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View Full Version : A feather in Remington's cap!


Bart B.
July 30, 2012, 01:53 PM
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/usamu-teams-set-1k-records-at-interservice-championships/

10-96
July 30, 2012, 02:15 PM
Wow, did you read on about the new record setting score??? That's like a precision machine shooting a precision machine.

berettaprofessor
July 30, 2012, 03:09 PM
Did you notice the record-setting team had two females? And that they both posted perfect scores. It was two male shooters who dropped points. So much for equality :)

Scorch
July 31, 2012, 02:10 AM
Don't let the Savage guys hear about this, or we will never hear the end of it.;)

Bart B.
July 31, 2012, 05:33 AM
berettaprofessor comments:Did you notice the record-setting team had two females? And that they both posted perfect scores. It was two male shooters who dropped points. So much for equality.It's not equality in Sherri's case, it's the gene pool and DNA chain. Plus the skills and knowledge passed on and from her Mom, sister and stepdad.

Sherri won the Nationals recently setting a record score dropping only 4 points out of 2400. Her Mom's won the Nationals, too. Her sister Michelle won the World Long Range Championships a few years ago. All three of these women hold several National records in high power competition.

Sherri's stepdad's won the Nationals 6 times and also holds and has held many National records.

olddav
July 31, 2012, 07:47 AM
Other than the rounds fired, what does that have to do with Remington?
Did I miss something?

Bart B.
July 31, 2012, 08:51 AM
Yes, OldDav, you missed the point that it was about equality between the sexes as mentioned in berettaprofessor's earlier post.

tobnpr
July 31, 2012, 09:44 AM
Interesting long range caliber, I was not familiar with it...
Less powder than the WSM, and similar velocities...should be better for barrel life. How much, I wonder...

old roper
July 31, 2012, 11:15 AM
here is clip from what BB posted

“Any Sights / Any Rifle” competition using bolt guns chambered for the 7mm Remington Short-Action Ultra-Magnum (RSAUM), and fitted with Nightforce scopes. Coach Praslick says the USAMU is very pleased with the performance of the 7mm RSAUM: “Our 7mms can deliver very tight vertical spreads at 1000 yards.” Praslick also praised the work of USAMU armorers who build the rifles and load the ammo for USAMU teams: “We’ve got world-class gunsmiths. That’s our advantage. All the guns are tested at distance with match ammunition. We can count on the guns and the ammo to perform shot after shot. This is a big confidence builder for our USAMU shooters.”

When you have rifles build like the above and custom ammo and have a choice of shooters (Army supply's them) or they may of recruited them also unlimited funding (taxpayer's) what does caliber have to do with it.

tobnpr
July 31, 2012, 02:25 PM
Granted, caliber is not the overriding consideration.
But certainly relevant.

Otherwise, why not just shoot .308...

Husqvarna
July 31, 2012, 02:31 PM
the second part about service rifle was also super impressive, iron sight, same distance? all within MOA!

And shooting in general is very equal, probably just social unequality that has held women back, the olympic shooting were coed before, and I believe the olympic skeet record is held by a female,

Brian Pfleuger
July 31, 2012, 02:38 PM
Sales of 7mmSAUM guns will be up. ;)

Bart B.
July 31, 2012, 02:57 PM
Husqvarna mentions:the second part about service rifle was also super impressive, iron sight, same distance? all within MOA!Note the service rifles put about half as many shots inside the 10-inch X-ring on that 1000 yard target. And the scoped bolt guns dropped only 3 points while the service rifles dropped 46. Some of the service rifles probably put a shot or two in the 8-ring which extends from 33 inches to 44 inches in diameter; the 9-ring goes from 20 inches out to 30 inches diameter. It's hard to get exactly the same sight alignment and sight picture using a post front sight and an aperture rear for each and every shot. And those service rifles have at least a 4.5 pound trigger while the bolt guns can have any safe pull weight; they're usually in the 3 to 5 ounce range.

mrawesome22
July 31, 2012, 04:10 PM
Only the women are smiling in the pic.

sudo apt-get update

30Cal
July 31, 2012, 08:20 PM
It's the archer, not the arrow. Also helps that they shoot year round.

Bart B.
August 1, 2012, 07:26 AM
tobnpr comments:Interesting long range caliber, I was not familiar with it...Less powder than the WSM, and similar velocities...should be better for barrel life. How much, I wonder...I doubt barrel life will be any different; it burns the same amount of powder per shot.

Bart B.
August 1, 2012, 07:52 AM
30Cal believes:It's the archer, not the arrow. Also helps that they shoot year round.The US Army Rifle Team feels it's the arrow. Here's why.

Not too many years ago, there was an increase in the number of 7.62 NATO chambered Garands on the firing line at the Nationals' 1000 yard matches. And a few active duty and retired US Navy team members were shooting them posting higher scores than what the 5.56 NATO round did. Those converted Garands were used to win some 1000 yard matches at the Nationals. And reviewing scores shot with both M1's and M1A's and the M16 variants, the 22 caliber rounds didn't fare as well as the 30 caliber ones at long range.

So, the US Army Marksmanship Unit got fed up with the poor performance of the best M16 variants' 22 caliber pipsqueak round at 1000 yards. They were able to convince the NRA to allow the AR-10 rifle to be designated a service rifle and it's now covered in the NRA High Power Rule Book. The USAMU didn't have any more M14NM's worth rebuilding that would shoot as accurate as the AR-10. And they were sick and tired of old Garands kicking the butts of their new-fangled mouse guns.

Note that NRA rules state the AR-10's barrel length has to be 20 inches long. Which, to me, means the USAMU's using loads with higher peak pressures than SAAMI or MIL SPEC standards say. Recent information indicates that approximately 45 gr. of Varget is being used with the Berger 185 LR gr. bullets out of a 1:10″ twist barrel. The match results indicate this load is very accurate and remains supersonic at 1000 yards out of AMU prepared AR 10 rifles. While suitable for limited military match use this load is far too hot for general service adoption. Note that 45 grains of Varget is about the norm maximum load for the 155-gr. Palma bullet in the .308 Win. case.

The US military rifle teams have been using ammo in competition producing proof-test peak pressures in the 7.62 NATO round at about 65,000 CUP (81,000 PSI) since the 1960's, so this ain't anything new. M14 and M1 rifles handle these pressures very well. . . .if their op rod's bent and fit to tight specs in each rifle's gas system.

tobnpr
August 1, 2012, 03:52 PM
According to this, more efficient than the WSM, and can burn less powder for equivalent velocity;

http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html#7SAUM

Case Efficiency, Charge Weight and Barrel Life
The 7mm SAUM case holds 7.4 grains less powder than does the 7mm WSM, but the 7mm SAUM has proven to be more efficient than Winchester's short magnum. This means you can almost match the velocities of the 7mm WSM (with the same bullets) using slightly less powder. Using identical powders and the same bullets, Steven Ikeda has found that his 7mm SAUM can match 7mm WSM "book load" velocities with about 7% less powder. In all respects, that's a good thing. Short Magnums are "overbore" cases with notoriously short barrel lives. Burning less powder should give the 7mm SAUM a barrel-life advantage over the 7mm WSM, and of course, the SAUM costs a bit less to feed. Plus powder charge weight does figure into felt recoil, so a 7mm SAUM will exhibit slightly less recoil than a 7mm WSM running the same bullet at the same speed.

Ideal Tool
August 2, 2012, 12:34 AM
"they were sick and tired of old Garands kicking the butt of their new-fangled mouse guns"... Ah yes history repeats itself! In 1879, when the British adopted the new Martini-Henry .577/.450 rifle, they soon found that the older .577 Snider was more accurate at long range..caused somewhat of a scandle in the government.
When the U.S. army adopted the new .30-03..they found that the older
.30-40 Krag beat them at long range. Their answer? The krag was not permitted to compete against the new Springfield. It wasn't until the 06' round came out that the Krags accuracy was bettered. The more things change..the more they stay the same!

Bart B.
August 5, 2012, 07:38 AM
Ideal Tool mentions:When the U.S. army adopted the new .30-03..they found that the older .30-40 Krag beat them at long range. Their answer? The krag was not permitted to compete against the new Springfield. It wasn't until the 06' round came out that the Krags accuracy was bettered.At the 1902 Palma Matches in Canada, the US Palma Team had 6 members using the .30-40 Krag and 2 using prototype 30 caliber rifles based on the Mauser 98 action design (royalties were paid to Mauser). It shot 220-gr. 30 caliber bullets out at 2300 fps and later would be dubbed the M1903 and the cartridge was the .30-03. They didn't shoot as accurate as the Krags and the US team lost the match. The team from Great Britain won the match with their .303's.

In 1903, the United States team again used the Krag-Jorgensen in the Palma Matches in Great Britian, but with different bore dimensions. The rifles were barreled by legendary persnickety gunsmith Harry Pope and used a rifling twist and bore configuration that was not the same as the issue rifle. As a result, although the United States bested the Brits by a 15 point margin, the match victory was under a shadow because the United States used rifles that did not meet service rifle specifications. Not wishing to damage the reputation of the match the United States returned the Palma Trophy to Great Britain. The British refused to claim a victory, and simply held it until the next Palma.

The .30-40 Krag with standard service barrels was again used by the US Palma Team to win the 1907 Palma match held in Canada; they were more accurate than what any of the M1903's .30-06's could produce at the time. It wasn't until 1912 that the US Palma Team used M1903's with the .30-06 cartridge.

ROGER4314
August 5, 2012, 09:40 AM
Those scores simply blow me away at 1000 yards. I never shot at 1000 but have competed for years at 600 from prone with service rifles and match rifles.

200-10X. That means the shooter kept all rounds within the ten ring and half of those stayed in the X ring. At 1000, that makes me gasp! WOW....that's amazing!

They get a big "thumbs up" from me!

Flash

Bart B.
August 5, 2012, 11:09 AM
Now here's the rest of the story. . . . . .

Those service rifles are as accurate a record setting benchrest rifles used at 1000 yards. Able to keep all fired shots inside 7 inches at 1000 when properly tested.

Here's some reasons why they sometimes shoot inside 20 inches at 1000 off the shoulder:

* First, the best prone competitors (smallbore, high power, etc) can hold about 6 or 7 inches on paper slung up in prone when the wind's calm. Their aiming point bounces up and down with some sideways movement 'cause their heart's pumping blood into their muscles. They try to get their shots off inside a 5 inch circle at 36,000 inches; 1/2 MOA; most will be called as such but the others are sometimes at the far edge of that aiming area.

* Second, nobody shoulders a rifle with the same exacdt pressure against their body with arms holding it the same way for every shot. The tiny variables cause the rifle's recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel to move the bore axis off the point of aim a bit different for each shot when the primer detonated. Folks who are the most repeatable doing this typically shoot the best scores. But this causes an extra 1/4 to 1/2 MOA increase in the group size they can shoot.

* Third, most of their wide shots are horizontal ones. It's difficult to estimate windage corrections for a change in cross wind; with faster winds it's harder. And if an exact correction is made but the wind speed changes after the bullet's left and before it goes theough the paper, it's gonna be a wide shot. Good shooters try to keep impact a bit into the wind as gusts cause more problems that let ups; their errors have more 10-ring spacefor the bullet to fall in. A half mph of cross wind gust blows those bullets up to about 5 inches at 1000 yards.

* Fourth, getting a service rifle's post front sight alignment perfect with the rear sight's hard to do, they're not going to end up pointing the barrel exactly perfectly for each shot like scope's do. That adds another 1/8 to 1/4 MOA to the group fired.

So anytime someone shooting prone putting all their shots inside 20 inches and half of them in 10 inches, they usually sit on top of the mountain of scores fired. The national record with sevice rifle in a 1000 yard individual match is, I think, 200-14X.

ROGER4314
August 5, 2012, 02:07 PM
I was pretty successful as a match shooter but I was over the age of 50 when I started rifle matches. There's no substitute for young eyes with iron sights.

OH, wait, I DID get those same scores a time or two (but it was at 200 yards....snicker).

Thanks for the information! That is interesting stuff!

Flash