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View Full Version : Best honest 100 yard group?


troopcom
July 21, 2012, 11:03 PM
What is HONESTLY your best 100 yard five shot group with an German or Yugo Capture K98 8mm Mauser in original condition with iron sights out to 100yards? I just want to hear from the Mauser clan on this one.

Here's mine: Yugo Capture K98, five shot groups.
At 25 they were all touching. 1-2" at 50. 3-3 1/2" at 100.
Note: I was at a firing range at the 100 yard bench. The rifle was rested in a Case Gaurd rifle rest. Not nearly as stable as a Caldwell Lead Sled, but pretty stable. My eyes are not what they used to be and 100 was very difficult to keep the front sight in the same general area for each shot.

P.S. Please dont give me the B.S. line that I've read in other forums; "I shot under an inch at 100 iron sights with mine". :rolleyes:
If you can do that then you should be on the front lines fighting for America.

Jo6pak
July 22, 2012, 09:14 AM
I had cataract surgery a few months back and about 2 weeks ago I took out my Yugo K98.

I shot some 4-5" groups at 100 yards, shooting prone using my shooting kit and a rolled up gun case as a rest.

It's not much to brag about, but I was quite pleased with the results considering I had pretty much given up on old rifles with iron sights before my surgery.

troopcom
July 24, 2012, 11:12 PM
I had cataract surgery a few months back and about 2 weeks ago I took out my Yugo K98.
I shot some 4-5" groups at 100 yards, shooting prone using my shooting kit and a rolled up gun case as a rest.

Very good for having eye surgery. I have never had eye surgery and consider that very good groups! I went out today and shot my best 100 yard group, 2 1/2" from a rest. Sometimes its difficult to put the front sight back in the same spot after the recoil. Even from a rest it is difficult.

wpsdlrg
July 25, 2012, 06:43 PM
Well, whether you like it or not, I used to shoot 1 to 1.25" groups, at 100 yards, with my Yugo M48b, regularly. The stock was in original military configuration, BUT glass-bedded by me (I developed a way to glass-bed these rifles successfully, even with the military stock).....the sights were irons, BUT a somewhat special configuration I developed (a front aperture sight, somewhat like a small globe sight, with the rear sight a U-notch to match the size of the aperture).....and my hand loads, BUT using pulled 198 grain FMJBT Yugo surplus military bullets.

So, you see, it CAN be done.

The best I could ever do with the standard military sights on the gun and with surplus ammo, was around 3" or more. Hand loads cut that to roughly 2" or so. Glass bedding the action and changing the sights made the rest of the difference. And, of course, I am talking about shooting from a bench, with the rifle in a rested position - not standing/ off-hand or something like that.

warningshot
July 25, 2012, 11:44 PM
Russian capture Yugo 8mm beat-up to manure mistreated barrel corrosion rusted milsurp with 8mm ammo that has been loosely stored in the rat infested meat locker basement since 1947; that one? I have a few myself. Lots of fun to shoot. I wouldn't complain with 4 moa.

Scorch
July 26, 2012, 03:00 PM
I have owned several 98s, most would shoot 3"-4" from the bench, I had one that would group a little over 2" from a bench. There is a lot of play in the rear sight on those beasts.

troopcom
July 26, 2012, 04:43 PM
wpsdlrg Quoted:
Well, whether you like it or not, I used to shoot 1 to 1.25" groups, at 100 yards, with my Yugo M48b, regularly.....stock was in original military configuration, BUT glass-bedded by me...sights were irons, BUT a somewhat special configuration I developed...

So yes wpsdlrg I can see that it can be done "WITH MODIFICATIONS".

Notice: I wanted to know what the "BEST 100 YARD GROUP" was "IN ORIGINAL CONDITION". Look at my first posting! Didn't say anything about switching out the sights or glass bedding the stock or any modifications. There is no doubt those groups are possible with modern modifications, but the the fun for me is shooting it in original condition.

wpsdlrg
July 26, 2012, 06:09 PM
I am well aware of what you posted....and of the intent of your post. I merely included more information as an FYI, for anyone who is interested. Notice I DID answer your question, albeit in the second paragraph of my post.

So sorry - I should have posted that answer in the first paragraph - then you wouldn't have had to strain to read the entire post, I suppose.

Ooops.

:rolleyes:

troopcom
July 26, 2012, 08:07 PM
wpsdlrg Quoted:

Well, whether you like it or not,

Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it!;)
If I responded to someones question I would be a little more polite about how I responded. I would not start a paragraph "Well, whether you like it or not...". That's just not the way I would start a paragraph. I'm not a smart a$$ at all, and I came to this forum to make friends and gain more knowledge about the hobby I love. It's not a competition to me, but to some it may be. All I know is if it sounds like a duck....well I'll let you finish the rest. ;)
Yes you did answer my question in the second paragraph I was just trying to get some info on original rifles, not modified ones.
Anyway, I'm not here to start an argument and I see that you have found another post of mine to comment on so I will close. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all.

Wyosmith
July 26, 2012, 08:17 PM
Several years ago I owned a pre-war "Standard Modell" in 7X57. I wanted to make myself a 338-06 on it, but never did.
It had a good barrel in it and I used that barrel to build a custom rifle for my brother in law. His rifle shoots so well you'd think I was lying if I told you what he and i have done with it.
Anyway, several years later I took that old Mauser and put a new barrel in it. the barrel was made by McGowen in Montana. I copied the original contours so it would drop into the stock. I took an awful long way around to come back to where I started. I did not use the original sights, but I installed a Lyman 17A front globe sight and a Williams "Foolproof" rear sigh on the receiver. Using my best handloads that rifle would shoot under an inch at 100. I did it many times and so did several friends of mine so it was not just a fluke.

I think this story may be relevant only because the original barrel was at least as accurate as the one I replaced it with. I know because I made a good deer rifle for my Brother in law and zeroed the rifle for him with my loads before I am my wife gave it to him for his birthday. It went to him with a Leupold 3X-9X scope. I was actually shocked to see how well it shot .

Later when I returned the Standard Modell to near military condition the only thing that was not in "issued condition" when I did shoot those sub MOA targets with that rifle were the sights and the new barrel. I am sure I could have done the same thing with its original barrel now, but I didn’t think that when I took it out of the action. I should have tried it first I guess………..

So I know it's not common, but a good Mauser in military condition can be sub MOA accurate now and then. Most would shoot about 2” with good ammo when they were brand new, but every now and then you may get one that will shoot under 1 MOA.

aarondhgraham
July 27, 2012, 09:31 AM
Now I'm going to have to clean up the old Mauser,,,
And take the old fraulein out for a dance.

Maybe this weekend,,,
I'll post the target when I do.

Aarond

.

wpsdlrg
July 27, 2012, 05:35 PM
"P.S. Please dont give me the B.S. LINE that I've read in other forums; "I shot under an inch at 100 iron sights with mine"


Hmmm......point taken. You sir, certainly are the master of NICE words in your posts. My horrible, insulting, impolite "whether you like it or not" reference was directed at that very phrase.

You want polite ? Don't start your career on this forum by talking down to those who have experience.....when you obviously are a novice. Be polite - then you might GET polite in return.

Jo6pak
July 27, 2012, 08:22 PM
I am well aware of what you posted....and of the intent of your post

Are you sure??
I'll post it so you can re-read it

What is HONESTLY your best 100 yard five shot group with an German or Yugo Capture K98 8mm Mauser in original condition with iron sights out to 100yards?

The OP specifically stated his criteria for the thread. You did not follow the intent. You should have omitted the first paragragh from your first post. You were answering a question that was not asked.

And as for the "P.S. Please dont give me the B.S. LINE that I've read in other forums; "I shot under an inch at 100 iron sights with mine."

Did you not see the little :rolleyes: <sarcasm at the end of the sentence??


Just sayin':rolleyes:

troopcom
July 27, 2012, 11:34 PM
Thanks Jo6pak.

Well I went out again the other day and shot around 3" from a rest. I let a couple of my co-workers shoot the rifle to see how well they could do. Both co-workers shoot pretty well. They could get around 3" groups from it using Yugo 70's surplus ammo. I think that's about as good as she shoots. I want to try one of my other mausers and compare the two. Its just finding the time! Who created all this work to be done anyway? LOL!:D

Jo6pak quoted: ...had cataract surgery a few months back...

By the way how are those eyes doing?

Jo6pak
July 28, 2012, 07:21 AM
Eyes are doing well, thanks for asking. I only need glasses for reading now.:)

I'm gonna try to get the Kar.98 back to the range tomorrow and get some pics of groups.

Wyosmith
July 28, 2012, 09:08 AM
I think its necessary here to point out a fact;
Sights do not shoot. Guns shoot. And good accurate ammo shoots.
If we take a bench rest rifle and lock it in a machine rest and then remove its scope and fire a 5 shot string, that string is going to be just as accurate as it would have been with the scope on the rifle.

If you can align your weapon on the same axis every time it's going to shoot up to the potential of the ammo and to the potential of it's own accuracy limitations.

Yes, it's possible to shoot MOA and less with iron sights. MANY competitive shooters have done it. Here is a pic of the very best I ever did. Now I have only shot a group with irons this small one time in my life (which is why I kept this target) but shooting at or a bit under an inch with good competitive rifles was not uncommon for me when I was in my 20s clear through my late 40s.

This was shot with a highly tuned AR-15 in 6.8 SPC at 100 meters. It measures well under 1/2" center to center. Only 4 shots however. I had a 10 shot mag and installed a new rear sight on the rifle. It took me 6 shots to touch the corner of the square. My spotter said "come up one click and left one click and shoot me a group."
That's what I did, and this is how well the rifle and ammo shot.

So to put a rest to the debate above about "dont tell me about shooting MOA"-----
Yes it's not only possible, but it's not even noteworthy in the cases of many shooters.

If the shooter has the rifle, the skill and the eyes to do it, a rifle can shoot MOA and less without a scope. Scopes don't shoot!


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/szihn/Interesting%20things/68at100.jpg

troopcom
July 28, 2012, 05:01 PM
Wyosmith quoted:
This was shot with a highly tuned AR-15 in 6.8 SPC at 100 meters. It measures well under 1/2" center to center.

Wyosmith,
That is very, very good shooting indeed, but I think some people missed my point in the opening of this thread. I believe you when you say "with a highly tuned AR-15 in 6.8 SPC", but that is not an orginal K98 Mauser. Maybe I should have been more clear in my opening statements. My point is, is that I have read where some people state that they shoot under 1" at 100 yards with an all original K98 8mm Mauser with just iron sights. My original post was only for K98 Mausers. I understand that modern firearms with modern ammo can exceed the capability of the old Mausers, but I would like to get an idea of what an average 100 yard group from an All Original K98 Mauser would be. I am a pretty good shooter, but would never say it is impossible, but not at all common. I am what you might call a realist.
Again, we're just talking K98 Mausers here because this is the Curio and Relics forum.


"Some people actually read the signs while others just look at 'em"

Jo6pak
July 29, 2012, 08:26 AM
I don't know why the original post of this thread is so difficult for some people to understand:confused:

Quit making it so damn complicated, it's a simple question.

What is HONESTLY your best 100 yard five shot group with an German or Yugo Capture K98 8mm Mauser in original condition with iron sights out to 100yards? I just want to hear from the Mauser clan on this one.


I mean really, could it be any more clear?

@Wyosmith= Thanks for the "education", but once again it's answering a question that was not asked.

BerdanSS
July 30, 2012, 12:20 AM
I've shot mine at 100 and 200 yards. Complete honesty at 100 yards with PP match grade ammunition, I can hit a 6" paper pie plate standing supported every time.

200 yards? I've only got to shoot it at that distance one time so far:( the only thing I had with me at that time was some REALLY crappy, corroded surplus. Sitting at the bench off a half filled ALICE pack I could keep it in "kill zones" on those brown cardboard torso and head target backers most ranges provide.

That rifle is the 98 I shoot the most. A very nice (in my opinion, but I'm a little biased :D) 1943 German, still has all markings in-tacked, including several "black spiders" both on the stock and on the metal. No electric pencil or import marks. Oberndorf finished barrel. I'd wager I could get tighter groups but the trigger on this one (unlike my others) is ungodly HEAVY, very smooth and crisp....but heavy as hell. No one else loves their old "Schlachtross" enough to post a picture?:)

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/GMApproved/100_2809.jpghttp://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/GMApproved/100_2806.jpg

troopcom
July 30, 2012, 10:16 PM
Berdan SS that is one beauty of a K98 you have there!

All I have shot out of my Mauser is corrosive ammo with the exception of some Remington Round nose. The Remington shot like crap and just peppered the target. Probably an 8" or better group with the Remington and I don't know why? Surplus ammo has been the least expensive, but it has pretty much dried up. I want to get some of the 90's manufactured Yugo sniper grade ammo to see if my groups will tighten up.

BerdanSS
July 31, 2012, 09:34 PM
Thanks....I't one of my favorite C&Rs. I believe at some point the stock was stripped and rubber with tongue or linseed oil but it dose not appear to have been sanded or altered in any other way. all the numbers are matching except for the bolt#s and the safety. No front sight hood either when I bought it (for $213 out the door:D) but I picked one up at the Army Surplus (he's a mauser guy and keeps a lot of German surplus in stock:cool:)

I've had a lot of good luck with the Prvi 196 FMJ and 198 match...If you can find it. Aim surplus has Prvi 196grn PPU Soft point in stock...I've used that before also and it's decent. I get the match grade Prvi form the aforementioned army surplus about 45 min from my house. He gets it in random sized lots ranging from just six or seven boxes sometimes, to several cases other times. Usually sells between $14-$17 a box for the match stuff depending on how much comes in at one time. I've been wanting to start cooking my own recipe for a while now though.

troopcom
August 1, 2012, 06:06 PM
Thanks Berdan I will try some of that Privi match. I would like to see what it will do. My mauser is worn at the chamber end, but still shoots really good! I have been told that both are important for accuracy, but I think its all with the muzzle condition.

BerdanSS
August 1, 2012, 07:01 PM
Is yours counter bored? I've never checked the throat erotion on mine, to be honest I'm not really sure how to do it:o (other than seeing it obviously worn with a bore scope) Do they make an 8x57 TE gauge or is there a trick to it?

In the process of looking for an old beater with a good action to make a 98k Sniper clone with (I don't want to tinker with my nice one). Re finish the metal, stock and get a new barrel and a set of reproduction towers for it. Original scope maybe:D

rebs
August 1, 2012, 08:33 PM
yes are doing well, thanks for asking. I only need glasses for reading now.

Glad to hear your eyes are doing well. It is amazing what they can do today with the cataract surgery, etc.
Enjoy your new vision without glasses.

troopcom
August 3, 2012, 04:59 PM
BerdanSS asked: Is yours counter bored? I've never checked the throat erotion on mine, to be honest I'm not really sure how


Mine is not counterbored and the from the muzzle end it looks great. I'm really not sure how to check for throat erosion either. I have never used a bore scope, but if you look through from the chamber end the lands are faint at the very start, but look pretty sharp the rest of the way down the barrel. I guess that means its been shot a lot, but I could have been made that way, I don't know.:confused:
It still holds what I believe to be a good group with surplus ammo.(3 to 3 1/2 at 100 yards) It shoots the surplus better than some factory ammo. I guess it was just made to shoot the surplus stuff. I'm not sure if the Yugos put a new barrel on it, or if it still has the German one.

Heavy Metal 1
August 3, 2012, 11:33 PM
"P.S. Please dont give me the B.S. line that I've read in other forums; "I shot under an inch at 100 iron sights with mine".
If you can do that then you should be on the front lines fighting for America."

I have never done that with my K98, but have done under an inch many times with both of my Swedish Mausers, my Czech Mauser and my M17 Remington. You can believe it or not. Can I do it every time? No, but I can do it often, often enough to know it's not just luck. Don't be so hasty to call BS because you may not be able to do something. 30 years ago before I really got into the shooting sports in a big way and only shot casually, I would have not belived it possible for someone to shoot minute of angle with open sights. Training, practice, concentration and a good rifle can do some interesting work.

troopcom
August 4, 2012, 09:25 AM
Heavy Metal 1 quoted: but have done under an inch many times with both of my Swedish Mausers, my Czech Mauser and my M17 Remington. You can believe it or not.

Heavy Metal 1, I'm so proud of you for shooting those under 1" groups with something other than an all original K98 mauser, but did you read the the topic AT ALL??? I'll post it again for you in bold lettering! Yes I'm calling BS on the iron sights with a K98 until someone proves me wrong. If they do, then outstanding! Would you please take the time to actually read a topic before you post a reply?

What is HONESTLY your best 100 yard five shot group with an German or Yugo Capture K98 8mm Mauser in original condition with iron sights out to 100yards? I just want to hear from the Mauser clan on this one.



"Some people actually read the signs while others just look at 'em"

Heavy Metal 1
August 4, 2012, 10:20 AM
Yes I read it. Did you read my response carefully? I said I never accomplished 1 inch groups with my K98, but have with a few of my other Mausers. (Yes,yes I know my response is not confined to K98/Yugo) The Czech is a 98 action. I know it is not a K98. I realize the Swedes are 96 actions. My point was a partial answer to one part of your question refuting your apparant disbelief that one inch groups are impossible with originally configured open sight rifles.

So as to answer your question within the narrow parameters of K98 or Yugo rifles; no, I have not been able to get my K98 to shoot that well. Based on my experience with open sighted rifles I believe some people my be able to.

I know that my M17 is not a K98, but I shot a group so small with that I would be tempted to call BS on it if someone told it to me and I never witnessed it!:)

If you ever find yourself in SW Oregon give me a PM several days before and we can head to the range. I'll bring my non K98s!

troopcom
August 9, 2012, 09:14 PM
Thanks to everyone who responded. I really enjoy hearing from everyone.

Even the ones who got a little off subject!;)









"Some people actually read the signs while others just look at 'em"