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SPCMarty308
July 9, 2012, 04:08 PM
So i decided to slug the bore of my M91-30 for reloading purposes. 1/8th egg shaped lead sinker, 1/4th dowel cut into sections, and a soft head dead blow hammer 2lb. I greased the lead with wheel bearing grease. once the lead cleared the muzzle, all seemed to go well until the lead got to the chamber neck. Its now stuck in there, the wooden dowels too, the lead won't budge either way now. I poured some assembly lube down the chamber end hoping it'll seep its way around and free it.

10-96
July 9, 2012, 04:49 PM
Go locate the guy who told you to use a wooden object such as that dowel rod... then utter curses and profanities at him to the likes of which modern man has never seen.

NEVER put a wooden ANYTHING up or down your bores!

How much of the dowel came out?

If it's close to the chamber end, you may luck out and be able to go on line and find one of those rediculously long drill bits AND EVER SO SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY NIBBLE AWAY AT YOUR SINKER. Once you've gotten through or nearly through, you should be able to tap all that mess out with a solid stainless or brass rod.

Goatwhiskers
July 9, 2012, 04:52 PM
First off, NEVER NEVER EVER use a dowel to drive a slug in a barrel. Use a steel or brass rod close to bore diameter with a couple wraps of electrical tape every few inches to stop vibration. What I would suggest now after the oil soaks a little is to use a rod no more than a couple inches longer than the receiver (for stiffness) to start the slug moving, then a longer rod to move it back up the barrel. You may have to try to drill out the cotton-pickin dowel. GW

SIGSHR
July 9, 2012, 05:21 PM
Sounds like a job for a ball puller such as BP shooters use.

SPCMarty308
July 9, 2012, 06:53 PM
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm
Here's what I was going off of.
The whole barrel has dowel stuck in it, desperate attempt to push it through
I threaded the cleaning rod into the lead but I couldn't pull it out from te breech.
Any hope I could melt the lead with a propane torch? I also have a hydraulic press on hand

FrankenMauser
July 9, 2012, 08:28 PM
Definitely time for a ball puller, or a visit with a gunsmith.

The penetrating oil might help get the lead out, but it will cause the dowels to swell. :(


I had always had good luck with sections of quality oak dowels (not the Chinese hardware store crap). Then, there was an incident that required extreme measures....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82471&stc=1&d=1341882965
The slug got stuck behind a constriction in the barrel. When I whacked the dowel a little harder, it splintered in the barrel and wedged the other dowel sections in place. After very painstakingly drilling (by hand), cutting, and pulling pieces of the dowels out... the slug was still stuck. (The hammer drill was only used for its 'hammer' feature. It wasn't used to drill. And the drill rod had its tip very carefully dressed to prevent any damage.)

I don't recommend using a power tool in any way. I just wanted to show you that you're not the first person that has had that method fail.
For a long time, I thought the "don't use wood" crowd was just a bunch of Chicken Littles that were using cheap dowels. I was very wrong. :o

Now, I don't use anything but polished O-1 drill rod. That's exactly what you see chucked in the hammer drill, in the photo. That piece of drill rod was 0.003" under bore diameter, and fit quite nicely (bore: .304" / rod .301"). Of course... I only knew that because I had successfully slugged this barrel in the past. If you don't know your actual bore diameter, it's best to get something a bit smaller; so you can put a few wraps of electrical tape on the drill rod to make up the difference and keep it centered.

DaleA
July 10, 2012, 01:47 AM
I just wanted to show you that you're not the first person that has had that method fail.

You're a class act FrankenMauser - this is one of the reasons I stick around here.

impalacustom
July 10, 2012, 05:20 AM
Not that it helps you now but that guy is a moron, don't ever use anything that can splinter and bind itself into the barrel, the harder you hit the rods the more jammed and harder the bind.

tobnpr
July 10, 2012, 03:42 PM
Interesting...
I slugged my bore the exact same way with the wood dowels and had no issues.
Lucky, I guess.

In the end, I kinda don't see the point in the whole deal...

The only barrels with .308 groove dia. are a very limited number of Finns.

If you've got a 91/30, M44, or the like, it's going to be in the .311 range- or larger.

Just shoot the .311-.312 bullets. If the lands are worn out, not a damn thing you can do about it, anyway...make it a wall hanger.

SPCMarty308
July 11, 2012, 10:16 AM
Is there anything that'll dissolve/weaken the wood? I'd say I crammed the dowels pretty good. Any thoughts on using a 1/4" steel rod with the tip wrapped in electrical tape and a hydraulic press?

Is all factory 54R ammo using .308 diameter? Even the Russian made stuff and surplus?

tobnpr
July 11, 2012, 02:25 PM
Surplus ammo is going to be the "correct" .311 or .312.

I don't know why most commercial ammo is in .308, perhaps because there is the rare Finn with that groove dia and there would probably be liability concerns of overpressure if someone were to run .311 bullets down the .308 groove.

Not all commercial ammo is .308. I believe the "Bear" ammo is .311...but I'd always check with the manufacturer first.

Far as a torch to melt the lead....
I don't know what the melting temp of lead is, as compared to the heat necessary to damage the temper of the chamber steel.

Your rifle's action and bolt are tempered (heat treated) for strength. Applying too much heat to the action or bolt can damage/remove the temper, and make it downright dangerous as it might be unable to handle to chamber pressures.

I wouldn't risk it.

Hopefully someone has a fix.

Only thing I would try in the absence of a better suggestion is to use a very dull masonry type bit- nothing sharp that would cut into the rifling, and try to start it into the hole you say you've already made into the sinker. Then rotate it slowly by hand (vise grips) and try to slowly grind away at the lead until you've drilled a hole through the center of it.

Once that's done, some more judicial pounding should allow the sinker to now collapse inwards a bit due to the hole/void you just created.

Anyway, just a thought from a non-gunsmith...

FrankenMauser
July 11, 2012, 08:51 PM
In the end, I kinda don't see the point in the whole deal...

The only barrels with .308 groove dia. are a very limited number of Finns.

If you've got a 91/30, M44, or the like, it's going to be in the .311 range- or larger.

Just shoot the .311-.312 bullets. If the lands are worn out, not a damn thing you can do about it, anyway...make it a wall hanger.
If you're going to shoot jacketed bullets, there isn't much point in slugging the bore. But, if you're going to shoot lead bullets, slugging the bore is absolutely critical to ensure good results.

It can still be useful to find out what jacketed bullet will best fit the bore. But, it's tremendously useful to find out what the groove diameter is, if using lead bullets. Assuming that you have a .312" groove diameter and sending .312" lead projectiles down what is actually a .315" groove diameter results in a nasty mess and hours of scrubbing lead out of the barrel.

Given the fact that most of the cheap Mosins have bores worn or eroded to .314-.316", it's a good idea to slug them.

impalacustom
July 11, 2012, 11:13 PM
The problem now isn't the lead its the dowels, when they broke. Wood tends to break along it's grain and the dowels grain is running length wise (parallel to the bore) and one piece will wedge itself against the other. Picture 2 triangles working against each other in a confined space, just getting tighter and tighter the more you force them.

Drilling is about the least drastic thing you can do, whatever you do don't keep hammering.

ScottRiqui
July 12, 2012, 10:02 AM
The problem now isn't the lead its the dowels, when they broke. Wood tends to break along it's grain and the dowels grain is running length wise (parallel to the bore) and one piece will wedge itself against the other. Picture 2 triangles working against each other in a confined space, just getting tighter and tighter the more you force them.


Exactly. The fragments of dowel have formed wedges (one of the classic "simple machines"). Now, any longitudinal force applied along the axis of the barrel (such as from hammering) is being converted by the wedge shape to a lateral force that's not doing anything other than pressing the fragments tighter and tighter against the inner surface of the bore.

tobnpr
July 12, 2012, 02:41 PM
Right, I get that.
But, he said that he's got a rod threaded into the sinker from the breech end, so I thought drilling out the sinker,and maybe giving it some "room" to collapse into itself, might work if driven from the breech end. I agree that doing anything further from the muzzle end is only going to expand the spintered wood further tightening it's grip on the bore.

Exerting force from the other end will not aggravate that problem, at least.

Anyway, easy to armchair QB this one; I'm looking at it as a contractor, not a gunsmith!

10-96
July 12, 2012, 03:51 PM
OK, I've been reading about muriatic acid (same as hydrochloric acid) eating soft wood- not oak, maple, walnut, etc. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=muriatic%20acid%20on%20w&cp=20&gs_id=34&xhr=t&q=muriatic+acid+on+wood&pf=p&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&oq=muriatic+acid+on+woo&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ce19979f0aca28f&biw=1280&bih=618
What will the acid do to the barrel if he can stand it up in a bucket muzzle down, and use a dropper to apply small amounts of the acid, providing he can get it past the lead?

JWT
July 12, 2012, 05:01 PM
The acid would react with the wood, but it would also react with the metal barrel. Acid and metal are not compatible. Don't use it in your barrell. Ball puller or gunsmith is the best way to go.

Mr_Raw
July 12, 2012, 08:48 PM
My suggestion is that you get yourself a bullet scraper, get rid of the lead first.

now how many pieces of doweling do you have down the muzzle?
Because I think the ones at the muzzle have splintered. So if its the way I think it is pull the lead out and most of your doweling should follow. Then get a metal rod about 1/4" dia. wrap it in tape so it doesn't mar the rifling but not so much that you cant get it out either, insert from breach end and give it a couple of hits with a heavy hammer.

Or as has been suggested before call a gunsmith.

Jerry45
July 13, 2012, 07:43 AM
I have an idea. I've never had to do this to a rifle barrel but I did have to do something similar where I could use a steel rod. DO NOT USE A STEEL ROD!!!! Get a aluminum rod. Probably Home Depot or a Hardware store that's smaller than the bore. Flatten on end with a hammer then taper it to a point with a grinder. You now have an aluminum drill bit that will cut wood and lead but not steel (the barrel). Drill a little then pull it out then drill a little and pull it out until you have the center of the dowel and lead plug drilled out. Then you can use a larger rod, perhaps even a cleaning rod to shove the remainder out of the bore. I'm sure I could do it but your mileage may vary. ;)

mete
July 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
Put some termites in the barrel to get rid of the wood first !

SPCMarty308
July 13, 2012, 12:28 PM
The aluminum rid idea might work. A masonry bit won't chew up the barrel?
There's probably 4 pieces of dowel in the barrel. I did try to hammer the lead back up the barrel so I bet most of the dowel is crammed.
Bunch of termites eh? A process needin patience for sure.
Gunsmith would be the best route I suppose.

tobnpr
July 13, 2012, 03:46 PM
Marty,
My idea with the masonry bit was to drill just the center of the sinker, where you say you've already started a hole.

It sure could scratch or gouge the rifling, as it's steel on steel. But "I" would do it with a masonry bit rather than a sharp, HSS bit, because they're dull by design and less likely to scratch the rifling if you "slip".

But, IF you can get a long enough, small (1/8") bit started in the center of it, and work it slowly, I think it would work.

Lead is very soft. No need to go fast- just chuck it into a cordless drill, and spin it very slowly- just letting it chew on the lead. Shouldn't take very much. Then move to a slightly larger bit, removing the lead from the center, outwards.

Just like drilling out a snapped off tap in a receiver (OUCH)...

The reason the lead is stuck is it's being compressed, if you drill out the center, the soft lead will have a void and collapse inwards and be easily compressed and driven out.

Anyway, that's what I would do. Done correctly, it's safe, and won't risk any damage. Worst case, it doesn't work and you drop back and punt...

Nemsis
July 13, 2012, 04:10 PM
Just drill it out, unless you have a rare/valuable mosin the worst that can happen is you buy another $100 rifle and have some spare parts for it.

barnbwt
July 13, 2012, 04:36 PM
Lead melts and wood burns...

TCB

tobnpr
July 14, 2012, 02:45 PM
Lead melts and wood burns...


And steel temper gets damaged...and rifle receiver goes "boom"...

johnwilliamson062
July 15, 2012, 10:02 PM
The cheapest fastest solution is a new MN 91/30.

wyop
July 15, 2012, 11:50 PM
How much do you have into this Mosin? And how much time and money are you willing to spend to rectify this problem?

As a gunsmith, I can recommend ideas to remove the obstruction and maybe not damage the bore... but they require equipment and skill. If you're really attached to this rifle, you might not want to take the chance of damaging the bore, seeing as how this is your first time doing this.

If you're not attached to this rifle and it's just another Mosin, I think buying another Mosin is about the cheapest sure-fire method to deal with this problem. Assuming a smith in your area is charging $65/hour or more, I'm almost certain that another Mosin will be cheaper than what he'll charge you.

Heavy Metal 1
July 16, 2012, 12:11 AM
Go to a welding supply store and get a brass brazing rod as close to bore diameter as possible. Put it in through the breech end and pound the junk out of there. The brass will be harder than the wood, but won't harm the rifling. Gong from the muzzle might work too, but as identified above may exacerbate the jamming of the dowels. I've used this successfully w/ squibs stuck in the bore, never had the dowel problem.

impalacustom
July 17, 2012, 02:08 AM
Put it in through the breech end and pound the junk out of there. The brass will be harder than the wood, but won't harm the rifling.

DO NOT DO THIS.

Wedges work in both ways...

samsmix
July 18, 2012, 10:12 PM
I am a proud father: My 16 year old daughter was reading this thread over my shoulder and exclaimed "OH NO!" When I asked her why, she replied that the propane torch/melt it out idea might ruin the heat treat of the steel... (Sniffle, sniffle,:D)

smoakingun
July 20, 2012, 07:17 PM
lead 327 deg heat treat between 550 and 850

The melting point of lead is 327 degrees, steel is heat treated and anealed at temps betwee 550 and 850 degrees. Tell me how melting the lead will damage the heat treat? if you heat the steel from the outside, you will dis-color the blueing. An alternate way to heat the lead would be from the inside with an iron. If you don't have an iron long enough, get a piece of 1/4" steel rod, grind the end to a rounded point. using an acetelene torch, heat the rod till it glows bright red, about 700 degrees, apply the rod to the lead, a little will melt out, repeat the process untill all the lead is removed.

tobnpr
July 21, 2012, 12:12 PM
That might work...

Granted, the melting point of lead is lower than what would damage the temper.
But, that's not the issue, it's the fact that owner is not a gunsmith, and his ability to control the heat is the problem.

I'm sure he doesn't know what heat-control paste is...and even so in this application would be difficult to use.

barnbwt
July 21, 2012, 08:37 PM
ead 327 deg heat treat between 550 and 850

To be honest, I was (half) joking when I suggested the lead and dowels be burned out (everyone was suggesting everything, it was kinda funny), but I suppose it could actually work. Lead melts ~350, wood burns around 450. If heated carefully (and ideally, locally, as with a soldering iron or wood burner) the plug could at least adjust its shape enough to reduce the force on the barrel. The wood would char, rather than burn (no O2), keeping temperatures safe. If proper caution is used, the torch/rod trick would probably be safer for the gun than drilling, pulling, and especially hammering.

TCB

Edward429451
July 21, 2012, 10:48 PM
You couldn't use heat paste. Where would he put it? I like the hot 1/4" rod idea. Safest idea yet.

leadloader77
January 5, 2015, 10:18 AM
This is my first thread contribution so I figured I would start here. I am finding this thread to be very useful as I just did this because I watched a YouTube Pro and decided to try my luck before visiting the forums. No I am paying the price.

I am trying the aluminum dowel idea and also a long acrylic dowel that is 1/4 thick for a 7.62mm barrel. The thinking is that both aluminum and acrylic are much harder than wood and that if I fashion a rough front on either one I should be able to use it as a drill bit of sorts. I should be able to scrape/destroy the wood that is in the barrel a little bit at a time and then slowly work my way to the lead slug. I am going to try alternately filling the barrel with distilled water or WD40 to make it soft and then slowly work at the wood.

I got mine stuck in a 308 savage barrel. If it works I will post some photos. Thanks.

skizzums
January 5, 2015, 10:40 AM
If that happened to me, i would just torch the gun until the lead melted. 700 degrees shouldnt be hot enough to damage the temper. Not saying its right, its just what i would do

johnwilliamson062
January 5, 2015, 02:27 PM
I don't think the aluminum bit idea is a great one. THe aluminum may not "cut" steel, but it isn't oing to have 0 effect on it. For an MN 91/30 the damage may not be significant compared to the irregularities already present.

mehavey
January 5, 2015, 02:56 PM
"Next" Time.... (it's always "next" time isn't it?) ;), clean/oil the barrel w/ something like BreakFree, and slather the slugging ball* w/ RCBS case lube.

I'll admit I've used wooden dowels to push things through ;), but... using pure lead balls from my C&B pistols, smacking them into the muzzle with a rawhide hammer, and then pushing through, I've never expereinced anything but hand-smooth passage -- even in tight spots.

6.5swedeforelk
January 5, 2015, 03:34 PM
If it were my Mosin (ya, fat chance), I would haul it to a secluded out-building along with a hundred ft of string and a pulled-bullet load...

If successful, render it unoperative for a wall hanger.

Snyper
January 5, 2015, 04:20 PM
I'd try to rig up a car jack. come-along, gear puller, or anything that will PULL, and try to get the dowel out that way

I suspect the slug is will require drilling from the breech if you can't get all the dowel out

Drill out the center only, and screw in a piece of threaded rod so you can also try to pull it out

Beating on it with anything will just obturate it further

Strafer Gott
January 5, 2015, 05:07 PM
Use the drill bits in stages, and only use hand power. Start small and work your way up, so that you can get a little bite with increasing size. I removed a lead plug out of a Colt caused by a squib load (Winchester recall). It took a bit of time, but out it came, and with no scratches. Steel isn't that easy to scratch, particularly with cheap Chinese drill bits. Those bits were good for something after all! Just not cutting steel.

hartcreek
January 5, 2015, 05:58 PM
My suggestion is to get a brass rod and shape the tip pyrmid style and drill the dowel rod out then use the brass rod to drive out the sinker. It will take time but the brass rod is soft enough to not do damage yet hard enough to chip awat the dowel pieces a little bit at a time.

leadloader77
January 5, 2015, 09:24 PM
hartcreek...

I like your recommendation about the shape of the rod. I bought 2 just in case from Home Depot. Although, instead of brass rods I bought 3 foot sections of 1/4" aluminum rods. That is all they had for softer metals. I guess they also had zinc rods but I chose the softer metal...

I am going to chop 1 of the rods up a bit into multiple sizes so that the rods maintain rigidity while "drilling" with my home made aluminum drill bits. Like I said, I am going to be doing it in sections of a few inches at a time as I am not in a hurry. I figure over a day of alternately soaking the wood in the barrel in WD40 and drilling it should be pretty cake.

Logically, this should work. I will keep my fingers crossed. For giggles I will take photos of my progress as I do this and then post them if it works out well.

leadloader77
January 5, 2015, 09:35 PM
Strafer Gott...

Thanks for this recommendation. I was just going to chuck it in my hand drill but I can see the advantage of "trying" to do it by hand before the drill. I think I will grab my aluminum drill bit with a pair of vice grips and us a small piece of wood as a spindle holder and press down while turning it both directions with the vice grips. Only thing I can think of right now....but I will definitely try the hand power first before the machine power to "baby" my bore :)

Thanks to everyone for the great recommendations. The small detail recommendations have definitely helped me iron out my plan of attack.

Dragonflydf
January 5, 2015, 11:37 PM
use a propane torch and melt it out, and next time you want to slug a barrel, DO NOT USE LEAD,
Use chamber casting metal,
http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chamber_casting_alloy.htm

lefty60
January 5, 2015, 11:58 PM
Not a lot of help at this point, but why does anyone feel the need to push the slug material full length of the barrel??

Chamber casting material would certainly have been easier and less costly, than all of this other bother.

Just my not so humble opinion.

HiBC
January 6, 2015, 01:33 AM
I have not done this,offering an idea.

Easton offers a 9/32 (.281) od aluminum arrow shaft.

You can figure out the ID and get a 36 in piece of O-1 drill rod from MSC or another supplier that will be about .015 smaller.

Use the arrow shaft to line the bore and grind a spade or gun drill tip on the drill rod.

I'd try to go a little at a time,limiting protrusion of the drill from the tube to less than an inch or so.That should limit deflection.and help protect the bore.

I'd figure"OK,I screwed up,and scrapped this rifle.Bummer.OK,I can order a new MN from AIM surplus.Or? .But for now,I have nothing to lose!!So I can have some fun trying."
You also might try a ball puller,pretty much a wood screw fixed to a cleaning rod,to pull,rather than push your obstruction.It may overcome the wedging.

If you can figue a way to drill apilot hole,like a tap drill hole for the ballpuller screw,that willhelp.Hobby shops carry brass telescoping tube in small diameters 12 in long,and aircraft drills are commonly available in 12 in lengths.

IMO,I would not let any tool rotate on the bore.I'd work through a tube.

skizzums
January 6, 2015, 02:18 AM
ill give ya 75 bucks for it:)

Mobuck
January 6, 2015, 06:14 AM
Just drill it out, unless you have a rare/valuable mosin the worst that can happen is you buy another $100 rifle and have some spare parts for it.
__________________

Yeah, it wasn't worth much to begin with and (IMHO) not worth much less now. Sorry Dude, I consider the MN as a bayonet extension at best.

DaleA
January 6, 2015, 08:12 AM
Guys! The Mosin was over two years ago-we are now dealing with a new member with a .308 Savage barrel (post #35).

Check out Frankenmauser's solution here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495224

Post number 6.

(Wonder if the Mosin guy ever got his fixed...)

And Leadloader77 - post the stuff whether it works or not-I'd be interested in what happens.

FrankenMauser
January 6, 2015, 11:02 AM
With DaleA's reference, I thought I should point out that this statement:
After very painstakingly drilling (by hand), cutting, and pulling pieces of the dowels out... the slug was still stuck.
...Refers to actually using a drill bit chucked in a pin vise. I wasn't drilling with a power tool of any kind.
I was very carefully, methodically drilling with only the power of my fingers, and clearing out the small chips as I went.
Then, of course, I went to the penetrating oil and hammer drill noted in the post.

In my case, that was possible because the slug was stuck fairly close to the muzzle; but it may not be an option for slugs stuck farther from the muzzle or chamber.


Also.... drill bits bite VERY quickly in lead, if you aren't careful. Don't get impatient and break a bit off in the slug.

Snyper
January 6, 2015, 11:49 AM
If you haven't already soaked the wood with a liquid, I'd not do that

Dry wood will chip easier than wet, and any liquids will just make it swell tighter in the bore

Don't put in any oil until it's time to remove metal

HiBC
January 6, 2015, 11:52 AM
Leadloader,I suggest you do not under any circumstance put water in the bore.The wood will swell,and get stuck tighter.And the rust that will grow will eat pits in your barrel and stick the wood tighter.I suggest you not use the acrylic rod,either.

Kosh75287
January 6, 2015, 01:20 PM
I wonder if white vinegar might help. It's a weak acid, so it won't AGGRESSIVELY attack the metals in the barrel. On the other hand, on contact with lead, it forms lead acetate, which is very soluble in water, and would be easily rinsed away (so you needn't LEAVE water in the barrel, just flush the barrel out with it).

If I did the calculations right, and assuming that the reaction went to 50% completion, I would expect each application to remove about 17 grains of lead, when the lead acetate is rinsed out.

Were I to try it, I'd cork the chamber end, pour in the vinegar to within 1"or 2" of the muzzle, and leave it muzzle up in the warmest room in the house for about an hour. Invert the muzzle, with (GLOVED!) thumb over it every 15 to 20 minutes, then rinse. I'd try this two or 3 times, THEN try tapping it out gently.

JUSt a thought.

HiBC
January 6, 2015, 02:52 PM
And people wonder why gunsmiths are crotchety.

Scorch
January 6, 2015, 03:13 PM
And people wonder why gunsmiths are crotchety.
LOL! And people wonder why we gunsmiths charge as much as we do! As in: if I do something I shouldn't and break it, I will fix it for free. If you do something you shouldn't and break something, this is going to be a learning experience.

Whatever you do, I would recommend you not put vinegar, water, salad dressing, soy sauce, soda pop, pancake syrup, or any other water based liquid solutions into the bore and leave them there. They will cause rust. Note I said "will", not "may". But, hey! This has been going on for a while, maybe it's just for entertainment, in which case maybe vinegar will be entertaining!

BTW, vinegar is a 4%-5% solution of acetic acid, so I seriously doubt it will remove 17 grains of lead with each application. It typically is not a good thing for metals.

Snyper
January 6, 2015, 04:12 PM
I wonder about using vinegar...
I wonder if white vinegar might help.
No liquid is going to help until the wood is removed, and since no one can predict how long that will take, an acidic liquid would be worse than plain water

You can't "flush" it out when the bore is plugged with debris

reynolds357
January 6, 2015, 09:45 PM
If he has not gotten the wood and lead out of his rifle in 2 1/2 years, I doubt he will get it out.:rolleyes:

leadloader77
January 6, 2015, 10:47 PM
Good deal! The process works but it is darn time consuming. I just started it about 30 mins ago. I sprayed WD40 down the barrel and used my home made 1/4" aluminum drill bits. I tried the original head shape of a pyramid but it did not work as well as the shape of a flat head screw driver with the corners nicked off. Again, I used aluminum NOT steel as my "make shift" drill bits. I got through about 4 inches of embedded wood.

I tried hand cranking my bits but it was a NO GO. Finally chucked it into my drill and just decided to go slow. The aluminum bits need some refinement now and again with a file but it DEFINITELY gets through the wood. I am letting it soak now and will pick it up again in about 1/2 hour or so.

I thought the wood would come out in wood colored pieces but with the heat the aluminum drill bit produces and the WD40 it is coming out as black powdery/clumpy gook. Sort of reminds me of the oil residue you would find under the hood of your car. I am only drilling for 15-20 seconds at a time while applying some pressure and then backing it off to remove gook. I don't want the area to get HOT under any circumstances.

I am using Q-tips to clean out my work but I am getting deeper now and I think I will snake out my bore brush to remove the gunk as I am going.

Will post pics of my bits when I am done.

R.Ph. 380
January 6, 2015, 11:00 PM
mete said: Put some termites in the barrel to get rid of the wood first !


HeHeHe!!!

HiBC
January 7, 2015, 02:36 AM
A 30 cal borebrush will be unhappy when you reverse it.You may end up with another thing stuck in your bore.

Have fun with what you are doing.I do wish you the best of luck.

Maybe your results will be good.

But,if you enjoy accuracy,I suspect it will be a good time to check into a replacement barrel.I suspect savage will sell one at a reasonable price.The nut system of headspacing should make it do-able without your gunsmith charging too much.Good as new!!

Snyper
January 7, 2015, 10:44 AM
If he has not gotten the wood and lead out of his rifle in 2 1/2 years, I doubt he will get it out.
If you read the posts, you'll realize it's not the same gun, nor the same poster, which has already been explained once

leadloader77
January 7, 2015, 11:08 AM
HiBC…

Thank you for the well wishes.

However… Respectfully… How is the barrel going to be damaged? This makes no logical sense to me. You are proposing that the softer aluminum will damage the barrel. How is this logical? Below is a chart of the Brinell hardness of the materials involved. There is no pounding that is taking place. Merely a shaft of aluminum spinning at slow drill speeds cutting and breaking down the oak wood dowel. The hardness of the aluminum is far softer than even the copper jacketed ammo that most people shoot in their rifles. It is also LESS THAN ¼ the Brinell hardness of the tempered heat treated barrel. The aluminum rods I have modified are not spinning at thousands of RPMs and they are not generating enough heat to change the temper of the stainless steel barrel.

Please consider the very high pressures of the 308 Winchester round and the obturation of a traditional copper jacketed bullet sufficient enough to swage the bullet into the rifling. Logically, how is a “garage gunsmith” (I am using the term gunsmith VERY VERY loosely) with a weak piece of aluminum applying anywhere near the force of a copper jacketed bullet.

It seems to me “logically” that I am perhaps wearing the barrel on an even par with shooting a few boxes of ammo in a particularly fun weekend at the range. If your experience shows that I am wrong please explain your reasoning. Thank you.

Oak Wood – Brinell hardness 3.7
6061 Aluminum Rod – Brinell Hardness 95
Copper Jacket Alloy (on most bullets) – Brinell Hardness 100-130
4140 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell Hardness 197 -- UNTEMPERED
4150 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell hardness 197 – UNTEMPERED
4140 Steel (Possible Rifle Barrel Steel) – Brinell Hardness 444 – Tempered @ 600 Degrees

garryc
January 7, 2015, 11:12 AM
I knew a guy that had that problem. He actually made a drill out of hardened brass rod. He cut four straight flutes with a needle file then hardened it and put cutting edges on it. You wouldn't think it would work, but that crafty old hillbilly made it work. He was a tool and die man so I figure he knew all about metals.

leadloader77
January 7, 2015, 11:21 AM
I got impatient with it and became bored after making my way 6 inches into the barrel. All in all I was at it slowly drilling and resharpening my bits for about 1 hour. It is too tedious to do straight through so I will do some more later on today... so on an so forth... until I get-r-dun.

Kosh75287
January 7, 2015, 05:48 PM
You can't "flush" it out when the bore is plugged with debris

Yes, actually, you can. I guess in an open-ended container, it would be considered flushing, while in a container closed on one end, the better term would be rinsing.
Fill the barrel with warm water, then pour it out. You Repeat it 2 or 3 times, then spray WD-40 or some other form of organic water displacer, dump it once, refill and let it sit. The first water "rinse" removes about 90% of the lead acetate/acetic acid from the barrel. The next rinse removes about 90% of what's left behind (about 9%). The third rinse removes 90% of the 1% left over, and so forth.

Before the dangers of lead were completely understood, wines were often sweetened by pouring them up in bottles with lead pellets in them. The acetic acid in the wines (at considerably lower concentrations than vinegar) reacts to form lead acetate, also known archaically as "sugar of lead", resulting in a sweetened (and HORRIDLY toxic) wine.

BTW, vinegar is a 4%-5% solution of acetic acid, so I seriously doubt it will remove 17 grains of lead with each application.

SCORCH, I calculated the amount of lead converted to lead acetate using very conservative assumptions to come up with the numbers I posted. Would you like me to walk you through them? Would you understand them if I did?

I'm not sure how much time my decriers have spent in a chemistry lab, but I've been in the field going on 30 years. I AM aware, perhaps more so than most, that acids attack most metals. And while I WOULD NOT USE STRONG ACIDS, like muriatic (HCl) to try this, I WOULD BE willing to bet that the acetic acid will preferentially react with lead (AND cellulose in the dowel, for that matter) rather than with high-carbon steel. Will SOME iron be removed? Yes, probably, but far far less than the amounts of lead and cellulose removed.

Sorry if I made the gunsmiths unhappy. I didn't know one was required to have a Bachelor's degree in chemistry to get out of gunsmithing school. I DO know that I wouldn't presume to tell a gunsmith how to mill a receiver nor how to rebarrel an action. I'd hoped for the same consideration in return.

Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?

You're right, Scorch. I probably shouldn't have bothered.

FrankenMauser
January 7, 2015, 06:09 PM
SCORCH, I calculated the amount of lead converted to lead acetate using very conservative assumptions to come up with the numbers I posted. Would you like me to walk you through them? Would you understand them if I did?
This is not the recommended method for making friends here.....



And, if you think you have all of the answers, why are you asking for advice? :rolleyes:

Blindstitch
January 7, 2015, 06:13 PM
Ouch I have a feeling we're going in the opposite direction of helpful.

We're trying to get a slug out not have a slug out.

Blindstitch
January 7, 2015, 06:26 PM
I didn't read the whole thing but if wood is stuck in one end why not take a cleaning rod and adapt a wood screw to it permanently and try to screw it into the wood as one would pull a muzzelloader bullet. Of course the thought of going the other way and screwing into that egg sinkers hole sounds good to.

Kosh75287
January 7, 2015, 06:52 PM
LOL @ BLINdstitch's "slug out, not a slug-out" comment.


Throttle back, FRANKENMAUSER, both of my questions to Scorch were reasonable and appropriate. I will happily show him, or anyone else how I arrived at my results. My questioning his capacity to understand it arises from his immediate dismissal of my suggestion, without even asking how I might have arrived at them. It suggests to me an unwillingness to even CONSIDER other approaches to the problem, which often leads down troubled paths.

I DON'T know everything, sir, and I have never made such a claim. I DO know something of chemistry, though, probably as much as SCORCH knows of gunsmithing. It is why I OFFERED THE SUGGESTION that vinegar MIGHT be a solution (pun not intended). for dislodging the stuck dowel and slug. I don't recall DEMANDING or GUARANTEEING the use of vinegar to dissolve the bullet.

And GUNSMITHS wonder why customers often become impatient with them...

Snyper
January 7, 2015, 09:56 PM
My questioning his capacity to understand it arises from his immediate dismissal of my suggestion, without even asking how I might have arrived at them. It suggests to me an unwillingness to even CONSIDER other approaches to the problem, which often leads down troubled paths.

Don't confuse the dismissal with not understanding

It's just a bad idea to add liquid when trying to drill out the wood, and dissolving the lead isn't going to happen in a timely manner, no matter how many calculations you performed

Fill the barrel with warm water, then pour it out. You Repeat it 2 or 3 times, then spray WD-40 or some other form of organic water displacer, dump it once, refill and let it sit. The first water "rinse" removes about 90% of the lead acetate/acetic acid from the barrel. The next rinse removes about 90% of what's left behind (about 9%). The third rinse removes 90% of the 1% left over, and so forth.

All you'd accomplish is saturating the wood, causing it to swell tighter in the bore, trapping the moisture and the lead.

HiBC
January 7, 2015, 10:25 PM
My response to both our OP with his aluminum drill,and the advocate of vinegar in the bore.
You have formed mental solutions to the problem at hand.And,as reasonable human nature allows,a touch of ego/pride goes along with it.

I studied Vocational Machine Shop 3 hrs a day in High school.Then,in 1974 I got a job as gopher in the R+D Model shop of a consumer product company.That developed into a career as a R+D machinist /Modelmaker/moldmaker.Later,in a major industrial control company,I worked in their low volume dept for a while before being offered a position in Quality.Throughout this time I have been a firearms enthusiast and amateur gunsmith.
When I get an idea in my head about a rifle or handgun,I build it.

I am not the one who has a mess stuck in his barrel.And I have successfully slugged barrels.

OP,you will note I offered you the alternative of working through an aluminum arrow shaft as a sleeve around a drill.
Tell me,OP,why do knowledgable shooters avoid using aluminum cleaning rods?Because aluminum is a grit magnet.It embeds in the surface of the aluminum and serves as a cutter tooth.It is the principle of the lap.If you study the pages of premium barrel makers you will learn one function of the final lap is to align the lay of the tool finish in the direction of the bullet travel.Lines perpendicular to the path of the bullet function as file teeth on the bullet.
These barrelmakers are leary of the damage well intentioned shooters do with their cleaning equiptment,including bore brushes.
Aside from the embedded grit inherently in mill finish aluminum,only very bright shiny aluminum is the soft aluminum you are thinking of.That grey looking mill finish on the outside of the rod is aluminum oxide.Grinding wheels and lapping compound are made of aluminum oxide.It cuts steel quite well.Don't believe me?Take a bar of mill finish aluminum rod,go to your gun safe.Pull out your prettiest blued rifle or shotgun and rub that aluminum like a file on the barrel.Tell me how that soft aluminum protected your barrel.Send pictures.

I also ,as a moldmaker,was sent to understudy a Master Die Finisher.He was working on coining dies for the Mint when I arrived.I do know something about high finishes on steel.I know how to create them.I have created them.I know what destroys them.
OP,I concede I cannot be certain whether your outcome will be satisfactory.I am doubtful.I think the experience you are gaining is great.It may work!!But I'm also realistic,and,IMO,an easy rebarrel is sunshine,because all is not lost.

To the vinegar,I am not a chemist.One thing decades of working with highly finished steel will provide is simple observtions of what happens.Standing outside in the rain could result in getting wet.Hitting my thumb with a hammer will hurt.Us dumb shop guys write that down in the book of experience.I do not need a degree in meteorology or a Doctor of Medicine to know these things.
I have used cider vinegar to rust brown muzzle loaders.I have used proprietary solutions,mildly acid,to rust blue in a tank of boiling water.It is remarkable how fast it works.

I have also seen a barrel develop surface rust in seconds as I watched for simply degreasing it with laquer thinner.
The wood is absorbent.It will simultaneously absorb and swell. Immediate removal is unlikely.That vinegar/plug may remain for hours or days.And so here is what I would like for you to do,mr chemist.Go get your favorite rifle or shotgun out.Blued carbon steel.If you have a Parker side by side,it would be ideal.OK,a Colt Python will do.
Put a wad of paper,or a rag,or wood shavings,or a cigar butt soaked in vinegar in the bore.Then wipe down the outside of the gun with a vinegar soaked rag.Put it in a gun case,and leave it a week.Then come back and be sure to push the plug out of the bore.Let me know what your academic observation is.
Mr Scorch has spent some time around gun steel,and his observations agree with mine.
But you folks just do whatever makes you happy.I'll pull up a stool with some popcorn.And I'll keep my salty fingers off the guns.
Pardon me for offering my best to your request for help.My mistake.
Once again,I am not the one with a slug and splintered dowels jammed up in my bore.How could I know anything?

Scorch
January 7, 2015, 10:56 PM
My, we are getting off track here, aren't we? Kosh, I'm sorry if I rankled you with my response. But assuming someone is uneducated and that you know more than they do is dangerous. Yes, I am a gunsmith by trade now, but I have several degrees, a BS in Biolgy (where i took chemistry up to and including biochem and endocrinology), as well as a masters in business. I spent 20 years in Management, primarily in manufacturing industries in Operations. I can tell you for a certainty that metallic lead is highly insoluble in just about any acid, as well as aqueous solutions. If this were not true, they would not use lead to line acid storage tanks. I can also tell you numerous amusing anecdotes about engineers who "calculated" things that were just not so. And now, I can tell a story of a presumptuous chem student that is trying to dissolve lead with vinegar, when just about any farm boy down South can tell you that lead is fairly insoluble because they can go dig up lead bullets fired 150 years ago during the Civil War. As a gunsmith, I can tell you that you can spend hundreds of dollars and hours trying to fix the problem you created, or just take the simplest answer and replace the $150 rifle. But since you know the answers already, you will just go ahead like you have been doing. Have fun.

reynolds357
January 7, 2015, 11:15 PM
Kosh, I must admit that I intentionally took as little Chemistry as possible in College. Only a few courses in it were required for my degree program. The Chemistry that most interested me was the Chemist behind the bar at happy hour. Having said that, get you some lead sinkers, drop them in a jug of vinegar and see how long they last.;)

If you would round yourself up a good steel rod just slightly under bore size, put the barreled action in a proper vise. Then get yourself a 2 1/2 pound hammer. Hit the rod very solidly. By that, I mean knock the hades out of it. Don't tap on it or play around with it. Hit it hard. The lead will come out of the bore the way it went in. It will push the wood out with it. You must have a very hard, very rigid steel rod. It must fit the barrel reasonably tightly. If it is loose, the steel rod flexing dampens most of the impact force.

leadloader77
January 8, 2015, 12:20 AM
Sir, I can assure you that there was no ego in my requesting information earlier. I presented my rationale respectfully with explanations and asked for a logical rebuttal. You gave me exactly that!

I am very appreciative of the explanation as I was in earnest when I asked for it. It is reasonable, logical and well thought out. I have learned something about guns today and I am grateful for it!!! Thank you.

With that said I am already 1/3 of the way through my barrel/wood dowel problem and there is no turning back. I am in agreement with your likely assessment of reduced accuracy. However, being that this was my FIRST hunting style rifle I have to admit that I did purchase it as a "learner" rifle. Most of my firearm experience is with pistols. I reload and cast for a number of calibers and have slugged many bores (with oak dowels no less). Fear not!!! I shall never slug a bore with an oak dowel again!!!

My goal was to learn the basics of long guns and reloading for them. That includes how to cast lead bullets for them. I purchased an entry level Savage Axis 308 for the purpose of learning about 1 year ago.

Before I purchase another barrel I will likely try to assess the accuracy for my poor skills and decide whether to try to tailor loads specifically for this rifle or just purchase another barrel. Thanks again for the learning info and for being willing to share your knowledge!

Kosh75287
January 8, 2015, 01:40 AM
Synthesis of Lead (II) Acetate


In this method, lead metal, vinegar, and aqueous hydrogen peroxide are combined. These are all OTC chemicals and easily obtained.

Combine equal volumes of 3% hydrogen peroxide, vinegar (@ 5% acetic acid) in a 250 mL erlenmeyer flask with magnetic stirring bar.

Heat until near boiling. Remove from heat. Slowly add lead metal. The mixture may bubble vigorously, for as long as 5-10 minutes.

Hydrogen peroxide acts as an oxidizer in acidic (acetic acid) conditions, oxidizing the metallic lead to lead oxide, rendering the lead susceptible to attack by vinegar (acetic acid), forming lead (II) acetate.

Pb (S) + HOOH (aq) → PbO (aq) + HOH (l)
PbO (aq) + 2 C2H4O2(aq) → Pb(CH3CO2)2 (aq) + HOH

Okay, not the most scholarly synthetic write-up I've ever seen, but certainly adequate. I will admit to having forgotten about needing peroxide as an oxidizer, but I WILL NOT concede that this method is totally without merit.

PRESUMPTUOUS, Scorch?? What exactly makes you think I'm still a student? Which of us is being presumptuous? That thing about the pot calling the kettle black seems to fit, here.

By the way, I'll see your "chemistry up to and including biochem and endocrinology" and raise you my Physical Chemistry I (Thermodynamics) and II (Quantum Mechanics), Inorganic Chemistry, Physical Inorganic Chemistry, Metabolism & Regulation, Advanced Biochemistry and Advanced Synthetic Methods (Organic AND Inorganic).

Yes, I am a gunsmith by trade now, but I have several degrees, a BS in Biolgy

When they conferred your Bachelor's degree, did they forget to check that you knew how to spell "biology", because THAT part of your education appears to have evaded you.

Okay, I'm done.

FrankenMauser
January 8, 2015, 01:46 AM
I tried to hint earlier, but you seem to have missed the message...

When they conferred your Bachelor's degree, did they forget to check that you knew how to spell "biology", because THAT part of your education appears to have evaded you.
Personal attacks are against forum rules.

But, mostly, they just irritate everyone that came here hoping to help, or get help.

Scorch
January 8, 2015, 02:02 AM
Yeah, yeah, kush, you win. Whatever. Sorry my typing on my phone is not up to snuff. Thermodynamics was a 100 level course, physical chemistry was a 200 level course, quantum mechanics was a 400 level course, inorganic chem was a 300 level course, metabolism and regulation was a 400 level course, etc, etc. Done anything lately?

Maybe I was wrong about you still being a student. I am still a student, so whatever. When we cease learning, we start dying. And seriously, forgetting the oxidizer? Great methodology. Great chemistry. 30 years, huh? Meh.

Like I said, you win. That makes you the winner. Yay. You still have a trashed rifle.

HiBC
January 8, 2015, 02:08 AM
Leadloader

Well done!!Now it is water under the bridge.
All of us.myself included,at times go through a process of learning.

The first stage is unconscious incompetence,screwing up without knowing you are screwing up.It is therefore unlikely we know the why and how of screwing up.We mat just notice something is not working.That is an excellent clue to recognize HMMMMPerhaps....

The next stage is conscious incompetence.Perhaps through poor execution of new skills,or regression to familiar process,we screw up and say"Dang,I did that again!!I have to remember!!Hold my lips right!!"

Conscious competence?Dang!!I'm focused on holding my lips right!!It Worked!!Whoopee!

Unc
onscious competence:Like shifting gears and operating a clutch after driving a 4 speed ten years.

We all do it

Now,one of my writings.

Prerequisite disillusionment,is illusion.The discomfort of disillusionment is the birth pang of Truth.

Us shop guys often find elegant solutions not by forcing them,,but by having a cup of coffee,and clearing the mind.Relax.Close your eyes.Simply allow the solution to paint itself in your mind.Be patient.Sleep on it if necessary.

But grabbing the big hammer,or applying more white knuckles,or doing whatever is NOT WORKING harder...breaks taps,for example.

Well,one day I was up in WYO,paddling my Wenonah C-1 Whitewater canoe down the North Platte.Afternoons,warm air will flow up a river.Wind was blowing so hard I was cavitating my paddle,pulling downsream.I noticed a tree on the bank was not going anywhere.I said Hmmmm.I got off the river,sat under the tree and had a beer.I was making the same progress with a far more leisurely effort.That is an example of listening for an elegant solution.

HiBC
January 8, 2015, 02:29 AM
Hey,Kosh,but,yeah,you did leave out the peroxide,a more grievous error than a typo ,yes?Speck in Scorch's eye,log in yours?
And yeah,hey KoshDid you try dropping lead sinkers in a bottle if vinegar?Try a lead bullet.Measure it first.Check every day as often as you like.Can we agree on a dimensional change of .2 mm,or just under .008 in?

OK.Now the whole time we are waiting on the lead to dissolve,you have to keep your most prized and beautiful blue steel gun wraped in a vinegar wet towel.You can let the towel slowly dry,as the still stuck wood plug would.

I have worked with brilliant engineers(just ask them,they will tell you) that,for example,insisted on all of the 6-32 tapped holes in the aluminum plates be blind,bottom tapped holes.When I asked why,the reply was he did not want confusing left handed threads exposed on the back of the plate.

I do not care your education,IQ,or what flavor latte you like.Putting vinegar in the bore of this rifle is a really bad idea.Now,go put a vinegar patch in the bore of one of your own guns and leave it a few days.

Kosh75287
January 8, 2015, 02:56 AM
I was envisioning leaving the vinegar/peroxide solution in the barrel for about 10 minutes, not a few days, but since I didn't specify, DO feel free to construe it in the most ludicrous manner possible, especially if it prevents you from conceding anything.

And I think your idea about putting the lead sinker in vinegar/peroxide solution, then measuring it is an excellent one! I may just give that a try !

HiBC
January 8, 2015, 03:53 AM
IMO,it is not ludicrous to suppose the vinegar will not release the mess from the bore in 10 minutes.
It is not ludicrous to suppose the vinegar will penetrate the end grain and splits,and be trapped in the bore.Swelling the wood tighter.From that point on,vinegar is present in the bore.It also interacts with the chemistry of the wood,which may (or not?) affect the corrosive properties of the vinegar.I do not know if acetic acid is more volatile than water,but,if not,would the acidity not increase as the water evaporated?

And it is not ludicrous to think the man with the problem would be frustrated by the failure of such"science" and throw his hands up and walk away for a time.
Tell me,do you apply the same standard of "refusal to concede" to yourself?Or is there an element of hypocrisy?

And do you have the confidence in your own ideas to put a vinegar towel on your own gun while you wait for the lead slug to dissolve .2mm?

Vinegar will rust steel,or it will not.Would not your academic "science" prefer data born out by experiment ?
Oh,and the peroxide did not appear until your recent contentious and critical response.Had our subject taken your advice when it was presented,would he not have vinegar in his barrel,sans peroxide?

Markhm
January 8, 2015, 04:12 AM
What about chambering a round and shooting the wood out? Life is too short to hand around drilling, pouring acid, vinegar, WD40, CRC, etc. put in on YouTube:D

reynolds357
January 8, 2015, 09:52 AM
That would be a fun project. Get enough wood out to get a pulled down round chambered. (Just primer, powder, and a bit of wax) Put the rifle in a vice. Put a 50 foot rope on the trigger, get behind a blast shield, then put the explosion on youtube. I have always wanted to know what the weakest point in a Mosin is. I am sure that experiment would identify it for us.
Having said that, it might simply clear the bore with no damage. Who knows?

leadloader77
January 8, 2015, 10:47 AM
I have read through your proposals and I really like how you are thinking outside of the box. That is what I was looking for in this forum (out of the box thinking).

However, the lead slug is not really the "BIG" part of the problem. The sections of wood dowel being stuck in the barrel are the "BIG" problem as they extend the majority of the way through the bore. Once the wood pieces are removed it would be relatively easy to remove the lead alloy slug any number of ways including shooting it out with a "bullet removed" cartridge of "light load" as many gun smiths would do if it were just a lead alloy slug.

CowTowner
January 8, 2015, 12:16 PM
OK, I'm not a gunsmith, a chemist, a physicist or even a college graduate.
But if the major problem is the wooden dowel rod pieces, as I have seen mentioned more than once in this thread, then why not:
1. Remove the stock, bolt and other removable parts from the rifle
2. Secure the rifle with the end of the thing with the most wood in it pointed up
3. Squirt some old fashioned Zippo Lighter Fuel into the barrel
4. Light the fuel thus burning the wood and heating the lead.

Now, am I sure this won't ruin the heat treatment done to the barrel? No I'm not. See my first sentence above.
But, I'm just thinking outside the box and trying to use the KISS method.

If this is not an acceptable method according to the many experts we have here, then please disregard it.

jimbob86
January 8, 2015, 12:21 PM
What about chambering a round and shooting the wood out?

How could THAT possibly go wrong? :D

Kosh75287
January 8, 2015, 02:37 PM
Yeah, yeah, kush, you win. There you GO, again, SCRUNCH (THAT one's to make you feel more at home). Nice to know that what you lack in attention to detail, you compensate for, with consistency.

Sorry my typing on my phone is not up to snuff. Yes, I am sorry your typing, and worse still, your attention to detail is not up to snuff, either. BUT, they that the first step on the way to recovery is to recognize that you have a problem, so DO carry on.

Thermodynamics was a 100 level course, physical chemistry was a 200 level course, quantum mechanics was a 400 level course, inorganic chem was a 300 level course, metabolism and regulation was a 400 level course, etc, etc. Based on your descriptions of classes and their academic levels, it is evident that you've been away from the field for a very long time. Perhaps some things have been learned in those subjects, since you "graced" a classroom with your presence.

Done anything lately?
Yes, as a matter of fact. I'm currently engaged in research of the structure-activity relationships of novel phenanthrene-nucleus mu-opioid agonists as possible higher therapeutic index central analgesics and opioid addiction treatments. Rather interesting and cutting-edge stuff! And THANK YOU for your concern over the progress of my career, but it's being managed quite well without your interest. Or was THAT too detailed?


And do you have the confidence in your own ideas to put a vinegar towel on your own gun while you wait for the lead slug to dissolve .2mm?
It would depend on the weapon involved, but yes, I would be willing to try it with a Mosin-Nagant. It might alter the finish, which is nothing that cannot be fixed in a day. To my knowledge, the soviets didn't bother applying finish to the interiors of the barrel. Your point was what, exactly?

HiBC: Hey,Kosh,but,yeah,you did leave out the peroxide,a more grievous error than a typo ,yes?Speck in Scorch's eye,log in yours?[
Not so much and not by a long shot. If all my detractors conveniently glommed onto my oversight as some glaring indictment of my skills as a chemist, I DO apologize to them. But please tell me... WHICH of THESE pointed out my oversight before they did? Scorch? HiBC? ANYone? No logs OR splinters, here, HiBC, but thanks for playing.

It is not ludicrous to suppose the vinegar will penetrate the end grain and splits,and be trapped in the bore.Swelling the wood tighter.From that point on,vinegar is present in the bore.It also interacts with the chemistry of the wood,which may (or not?) affect the corrosive properties of the vinegar.I do not know if acetic acid is more volatile than water,but,if not,would the acidity not increase as the water evaporated?
Yes, trace amounts of acetate might make it into the wood, which would ALSO convert it into CELLULOSE ACETATE, which is also (relatively) soluble in water, and not aggressively corrosive. Would it "affect the corrosive properties of the the vinegar" ? Yes, it would. It would reduce or negate them altogether.

It is not, and never has been my premise that this treatment will remove substantial portions of wood. It IS my contention that one or more such treatments would probably remove enough of the lead to free up the wooden dowel (swollen or not) enough to facilitate removal.

Was I proposing that the OP leave the Acetate/Peroxide mixture in the barrel after said treatments? Not only no, but HEAVENS NO! After 2 or 3 treatments, the gun owner flushes it with hot water. Several times. This increases removal of the lead acetate formed, and trace corrosives remaining. I would have CHEERFULLY emphasized this given the opportunity, but I was bit busy defending the idea against ad hominum attacks by folks who'd never entertained the possibility of it working (and probably never would because obstinacy is always so much more fun than edification).

Oh, and THANKS SO MUCH for letting me offer my suggestion in so open and welcoming a forum! Dreadful sorry that it caused any of you to recoil in terror at the prospect of considering an unorthodox approach to a fairly common problem!

HiBC
January 8, 2015, 02:54 PM
The Moisin was back in 2012.This is a Savage.Try to keep up.

Kosh75287
January 8, 2015, 03:05 PM
Since it's a Savage and not a MN, I stand corrected. I also stand by what I've said.

The Moisin was back in 2012.This is a Savage.Try to keep up.

I will, if YOU will...

aarondhgraham
January 8, 2015, 03:09 PM
I need more popcorn,,,
This flame war is getting good.

Aarond

.

HiBC
January 8, 2015, 03:15 PM
"I will if you will"

You got a deal.

Snyper
January 8, 2015, 03:56 PM
Dreadful sorry that it caused any of you to recoil in terror at the prospect of considering an unorthodox approach to a fairly common problem!
There was never any reason to "consider" your approach

It wasn't worth consideration because, for the many reasons already given, it wouldn't work anyway

reynolds357
January 8, 2015, 04:11 PM
If it is now a Savage and not a Mosin, would not the proper thing to do be open a new thread instead of reviving a dead one. It would be easier to keep up if the thread was actually about what it is supposed to be about.:rolleyes:

Blindstitch
January 8, 2015, 06:28 PM
Yeah the second learning part of this would be to always start a new thread not to confuse people. If need be reference the other thread by inserting the link.

I also thought it was a mosin till I read all 4 pages.

Good luck with the Savage and hopefully others learn from this before getting dowels suck in their barrels.

Snyper
January 9, 2015, 01:08 PM
It would be easier to keep up if the thread was actually about what it is supposed to be about.
It's easy to keep up as long as you read the posts

Blindstitch
January 9, 2015, 05:00 PM
Leadloader77

Will there be more progress this weekend?

5whiskey
January 12, 2015, 12:00 AM
To the OP....

With that said I am already 1/3 of the way through my barrel/wood dowel problem and there is no turning back. I am in agreement with your likely assessment of reduced accuracy. However, being that this was my FIRST hunting style rifle I have to admit that I did purchase it as a "learner" rifle. Most of my firearm experience is with pistols. I reload and cast for a number of calibers and have slugged many bores (with oak dowels no less). Fear not!!! I shall never slug a bore with an oak dowel again!!!

My goal was to learn the basics of long guns and reloading for them. That includes how to cast lead bullets for them. I purchased an entry level Savage Axis 308 for the purpose of learning about 1 year ago.

What you are doing with the aluminum rod is a fair attempt at ending your plight. I *DO like the idea of using the aluminum arrow shaft as a sleeve to protect the bore. kudos to who ever mentioned it. Fear not, for you have hope. Do what you're doing and clear the jam. I would certainly test fire it for accuracy after that. If you're shooting 1" groups at 100 yards, then you win. If not, then you can swap the barrel on a Savage axis yourself with 200 bucks, a barrel nut wrench, vise, and an afternoon of research/work. ER Shaw makes a pretty good inexpensive barrel. I have a varmint contour on my Savage and it shoots less than .5 moa all day every day.


By the way, I'll see your "chemistry up to and including biochem and endocrinology" and raise you my Physical Chemistry I (Thermodynamics) and II (Quantum Mechanics), Inorganic Chemistry, Physical Inorganic Chemistry, Metabolism & Regulation, Advanced Biochemistry and Advanced Synthetic Methods (Organic AND Inorganic).

Yes, as a matter of fact. I'm currently engaged in research of the structure-activity relationships of novel phenanthrene-nucleus mu-opioid agonists as possible higher therapeutic index central analgesics and opioid addiction treatments. Rather interesting and cutting-edge stuff! And THANK YOU for your concern over the progress of my career, but it's being managed quite well without your interest. Or was THAT too detailed?

You know, some of the smartest men I've ever met didn't feel the need to brag about their credentials. Just like many Infantry Marines and Soldiers who have seen hell don't feel the need to jump up every 5 minutes (or 5 days, or 5 months) to remind everyone that they are a war hero. The guys that do feel the need to do this are either fake or extremely arrogant... and regardless of which one it is almost every one else sees them for what they are and tries to steer clear when possible. This is not a personal attack, just some advice from someone who has been around the block once or twice.

BTW, for what it's worth I do admire the research you are doing into alternative opiate analgesics and therapeutic opiate therapy (addiction treatment). Pain pills are a HUGE problem that many people don't recognize. Anyway, back on topic as we've got to keep it firearm related.

tobnpr
January 12, 2015, 08:13 AM
I have worked with brilliant engineers(just ask them,they will tell you)

^^ This, almost made me spit out my coffee this morning...
Brings back memories of structural drawings that looked great to them on paper, not so great when it came to actually trying to build it in the field...

hartcreek
January 12, 2015, 08:37 AM
Hey I suggested a brass rod not aluminum but I seriously doubt that either will damage the rifling. Either are simply too soft.

I too know about some of them engineers......One of my instructors was the head engineer at the Hanford Power Plant.......he made the mistake of bringing his project of radiation sniffers to the class for a critique. Well I sure critigued it..... some engineer no wonder they could not track radiation being emitted from the stacks when the engineer forgets about venturis and places the sensors in the wrong places....

barnbwt
January 12, 2015, 10:00 AM
A better tack is to heat that brass, aluminum, or steel rod and use the hot poker to burn out the center of the wood and melt the lead out.

TCB

reynolds357
January 13, 2015, 05:35 PM
I have been thinking about this. You could take the barrel off. Take it to your local hydraulic shop and buy a fitting that will fit it. Hook the fitting up toa high pressure hand pump. Then pump the wood and slug right out the end of the barrel. It WILL work. If it does not work, get a higher pressure hand pump.

The funny thing is we are talking about doing this for a $150 barrel that takes 15 minutes to swap.:rolleyes:

Blindstitch
January 13, 2015, 07:40 PM
That's funny. I've used the grease method on Muzzleloaders and it works just fine.

It probably wouldn't be my first thought with a rifle but it's a good thought.

jimbob86
January 14, 2015, 01:42 AM
The funny thing is we are talking about doing this for a $150 barrel that takes 15 minutes to swap.

Ah, but it costs us diddley squat to talk about it!

Blindstitch
January 14, 2015, 05:47 AM
This is starting to turn into one of those mastercard ads.

Slug stuck in barrel $0.30, dowel chunks stuck in barrel $0.99, Spending time talking about how to remove it... Priceless.

Snyper
January 14, 2015, 09:51 PM
That's funny. I've used the grease method on Muzzleloaders and it works just fine.

It works on ML's because you already have a place to screw a Zerk fitting

I suspect you won't find fittings to fit a rifle well enough to hold up to the pressure

Picher
January 15, 2015, 11:05 AM
Another shooter fired five .357 lead bullets into his S&W Mod 27, but forgot to add powder, so four stuck in the bore and one only made it half-way out of the cylinder.

He brought it to me to see if I could take the bullets out, so this is what I did and think it should work on the Mosin barrel.

I unscrewed the barrel from the action, then, putting the barrel vertically in a vise, heated it with a torch just enough to melt the first bullet, then the second, etc. It worked very well and didn't damage the barrel because lead bullets melt at temperatures well below that which would damage the barrel.

In this case, I'd mount the barrel muzzle-upward and apply heat until the lead slug melted out and dropped into a pail. Once that's out, heat may loosen the wood by drying it out, but if not, and it's possible to insert a fired case, use one as a drill guide to drill out some of the wood, using a small pilot drill with the side flutes ground off or taped, so they don't touch the rifling.


That's my best advice, for what it's worth.

2damnold4this
January 15, 2015, 11:29 AM
That's a clever plan. I bet the wood burns out and the lead melts out.

CowTowner
January 15, 2015, 11:42 AM
My post #86 on this thread was the low budget version of this. :D

Snyper
January 15, 2015, 04:55 PM
I bet the wood burns out and the lead melts out.
I suspect in this case it will just make a nasty mess since everything has been soaked in various liquids

reynolds357
January 15, 2015, 11:27 PM
Why not just take the torch and cut the barrel in half at the area of obstruction and just take whats left of the lead and charcoal out?

To each his own, but there is no way I would shoot a barrel that had a torch put on it hot enough to melt lead out.

Picher
January 16, 2015, 07:45 AM
I'm not saying to heat the barrel to a red state. Remember that machine gun barrels turn red hot and don't blow up, so uniform heating with a blow torch or heat gun shouldn't damage the integrity of the barrel steel.

jimbob86
January 16, 2015, 10:43 AM
Remember that machine gun barrels turn red hot and don't blow up,

Nope- they won't blow up, but you've pretty well ruined it.

You shoot a machine gun barrel until the outside is glowing red hot and you've ruined it- the inside is hotter yet ( and subject to very high pressures during firing- even if it's chrome lined, it'll wear much faster like this).

Conversely, if you are heating the barrel with a torch from outside, the outside will be much hotter than the inside, I would think ...... how do you controll the heat such that the inside gets above the melting point of lead (622+F) and stays uniformly hot enough long enough that the wood burns out, yet the heat treatment is not affected?

Picher
January 16, 2015, 05:36 PM
You heat it slowly and turn it, so it's an even heat, and play the torch forward and back, so it isn't a hot spot in one location.

Hey, it's either melting out the lead, pulling it out, or scrapping the barrel. We're talking a cheap Mosin here, not an expensive and fine sporter. It should be fine, if done carefully.

If he has any concerns after clearing the barrel, he could always load some proof loads and fire them with the rifle clamped in a vise or tied to a tree. I might do it on a customer's rifle, but it's probably not necessary if he is careful to not overheat the barrel.

(Lead melts at 621.5°F, which is not going to damage steel, which becomes soft at 1,000°F, nearly twice as hot.)

Blindstitch
January 16, 2015, 05:44 PM
I think we lost the poster or should I say secondary thread starter.

The first was about a mosin.

The Second was a guy with a 308 savage which is 3 pages deep.

Pond, James Pond
January 16, 2015, 06:20 PM
I know this thread is oooold, but just out of interest:

I'm not sure I'd feel confident in trying this but would a case loaded with just a primer not work?

Needless to say you'd need to point the muzzle in a very safe direction, but could it work? And if not, would it still be powerful enough to do any damage to the gun?

Snyper
January 16, 2015, 06:36 PM
I'm not sure I'd feel confident in trying this but would a case loaded with just a primer not work?
No, because a "squib load" won't usually push a bullet the full length of a barrel, and the brass wouldn't seal the chamber and hold in the pressure

The only way to push it out without a rod of some sort would be hydraulically

The biggest problem is the wood that has split and turned into wedges which will tighten no matter which way it's pushed

Snyper
January 16, 2015, 06:42 PM
We're talking a cheap Mosin here, not an expensive and fine sporter
You're not reading the posts and paying attention

Picher
January 16, 2015, 07:53 PM
"Mosin barrel slugging gone horribly wrong"

Snyper: What part of Mosin didn't you understand?

Kosh75287
January 16, 2015, 09:34 PM
:D

Blindstitch
January 17, 2015, 11:28 PM
Snyper: What part of Mosin didn't you understand?

Probably the part where after the first page it turned into slugging a savage barrel.

Snyper
January 18, 2015, 03:34 AM
"Mosin barrel slugging gone horribly wrong"

Snyper: What part of Mosin didn't you understand?
I see you haven't been keeping up at all

Go back and read Post # 35
(The first post from 2015, in a thread that started in 2012)

It was explained again in Posts #50, # 62, # 89. # 90. # 94, and # 115 and maybe some I missed

Which part of those posts didn't you understand? ;)

Snyper
January 18, 2015, 03:48 AM
A better tack is to heat that brass, aluminum, or steel rod and use the hot poker to burn out the center of the wood and melt the lead out.
I doubt you'd ever get a rod hot enough for that to work since it can't be much over .25" in diameter, and won't have enough mass to retain the needed residual heat to burn wet wood or melt lead

hartcreek
January 18, 2015, 04:07 AM
I am wondering why the savage is not done yet. I would have chucked that aluminum rod in a cordless drill and adjusted the clutch to limit the torque applied and had the plug out in a few hours easy.

But then I also repaired a bolt handle in an old Remington single shot in 15 minutes last week by disassembling the bolt and center drilling and tapping in a new handle right through the bolt. I used an 1 1/2" 1/4" fine allen headed bolt and a jamb nut and locktighted the bolt and nut in place.

Picher
January 18, 2015, 11:25 AM
Don't you just hate it when someone hijacks an old thread and converts the issue to something else?

Sorry, I missed the switch.

JP

Blindstitch
January 18, 2015, 12:12 PM
What gets me is it has been 10 days since the secondary poster commented and that was their 8 post so most likely we wont get an answer.

hartcreek
January 19, 2015, 02:37 AM
I private messaged him hopefully he will get back to me and post the results.

Blindstitch
January 19, 2015, 03:20 AM
I messaged him friday without a response.

reynolds357
January 19, 2015, 04:59 PM
I think it funny that everyone really cares this much about a Savage Barrel. If this were a heirloom collector rifle worth $10K, I could see it. But a $150(being generous) Savage barrel? :D

Art Eatman
January 19, 2015, 08:17 PM
Six pages looks like enough for now. Maybe later we'll learn of any success. Let's hope so, anyhow. :)