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achilles00775
July 22, 2012, 08:41 PM
Okay... after some careful reading this is what I gathered are the only long-range rifle comps in the US are

ISSF (10, 50, 300 m)
Running Target ISSF (10 and 50m)
High Power (200, 300, 600 yards)
Full-bore
Benchrest
and
F-class...

Does this cover it all? (Not to confident as I keep hearing about this "Palma" stuff)
And, in your opinion-- which is the most common? I need some training, and it won't do me any good to start off in a comp that is very rare and hard to find and train in.

Jim Watson
July 22, 2012, 10:38 PM
ISSF, which some of us oldtimers still call ISU, is not real common in the USA.
I don't call 10 metre (air rifle), 50 metre (.22), or even 300 metre (centerfire OFFHAND) "long range".
Likewise ISSF running target, while challenging, is not at great range (10 metre air rifle, 50 metre .22. Apparently the 100 metre centerfire running deer is long gone.) and is not often shot in the USA.

Benchrest shooting is done here and there but the standard is at 100, 200, and 300 yards. There is long range benchrest if you can find it in your area.

Fullbore is an international event supported by NRA.

Highpower is probably the most common.

F-class was designed for us codgers in Canada but has spread widely in USA.

Palma is shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards with a .308 iron sighted rifle with sling. Regular matches are not uncommon, the big international Palma matches between the USA and the Commonwealth are held ever 4 years. You have to be sharp to make the team.

Actually, what I have seen in my modest experience is a generic midrange (200-600 yard) or long range (800-1000 yard, sometimes 1200) slowfire match with several different rifles represented on the firing line. Including Service Rifle, Match Rifle, Any Rifle, Palma Rifle, and F class divided into F-T/R and F-Open. The F class gets its own target, half as big as the others because of the use of artificial support. But everything is shot concurrently with the same time limits.

Rules for the different events are shown at
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp

And if you scout around there, or call a live representative, you can find out what is shot in your area.

4EVERM-14
July 23, 2012, 04:05 PM
Mr. Watson's post covered the question very well. I think the best choice for general rifle experience and training is NRA Conventional High Power. It involves shooting from position at distance. There are events held just about everywhere and can even be held at ranges with shorter distances with the use of reduced targets. F-class is more relaxed in that you shoot from sandbags, bi-pod or other type rest but the target is very difficult. Look into a local High Power match in your area and see if that's something of interest.

10-96
July 23, 2012, 08:21 PM
To add a note to High Power- that field is/can be broken down further to John C Garand Matches, Springfield Matches, and while I don't know how common it is- there is a Military Rifle Benchrest held once a week in Amarillo, TX.

Jim Watson
July 23, 2012, 10:33 PM
Yes, and there is a Sporting Rifle division in NRA Conventional, too.
I have seen one qualifying rifle at one match one time.
They try to cover the map but response is not always great.

Blackops_2
July 24, 2012, 12:09 PM
Pratical Long range matches while not as common as those listed above are growing. Though i'm not sure what the official name for them is. Things like Sniper's Hide cup, Big Steel Safari, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3L4lsu7K9M

More or less packing for the entire day and engaging targets at an unknown distance and looking for first round hits whilst shooting in different positions. So groups don't seem to be as much of a concern.

Will_M
July 24, 2012, 01:55 PM
This is the quote from the match director of the A.I.M. Small Miss Small Precision Rifle Challenge.

I'm proud to announce to you the 2012 "A.I.M. Small Miss Small Precision Rifle Challenge". This event will take place at the American International Marksmanship Academy in Blakely GA on November 17-18, 2012 and we're opening up registration for 80 shooters. The facility is over 4200 acres and has unlimited shooting opportunities including a UKD range with 50 E-type targets set anywhere from 300 yards to beyond 1 mile. The facility also has on site lodging in private individual log cabins that are brand new with cable tv, wireless internet, micro kitchen with fridge, bathrooms, running water, and multiple sleeping accommodations. Some cabins have multiple beds, some have single queen size beds. The lodging is limited and will be reserved for the first people to register for the match and reserve one. I'll post more information on exactly what sleeping arrangements are available and quantity. The cabins will rent for $150 per cabin for the weekend with check in anytime on Friday, November 16th. There are hotels within a 10 minute drive for anyone not taking a cabin.

The match will be broken up and shot on 4 different areas of the property with multiple target engagements at each location. There will be some run and gun, some positional shooting, some UKD, and some F-Class style shooting. Most of the CoF is already written up and the property is being prepared already. Saturday will consist of 7.5 hours (+ 1 hour lunch break for 8.5 hours total) of shooting and Sunday will run for 2.5 hours. We WILL be feeding the competitors on Saturday evening and concession trailers are on site for hot lunches during the day. This match will be new shooter friendly so if you know someone that has been wanting to try this style of shooting, this will be the perfect match. Target sizes will be generous as will the time limits. There will be minimal down time as we will have multiple events going on at once at each station.

There will be no pistol in this event.
You will need to know your rifle data out to 1450 yards if you want the bonus points.
You will also need a LRF for a few of the events.
Bring standard match gear such as hydration, rain gear, and anything else you may need. The weather should be nice here in November with moderate temperatures.

This match is going to be cash payback unless someone wants to volunteer to do a prize table (here's your chance to help Joe!). Hopefully it will be on the schedule to be a PRS match in 2013. We are going to pay back a total of $6,000.00 with the money being paid out in the following order:
1st Place $2000
2nd Place $1500
3rd Place $1000
4th Place $750
5th Place $500
6th Place $250

Registration will open at 11:00am EST August 1, 2012. Send registration requests to riflematches@gmail.com

We will have entry forms that can be completed electronically and available for download from the AIM Academy website before registration opens on August 1. Match entry fees will be $200 per competitor and that includes match t-shirt and meal on Saturday evening.
http://www.marksmanshipacademy.com/

If you have any questions you can email me or ask here.
riflematches@gmail.com

Hope to see you all in November!

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 04:12 PM
Wow. Thanks everyone!

I am always pleasantly surprised by the friendliness and quality of help in this forum!

Great to be back here again!

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 09:43 PM
ISSF, which some of us oldtimers still call ISU, is not real common in the USA.
I don't call 10 metre (air rifle), 50 metre (.22), or even 300 metre (centerfire OFFHAND) "long range".
Likewise ISSF running target, while challenging, is not at great range (10 metre air rifle, 50 metre .22. Apparently the 100 metre centerfire running deer is long gone.) and is not often shot in the USA.

Benchrest shooting is done here and there but the standard is at 100, 200, and 300 yards. There is long range benchrest if you can find it in your area.

Fullbore is an international event supported by NRA.

Highpower is probably the most common.

F-class was designed for us codgers in Canada but has spread widely in USA.

Palma is shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards with a .308 iron sighted rifle with sling. Regular matches are not uncommon, the big international Palma matches between the USA and the Commonwealth are held ever 4 years. You have to be sharp to make the team.

Actually, what I have seen in my modest experience is a generic midrange (200-600 yard) or long range (800-1000 yard, sometimes 1200) slowfire match with several different rifles represented on the firing line. Including Service Rifle, Match Rifle, Any Rifle, Palma Rifle, and F class divided into F-T/R and F-Open. The F class gets its own target, half as big as the others because of the use of artificial support. But everything is shot concurrently with the same time limits.

Rules for the different events are shown at
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp

And if you scout around there, or call a live representative, you can find out what is shot in your area.

Thanks again, Will_M.

I tried looking at the NRA site at their Highpower events, and saw guns listed as M-16 and M-14.

I thought those were automatic rifles?

forgive my ignorance.

As I am just starting and have no clue about gun nomenclature, but I thought that most long range events would require guns that were the one-shot types?

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 09:48 PM
Mr. Watson's post covered the question very well. I think the best choice for general rifle experience and training is NRA Conventional High Power. It involves shooting from position at distance. There are events held just about everywhere and can even be held at ranges with shorter distances with the use of reduced targets. F-class is more relaxed in that you shoot from sandbags, bi-pod or other type rest but the target is very difficult. Look into a local High Power match in your area and see if that's something of interest.

thanks for the post, 4EVERM-14.

One question about the events that can be held at ranges with shorter distances with the use of reduced targets.

would this be for something like a .22LR rifle, if one wanted practice shooting long range, but could only afford this as an entry gun?

I'm currently trying to decide between a rifle that would let me shoot at a distance of 800 vs. the very affordable and beginner friendly .22LR.

If the .22LR rifle can give me pretty good training results to prepare me for long-range shooting, I think I'm all for it.

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 10:08 PM
sorry. After a quick google search, I realized that those were military-issued rifles.

I would say I'm more interested in the match rifles.

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 10:18 PM
Okay, after a bit of research I've finalized on .223 REM, .308WIN or .22LR.

Jim Watson
July 24, 2012, 10:37 PM
If the military team shoots an M14 or M16 in Service Rifle, you get an M1A or AR15, semiauto only and legal for an American to own... so far.

It is hard to argue against a .22. As Jeff Cooper said, "you can learn about 80% of what you need to know with a .22."
Shoot it at 50 yards to develop technique, then move out to get practice in judging the wind comparable to a centerfire at longer range.
A good .22 at 100 yards is a challenge. At 200 it is darned tough.

Service life of a .22 barrel is very long, you will not wear it out and can always go back to it for quiet economical practice.

A friend shoots F-class, at 1000 yards by choice, but he shoots a pellet gun in the basement every day and a .22 in the back yard several times a week.
He wins with the big gun, too.

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 11:02 PM
If the military team shoots an M14 or M16 in Service Rifle, you get an M1A or AR15, semiauto only and legal for an American to own... so far.

It is hard to argue against a .22. As Jeff Cooper said, "you can learn about 80% of what you need to know with a .22."
Shoot it at 50 yards to develop technique, then move out to get practice in judging the wind comparable to a centerfire at longer range.
A good .22 at 100 yards is a challenge. At 200 it is darned tough.

Service life of a .22 barrel is very long, you will not wear it out and can always go back to it for quiet economical practice.

A friend shoots F-class, at 1000 yards by choice, but he shoots a pellet gun in the basement every day and a .22 in the back yard several times a week.
He wins with the big gun, too.

wow.. this post is gold.

And with your endorsement, I'm pretty sure I've made up my mind. The .22lr it is.

Thank you again, so much for your help. :)

Unfortunately it means I won't be shooting at any long comp shooting range any time soon.

Sorry that i wasted everyone's time with this posting. i just get so indecisive at times.

So I guess the only thing left to do is to find an outdoor range in South Florida somewhere... I'm pretty sure there should be plenty.

Again-- sorry to change up on you guys, so fast.

Your recommendations were great.

Jim Watson
July 24, 2012, 11:13 PM
I just hope you won't get bored with a rifle that shoots inexpensive ammo with little noise, no recoil, and good accuracy.
So many Internet Nimrods require blast and kick to get the full experience.

The leading good quality sporting rifle here is the CZ 452 or 455 American.
Of course you can spend as much as you care to on a serious target .22 but the CZ will take you a long way.

Check in with my friends at Rimfire Sports, with special attention to the CMP Sporter stuff.
http://rimfireshooting.com/index.php?act=idx

achilles00775
July 24, 2012, 11:32 PM
Wow, Mr. Watson. this is really great!

I was just getting ready to ask you what you would recommend, and i see you've already beat me to it!

I feel so excited.

Words can't describe my thanks!

4EVERM-14
July 25, 2012, 02:44 PM
If you chose a .22LR and are seriously interested in learning the art of shooting
look at the Savage MKII FVT. It's not the prettiest rifle but comes complete with a good trigger ,Target type sights and heavy barrel. About $360. With this rifle, a spotting scope and sling you can practice position shooting on a budget. Shooting at a randomly obtained bullseye target can be fun but limits the learning curve. I suggest shooting at regulation targets at the correct distance. 50 foot Smallbore,50 yard Smallbore,100 yard Smallbore, 50 meter international. This allows you to keep score and track your progress. You can also see how you rate with others across the nation.

achilles00775
July 25, 2012, 07:02 PM
Thanks, 4everm, I just happened to catch this.

do you think it's possible for someone to try (at the very most) also up to 200 yards with the .22lr?

Jim Watson
July 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
Yes there is shooting with .22s up to and beyond 200 yards.
BPCR .22 Metallic Silhouette is an extremely specialized sport that shoots out to 200 metres, but there are others.
http://www.22bpcra.org/history-objective.html

I think you should get proficient at 50 and 100 yards before you start at ranges that are really long for the caliber, though.

Blackops_2
July 26, 2012, 01:40 AM
.22 will build great fundamentals.

mrt949
July 26, 2012, 08:50 AM
Oh boy looks like I am hooked again .BPCR :eek:

Jim Watson
July 26, 2012, 10:58 AM
Careful, that is an expensive habit; and a period type .22 single shot is just the tip of the iceberg. A good .45-70 or such is an expensive rifle and loading good ammunition for it is demanding and time consuming.

4EVERM-14
July 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
do you think it's possible for someone to try (at the very most) also up to 200 yards with the .22lr?
The SR42 Highpower target is very close to the old 200yard Smallbore target. The .22 is surprisingly accurate even at that distance. Standard velocity ammunition is more accurate. Shooting at 200 yards with a .22 is similar to a highpower rifle shooting at 1000yards. Really have to watch the wind but it's a trip trying to shoot X's.

mrt949
July 30, 2012, 04:23 PM
I played the small bore rifle silhouette for a few years. Still have a setup .A RUGER 77 22 WITH A 8 X 32 scope.

alan
August 14, 2012, 05:09 PM
achilles00775

Re long range rifle competition, not this "F class", I used to shoot 1000 yard competition at Camp Perry, Ohio, excluding the Nationals, the Ohio
Rifle and Pistol Association used to have regularly scheduled matches at Camp Perry. these included both The National Match Course (200, 300 and 600 yards), and 1000 yard matches fired with "service rifles", back then they were Garands and M1A's , some still fired Springfields. NRA Match Rifles were bolt actions, fired with "iron sights" or scopes, as per the match program.

Also fired NMC and Long Range competition at Quantico MCB, and Stone Bay, Camp Lejeune, Jacksonville, N.C. There were regularly scheduled matches at these locations, also Cherry Point MCAS, Havelock, N.C.

Re Quantico, check with MCDEC there, or contact the base itself. Ditto for other military installations, which usually have a "Rod and Gun Club" on post. I'm no longer active in high power rifle competition, however I would assume that shooting goes on at these locations.

Ideal Tool
August 15, 2012, 01:24 AM
Your list didn't include the mid range..up to 600yds. or the long range 1000yds + black powder matches..both breech & muzzle loaders.
200 yd. prone .22 matches were quite common at Perry, Seagirt, etc.

alan
August 15, 2012, 07:27 PM
IDEAL tOOL:

Re the shooting that you think I didn't list, please reread my post.

Regarding black powdwer cartridge competition, Mike Venterino writes of it quite often, see Rifle and or Handloader magazines. Some of his stuff is quite interesting and informative, depending on one's interests.

As to 200 yard 22 rim fire competition at Seagirt, as in New Jersey, right, I never got involved much in small bore competition. Also, Seagirt was years and years ago, wasn't it? I first shot at Camp Perry in 1970 or '71. As to shooting a 22 rf at 200 yards there, what with the way the wind sometimes blows, that would be quite a challenge. I do not recall evwer seeing 200 yard 22 rf shooting there, but I might have missed something interesting.

Actually shooting the NMC + 1000 yards with center fire rifles (30-06 and 308) was quite enough for me, but to each their own.

Ideal Tool
August 15, 2012, 10:41 PM
Hello, alan..yes The days of Seagirt are long past..But as to shooting rimfire at 200yds., I used to shoot at a local Schuetzen club..both centerfire & rimfire. Most rimfire shooting was 50yds..but there was a 200yd. match. One fellow was using a BSA martini Mk. 3 I believe..the model with steel forend hanger. He was keeping all his shots in 1 1/4"..and there was a breeze blowing! That guy could read those wind flags!

alan
August 16, 2012, 10:55 PM
Ideal Tool:


Are you saying that this gentleman shot 1.25" groups at 200 yards with a 22 rf rifle, if so, he must have been the personification of a human machine rest. I also wonder as to where he got ammunition capable of such accuracy.

As to the days of Seagirt being "long past", that isn't the only thing that could be so described.

Ideal Tool
August 17, 2012, 12:00 AM
Hello, alan..Sorry..working too long..& going by memory. This match was shot at 200yds. on the ASSRA #3 or #4 target...only difference is color..one is red, other is black...shooters choice which is used. Both have center bull of 1 1/2" dia. The gentleman I refered to kept all 10 shots withen that 1 1/2" center. Nothing special as far as rest..old Hart cast-iron front with sandbag, bunny-ear leather bag at rear. Benches were wood. I believe he was using Eley black box match.

alan
August 17, 2012, 09:04 PM
Ideal Tool:

Bench rest is a different story. Notwithstanding that, holding inside 1.5" at 200 yards with .22 RF is quite something.

4EVERM-14
August 18, 2012, 04:30 PM
I measured an old A-23 target. This was the official 200 yard smallbore target. The 10 ring is 4.5 inches diameter and 9 inches diameter for the 9 ring. We shot this in club prone matches mainly for fun. It was not uncommon for 20 shot scores to be around 193 with a few X's . IDEAL'S post about 1 1/2" groups from benchrest is outstanding. Keeping most of your shot inside a 4inch circle from prone is an eye opener too.

alan
August 18, 2012, 09:20 PM
4EVERM-14:

It gets molre iinteresting. For myself, while I have now and then done a little target shooting with .22 RF. I never got into serious competition with that cartridge. Shooting sub 2" groups, even bench rest with this cartridge at 200 yards amazes me, perhaps I'm to easily amused.

I did however shoot NMC Competition, 200, 300 500 and or 600 yards and 1000 yard competition for quite a few years, having starterd with a WW2 Winchester Garand. On the old 5V 1000 yard target, I consistently shot in the mid 90's out of as possible 100.

With the .308 cartridge in a Model 70 at 600 yards prone, iiron sights, I could hold inside the 10 ring elevation wise, usually dropping a few points to windage. The 600 yard target 10 ring was 12" in diameter, two minutes of angle.

As for 1000 yard shooting with a .308, I might just as well have been throwing rocks. With the 30-06, a different story. Please do not inquire about how I did at 200 yards, off-hand, for it is a rather sad story, with either .308 or 30-06. Dry firing practice was what I needed, but that got to be like work, the unpaid kind, which never held my interest, at least not for very long, ergo, my poor off-hand scores, about 170 out of a possible 200. It was fun while it lasted.

4EVERM-14
August 19, 2012, 06:40 PM
The OP's question about long range shooting has been answered in a rather unique way.The lowly .22 is one of the most versatile cartridges that can keep a plinker happy as well as be an economic teacher of position shooting and long range shooting.

alan
August 19, 2012, 10:14 PM
4EVERM-14 wrote:

The OP's question about long range shooting has been answered in a rather unique way.The lowly .22 is one of the most versatile cartridges that can keep a plinker happy as well as be an economic teacher of position shooting and long range shooting.
__________________
David
NRA Benefactor Member
Distinguished Rifleman #731
Presidents 100
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know that you are in any significant way incorrect in what you said, but I cannot really dispute your comments either, as like I said, I nevwer got into 22 rf in anything like a serious way.

I note your status, Distinguished and Presidents 100. Impressive. For myself, I held, at one time, NRA High Power Expert Classification, and NRA Life Membership since 1973. Lot of water undwer the bridge since then.

Keep your poqwder cool and dry.

Alan

4EVERM-14
August 20, 2012, 02:27 PM
alan, thanks. A lot of water has passed under my bridge as well.
A good friend and shooting partner is a highpower competitor. He always used to say that the .22 was for "kids and old men". When we both began shooting a winter position league he quickly agreed that it was not at all easy. It was as challenging and satisfying as highpower. It is a great substitute when circumstances don't allow centerfire practice.

Ideal Tool
August 20, 2012, 10:56 PM
Hello, everyone. Concerning that 200 yd. shooting exhibition..The match was just about finished for the day..most shooters had left..only myself, and two or three old timers were left. If I remember correctly, I was the only one mesmerized by this shooting..the others kind of took it all in stride. Now the fellow doing the shooting was on his own back-yard range..way out in country with cornfields surrounding house...probably unlimited amount of practice time..since he had just retired. Sadly, diabetes took those wonderful eyes, and later his life.
I have always been facinated by the old-time 1000yd. matches of Creedmoor & Wimbledon. I have a book with detailed information on these matches & dimensioned drawings of the huge chilled cast-iron targets they used. The bull was steel..and gave a distinctive ring..as opposed to the dull clunk of the iron..What I would give to be able to witness those far off rings.
Since my home range is limited to 100yds..I scaled those 1000yd targets to 1/10 size. the 10 ring is 3.6" in dia. Looking thru irons, it looks like a pencil dot out there. 200yds. would give a more realistic feel... what wth wind and mirage, and they could easily be scaled for such a distance.
I printed them on heavy paper..both the early square, and later round bulls.
Last summer, I used a customized BSA 12/15 match rifle, stocked in English walnut & re-barreled with a 30" heavy 1" at muzzle barrel made by H.M. Pope in 1930. brl. has scope blks, but I used the BSA adj. appature rear, & Watson interchangeable appature front.
Shooting prone, with & without sling..I was able to keep most in the black..but this rifle is heavy! even with sling, I found I had to lay rifle down after each shot..got to get in better shape!
I was even thinking of contorting my old carcase into one of them fancy creedmoor back positions!..Have to watch the toes!

alan
August 20, 2012, 10:59 PM
4EVERM-14, or Dave:

I guess we all come to that point, though being quite far removed from being a “kid”, “old man” would be more accurate, perhaps I should take up the 22. I have two of them one an H & R 5200, a heavy, single shot target rifle, the other being a Mossberg tubular feed “target rifle”, which I have shot now and then, it's a lightweight.

Haven't shot rifle competition in quite a while, can't really remember when last I did, and I'm these days down to two bolt action rifles, those defined as 30 caliber, either 30-06, my first choice or a close second, the 7.62mm NATO or .308 Win if you prefer, both having been converted to left hand operation. I never could see sights with my right eye, and reached over the stock with Model 70's for a long time. Such action used to draw the occasiponal odd look. If all else fails, there is always IPSC competition, though I shoot a pistol to slowly to do much good. Lots of fun though, and one needn't carry half a ton of “stuff around either.

Take care.

alan
August 20, 2012, 11:08 PM
Ideal Tool :

From what I've read of the type of long range shooting you mentioned, they would fire a shot, then cock an ear toward the target and listen for the "thump".

Seems as if the "back position" would have been quite unforfortable but who knows.