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View Full Version : Way to get around the "sbr" thing?


Brodady
July 29, 2012, 11:00 AM
Okay, I have a hypothetical question. I'm only asking this because I have never seen it asked before, and logically it sounds plausible.
Would it be legal to have a AR upper cut down to an appropriate length (at that point it would be an sbr, but you don't attatch it to the lower yet) and then attach a suppressor (after doing the paperwork for the suppressor) that would make the upper at the legal 16" again.
So anytime you want to take the suppressor off, you just take the upper off of the lower, and then remove the suppressor.
Would this legally work? As the rifle is never an sbr as it is always the legal 16" when put together. Or is there a legality problem in not pining and welding the suppressor on the barrel (not something I would be willing to do).

Thanks~Brodady

g.willikers
July 29, 2012, 11:37 AM
Almost positive the suppressor would have to be permanently attached to the barrel.
Of course, you could maybe pull a Clinton - "What is permanent?"
But then you'd need lawyers.

RT
July 29, 2012, 11:54 AM
The can or muzzle device would have to be perm attached to bring the length to 16 inches.

rjrivero
July 29, 2012, 11:55 AM
Almost positive the suppressor would have to be permanently attached to the barrel.
Be positive. You are correct.
Of course, you could maybe pull a Clinton - "What is permanent?"
But then you'd need lawyers. And you would loose the money for the lawyer and your freedom. ATF 5320.8 clearly states the methods acceptable by the BATFE for "permanently attached muzzle devices."

You could always cut down the barrel, permanently attach a muzzle device big enough to cover the supperssor and bring the barrel to >16" legal limit, and then screw the suppressor down UNDER the perm attached muzzle device.

The overall length "equivalent" would be some 17"

Here's one I did with ADCO for my brother who lives in Michigan. This is for his 9mm AR, but you get the idea.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=286

Here's the barrel, with the adapter and the tube used to make the muzzle device.
http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=285

Here it is mock assembled with a YHM Spectre length handguard (Covers the transition from barrel to tube.)

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=284

ScottRiqui
July 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
Yep - that's the sticking point. If you're counting a barrel attachment toward the minimum-length requirement, then it has to be permanently attached.

PaulGL
July 29, 2012, 12:00 PM
That strategy would likely work, but I see a few holes in the plan:

1. Since you have to do nearly the same bloody paperwork for the suppressor- why not just do it right and submit the form1 at the same time for the SBR. Since you don't have to wait for the dealer transfer - it'll probably get approved before your form4 as well.

2. You're stuck with an expensive tool that *could* very likely be used on multiple weapons now married to just 1.

3. Depending on the suppressor design, this may make cleaning/maintenance more troublesome

4. You run the risk of running into some Buford T. Justice that doesn't quite agree with your interpretation of "permanent"

UtopiaTexasG19
July 29, 2012, 02:41 PM
I had to deal with the ATF years back when I was in the "Liquor" industry. If anyone is planning on testing out Federal laws I'd recommend getting a speeding ticket on a Interstate as the pleasant option and leaving fire arms
re-design to someone else. Naturally YMMV.

madcratebuilder
July 30, 2012, 07:47 AM
You could always buy the two stamps needed, $600 total and you can build any configuration with a detachable suppressor.

If you SBR a single lower you can have multiple uppers.

Eghad
July 30, 2012, 06:24 PM
Do the paperwork for the SBR & the can. The best option.

Justice06RR
July 30, 2012, 07:15 PM
Let me get this straight, by "cutting down the AR upper" you really mean cutting down the barrel, correct? Then how do you plan to attach the suppressor to the barrel?

why not just get a pistol length barrel instead and permanently attach your supressor to it. It saves you the trouble of "cutting down" the barrel...

RT
July 30, 2012, 08:02 PM
He is talking about cutting the barrel and then rethreading it and attaching a silencer mount. A pistol length barrel is still illegal if attached to a "non-SBR" or "non-pistol"lower unless you perm attach the device and bring total length to 16 inches

James K
July 30, 2012, 08:11 PM
There is a group of smart people trying to figure out ways around the federal laws and regulations on NFA firearms.

And there is a group of smarter people trying to figure out ways to put members of the first group in jail.

The second group has unlimited funds and all kinds of legal power. Guess which group wins.

Jim

Therealkoop
July 30, 2012, 08:16 PM
Its legal. Thread needs more tinfoil.

But yes it would have to be perm attached. Also, some states dont allow sbrs at all (michigan for example).

RT
July 30, 2012, 08:50 PM
Here is some SBR and suppressor ****.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/8bda28b0.jpg

Brodady
July 30, 2012, 09:01 PM
Thanks for all the info guys, and even though I don't foresee myself getting an sbr or a suppressor any time soon, I just was wanting some input from the pros :D

Uncle Malice
August 2, 2012, 09:04 PM
You could always buy the two stamps needed, $600 total and you can build any configuration with a detachable suppressor.

:confused:

Did I miss something, or did the cost of stamps go up? I thought it was $200 ea...

Justice06RR
August 3, 2012, 12:59 AM
He is talking about cutting the barrel and then rethreading it and attaching a silencer mount. A pistol length barrel is still illegal if attached to a "non-SBR" or "non-pistol"lower unless you perm attach the device and bring total length to 16 inches

Right, thats what I figured. But why go that route instead of just getting a SBR barrel, just to build it back to the legal 16in length again?

rjrivero
August 3, 2012, 02:58 AM
Right, thats what I figured. But why go that route instead of just getting a SBR barrel, just to build it back to the legal 16in length again?

Take for example the AR we built for my brother in Michigan (Above).

The length of the barrel is crucial in order to make sure the perm attached muzzle device brings the overall length of the "barrel" (Perm Attached Muzzle Device plus barrel) to >16".

For this suppressor, and the mount used for this suppressor, the barrel came out to be 9.8" (IIRC). The threaded area needed to be longer than the standard 0.6" threading as well so we could have enough area for the adaptor plus the suppressor mount. All in all, it was a strait up custom job with VERY specific measurements. This did start as a 16" barrel that was cut down and threaded specifically so we could have enough material and area to put the required blind pin to meet the requirements for Permanently Attached muzzle device published in ATF 5320.8.

Even if you are going to perm attach a suppresor to a barrel to make your >16" you would have to custom cut the barrel to make the correct length for that suppressor.

Does that make sense?

ohen cepel
August 3, 2012, 05:59 AM
RJ has it right if you want to do it, that is the way to do it.

Sort of like the 10/22 barrel which TacSol sells. Gets you the shorter overall length with the suppressor on it which I think is what the OP was looking to do without the paperwork.

Hadn't seen it done for the Ar yet but now I have. Neat.

Stressfire
August 3, 2012, 08:34 AM
Shot in the dark here...

If you only have the stamp for the suppressor, but not the upper and you were to take it down as suggested:

So anytime you want to take the suppressor off, you just take the upper off of the lower, and then remove the suppressor.

Could that be considered constructive possession?

44 AMP
August 3, 2012, 05:37 PM
Is the bugaboo here. IF you have a short barrel upper, all by itself, fine. If you have a lower, all by itself (or as part of a regular rifle) fine.

If you have both of them, even though you have never put them together, trouble. Constructive posession basically says that if you have all the parts, (even though you have not assembled it) its still a crime, unless you already have the right fed licenses.

people have been prosecuted for this.

You might win, and be out only your (tremendous) legal costs, plus the time and effort it will take to get your property back from the Feds, OR you might not win, and be totally screwed for the rest of your life.

Stupid to risk it, IMHO.

NYPD13
August 4, 2012, 04:54 PM
Ever consider suppressing a 16" barreled bullpup style rifle and avoiding the legal headache?

rjrivero
August 4, 2012, 07:34 PM
With the ATF ruling 2011-4 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CE4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Fregulations-rulings%2Frulings%2Fatf-rulings%2Fatf-ruling-2011-4.pdf&ei=qL8dUL6VFqTW0QHetoGIBQ&usg=AFQjCNFZ4aXYua46BSWA6HIyMcRWOntPeQ), there is a way to make moot the constructive possession issue.

Ruling 2011-4 says that you can take a pistol, make it into a legal rifle, and then make it back into a pistol any time you would like to without fear of making an illegal NFA Firearm (or SBR.)

You would have to either start with an AR pistol, and then buy a 16" barrel or 16" Complete Upper, and you can put a butt-stock on it to make a legal 16" barrel rifle.

Then you could keep your sub 16" upper for converting it back into pistol configuration.

You could also build your own AR pistol, and then configure it into a legal rifle configuration and then having your short upper is still okay in the eyes of the ATF.

The caveat is, by my reading, you must start with a PISTOL FIRST.

Of course proof is up to the ATF, however, I have resorted to taking pictures of my AR builds on a USA TODAY for the back drop and saving that as PROOF that I built that firearm into a pistol first. I doubt it would ever be an issue, but I'd rather have that proof. Makes me feel better.

BillM
August 4, 2012, 08:18 PM
Saw it mentioned briefly in one post---the Tactical Solutions SBX
barrel system.

Short barrel with a permanently attached "sleeve" that makes it
16+" overall. Your can fits down inside the sleeve.

Pretty sweet---I've got one on a 10-22. Without the can it's a
strange looking 22 with a 16" "barrel".

With the can it's around 17". No SBR paperwork, and I can
take the can off and use it on other 22's.

44 AMP
August 6, 2012, 10:36 PM
I would think that taking a picture with a newspaper (date visible) is only proof that it was done sometime after the date on the paper.

and then there is photoshop, so is a pic reeally proof of anything, these days?

Oh sure, once you get into court, an expert can testify to the pixel mapping thing, and (hopefully) verify it isn't photoshop, but by that time, you're in court, and legal fees are mounting.....

It can't hurt, I suppose, but I don't think you could count on it as proof, outside of court....

rjrivero
August 7, 2012, 10:38 AM
I suppose you could use a polaroid. Or maybe shoot a short video? No good answer, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution anyway. What proof do THEY have if you have photos and videos to show that they are legal?

tirod
August 7, 2012, 11:44 PM
Some would ask why bother, and the answer is because.

OK, but the point is, what do you get for all the work around? And, it doesn't have to be a suppressor, either. The CAR is the example there, the permanently attached flash hider is long enough to make the total barrel length 16.1".

You don't need a suppressor to do it. But the result is, you don't have 16" of rifled barrel, but you still do have 16" of barrel attached to the upper. It's not any shorter, and now, it's not any more powerful. It is in face, less powerful, which brings up the same problem the M4 is accused of: Not Enough Knockdown.

Even suppressed, it's just quieter than a normal 16", it's not more accurate, more powerful, or more anything. This is a case of yes you can likely do it, but what for? Suppressed is it's own reason, but less than 16" takes some justification. It takes it out of the 500m lethality envelope. It becomes a 250m close in gun.

The only way to bump up the power is bump up the caliber. If you give away the farm by cutting the barrel, you will need to add back more gunpowder, and a larger bullet with more mass to make it effective.

The real point of the discussion is the same fantasy that's been running around for quite a few years now - make the AR as short as a sub machine gun, because that looks so cool. The problem is that it also cuts off it's -- well, um, emasculates it. It becomes another pistol caliber at that point. It's a rifle. It doesn't do pistol. Use a pistol for that. Leave the rifle what it is, so you can use it when you need to reach out. Or, someone will do some pace counting, and only shoot at you from just a few further than you can reach. Which isn't very fun, as our patrols in Afghanistan have discovered.

Yes, you can cut the barrel down and weld it back up, but the result is "gamer" and doesn't really have a role in actual combat. We actually tried it with the M231 port firing weapon, which, of course, is remembered for it's decisive combat contribution to modern warfare.

Yeah, sure.

Justice06RR
August 8, 2012, 02:16 AM
Is the bugaboo here. IF you have a short barrel upper, all by itself, fine. If you have a lower, all by itself (or as part of a regular rifle) fine.

If you have both of them, even though you have never put them together, trouble. Constructive posession basically says that if you have all the parts, (even though you have not assembled it) its still a crime, unless you already have the right fed licenses.

people have been prosecuted for this.

You might win, and be out only your (tremendous) legal costs, plus the time and effort it will take to get your property back from the Feds, OR you might not win, and be totally screwed for the rest of your life.

Stupid to risk it, IMHO.

Can you post a citation to this?

I'm not quite convinced. If I have a Carbine AR and a Pistol AR, I have the capability to swap the upper and lower to make an SBR. Is that illegal?