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View Full Version : Why won't the major ammunition companies come out with 45-70 + P loads ?


WIN1886
August 2, 2012, 05:00 PM
Just wondering is all....I know that there are a lot of older designed rifles out their that are still being used but most modern 45-70 cal rifles like the Marlin 1895 , Winchester 1886 modern version , Ruger no. 1 , Winchester & Browning Hi Wall single shots , etc. can easily handle higher pressures and they could put warning labels against using the ammo in old trapdoors and such ! It be no different than other cal rifles or handguns that are either okay with +P ammo or not ! I'd also like to see more bullet weight options....some major ammo makers seem stuck on the 300 grain load which is fine but again more options would make the 45-70 more versatile and I think more popular ! Sorry about the rambling....I just like this cal. a lot and yes , the best ammo comes by handloading but I don't always have the time and you might need to pick up a box while on a hunting trip sometime ! ;) The specialized ammo makers offering hot 45-70 ammo is priced high so maybe more competition would help lower the price or at least offer more available options !

Brian Pfleuger
August 2, 2012, 05:02 PM
Liability if they make it, none if they don't, tiny niche market, easy choice.

WIN1886
August 2, 2012, 05:54 PM
No doubt , but I still think this is sad.....most hunters and target shooters at least that I know are pretty educated about their firearm selection and know the limits of each ! It is very doubtful that a hunter selecting a 45-70 rifle will buy an old civil war era trapdoor over a Marlin 1895 or other modern version rifle for an upcoming moose hunt that wants to shoot hot loads or at least have the option to ! Then again I'm sure there are a number of trapdoor owners that love the mild loads ( like I do for the most part) or even load up only with blackpowder for a more nostalgia effect ! I give most hunters and shooters the benefit of the doubt of knowing the limits of their firearms but I guess the smallest % of those that don't is very possible but not unlike other firearms that are not designed for +P loads ! I don't blame the major companies for having liability worries but it would be a nice option for the modern hunter !

mete
August 2, 2012, 06:08 PM
People don't read warning labels or anything else ! That's always been the case.
You can go to premium bullet loads like the Win 300 gr Nosler Partition or the Corbon DPX 300. Buffalo Bore and Garrett make good rounds but I don't know the price.
What are you hunting and at what range ? Do you really need hot loads ? I found the 300 factory loads too soft for my taste so I use the Win NP -much better. I hunt fairly close but it should be good for out to 200 yds for deer or black bear.

PawPaw
August 2, 2012, 06:10 PM
I've got three different loads that I use for my .45-70s. One, a black powder load I shoot in my Sharps. Another load I have duplicates the ballistics and pressures of the BP load, but with smokeless, then I've got a load that uses 4895 and a 405 cast bullet that will rattle your teeth. I don't load anything to Ruger #1 pressures, so that would be a fourth load.

If the factories started loading a hot .45-70 load, some jazzbo would drop it into his trapdoor and blow chunks of steel all over the line. While I agree with Win1886 that most of us are rational in our practices, there are enough idiots out there, and enough un-educated gunners to make life interesting for the rest of us. The factories have decided, rightfully, to make ammo that will work in any gun in that caliber, and that limits them to pressures that most of us routinely surpass in good rifles with modern steels.

WIN1886
August 2, 2012, 06:55 PM
The whitetail deer I have harvested so far with my 45-70 cal rifles has been done with mild factory loads of either 300 gr or 405 gr bullet weight ! All of them were put down with one shot and most do not go far or have dropped right at the point of impact ! I typically hunt in forest areas where shots are normally less than 75 yards ! I am very satisfied with the loads I use...however , having more options would be fun and maybe necessary depending on what your game is or where you are hunting ! I appreciate the feedback...it just puzzles me that the major ammo co. have not offered +P 45-70 loads by now but liability trumps ....its all good !

Brian Pfleuger
August 2, 2012, 07:05 PM
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.

They're like, "Hey, let's build this hot 45-70 +p round!" and the dude across the table is like, "Sweet! What's the demographic!" and the 3rd Geeky Beancounter guy goes, "Well, there's like.... Those 5 dudes on The Firing Line that would use it...":D;)

Kreyzhorse
August 2, 2012, 07:26 PM
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.

They're like, "Hey, let's build this hot 45-70 +p round!" and the dude across the table is like, "Sweet! What's the demographic!" and the 3rd Geeky Beancounter guy goes, "Well, there's like.... Those 5 dudes on The Firing Line that would use it..."


I agree with Peetza on this on. If there was enough demand, the big ammo makers would offer up +P loads. If liability was to soley blame, the small companies wouldn't make them either.

Make that 6 dudes by the way.....

Buzzcook
August 2, 2012, 09:02 PM
Buffalo Bore has some hot .45-70. They even call it "magnum".

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=2

m&p45acp10+1
August 2, 2012, 09:25 PM
Buzz beat me to the punch on that one. I have a box of brass that a guy left at the range. They are head stamped as .45-70 Magnum.

They offer a couple of bullet weights. I will try to dig the box out later. It is time to crash right now for me. 3 am comes early in the morning.

Scorch
August 3, 2012, 03:47 AM
There's a little group called SAAMI that sets pressure standards for the small arms and ammunition industry, and all industry members have agreed to accept those standards and work within them. SAAMI says that .45-70 Government ammo should be loaded so as not to exceed 28,000 psi (most factory .45-70 ammo is loaded to much lower pressure than that), gunmakers says OK, and design rifles with those pressure limits in mind. So, you want 42,000 psi .45-70 ammo, you make it. If your gun goes in 150 different directions when you fire it, the manufacturer says "That's too bad, hows about you buy another rifle?".

If, on the other hand, SAAMI said its OK to produce factory ammo to a higher specified pressure, all those older guns produced for lower pressure ammo just became a liability issue. Liability issues make the lawyers rich, not the gunmakers. So gunmakers produce firearms chambered for a cartridge called the .458 Winchester Magnum for those enthusiasts who want a bigger bang.

WV_gunner
August 3, 2012, 05:46 AM
Buffalo Bore makes hot loads only meant for modern made guns.

Another stout gun that can handle loads that wasn't mentioned is H&R/New England rifles. I own one, bought it used for $200.

jmr40
August 3, 2012, 08:26 AM
They did, it is called the 450 Marlin. The 450 is simply a hot loaded 45-70 that is designed so it won't fit into guns not up to the higher pressures.

Keg
August 3, 2012, 08:57 AM
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.



Actually...the 45-70 is more popular today than ever.... I believe liability issues are the cause....Buffalo Bore and others list certain guns to fire their ammo.....

Mike Irwin
August 3, 2012, 09:05 AM
I don't see why a .45-70 +P load would be any more of a liability than, say, a .38 Super +P or a .38 Special +P or +P+.

Tons of older guns out there that will chamber those rounds but in which it could be an unsafe situation.

Remember when Winchester brought out the .375 Winchester? It would handily fit into older guns chambered for .38-55.

Apparently not too many fears of liability there.

Keg
August 3, 2012, 09:19 AM
Mike..I don't hear of 38's blowing apart with plus P loads..and even tho a 375 win may chamber in a 38-55..it is not actually chambered for that round....

Trapdoors are actually chambered for the 45-70 and I understand it may not be pretty if U fire a hot round from one....

BlueTrain
August 3, 2012, 09:34 AM
The range where I used to shoot has a display cabinet of revolvers, all .38s I'm sure, that were blown up. But I can't tell you anything about the loads they were using. I also understand there are no standards for a +P+ load. It's "off the charts." I also had the impression that all .38 Supers were +P. The non-+P is merely a .38 ACP. But I also understand that some do load .38 Supers "hot."

I've owned three .45-70 rifles and the first one was an H&R trapdoor reproduction. The steel may or may not have been better than an original but the design was the same. But I thought the regular everyday load for the .45-70 was enough. When I went to buy my next .45-70, which was a Ruger No. 1, the shop also had one in .458 magnum. If I'd wanted more than a .45-70, I could have went home with that one. They had to order the .45-70.

Even though I like the round, I really don't believe it's all that popular.

aarondhgraham
August 3, 2012, 09:38 AM
It is very doubtful that a hunter selecting a 45-70 rifle will buy an old civil war era trapdoor...

Civil War era trapdoor?

The Civil War went until 1873?

There's your reason right there. ;)

Aarond

.

Keg
August 3, 2012, 10:05 AM
I don't know about other places..but here in TX..the 45-70 is very popular....Mainly in Marlin lever actions....I know of a number of hunters that actively hunt with them....I think it has a lot to do with the hog problems we have here....Big bullets and multiple rounds make a fun combination for hogs....(nuthin like hearin a loud whack! on a big boar)

oneoldsap
August 3, 2012, 10:21 AM
You answered your own question in your first sentence !

Brian Pfleuger
August 3, 2012, 10:24 AM
I don't see why a .45-70 +P load would be any more of a liability than, say, a .38 Super +P or a .38 Special +P or +P+.

Tons of older guns out there that will chamber those rounds but in which it could be an unsafe situation.

Remember when Winchester brought out the .375 Winchester? It would handily fit into older guns chambered for .38-55.

Apparently not too many fears of liability there.

I'm sure that's true but there's got to be SOME level of liability concern in today's society. My guess is that the market is large enough to off-set the liability concern with those rounds but they conclude that it's not with the 45-70.

I could be wrong, I thought I was once, but I was mistaken.:D

Keg
August 3, 2012, 10:49 AM
Brian..the 45-70 ammo that is out there is gonna sell no matter...hot or not....So the major ammo manufacturers still make money and don't worry about the liability issue....Those of us that want it hotter will reload or buy from BB..etc....(thats OK by me..let the smaller guys make money too)

Mike Irwin
August 3, 2012, 02:07 PM
I've seen two old .38 revolvers that were splayed open when fired with .38 Spl. +P+.

"and even tho a 375 win may chamber in a 38-55..it is not actually chambered for that round...."

True, but as so many courts in the US have so eloquently stated with numerous liability holdings, a consumers crass stupidity is no bar to a manufacturer having to dig very deeply into their corporate pockets.

But, that said, I truly suspect that it has less to do with fear of liability and a lot more to do with the fact that as of a few years ago the .45-70 was pretty close to the bottom third of sales lists for ammunition and reloading dies sold.

Not great, but enough to keep it financially viable.

taylorce1
August 3, 2012, 02:38 PM
Just buy rifles in .450 Marlin then you'll have your +P .45-70. If enough people want it you might even resurrect the cartridge and rifles chambered for it. The popularity of the .45-70 killed the .450 Marlin, and if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the .45-70 as well.

Keg
August 3, 2012, 03:08 PM
The popularity of the .45-70 killed the .450 Marlin, and if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the .45-70 as well.


taylorce....Amen brother....I buy hot 45-70 ammo for my 2 Marlins from a fella out of Big D..cheaper than BB and gets the job done....

Kreyzhorse
August 3, 2012, 06:44 PM
Keg - just curious, but do you have velocity data on those hot loaded 45-70s? Looks like did a number on your hog.

I've hunted whitetail with standard 45-70 loads but have always wanted to try something a bit hotter.

Gunplummer
August 3, 2012, 09:35 PM
I was waiting for someone to remember the 450 Marlin. That is exactly what it was designed as, a hot 45-70. The original 45-70 case is not up to the pressure.

WIN1886
August 4, 2012, 05:30 AM
From a bit of research and some info already mentioned here , I found the 450 Marlin is factory loaded with average max pressure of 43500 psi and the 45-70 is kept below 28000 psi for most factory loads ! I'd be curious to hear what pressures Buffalo Bore and Garrett 45-70 ammo is loaded to ? Loading data for the Ruger No 1 45-70 is approaching 50000 psi from what I have read !

wpsdlrg
August 4, 2012, 07:39 AM
Because sooner or later, some DOLT would shove one into a trap-door Springfield.....and blow himself up. Then, he'd sue the ammo company over the "defective" ammo.

It is as simple as that.

People do some amazingly STUPID things regarding guns. Always bear in mind, MOST people are not "gun enthusiasts"......and know very little about them. Even lots of shooters are woefully ignorant. Sad but true.

taylorce1
August 4, 2012, 08:26 AM
From a bit of research and some info already mentioned here , I found the 450 Marlin is factory loaded with average max pressure of 43500 psi and the 45-70 is kept below 28000 psi for most factory loads ! I'd be curious to hear what pressures Buffalo Bore and Garrett 45-70 ammo is loaded to ? Loading data for the Ruger No 1 45-70 is approaching 50000 psi from what I have read !

You could look it up just as easily, Buffalo Bore rounds meet or exceed .450 Marlin performance. I haven't looked up Garrett ammunition before. If you really want a cool repeater that will handle #1 pressures for shooting the .45-70 check gunbroker for a Siamese Mauser that has been converted to it. You should be able to wring out performance close to .458 Win Mag levels, but that takes all the fun out of shooting the .45-70 IMO.

Keg
August 4, 2012, 09:07 AM
KreyZ....I will get that info to U....As far as doin a number on that hog..that shot could have been most any centerfire caliber and been the same result....

U definitely know when U are shooting Buffalo Bore compared to the other
reduced loads....

Ridgerunner665
August 4, 2012, 03:35 PM
Garrett's ammo is loaded to 35,000 psi...the info is on his website. He used to load it to 40k psi (which is safe to do in my experience) but chose to lower it for a variety of reasons.

There are a lot of myths and misconceptions about +P 45-70 loads...I've fired a good many rounds of them loaded to 40k psi and above...in the proper rifle, they are perfectly safe.

DFrame
August 4, 2012, 04:05 PM
+P type loads are generally not manufactured for two reasons. There are still thousands of 100+ year old rifles out there chambered for the round and inevitably some fool would shoot some in a trapdoor.
The other reason is such loads are unnecessary unless you are hunting somethng like Elephant. The standard 45/70 is more than enough for any North American game and hot rodding it only produces painful recoil.

Scorch
August 4, 2012, 08:27 PM
he'd sue the ammo company over the "defective" ammo.
It is as simple as that.
People do some amazingly STUPID things regarding guns.
Absolutely agree. Just the other day on this site, there was a gentleman who had purchased a Spanish 1916 short rifle and did not know what it was chambered for. A friend told him it was a 308, so he chambered a 308 Winchester cartridge (had to force it to close, according to his post) and fired it. Couldn't get it open, so it went to the smith. Turned out it was 7X57. WOW!!!:eek:

When I worked as a smith in NV, a customer walked in with an otherwise almost new Python that had a badly sprung frame. Wanted to know what was wrong with it. When we asked what ammo he had been shooting, he told us they were his reloads, 4227 and a 158 gr JHP forced down and crimped. We took some of the loads apart, and the cartridges were overloaded with 50% too much powder! The guy didn't know he was supposed to only put a certain amount of powder into the case, he just filled 'er up!!

A customer walked in and bought a box of Norma factory 308 Winchester ammo for his rifle. He came back really upset, had some short words inserted into his conversation about the ammo not working, and all because his friend had told him to buy Norma ammo. Asked to see the rifle, it was a Schulz & Larsen in 308 Norma Magnum. We explained the situation to him as well as we could and calmed him down. Calmed him down until he found out how much 308 Norma Magnum ammo would cost. He left the ammo and walked out of the store.

So yes, people do stupid things. That's why the factory ammo for a 45-70 is so wimpy.

FloridaVeteran
August 4, 2012, 09:36 PM
These are more +P than I'd ever want to shoot in .45-70: Garrett's 500gr. Hornady copper-clad steel-jacketed flatnose solids at 1530 fps, or their 540gr. SuperHardCast Hammerhead at 1550fps.

The 500's box says, "Fire only in Marlins and Winchesters." The 540's box says, "Fire only in Marlin rifles built since 1998."

www.garrettcartridges.com has a lot of interesting information about the caliber and their loads, including a great piece on penetration relative to velocity and bullet weight.

I was all set to to be offended, relative to my Ruger No.1, but I read on their site or somewhere else that hunting dangerous-game with a No.1 is recommended against because of the inability to get off a rapid second shot.

Keg
August 5, 2012, 07:05 AM
KreyZ...

sc928porsche
August 5, 2012, 11:24 AM
If you want 45-70+P, then reload.

WIN1886
August 5, 2012, 05:31 PM
I do reload.... my warm load is a Hornady 350 gr FP pushed out the barrel with a good charge of IMR 4198 in my Ruger No. 1 rifle ! My mild lever action load is a 400 gr hardcast FP bullet pushed by a charge of SR4759 powder ! Most game I've harvested with the 45-70 cal. has been with factory loaded 300 gr ammo though, so far anyway !

m&p45acp10+1
August 5, 2012, 06:58 PM
I have in front of me a box of 45-70 Magnum by Buffalo Bore. It has a warning label that reads:

Warning!

USE THIS AMUNITION IN FIREARMS THAT ARE IN GOOD CONDITION, AND ORIGINALY CHAMBERED FOR THIS CARTRIDGE.

Writen in all caps as it appears on the box. The warning part is three times larger than the following script.

Item 8A 430 Gr. L.FN-GC (1925 F.PS/3537 ft. lbs.)
Item 8B 405 Gr J.F.N (200 F.P.S./3597 ft. lbs.)
Item 8C 350 Gr J.F.N (2150 F.P.S./2591 ft/lbs)
Item 8D 500 Gr F.MJ.F.N (1650 F.P.S./ 2931 ft lbs)
Item 8E 300 Gr. J.F.N (2350 F.P.S./3676 ft. lbs.)

All are head stamped Lever Gun 45-70 Mag

The guy that gave me the brass was shooting them out of a Marlin Guide Gun if I rember correctly. He said recoil was stout to say the least. The ones he shot were 350 grain JFN.

FloridaVeteran
August 5, 2012, 11:58 PM
Thought I posted a reply that reloading is the way to go. Anyway, to answer the OPs original question and not being a representative of a major ammo company, I'd say that the demand for such high-performance .45-70 loads isn't worth their while to produce.

Since smaller outfits like Buffalo and Garrett produce what you want, the credible amount of demand for those loads is served well enough. At least, that's my best guess.

Hope you use a lead-sled, or at least a newfangled slip-on recoil pad when you try the big beasts out. The only event in which I would be very happy to fire a round of that power is at a trophy Cape Buffalo, and that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime short of winning the lottery. But the thread is about you, OP, not me, so I hope you find the round that suits you and that you bag a trophy that your grandchildren will marvel about long after you are gone. What better memories are there?

BlueTrain
August 6, 2012, 05:54 AM
Technically, there is no such thing as a .45-70 +P, That is to say, the SAAMI does not recognize such a thing and they are the only ones here who set the standards, which, by the way, are entirely voluntary. In other words, you can do anything you want and call it anything you want, and you won't hear from them.

According to them, the average copper units of pressure for a .45-70 is 28,000. A .458 magnum is 53,000 and there are some that are even higher. But the only rifle cartridge given a +P specification is the .257 Roberts. A .30-06 Springfield, as they call it, is at 50,000 but the .308 is 52,000.

Among handgun cartridges, there are +P listings for 9mm, .38 special and believe it or not, .45 automatic. The .38 Super is listed only as +P, which I had guessed at earlier. They do not recognize +P+ as a standard pressure.

For some reason I didn't see a listing for .450 Marlin. They also do not define magnum, either, and some very high pressure cartridges do not use that name.

Kreyzhorse
August 6, 2012, 09:01 AM
Thanks for posting Keg. Those look just hot enough without going over the top. Price is excellent too.

Keg
August 6, 2012, 11:06 AM
KreyZ...I actually like the BB ammo better..but costs twice as much...

Kreyzhorse
August 6, 2012, 08:10 PM
I understand that Keg. I've been close to buying BB a few times but could never justify the price.

WIN1886
August 7, 2012, 05:10 PM
This is my point...if major ammunition companies offered 45-70 + P ammo loaded to reasonable pressures for most modern rifles (say no more than 35000 psi) , I think the prices could be more competitive and drop in price compared to specialized ammunition ! Also, more offerings in different bullet weights would be nice as well from the major ammo makers ! However , due to the lack of interest and liability issues this is but a pipe dream so reloading is the best solution and kind of fun at that....but in a pinch it would be nice !

FloridaVeteran
August 8, 2012, 12:00 AM
This might get me flamed, since I am a new member of the forum, but how can the cost-per-round matter when we are talking about game-hunting rounds that will shove our butts into the next county when we fire them? Other than sighting-in, nobody I know fires this ammunition for the fun of it. I spent a long time in Africa. Best I recall, when you go on a hunt there (and because of the gun/ammo control laws that we don't want here), you purchase all of your ammo from your camp/safari/guide. It starts at $5.00 a cartridge and goes up to $12.00-15.00 in a hurry, especially if you use a double gun and shoulder-busters like .600 Nitro.

This isn't target ammo. It shouldn't be expected to cost like target ammo.

And if you spend $15.00 per round on a hunt in which you bag a trophy of any kind, how much does that $150.00 rally matter?

Flame away.

Keg
August 8, 2012, 02:32 AM
Flo..Vet....I kinda understand what U mean....I shoot a lot of ammo each year....Most of it hunting....I hunt hogs and coyotes year round..and we have a lot of em....One fella on our lease has dispatched 29 hogs so far..since the first of the year.....This is not counting the misses or ones that were gut shot and ran off...I have been very busy and only shot 7...It is a down year for me..but I expect things to pick up....It could get into some money if I only used the 45-70 with Buffalo Bore ammo....I also hunt with a 30-06 and 308....Remington corelocks in the 308..It is deadly and ammo is cheap....
Maybe I'm just a little bit cheap...but these are just hogs..not African game....I would be more particular if I were hunting there....I like the 45-70 because it is a lever action and I like the thought of a big bullet slappin a big ole boar....

impalacustom
August 8, 2012, 06:03 AM
USE THIS AMUNITION IN FIREARMS THAT ARE IN GOOD CONDITION, AND ORIGINALY CHAMBERED FOR THIS CARTRIDGE. All are head stamped Lever Gun 45-70 Mag

Just exactly who makes a 45-70 Mag and if they are talking about a regular 45-70, I wonder if they will replace the hammer and firing pin and pay the doctor bills for someone shooting that out of an 1885 with the BP firing pin.

thallub
August 8, 2012, 06:06 AM
Because sooner or later, some DOLT would shove one into a trap-door Springfield.....and blow himself up. Then, he'd sue the ammo company over the "defective" ammo.

Bingo!!
Winchester used to manufacture high velocity ammo in calibers .38-40 and .44-40 for their model 1892 rifle. There were warnings on the boxes against using that ammo in model 1873 rifles and revolvers. People blew their rifles and pistols up, got injured and sued. Warning labels mean nothing to shooters who don't read warning labels.

About 50 years ago several shooters told an acquaintance not to use Winchester high velocity ammo in his model 1873 rifle. He blew up the gun and was blinded in his right eye.

akguy1985
August 8, 2012, 06:21 AM
personally i think they dont load 45-70 ammo hot for two reasons: 1. liability and 2. SAAMI, somebody brought it up earlied in the thread that they set the standards for cartridge pressures.

WIN1886
August 8, 2012, 07:35 AM
I'm not talking safari loads.....just a little more enhanced loads that are suitable for just about every modern rifle made and not civil war relics ! Yes , they are hunting loads that are hopefully affordable for most to acquire even for mere black bear , moose , hog , elk , or white tail deer ! So has Garrett and Buffalo Bore had a lot of trouble with folks shooting their hotter ammo in old trapdoors ? :confused: I shoot mostly mild handloads for target practice and fun but will also practice with loads I want to hunt with before the season starts!

chewie146
August 8, 2012, 09:37 AM
Ok, I'll bite. What are you going to do with that hot .45-70 in the lower 48 that can't be done with a standard pressure .45-70? If you're looking for a round for grizz or brown bear protection, buffalo bore delivers. How many people really shoot .45-70 a lot? Most that do shoot "bunny farts" rather than the raging magnums. I've loaded both, and I can tell you which one is more fun. The major manufacturers won't do it because the cost-benefits won't add up. Most people who know what buffalo bore does know what their rifle is capable of. If you can buy it at wal-mart, any idiot with granddaddy's ole smokepole will stuff it in there. Basically, the small profit they make off of responsible shooters won't outweigh the lawsuits from people who manufactured pipe bombs out of what used to be a Springfield.

WIN1886
August 8, 2012, 10:19 AM
How many people really shoot a 45-70 alot....funny you should ask ! :)

Getting back to the fun of shooting...two of the loads shown are above the standard pressures of the 45-70 and easy to manage especially in hunting conditions ! Anyway, its all about having fun and keeping safe....I guess I'll just keep rolling my own hotter loads !

44 AMP
August 9, 2012, 09:13 PM
Twice in this thread has "civil war" and .45-70 been mentioned together, and they just don't fit together. "Indian wars" and .45-70 fit.

I've known a number of folks over the years that shot .45-70s. Trapdoors, Sharps, Winchesters, Marlins, Rugers, and Mausers. Have a Ruger (no.3), and a T/C Contender in .45-70 (and no, I don't shoot the same (heavy)loads in both). Also had a Marlin and a Mauser, now traded as excess to my needs.

Everyone I know who is serious about shooting their .45-70 handloads. And that is the base reason I think you don't see hot +p loads from the major ammo companies. Its a niche market, and smaller ammo companies have already pretty well filled the niche.

Also, there isn't anything regularly hunted in the continental US that a "standard" (black powder velocities) .45-70 load won't kill DRT. Warm it up a little bit, in a suitable rifle, and it works just as well. Might even work a little bit better, but dead is dead.

I've pushed 350gr to 2200fps in my little Ruger. Hits hard on both ends! A 400gr at 1800fps does too. But a factory 405gr at 1300 drops deer right there as well, if you do your part.

You can't push anything fast enough to make the .45-70 a really flat shooter, so for long range, you just have to learn the drop. And if you can learn it for a +p load, you can learn it for a standard load as well. Speed is nice, but the .45-70's forte is mass. 95% of my shooting the .45-70 is with standard velocity handloads. I save the real thumpers for when they are most useful, and that's a rare thing in my life these days.

Not saying Buffalo bore and Garrett don't make some good stuff, but my needs are fully met by what I handload, and much, much cheaper too!

BlueTrain
August 10, 2012, 05:38 AM
One could just as easily get a .458 Winchester Magnum and load it down as easily as loading up a .45-70. Of course, your choice of rifles won't be the same, though the Ruger No. 1 is available in both. It isn't an inexpensive rifle, though.

There is frequent mention here of the old Trapdoor Springfield. I had one of the H&R reproduction models. Because of the design, it was probably no stronger than one made 90 years earlier. But what about the other older rifles that are still available. I think Sharps are available, probably Rolling Blocks and who knows what else. Someone even had a double-barrel rifle in .45-70, too, at least for a while. How do those other not-quite-modern rifles fit in the strength department?

WIN1886
August 10, 2012, 06:48 AM
Good call on the history of the 45-70-405....it was produced by Springfield Armory in 1873 for their trapdoor model well after the civil war ! The 50-70 government was produced prior to the 45-70 in 1866 !