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HistoryJunkie
July 11, 2012, 11:12 PM
I've been looking into getting a .223/5.56 semi-automatic rifle for quite some time. I'm not really very familiar with .223 rifles, so I'm hoping you guys could help me with a recommendation.

- I'm on a fairly low budget, I'd say less than $900.
- I particularly do not care for AR pattern rifles. I have handled a LOT of them at different firearms stores, and they all feel too... plastic.

With that being said, I am not familiar with any other semi-automatic weapons design in .223/5.56 being fairly accurate, which I would also appreciate.

I do not wish to put optics on said rifle any time in the near future, I like the idea of getting proficient with iron sights.

I do have some experience in shooting. I already own a .22LR Remington 597, a Mosin-Nagant. I will appreciate all your suggestions.

zxcvbob
July 11, 2012, 11:27 PM
I bought a really nice walnut-stock Ruger Mini-14 back in February from CDNN for less than $700, and they had plastic stock versions for $100 less.
http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=99c3876c30b42968d4190988b&id=35950fa7a2&e=23781dc72b

Not sure what they are selling them for now. I haven't put a scope on it yet so I can't really comment on the accuracy (I'm not that good a shot anyway, but I'm working on it, and 5.56 is fun to shoot)

kilimanjaro
July 11, 2012, 11:50 PM
The Mini-14 is a great platform, and available at Big 5 outlets for $800. You can find them used for $550 and up. WalMart also carries the Mini-14, don't know the price.

You can get a dozen magazines at the gun shows for about $100, and ammo is plentiful.

I've run about 7,500 rounds through mine, it's still in top condition.

The sights are good, and the wood stock can be replaced by a lot of after-market composite stocks. Choate makes a very good setup.

Quentin2
July 12, 2012, 12:03 AM
When looking for a 5.56 caliber rifle I wouldn't discount the AR so quickly. The platform has so much to offer, nothing else compares for the price. Look at one with MOE handguards and the CTR or STR stock, the plastic is rock solid and I bet you'll come away with a new appreciation.

mohr308
July 12, 2012, 02:50 AM
I know what you mean by the plastic feel of an AR, thats why I bought a RockRiverArms Elite Operator 2 in 5.56, I had to get the AWB model but who cares! Its a very solid rifle a little over $900 and DOES NOT have that plastic feel. Don't shy away from the AR until you handle some good ones, they are out there!

dos0711
July 12, 2012, 04:20 AM
I wasn't too sure about having and shooting an AR-15...now it's one of my favorite rifles to shoot! I have a Windham Weaponry MPC and it is a nice shooter for $799.

rickyrick
July 12, 2012, 04:25 AM
Mini14

madcratebuilder
July 12, 2012, 05:49 AM
Get some range time with a few different AR15's that "they all feel too... plastic" well go away. Light weight, superior ergonomics and ease of modification makes the AR platform a winner.

misnomerga
July 12, 2012, 07:14 AM
When I was handling the S&W M&P Sport AR15 I kept asking the proprietor if he was sure the charging handle wasn't polymer or plastic. It sure felt that way to me. I am also in the market considering a AR. Debating the issue of want and need. Saw a Rock River AR15 being offered by a private seller for $600. It was 1o years old, if that makes a difference. The S&W is brand new, internet delivered to my door for $680 or from a local dealer for $750 walk out price. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Botswana
July 12, 2012, 07:48 AM
Get some range time with a few different AR15's that "they all feel too... plastic" well go away. Light weight, superior ergonomics and ease of modification makes the AR platform a winner.

Easy there, Tiger. Not everyone wants an AR15. Kind of like not everyone wants a Glock. Different strokes and all that.

Kind of curious about the recommendations. The OP and I have almost similar requirements, except I am looking at AR15's but can't get on the DI bandwagon. Trying to find something cheap but doesn't use DI is a tough combination.

amd6547
July 12, 2012, 08:32 AM
The AR is the natural front runner for a 5.56 rifle. Everything else available may approach the AR in some areas, but not all. They exist mainly for those with some psychological/philosophical objection to the AR. But none are superior in any way.
The objection to DI is particularly humorous....it works great.

Botswana
July 12, 2012, 08:56 AM
Yeah, not going to derail from the OP's intention, but keep in mind people are entitled to their own opinion. Not everyone will agree about DI and it's advantages/disadvantages. Anyone is entitled to find what works best for them.

A lot of hostility just because someone is not an AR15 fan. Not everyone is.

zxcvbob
July 12, 2012, 10:04 AM
I'm gonna hate myself for asking this cuz it's probably obvious. What's "DI"?

rickyrick
July 12, 2012, 10:21 AM
Direct impingement, it's the standard gas system on an AR. It's often debated that it's dirty and adding more moving parts of a piston system is better.

dos0711
July 12, 2012, 10:36 AM
To get back on topic, if you don't like the idea of an AR type rifle, The Ruger Mini-14 is the natural choice in my book. Well built and has the look and feel of a more traditional rifle if that is what your looking for.

Botswana
July 12, 2012, 10:48 AM
What about the M+M AK platform in 5.56mm?

Is it any good? I've seen it south of $600.

zxcvbob
July 12, 2012, 10:50 AM
To get back on topic, if you don't like the idea of an AR type rifle, The Ruger Mini-14 is the natural choice in my book. Well built and has the look and feel of a more traditional rifle if that is what your looking for.
And the old ones have a reputation for terrible accuracy (but good reliabliity.) Ruger fixed the accuracy problem in the newer 580 and later series; I don't know if they are as accurate as an AR with a floating barrel. (Ruger does make a "target model" 14, but you can only shoot .223 ammo and not 5.56 in the target models)

arrtvandelay
July 12, 2012, 11:48 AM
You absolutely can't go wrong with a 581 or above series mini 14. I have had a PSA m4gery and and actually have a "real" m4 (colt 6920) on its way to my local FFL. I still prefer my mini to the ar15. I just like the more traditional rifle feel of the mini.

That said, I bought both. I love shooting both platforms. In my experience (just a few hundred rds through both a PSA m4gery and the mini), both platforms are very accurate and reliable. Actually, my only hiccup was within the first 3 rds through the mini. I had a FTF on the 3rd shot out of its stock 20rd mag. I attribute that to the gun being brand new, or the mag needed a little breakin. Regardless, both rifles have been flawless since.

If you don't want to learn or particularly like the ar15 platform, the mini 14 is your next best bet in .223/5.56.

Someone mentioned the m+m ak style rifles being available in 5.56. I haven't seen or read any thing on those, but I'd certainly be interested in one. I've had an m10-762 on my wish list for a while..,

Yung.gunr
July 12, 2012, 11:12 PM
Looks like I may be the first/only to suggest a Saiga. If you can find a stock one in the "Sporting" configuration they are ~ $300.

That's what I went with and I am very happy with it.

Ignition Override
July 12, 2012, 11:34 PM
Saigas are built by Kalashnikov.

Yung.gunr: I'm surprised that nobody else mentioned these.

SDF880
July 13, 2012, 12:30 AM
I really like my Mini-14 but another one in my collection to consider is a Kel-Tec
SU-16 series rifle. I have a SU-16C and it has been absolutely flawless. The SU-16's are lightweight plus the C model folds and can even fire while folded.

SDF880

Botswana
July 13, 2012, 07:14 AM
I really like my Mini-14 but another one in my collection to consider is a Kel-Tec
SU-16 series rifle. I have a SU-16C and it has been absolutely flawless. The SU-16's are lightweight plus the C model folds and can even fire while folded.


Finding one would be the trick.

Crow Hunter
July 13, 2012, 08:09 AM
Options in semi auto:

1. AR

Advantages:

-Caliber change with just an upper swap
-Better stock sights (easier to adjust, 2 aperatures)
-Easier to fix if something does go wrong (don't have to send it to factory)
-Many options for customization
-Lower cost, readily available magazines
-Better ergonomics
-Easy to mount different types of optics with removable carry handle
-Carbines come with an adjustable stock
-Used in combat for the last 40 years

Disadvantages:

-No folding stock (I prefer collapsible)
-Direct Impingement (for those that have a problem with it, I don't)
-More "plastic feel"
-Magazines are viewed as flimsy compared to other designs
-Sightline over the bore is higher

2. Mini-14

Advantages:

-More conventional rifle feel (If this is something you want, I don't)
-Magazines are viewed as sturdier (I debate this because in the AR you can get HK magazines and SA80 mags, both are steel like the Ruger and both are less reliable than the standard STANAG aluminum mag, but it is the "internet view")
-Piston operation (if you need this)
-Folding stock available as option
-Ranch rifles come with scope rings to mount a conventional magnified optic
-Viewed as more durable on the internet (I have read the opposite from LEO armorers who have actually had to deal with a large number of them, but it is the internet view, search M4Carbine.net or Lightfighter.net)
-Often lower cost

Disadvantages:

-Not user serviceable without very specialized tools and Ruger does not sell replacement parts to civilians.
-Less ergonomic
-Viewed as less accurate by the internet, I have only experience with 1 of them, and for what it is worth, this was true. I don't know about newer ones.
-More expensive magazines
-Less available for customization
-No military use of any consequence (unless you count the A-team or Bermuda:D)
-Sights are not as good, nor are they as easily adjustable
-Rock in magazines are MUCH harder to use from prone and low cover

3. AK in .223

Advantages:

-AK are believed to be more reliable
-Folding stock available
-Often lower cost
-Very overgassed, usually will overcome any variation in ammo and alot of dirt.
-Simple to take apart and field strip (except extractor)
-Quite a few accessories available for customizing
-Extensive military use in the 7.62 & 5.45 forms. Very little use in 5.56 (Poland Beryl maybe?)
-Stamped steel construction

Disadvantages:

-.223 AK's are not all the same (everyone uses a different magazine)
-Not viewed as being as reliable as the AK-47 in 7.62
-Difficult for user servicing. (Contrary to internet lore, AK's can't be built with a rock in a cave nor can you just replace parts like you can with an AR. You need tools and you need gauges to check headspace, not every AK part will fit every AK type. Chinese don't fit Bulgarian and neither will fit Russian. Try to replace the ejector....;))
-Poor sights. Particularly for older eyes
-Less ergonomic
-Rock in magazines without a bolt hold open (Even harder than the Mini)
-Harder to mount optics or other accessories
-Heavier than Mini and AR/SCAR

4. SCAR

Advantages:

-Everthing the AR has except accessories and parts
-Piston operation
-Folding stock
-Bolt/carrier/extractor almost identical to AR but better designed (25,000 round bolt life vs 8,000 - 10,000 AR)
-Some military use (only 800 or so were ever fielded), much military testing (several million rounds).

Disadvantages:

-If you think the AR feels plasticy, the SCAR IS plastic....:D
-More expensive parts, some skill needed for some changes.
-Very expensive
-Some problems with damaging certain optics
-Only STANAG magazines, no PMags or other Non-STANAG mags that will work in ARs.
-Even higher sightline than the AR

5. Bushmaster ACR

Advantages:

-Similar to SCAR

Disadvantages:

-Not as well respected as SCAR for reliability
-Apparently Bushmaster is hard to deal with on parts/accessories

There are other options: Daewoo, ACR, FN FNC, maybe some others. Most are not as readily available as these.

These are of course, my opinions and worth exactly what you paid for them.:D

rickyrick
July 13, 2012, 10:11 AM
I don't think the ATeam or Bermuda uses the mini14 anymore. Lol

But in all fairness, the mini is more than rugged enough for the average guy and, you shouldnt need any parts for the life of the gun.

Botswana
July 13, 2012, 10:18 AM
Good summary, Crow Hunter.

Probably worth mentioning that the SCAR and ACR also go for 2 to 3 times any other platform.

Interesting write up on the AK as well, since I have been looking at those. I suspected that going outside 7.62mm WP might not get the same results.

toppermost
July 13, 2012, 01:18 PM
The Mini-14 is a great platform, and available at Big 5 outlets for $800.

Where are you?? I see new Mini-14's in the 600 - 700 range every where I shop.

armoredman
July 13, 2012, 04:00 PM
The OP didn't say what range he was going to be practicing for, so if it's 100 yards or less, as a get-used-to-the-caliber rifle, a Mini-14 will work just fine. The never NRA version with the shorter heavier barrel is supposed to have superior accuracy over the older ones. I got rid of mine for various reasons, but one was it was sub par in the accuracy department for me as a hand loader. BUT, for someone who ISN'T trying to make 1 hole groups at 200 yards, a Mini-14 would probably be just fine, and well within budget. It will also last quite a while, being a Ruger.
The AR is the natural front runner for a 5.56 rifle. Everything else available may approach the AR in some areas, but not all. They exist mainly for those with some psychological/philosophical objection to the AR. But none are superior in any way.
I cannot stand the AR system, and it's a personal issue with me, and that dadgum SPROINGGGG! in my ears every time I fired it. I qualified with one at 500 yards YEARS ago, and worked on them in Gunners' Mate "A" school, (so happy to find M-14s when I got shipboard!), and I just don't like them. I don't consider myself to have psychological issues, and don't appreciate being labeled as such by someone who knows me not.;)
If the AR-15 was the end all/be all of the 5.56mm rifle, the other would simply no longer exist, and I do believe there are many others still in service today.
My personal favorite 5.56mm rifle has nothing in common with AK or AR, not counting the AR magazine adapter kit that was added. :) That does make cheap mags easy to find, but the original magazines work just fine. ;)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/vz%2058%205%2056mm/closeup.jpg

I can't suggest this to the OP as they are currently impossible to find, but will be more available in the future, and base price is over his $900 ceiling.

5.56RifleGuy
July 13, 2012, 05:25 PM
That would be . . .

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/rifles/556-x-45-mm/sa-vz-58-tactical/

Right?

armoredman
July 13, 2012, 05:57 PM
That would be the one, equipped with the AR-15 magwell adapter and the short optics rail plus removable mount, which works well with the Electro Scope I have on it.:cool:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/vz%2058%205%2056mm/vz58newscope2.jpg

Hopefully this will be in full production soon, as I get a lot of buzz on it. Not trying to hijack, just answering the question and pointing out AR's are not the only answer for a 5.56mm rifle. ;)

HistoryJunkie
July 14, 2012, 04:44 PM
Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late response. As to all the post of about ARs... I'd like to have some range time with one, but around my area, there aren't really any rifle ranges around my area. I've held AR models from DPMS to the more expensive $1200 models from different manufacturers. I didn't care for any of them. I'd be interested in information about M + M 5.56 rifles and maybe the Saiga, but anyone have any idea about the accuracy of these? That's the main reason I'm having a hard time deciding.

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 14, 2012, 06:03 PM
You should think about a Bushmaster such as this one http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/60/products_id/61658/Rifles/Bushmaster/Bushmaster%20A1%20Semi-Automatic%20223%20Remington/5.56%20NATO%2030+1%20Ca/
And if you don't like the feel of plastic get a wood stock to replace the plastic ones such as this http://www.precisionfirearms.com/19.html
You don't sound like you need a rail system, but if you get the urge to hang more crap on an your gun than a christmas tree, just get a rail system. The ar platform is naturally more accurate than the mini 14. The mini 14 is great, but the ar15 is better in many ways. Also, if you decide you want to change calibers, just change the upper.

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 14, 2012, 06:42 PM
Oh i forgot to mention that the mini 14 (just like it's big bro the m1a) is notorious at dinging up brass so if you reload it's an issue, assuming you can find the brass. Mine throws mine like 20 feet away, and with enough practice you can be able to hit the poor sap next to you.

5.56RifleGuy
July 14, 2012, 06:59 PM
If you are looking for great accuracy, you probably don't want a saiga. They aren't terrible, but they aren't known for great accuracy. I guess the same could be said for the mini though.

Do you like something with a pistol grip or a standard stock?

LockedBreech
July 14, 2012, 07:08 PM
Gotta love a gun forum. OP asks for no AR-patten rifles, and a good half of the responses are "No, you're wrong, reconsider the AR."

OP, I love the AR, but since you do not, I suggest the Ruger Mini-14 series.

It's a bit off the map, 5.45 instead of 5.56, but also consider an AK-74 by Arsenal.

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 14, 2012, 08:03 PM
Gotta love a gun forum. OP asks for no AR-patten rifles, and a good half of the responses are "No, you're wrong, reconsider the AR."

I suggested that he reconsider because he was shying away from the ar for an easily fixable reason. If he just doesn't like the ar than he doesn't like it.

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 14, 2012, 08:34 PM
I forgot to mention the hk93. I love it, not as much as my ar, but i love it. The real "HK" hk93 ar hard to find, but vector arms makes one at a reasonable price. Still has some polymer parts, but feels a bit sturdier than a stock ar. you can also find some wood parts for it, if you prefer the feel of wood, but the ar still has less plastic on it than the hk93.

HistoryJunkie
July 14, 2012, 09:26 PM
I have considered the Saiga, and I know it's not highly ranked in the accuracy department :P I want something that I could expect around 3" moa or so as a requirement, preferably lower. My main problem with the Saiga isn't the accuracy. I hear a lot of you say you can get a Saiga for $300, and I would definitely buy one for that price. Around here in Northern IL(not Chicagoland area), a stock Saiga, if you can even find one in .223/5.56, will cost you $450 - $500. I have fired a Saiga .223/5.56 in stock configuration and I felt it was a pretty nice rifle.

As to everyone telling me about ARs, I am open to your reasoning. Unlike a lot of people, I won't fly off the wall if someone suggests an AR, as long as the said party has something useful to say and isn't pushy. As to pistol grip vs standard configuration, I'm not partial either way. I have shot both and don't really have a preference towards either that would make or break the deal.

Also, I intend to get a reloading set-up for .223/5.56 in the near future if I purchased a rifle.

Whoever posted about the HK-93, I've seen Century Arms versions of that, not held them. Read some pretty bad reviews about the roller system needing to be replaced right out of the box. I imagine Vector Arms' quality is much better about that. How is the accuracy on your HK-93?

snakestrikeace
July 14, 2012, 11:17 PM
If you are not look for an AR my advice would be go for the mini-14 the accuracy issues that many have a problem with are pretty much a non-issue with the 581 and later series.

They also have superb reliability and functioning and sit well within your price range.

5.56RifleGuy
July 15, 2012, 01:48 AM
I don't think that 3 moa is out of the question for a saiga. I think nowadays the saigas trade for more like $400. I haven't seen one for $300 in a while.

http://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns?manufacturer=103

They also have one in a 20 inch version if that is more to your liking.

HistoryJunkie
July 15, 2012, 02:40 AM
Do you think there would be any advantage to a 20" barrel on an AK pattern rifle?

5.56RifleGuy
July 15, 2012, 02:47 AM
Your sight radius would be a little longer and sometimes that makes them a little easier to shoot. I guess you might get a little more velocity depending on the load you are using. I think its more of a personal preference thing though.

Crow Hunter
July 15, 2012, 09:30 AM
I don't know about IL law, but are you sure that you can legally purchase unadulterated version of the rifles that people have mentioned?

That could put a different twist on things.

If "Evil Black Rifle" features are strictly limited, but magazines aren't, I would go Mini-14.

If magazines are also limited/banned and you have access to pre-ban magazines, I would go AR-15 due to the much larger pool of pre-ban magazines.

The AK won't have any available and the Ruger pre-bans will be very rare and probably expensive.

If you have no laws restricting you, go with whatever feels best to you and makes you the most confident.

Bushmaster1313
July 15, 2012, 09:31 AM
Buy American

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1023.jpg

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 15, 2012, 12:22 PM
Whoever posted about the HK-93, I've seen Century Arms versions of that, not held them. Read some pretty bad reviews about the roller system needing to be replaced right out of the box. I imagine Vector Arms' quality is much better about that. How is the accuracy on your HK-93?

First off, Do not buy a century arms hk93 clone.
I have owned a vector arms hk93 clone, and i currently own a real hk93. Mine is quite accurate. It is a bit heavier than most ar15s out there. They were very rugged and reliable, and built to last. The only real problems i have are the mag prices, and the fact that mine ding up brass. The vector arms hk93 is good quality, but if you can find a good used hk93 that is even better. The trigger isn't the best, but it will do what it is designed for. And they look cool, and not everybody has one like they do with ar15s. If you like the hk93s try and find a real H&K hk93 used at a decent price, you might have to do some looking around, but you will eventually find it. They are built to last so used ones ar still pretty nice. The nice thing about the real H&K hk93s is they go up in value if you take good care of it, which is nice if you decide you want a different gun. I sold my vector arms hk93 a few years back, and one of my friends was looking to get rid of his H&K hk93, so i bought it for $1300. So if you can afford it go for the hk. but if not go for the vector arms. Also, did you check out the wood stock and handguard for the ar15, personally i prefer my bushmaster to my hk93.

And if you plan to reload don't get a mini 14 and test fire an hk93 or clone before you buy it, because some hk93s ding up brass, and some don't. The mini 14 will ding up your brass, and throw it so far away... If you are hit with a shell ejected from a mini 14 it actually hurts.

HistoryJunkie
July 15, 2012, 02:38 PM
Yeah, I don't live in an area that restricts any types of weapons other than NFA. I can legally buy any "assault" style weapons, large magazines, etc, without any more difficulty than any other style of firearm. The only areas of IL that really restrict that stuff are by Chicago.

In all reality, I'll probably end up buying an AR-15 with a 20" upper. Just because mags are common and pretty cheap, and so are many other parts. It would also be more likely than other rifles to have decent accuracy. If I can find another decent option though, I'd love to consider that.

Rogervzv
July 15, 2012, 07:47 PM
I also vote for the Mini 14. It is simple, fun to shoot, accurate, and incredibly reliable. Here in the People's Republic of California they go in the high $600s or so. Take a Mini and add the Tech Sight iron sights and you have a first-class carbine.

Here is my review of the Tech Sight sights.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R30KGUE1D3HE6G/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm

armoredman
July 15, 2012, 10:46 PM
See if you can rent/borrow a rifle similar to what you think you want, and try one out. Do you have any friends who have AR, Mini's, HK 93s, or any other rifles posted here? Don't feel you HAVE to accept an AR if it isn't what you want - I didn't ;)
I'll have to try mine side by side with one of the guys I know down here who are very heavy into the AR-15 system. They'll probably eat me alive with the heavily customized/accurized/etc., rifles they have, but it will be worth the fun of doing the shoot. Should we shoot 100 or 300 yards?:confused:
I wish you the best with whatever rifle you choose, and please get some good trigger time behind it - training if you can/want that type of stuff, if not, hey, have a blast. :)

jimdet
August 7, 2012, 04:09 PM
Through the years I have fired the M16, AR15, and AK47 while in Vietnam. I liked the light weight and the accuracy of the M16. I liked the fact that the AK47 seldom jammed even though it's accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. Recently a frie
nd of mine had me shoot his selective fire FN FNC. This gun wins hands down over the others. It combines the accuracy of the M16 along with the reliability of the AK47. If you get the chance to fire one don't pass it by. This is going to be my next gun for sure.

customaquatics
August 7, 2012, 04:24 PM
you can always build one an have the pride of saying that there is nothing like it anywere but yours.

Nine the Ranger
August 7, 2012, 08:37 PM
I can't speak for AKs or ARs but I just picked up a Mini-14 and it just feels right.

I haven't shot it yet but it just feels more natural then the ARs I've held.

HistoryJunkie
August 7, 2012, 09:27 PM
I just ordered a complete AR lower from AIM. It's a polymer lower, I'm just giving it a shot because it's cheap. Gonna order a complete upper for it and snap it together. If nothing else, I'm sure I'll warm up to it after I shoot it a few times. I'll probably learn to like the fact that it's lightweight instead of finding it irritating. We'll see I guess, I'm already committed to it. :P

Justice06RR
August 8, 2012, 04:04 AM
Welcome to the Dark side! You are on your way to building your first EBR - Evil Black Rifle :D

It will be a fun and good learning experience for sure. I'm on my 3rd build now, and the addiction continues.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/eiji81/AR15/DSCI0245.jpg

HistoryJunkie
August 8, 2012, 06:54 PM
For the great photo. I wouldn't mind having 3 more firearms of any make and model :D If I like the 20" configuration that I'm setting up now, I might have to make a 16" as well to keep it company.....

OsOk-308
August 8, 2012, 07:05 PM
There is always the AK in .223, though I'm not positive on the prices for those.

ronl
August 9, 2012, 05:14 PM
I have a New Frontier Armory polymer lower on an AR "coyote gun" and the thing works great. I was going to suggest the Robinson Armament XCR as an alternative, but you have made the choice and I think you'll be happy with it. Everybody ought to have at least one AR in their cabinet anyway.

cookie5
August 9, 2012, 06:59 PM
Try an AR . Usually the people who have tried mine always end up with a smile on their faces. Colts and Brave company Ar15s are the best by far ARs you can get. I have been shooting ARs since 1973.