretty widely known, for several reasons. It is not a cheap rifle as some folks think, and is inexpensive only because it's being sold at scrap prices by the former Soviet Union. If the barrel is not completely degraded, it will shoot 2.5MOA, with sub-MOA groups being the norm for properly set-up specimens with good bores.

I do have a 120 year-old Commission Rifle, M88/05, mistakenly called a Mauser 88. It is not a Mauser but rather a rifle designed by a commission dedicated to the task. It carries traits of both the Mauser and of the Mannlicher, the action being most similar to the latter.

I enjoy it and its precision is still at the 1.2MOA mark due to the barrel jacket and a few other things, but it's just not a strong action and I need to keep loads below 45000psi. Not a huge deal but one to consider. Plus, it is 120 years old!

I would not mind a Mauser. I would like a short one with a straight bolt. I do not know exactly what I'm looking for after that. I'd just like a controlled-feed in the collection someplace, though I very much prefer push-feed.

The Mauser can be made to achieve almost the same precision as the Mosin-Nagant given rifles in similar condition and handloaded rounds. I would prefer it to do 2.5MOA out of the box. This is a good indicator that it can be improved upon.

So, 2.5MOA from the box, straight bolt handle since I'm a lefty, and a relatively short rifle, shorter than a 91/30 or M88/05 anyway, is what I'm looking for.

Price is a consideration as I will not be using this as a main rifle. I could go out and easily find what I'm looking for around the $400 mark, but I honestly don't want to go that high.

I figure you all might know of one that is closer to what I'm looking for. Do the Yugos have decent bores on average? What is their stock precision and accuracy? Do they come with bayonets?

Do you have other recommendations?

Thank you,

http://www.smith-sights.com/resources/llc%20sig.jpg

Scorch
August 7, 2012, 03:02 AM
I'm considering a Mauser carbine.
Good choice, one of my favorites. Mauser rifles were the "must have" rifle for most of the world's military forces until the 1950s, and are known for their accuracy and durability.
I would like a short one with a straight bolt.
Sounds like you are looking for a Yugoslavian Model 24/47 or similar intermediate length Mauser style action. If a bent bolt is acceptable, a Yugoslavian Model 48 would fit the bill. A CZ Vz24 might also suit your needs.
The Mauser can be made to achieve almost the same precision as the Mosin-Nagant given rifles in similar condition and handloaded rounds.
Mauser rifles are known for their accuracy, they can be made to shoot as well as or better than a Mosin-Nagant due to their very solid lockup. However, as you implied, a beat up Mauser that went through WW2 will likely not be able to compete with a newer Mosin-Nagant that never saw any more action than the inside of an armory.
Do the Yugos have decent bores on average?
Typically yes. Most of the Yugoslavian arsenal was overhauled in the late 1940s to early 1950s and placed in armories as reserve rifles.

Josh Smith
August 7, 2012, 03:12 AM
Hello,

Thank you.

I probably should expound upon the accuracy statement because it does fly in the face of common belief.

When you have a Mosin with a good bore and chamber, say, pre-war, fireform cases for it, improve the trigger (think Finland) and sights, handload, shim or pillar bed the action and float the barrel, maybe applying a known pressure point, you then have a pretty precise weapon.

Mine looks stock but will outshoot many more modern sporting rifles and most surplus rifles. The one I had trouble beating and I still consider a tie is a K31. I HAVE to get me one on those, too!

Just can't afford it on summer pricing. That's OK. Something to keep me busy!

Anyway, the Yugo 24/47 is one I have been seriously looking at. Don't like that they're twice as much as Mosins as I do not believe them to be superior rifles, but neither do I deny supply and demand and peoples' perceptions.

Thanks again!

Josh

sc928porsche
August 7, 2012, 09:57 AM
The design of the 24/47 is the same basic design as the 98. Both are large ring mausers. They both have 2 massive locking lugs and a safety lug. They are both controlled round feed (preferred by most hunters).

TX Hunter
August 7, 2012, 08:21 PM
I have a 24 47 Yugo Mauser, mine has a bent down bolt handle. It came like that from Samco Global Arms. It a great Rifle, the action is perfect, the barrel was like new when I got it. I have not bench rested it for 100 yard groups, but I can easily hit a soda bottle at 100 yards and a milk Jug at 200. with Iron sights. I did have to add a taller front sight as it shot high when I got it. all in all Great Rifle.

FC-Fan
August 9, 2012, 12:29 PM
If you really will buy a mauser 98, then by a pre-war model for example from 1935. A Brasilian or a Peru-Mauser. Both in 7x57 Mauser. Or an S42 produced by Mauser/ Oberndorf in 8x57 IS.
They are handled much better and the precision is better as a yugo production.

emcon5
August 9, 2012, 03:44 PM
A Brasilian or a Peru-Mauser. Both in 7x57 Mauser Be careful with these. A lot of the South American Mausers led a hard, humid, rusty life.

http://www.shedracing.net/imgmisc/vz24pit4.jpg
http://www.shedracing.net/imgmisc/vz24pit3.jpg

Hard to go wrong with a Yugo. SOG Has M24/47s 8mm for $195, Samco has several options starting at $169.95
https://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles-m24.html

DPris
August 9, 2012, 07:14 PM
The Mauser can be made to achieve almost the same precision as a Mosin?

Huh?

My sporterised 1940 Tula with 22-inch barrel in a pillar-bedded Boyd's stock using a Rock Solid base rail and a good Leupold 3x9 scope, with a trigger job, has done a best three-shot group of 3/4 of an inch off a rest at 100 yards, with commercial ammunition.

My bone stock Mitchell's Mausers 24/47 straight outa the box, with its military iron sights and military trigger, has done a best of 15/16 of an inch, with commercial ammunition.

My un-modified Mosin 91/30s won't come anywhere near that.
I think I could honestly pull off half-inchers with that 24/47 if I put good glass on it & it had a trigger job.

While I like the Mosins, the Mausers are a superior rifle, and one in good shape can be a great shooter.

At the moment, I have an MM Tanker in .30-06 being tweaked with a recoil pad, better safety, trigger job, and an extended straight Rock Solid bolt handle at my gunsmith's.

Brand new Zastava production, 17-inch barrel, very well done. Great little boonie gun.
Need to do more with the 24/47 & the M48 in 8mm, but that's a reloading project for another day.

You should be able to find a good Yugomauser with a straight bolt, look around. :)
Bayonet depends on where you get it from. Both of my MMs came with one.
Denis

44 AMP
August 9, 2012, 08:38 PM
There is a reason some of the world's finest sporting rifles have been built on 98 Mausers, and not Moisin Nagants. Actually, several reasons.

Yes, a well set up MN can shoot well. So will a well set up Mauser.

Over the years I've owned quite a few Mausers, in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag. Currently have several still in "GI" trim. Also have a couple of the MN, a 91/30 and an M38.

If you want something with a straight bolt handle to have a lot of fun with, go find a Swede Mauser. Might cost you a bit more than a beat up WWII 8mm gun, but the 6.5mm Swede is an awesome cartridge, even sticking to the 45,000psi max, its a flat shooting, soft recoiling round, and the Swede rifles are very seldom found with poor bores.

To me, the MN bolt is.."clunky" and the safety is horrid. The Mauser is not. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

ltc444
August 9, 2012, 08:43 PM
The surplus Mauser has the benefit of over 100 years of research, tinkering and butchery. Everything that can be done to improve this rifle has been done. 2.5 inches is the low end of the accuracy I would expect from a surplus Mauser in the hands of a home gunsmith.

There are lots of after market parts available for plugging into the Mauser.

waterboy68
August 10, 2012, 12:13 PM
Found a yugo at a local gun show last year that seemed in pretty nice shape. Offered the guy $360 for it and he took it. Maybe a little high, but i took it home and cleaned it up a little and oiled it and it's in REALLY good shape. Seems to shoot well too although I havent really sat down on a bench and put very many rounds through it yet. Trigger has a lot of travel so it leaves a little to be desired, but then I've seen worse triggers before. It also has a straight bolt, but the action is smooth as butter! I'm happy with it so far. Found a forming die to make 8mm brass out of 30-06 brass. So just need bullets and powder and I'll try to get some more trigger time with it. :D :D

FC-Fan
August 10, 2012, 01:17 PM
I´m sorry, i did forget to mention that these guns as seen above in germany could not reach the market. Each weapon must be here for a fire office where it is tested with overload an released or not.

DPris
August 10, 2012, 01:27 PM
The two primary flaws in the Mosin are that short & stubby straight bolt handle that's slower to acquire and provides much weaker leverage, and the extremely awkward safety.

Compounded by a long and mushy trigger, it does the basic functions of a battle rifle, but inefficiently.

When sporterised with a couple of those deficiencies "corrected", it still carries that safety into the hunting field. It's not a good idea to carry cocked with a chambered round and safety off so it's ready to go if a deer or elk's sighted, and if you carry it cocked & chambered with the safety on, there's no way you can get that safety off in a hurry by flicking it with a thumb like you can with other boltgun designs.

Some people with insufficient arm strength can't even get the safety off.

The '98 Mauser is by far the better battle rifle, and the Mosin has no inherent superiority in accuracy in un-altered guns.
I like my Mosins & I'm tempted to pick up a couple more, but I'm under no illusions about what they were & are.
Denis

FC-Fan
August 10, 2012, 01:48 PM
The K31 is compared with other military bolt guns the gun par exellence.
Without much effort are 25 mm to 100 m standard with handload ammo or the ruag surplus. Feehand with sling! And the workmanship is beyond reproach.

tobnpr
August 10, 2012, 03:09 PM
The two primary flaws in the Mosin are that short & stubby straight bolt handle that's slower to acquire and provides much weaker leverage, and the extremely awkward safety.

Compounded by a long and mushy trigger, it does the basic functions of a battle rifle, but inefficiently.


Timney's trigger addresses both of those issues, beautifully. Mine has a 2 lb. trigger that breaks like glass, along with a "traditional" sear-block lever safety.

DPris
August 10, 2012, 03:16 PM
There are aftermarket improvements that can be made, but in as-issued form when comparing Mosins to Mausers, the Mauser is far superior.
Denis

emcon5
August 10, 2012, 03:58 PM
Funny thing about Mosin Triggers is the utter lack of consistency.

I have three Mosins, and one trigger is quite good. One is OK. One is horrible.

I have a friend with a M44 with a really excellent trigger.

All my Mauser triggers are quite serviceable, even though produced in four different countries.

44 AMP
August 10, 2012, 07:01 PM
Found a forming die to make 8mm brass out of 30-06 brass.

ok, but why? Unless you already have a stock of '06 brass you aren't going to use, or you enjoy trimming, just buy some commercial 8mm Mauser brass. The advantage is that it is headstamped 8mm, so you won't mix it up with '06 (or anything else in the same general size range), and if you buy new, you will get the longest possible case life.

Had to form some 7.7mmJap out of '06, and they worked, but when I found some new 7.7 brass, I jumped on it.

(I don't really like trimming ;))

The only drawback to commercial 8mm brass is the cost. But its not much more than more popular (non current military) calibers, and really, how much are you going to buy, anyway?

DunRanull
August 14, 2012, 11:29 AM
Have owned several Mausers over the years, all bone stock. K98k. Swede. Czech. Israeli. Several Yugos. All fired with surplus or new manufacture military ammo. In my experience, aside from the Swede 6.5 which is becoming incredibly expensive even from Privi.. my 24/47 straight-bolt Yugo (which arrived having been post ww2 refurbed and stored since) I say, the straight bolt 24/47 is the most accurate 8mm Mauser I have or have used. Used full power Yugo mil-surp, not the namby-pamby US-made 8mm. The Yugo surp you can consider corrosive so clean with warm soapy/ammonia water.
My straight bolt is so accurate that I am considering having a permanent receiver scope mount put on by a gunsmith, and having the bolt re-figured to accommodate clearance.
Sellier and Belloit makes good hunting ammo- 198 gr spitzer BT which work fine on minute of deer-chest. Speer still makes some 198 gr SBT for reloading. The 198gr bullet is what most 98's are sighted and barrel-twisted for. The somewhat stodgy rep the Mauser has compared to the '06 comes from low power US loads in frumpy bullet designs. 7.92mm Mauser was designed to kick butt over distance and it will if you care for the bore and what you feed it. IF you can find the green-primered Portuguese 8mm you are lucky.. hard to find lately but non-corr and accurate.
One other straight bolt is the Turk Mausers. Many of these rare rough but surprising shooters. Mine is a 195-something, kinda longish, kinda heavy.. shoots good altho inspection of parts shows the bolt to be of stamped M98 vintage WW1 surplused no doubt and other parts have other markings including Ancyra. Turk ammo in 154 gr used to be seriously old and cheap but havent seen any for some time. Romanian in 154 gr works well in them also.

waterboy68
August 14, 2012, 12:16 PM
Yep. Plenty of 06 brass in my house. Dont mind the little bit of work required to make them servicable in 8mm. Didn't want or need to buy any brass right now. ;) My experiance with mil surplus ammo in 8mm has been a crap shoot.

01SVTvert
August 14, 2012, 05:13 PM
Why not just buy a M44 or a M38? Both are well under your price and one with a good barrel will shoot well. Saves having to stock or reload another type of ammo too.

LOUD
August 14, 2012, 08:46 PM
Im with you on a Mauser , the only way I would try to talk you out of it, is because I love them and wish I could own them all! But I can tell you a mosin cant even begin to come even close to the precision of a Mauser . Its like comparing fine cutlery to a steel strap with a dull edge! And yes I do own and shoot both.........................LOUD

Mobuck
August 16, 2012, 05:56 AM
If you want a real Mauser carbine, expect to pay through the nose for a true South American cavalry carbine. Also expect harsh recoil with full load(not wimpy commercial USA) ammo.

TX Hunter
August 17, 2012, 08:35 PM
I would like to answer your question about converting 30 06 Brass to 8x57 Mauser Brass. It makes alot of sense, buying factory brass is expensive, also factory ammo is expensive, and sucks. 30 06 is very common, and alot of people own more than one Rifle. My Son and I both have 30 06 Rifles that we shoot and hunt with, also have 8MM Mausers. The Mausers get the hand me Down Brass from our 30 06s. I also have a friend that suprises me from time to time with big bags of 30 06 brass. I hope I have answered your question as to why someone would make this conversion. :)

DennisCA
August 17, 2012, 09:00 PM
IMHO - you can go wrong with a 24-47, it shoots a fairly common cartridge and they're reasonably priced.

44 AMP
August 18, 2012, 12:58 PM
Tx Hunter, I understand completely. If you have a source for cheap 06 brass, and you don't mind doing the work, it's the way to go. I have done it myself, for both 8mm and 7.7mm Jap.

My situation is different from yours and these days, when I can find it, I try to buy "original" brass. At the guns shows, its not significantly different in price from most fairly popular calibers. And if you think 8mm is expensive, try buying brass for a .375 H&H, or a .350 Rem Mag (if you can get it!)

I have 3 8mm Mausers, which, sadly, I don't shoot that much these days, so my stockpile of ammo is sufficient.

years ago, I bought 5 boxes of Rem 8mm Mauser, back when they were less than the cost of breakfast for the wife and I, each. A box a month from the local Bi-Mart. Its true that it is underpowered compared to European stuff, but its accurate, fairly soft recoil, and actually has enough power for my hunting needs. Plus it leaves that good R-P brass to reload when you are done. A couple of bags of brass from the gun shows, and I've got a few hundred cases, which will last me a long time. Heck, I've still got a few boxes of Herters 8mm bullets to use up!:D

The one drawback to forming your 8mm from 06 is the headstamps. Make sure you mark the boxes, cause just looking at the case heads won't tell you which round it is, and grabbing the wrong box would be a bad thing.

amx4080
August 19, 2012, 09:17 AM
I figure you all might know of one that is closer to what I'm looking for. Do the Yugos have decent bores on average? What is their stock precision and accuracy? Do they come with bayonets?

I currently own three Yogoslavian Mausers, M24, M24/47 and M48. While I do not have MOA numbers, they all do their part if I do mine and are on target as far as my eyes can see. All came with very good bores. Only the M48 was in cosmo, the other two I picked up from other collectors. Yes, they all had bayonets, but if one has all the accessories at this point is a hunt. I have bayonets for all of mine, they have slight differences but they interchange.

In addition to being reasonably priced (Yugo M48 prices (http://www.gunstockmarket.net/search.php?firearm=9&listings=Both&searchwords=M48&qstitle=Mauser Rifle: Yugo M48), you can find a few under $250 still), they have an interesting history as Branko Bogdanovic wrote about in Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles (http://www.amazon.com/Serbian-Yugoslav-Mauser-Rifles-Bogdanovic/dp/1882391357).

FC-Fan
August 20, 2012, 02:10 PM
Actually the most popular Mauser carbine: 98K S42 made by Mauser Oberndorfhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGSIO8oSzqU


In good condition not to get less than 1.000 € in germany.

Bigdog57
August 20, 2012, 02:49 PM
You don't need a 'forming die' to convert .30-06 to 8mm Mauser. The standard RCBS 8mm FL sizer die works plenty fine for my conversions. Use the money saved for bullets and powder.
On the average, my Mauser will outshoot my Mosins. But with my 55 year old eyes, I have scout-scoped two Mosin 91/30s. They show very good promise, with the later round-receiver showing less pickiness about which bullets it'll shoot well compared to the hex.
I will soon be scoping my Spanish M43, as it was bubba'd before I got it and has no 'collector value' to worry about. A Boyd's stock is in it's near future too. Trigger is fair, bore is very good.