PDA

View Full Version : Shipping UPS


jlb43
July 25, 2012, 01:07 PM
For what it is worth, I just got off the phone with some supervisor at UPS regarding shipping a black powder replica revolver from private residence to private residence. He said emphatically that UPS forbids such shipments. He said they have arrangements with companies such as Bass Pro etc. and the manufacturers to ship these items but unlicensed private parties cannot use UPS unless they are returning a gun to the manufacturer or company. What the ATF says does not concern UPS, this is their rule.

I don't know if he knows what he is talking about but he did not waiver. :confused::confused::confused:

Willie Sutton
July 25, 2012, 01:30 PM
It's nonsense. Typical industrial ignorance. Ignore Idiots. Why in the world would you call them to begin with? Pack your box, pay your shipping charge, keep your mouth shut, and forget it. What's the worst they can do?


Willie

.

noelf2
July 25, 2012, 01:31 PM
He said they have arrangements with companies such as Bass Pro etc. and the manufacturers to ship these items but unlicensed private parties cannot use UPS unless they are returning a gun to the manufacturer or company.

What kind of license did he say is required? I have a driver's license.. ;)

Don H
July 25, 2012, 01:51 PM
You aren't shipping a firearm so UPS's firearms policies don't apply. UPS relies on the Federal definition of firearms for their policies. A black powder replica isn't a firearm. You are shipping machine parts.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

TomADC
July 25, 2012, 02:29 PM
Just use the post office, especially if if it fits in a flat rate box.

Doc Hoy
July 25, 2012, 02:43 PM
What Tom Said.

tatartot
July 25, 2012, 03:08 PM
Don H is right on, this matter.A black powder gun is not listed
under law as a fire arm.I have sent more than one by UPS.The
guy does not know the law.

UPS says NO FIRE ARM, any a black powder gun under law
is not a fire arm.Why even ask, just send it,Dang!

Tatar:D

Doc Hoy
July 25, 2012, 04:03 PM
UPS (as far as I know) is not bound by the federal definition of the word "firearm" nor are they required to abide by the policies of the USPS. I guess I am saying, they get to decide what is a fire arm and what is not.

Tatar, If you shipped a BP replica via UPS with their full knowledge that it was a BP replica, then we have two different UPS folks who have two different understandings of UPS policy.

Please understand, I am not disagreeing with the possibility that the UPS wheeny was an ignoramus. Perhaps he is and also perhaps he does not understand UPS policy.


As for the word "License" there are hundreds of corporations which issue licenses for this or that and I think it is completely believable that UPS would have licensing agreements with shippers including licenses which cover the shipment of firearms (Their definition).

It is for this reason that I don't argue with them, I just don't use them to ship anything, I say again, ANYTHING.

USPS flat rate boxes are IMNSHO the best way to ship black power replica revolvers.

Fingers McGee
July 25, 2012, 04:29 PM
For a number of years I shipped C&B revolvers via UPS without any hassle from the local UPS store. When their prices went up, I switched to the Post Office for all my shipping. Flat rate Priority mailer & insured generally costs under $20.00 depending on insurance amount. A Navy Arms L&R in the box will ship Priority for $15.20, insured for $275 with electronic return receipt. And it'll get to the destination in 2 days.

Strafer Gott
July 25, 2012, 04:43 PM
If UPS doesn't want my business, I'm prone to agree with them. USPS here we come! Thanks for the info Fingers!

Don H
July 25, 2012, 04:59 PM
UPS (as far as I know) is not bound by the federal definition of the word "firearm" nor are they required to abide by the policies of the USPS. I guess I am saying, they get to decide what is a fire arm and what is not.


From the UPS link I posted above:
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation...
Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. ยง 921, will be accepted for transportation...

jlb43
July 25, 2012, 07:32 PM
All I know is what I know. Nowhere can I find anything, in writing or otherwise, from UPS or FedEx that actually says they will accept a black powder replica REVOLVER for shipment from any unlicensed (FFL) person to another unlicensed (FFL) person. Simply citeing the ATF regulations does not change that and if you read the UPS rules you will not see REPLICA mentioned anywhere I can see. This dude told me that if it uses an explosion to propel a projectile then as far as UPS is concerned it is a firearm and if it is a handgun then the reciever has to be an FFL. Just because the ATF does not consider replicas to be firearms does not mean UPS cannot refuse to treat them as firearms. They make THEIR policies according to THEIR legal eagles and that is the name of that tune. I personally don't care who chooses to ignore this and uses UPS to ship from one person to another. I can tell you that UPS does check packages from time to time mainly for illegal drugs. I for one, am not going to be the one who gets accidently snared by some over zealous employee looking to make brownie points. As to what are they going to do about it?, I will not be the one to find out. I have better things to occupy my time than getting into a ******* match with UPS. What anyone else does is their business. I wish you well.

I checked with the post office and their regulations specifically say you CAN use them to mail replicas of antique guns that use black powder. Needless to say that is who I will be using from now on.

Hawg
July 25, 2012, 07:40 PM
It depends on the people working there. Here the Postmaster refuses to accept bp guns. UPS is only open one hour a day and the one in the next town refuses to ship guns unless you have an FFL. Fedex wants 116.00 to overnight or they won't ship. Local gunshop charges 25.00 and ships it through UPS.

Doc Hoy
July 25, 2012, 08:03 PM
Good job.

Your post enlightens us as to how the UPS defines the word "Firearm". They choose (we assume universally and consistently) to define it as the government does.

My point was that (while I did not know which was true) they could either simply accept the government's definition, or choose to define "firearm" in a more restrictive way as we were told by the OP that one of their underinformed representatives did.

Your information also confirms which of the UPS people were in the wrong.

A representative who refuses to accept a BP replica for shipment on the strength of the argument that if is a "firearm" under federal law is misinformed and not acting in acordance with thpolicy established by UPS. As we all know and as several have testified, it may be of no assistance to point this out to the representative if that person is convinced they are right.

This is why I go to the post office and use a flat rate box. The post office wheeny nevers asks what the item is, they ask what is isn't. Since BP replicas are never among the things the skirt asks about, I ship with impunity.

Dozens of times and never more than 11.00 including a Walker.

jlb43
July 25, 2012, 08:06 PM
Using my local FFL pawn shop is a good idea. I will see if he is agreeable. You may have seen this before so I apoligize for repeating but these paragraphs from the USPS regulations make it pretty clear that you can legally use the post office for bp handguns.

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms

11.1.1 Definitions

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

11.2 Antique Firearms

Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.

Willie Sutton
July 25, 2012, 09:35 PM
Boy.. I can see why people have problems: They make up problems where none exist.

If you KNOW it's legal to mail something, MAIL IT.

If you KNOW it's legal to ships something UPS, SHIP IT.

If you are in compliance with UPS Policy... ship and don't sweat it.

If you are NOT in compliance with UPS policy, there is NOTHING that they can do to you... there are no "UPS Police"... :o What are they going to do? Pitch a fit?


When you ship BP stuff, keep your mouth shut and hand over the box. NOBODY needs to know what is in the box. They do not ask... don't tell! They don't X-ray the stuff... just send it. I received two BP replicas *yesterday*. One was sent UPS and one was sent USPS. No hassle to shipper or recipient.

Why cause yourself a problem when none exists? Try not talking... :rolleyes:


Willie


.

Hardcase
July 26, 2012, 11:50 AM
According to UPS's tarriffs and terms of service, the company defines firearms in accordance with Title 18 Chapter 44, just like the Post Office does. There aren't any special rules for black powder guns, just like with the Post Office.

But, just like the Post Office, you have to get past the "gatekeeper" who may not understand the rules. I went through something similar at the Post Office when nobody, not even the postmaster, had a clear handle on how to ship a firearm. Fortunately, they were willing to learn and review the regulations with me, so it worked out.

My advice? Ship your black powder revolver with UPS if you want. Personally, I'd go with USPS because Priority Mail is faster, cheaper and extremely reliable.

Here is a link to the relevant rules: http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

FrontierGander
July 26, 2012, 12:05 PM
you can ship a firearm directly through the UPS main office in your area, smaller UPS stores can not accept 3rd party transfers though due to ups being afraid their employees will steal the package like they had been caught doing years ago.

4V50 Gary
July 26, 2012, 12:20 PM
USPS flat rate box. Print the label and pay for it online. It's cheaper than paying for it at the counter.

arcticap
July 26, 2012, 01:42 PM
I've shipped every kind of muzzle loader by UPS and Fedex.
Fedex clearly told me that muzzle loaders are classified as "non-firearm weapons" which allows them to be shipped through most every local Fedex store.
They also told me to call the local store first to verify that it's okay with them which I've done.
Depending on which UPS clerk is working, they'll check the rules or call about anything questionable that's being shipped to determine its eligibility first and I've never had a muzzle loader rejected from a full UPS customer service center which is where the truck terminal is located.
UPS asks the shipper to declare the contents of the package while Fedex doesn't. But the same rules basically apply and that is that they are non-firearm weapons.
I've been through the same routine with nearly every local postal clerk too and so now most of them are aware of the rules about shipping them.
When there's a new clerk they will sometimes need to be instructed. But maybe the folks at the UPS national info. line are hit and miss when it comes to giving out the correct info..
The Fedex and the USPS info. line people are usually pretty accurate.

Rachen
July 26, 2012, 02:39 PM
I ship/receive black powder revolvers and rifles by UPS all the time.
A lot, and I mean A LOT of people working in the industry are not familiar with the laws. And for many of them, this job is the only job they have, or can obtain in their area, so they DO NOT want to make mistakes. They rather be safe than sorry and risk losing their only income source.

shurshot
August 6, 2012, 08:34 PM
I went through this with UPS a decade or so ago pertaining to AIR PISTOLS. One "Lady" in South Portland Maine refused to ship it unless I was an FFL dealer. "A handgun is a handgun", or so I was told in a very blunt manner. The "gun" was a 1930's vintage Benjamin air pistol I was trying to send out for a new valve. I tried to explain the GCA of 68 to her and the definition of a firearm, to no avail.
After writing to several higher ups in Corporate and threatening to get an NRA boycott started, they fixed the issue... REAL QUICK. She was VERY tight lipped when I returned and would not make eye contact as she accepted my air pistol.;)

PetahW
August 7, 2012, 11:09 AM
Why cause yourself a problem when none exists? Try not talking


Amen. Even a dumb fish wouldn't get in trouble, if it would only keep it's big mouth SHUT.

Under USPS Regs, there's NO obligation to disclose the contents of ANY parcel, beyond answering the questions every USPS Postal Clerk is supposed to ask of every parcel mailer: "Are the contents flammable, explosive, fragile, perishable or hazardous ?"

If YOU know what you're doing is legal, do it w/o a fuss.


.

tripe1917
August 7, 2012, 07:14 PM
I had the same issue with my local post office. The clerks wouldn't ship it and I explained the definition of firearm and Texas rules governing shipping. She cited the clause if the antique firearm is a curio or for a museum and since I was shipping it to a gunsmith, that wasn't a museum. I went to another post office and the same thing occurred. I finally talked to the office manager and he said don't describe the contents and ship go ahead and ship it. I did and had no problem getting the pistol to its destination. I just worry if the package is lost, how do you collect your refund if it was insured and you are asked what was in the package.

mykeal
August 7, 2012, 07:35 PM
how do you collect your refund if it was insured and you are asked what was in the package.
You file the claim based on the value of the package, not what was in it. And even if they do ask about the contents it wasn't illegal in the first place so there's nothing they can do about it, the stupidity of two clerks notwithstanding.

Frankly, if I were you'd I'd be filing a formal complaint against the two clerks with the Post Office Inspector General. If they ever do that again, demand a complaint form - they have to give you one and provide a receipt for it when you turn it in. And be sure to get their names along with the form.

tripe1917
August 7, 2012, 09:47 PM
I appreciate the information. FedEx costs are prohibitive when shipping anything with a trigger on it. UPS told me they will not ship any that fits their definition of a firearm. I think I will contact the IG to get their official response. Thanks

mykeal
August 8, 2012, 06:55 AM
You won't get an answer to that question from the Inspector General. His job is to investigate compliance with regulations, not interpret them for the general public. In other words, he responds to complaint forms only.

The answer to your question is in the Post Office regulations manual. You need to assert on the claim form that a specific individual, by name, did violate a given paragraph in that manual on a specific data at a specific time.

They don't make it easy.

The definition of an antique firearm is in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) 601 Section 12 paragraph 12.1.1 g:
Quote:
Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The mailability of antique firearms is proscribed in DMM 601 Section 12 paragraph 12.2:
Quote:
Antique Firearms

Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
(The referenced paragraphs 12.1.3 through 12.1.6 describe conditions under which certain authorized persons may mail otherwise prohibited guns).

Postal Service employees may not ask a customer what is in the package. The only question they are allowed to ask is whether the package contains anything that is hazardous, perishable or restricted. An antique firearm is considered a restricted item, so if asked that question you must answer yes. However, that's all you need to do. They still cannot ask specifically what the restricted material is. Your answer to the question tells them how to route the item (air transportation, for instance, is not allowed for restricted items) but that's all they need to know.

Sure Shot Mc Gee
August 8, 2012, 09:51 AM
There are rules and Laws concerning all things shipped by air sea and land. Most are so entertwined with each other that no one person can make sense of it all. You just experienced some of that confusion in your area. Don't bother yourself in trying to debate a UPS agents interpretation of his company's rule. Doing so only increases frustration on both sides of the phone. Side step the issue and find another carrier to use. Hanging onto the anxiety this UPS situation has caused isn't worth your time or energy. As they say on the East coast "For~get about it"

Fingers McGee
August 8, 2012, 11:23 AM
The only question they are allowed to ask is whether the package contains anything that is hazardous, perishable or restricted. An antique firearm is considered a restricted item, so if asked that question you must answer yes.

I do not believe you are correct Mykeal. When I mail a package - containing a BP revolver or anything else - the clerk asks "Are the contents flammable, explosive, fragile, perishable or hazardous ?" A C&B revolver falls under none of those categories, so my answer is always 'NO'.

mykeal
August 8, 2012, 11:39 AM
Fingers - you are correct. I pulled that up from an old thread and forgot to change it. Thanks for pointing it out.

tripe1917
August 8, 2012, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification everyone. I will be better prepared next time.