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View Full Version : AR15 carrier tilt, best solution so far?


jason41987
July 8, 2012, 06:41 PM
hey everyone... i know that carrier tilt has plagued AR15s since the dawning of piston driven uppers... and people have tried different solutions to deal with the problem.. what im wondering is whether or not anyones actually managed to fix it yet?

so far, ive seen enlarged carriers, redesigned buffer tubes, and one carrier i seen was shorter than normal with what i believe was an enlarged nylon rear section of the carrier to stabilize it by causing a tighter fit in the receiver, but not being made of hard steel to tear up the inside of the receiver and buffer tube...

so, at this point in time, in july of 2012, what is the best solution to this so far for piston uppers?

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i know someone will state the obvious of leaving an AR15 direct impinged, but that wont answer the question

Rogervzv
July 8, 2012, 07:05 PM
Here is Ruger's answer to your precise question. I have about 1200 rounds through my SR556E and no sign of this issue whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GQuDWCA4Oo

Ridge_Runner_5
July 8, 2012, 07:59 PM
One guy on M4carbine.net designed a buffer that had an extra bit of surface sticking out that would lock into the carrier to keep it level during travel. But then disassembly became a bit of an issue because you needed to move the upper forward to disengage the buffer.

insomni
July 8, 2012, 08:34 PM
One guy on M4carbine.net designed a buffer that had an extra bit of surface sticking out that would lock into the carrier to keep it level during travel. But then disassembly became a bit of an issue because you needed to move the upper forward to disengage the buffer.

Smith & Wesson went with simplifying instead of complicating things and milled a bevel into the bottom edge of their buffer assembly. It acts like a ski, and keeps the assembly from busting up the buffer tube.

Works really well, I'm still not seeing any abnormal wear and tear in that region of mine. I've lost track of my round count. it was at 2500-3000 about 6months ago

jason41987
July 9, 2012, 06:45 AM
i looked at the ruger, and i dont see how their gas system does anything different than any regulated piston system.. however, i can see what they did with their carrier, they added skis to the back end so that the carrier would fit tighter in the receiver and not have the opportunity to rock... i think if anything with the ruger, this is what does the trick for their design...

has anyone seen this solution?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzsE_J3XSWQ&feature=related

it looks like that would do the same as the SR-556s carrier but has a surface thats not going to damage anything

for the buffer assembly.. i have an idea for takedown.. what if you had a secondary retaining piece in the buffer tube, rack the carrier back and push a button or move a lever to lock the buffer tube further back in the buffer for normal breakdown

but i kind of like the blackriflearms solution, what do you think?

BPowderkeg
July 9, 2012, 09:26 AM
i have two LWRC's and one LWRCI piston rifles the oldest one, one of LWRC's first piston guns, it has nearly 10,000 rounds thru it, i see no wear in the buffer tube or any where else in the upper or lower, the LWRCI's M6 has about 3,000 rounds thru it, there once more, i see no wear.

just my OPINION, but, any AR with carrier tilt is a poorly made gun. :eek:

jason41987
July 10, 2012, 11:42 AM
obviously if the carrier was too tight of a fit in the receiver, it would cause way too much friction, heat, and wear on the inside of the upper.. so the carriers are a bit undersized, and the skis are added to the front... well considering the weight in the rear section of the receiver, i cant imagine why they never put skis or some kind of support of the carrier in the rear section of it as well, and i think this is what the problem is...

so, if the carrier has some means of adding support in the rear of the carrier, either by the addition of rear skis, or the plastic bushing i seen in that youtube video i dont think carrier tilt would be much of an issue, and frankly, i cant imagine the reason why even direct impinged carriers wouldnt have a little added support in the form of rear skis either.. seems like an obvious solution that should have been part of the design to begin with...

so just from an engineering standpoint... front and rear skis that fit well would be the way to go.. and heck, i wish i could find a carrier with oversized skis so i could file them down by hand for a perfect fit

Arizona Smithshooter
July 10, 2012, 03:28 PM
My M&P 15PS (Piston) is a year old, has gone through countless magazines of ammo without 1 failure and shows no signs of excessive wear. By far the most dependable and accurate rifle I have ever owned. Cleans up with a rag, some Hoppes 9, boresnake and about 20 minutes time. Would buy it again in a heartbeat......

Cameron
July 10, 2012, 06:10 PM
The BEST solution for carrier tilt is to simply stick with a direct impingement AR.

Cameron

btmj
July 10, 2012, 09:10 PM
Wow, this thread only took 9 replies before it went over the cliff.

Rogervzv
July 10, 2012, 10:23 PM
Wow, this thread only took 9 replies before it went over the cliff.

+1 ... I know a number of shooters who shoot piston ARs and none of them are having the carrier tilt problem. My SR556E after 1000 rounds is still pristine.

BPowderkeg
July 11, 2012, 09:59 AM
reading about "carrier tilt" here and elsewhere, the subject of carrier tilt is becoming a fallacy. :eek:

jason41987
July 11, 2012, 12:54 PM
so youre all saying with better designs in the gas key and carrier design has done a pretty good job at eliminating carrier tilt as a problem in decent made rifles?

i was debating going with a gas system in a future build not so much for the advertised reasons, but just to make cleaning a little quicker, easier, tidier, and to keep the heat in a less expensive part of the rifle

Arizona Smithshooter
July 11, 2012, 03:11 PM
Here is a link to the Adams Arms piston. It is the one used in the S&W M&P 15PS. There is no gas key or staking to worry about. Having shot and cleaned DI guns, my M&P piston gun is the best I have ever owned. The only place it gets a bit dirty is the front of the handguard, but it cleans easily with a rag and Hoppes 9. By the way, the weight of the piston rod, spring and bushing is 6.5 ounces.

http://adamsarms.net/images/explodedviewdiagram.pdf

http://www.adamsarms.net/

Wyoredman
July 11, 2012, 05:09 PM
I have about 1200 rounds through my SR556E and no sign of this issue whatever.


I second this statement. I have +/- 6000 rounds through my SR556E and there is absolutly NO sign of buffer tube ware, at all, period!

When I purchased the rifle, everyone was sounding off about buffer tube wear and how piston guns will "wear a hole in my stock", etc. etc. etc. So I was keenly aware of the potential problems!

I must say, Ruger has gotten the design of their bolt carrier 100% correct, because as of 6,000 rounds, not one sign of tilt!

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 07:44 PM
I thought Cameron had a good solution! :D Anyway, it's the one I use.

Wyoredman
July 11, 2012, 08:48 PM
The only problem with Cameron's answer is the OP didn't ask about DI guns, he asked about piston guns. :p

BPowderkeg
July 13, 2012, 09:22 AM
http://adamsarms.net/images/explodedviewdiagram.pdf

i would like to see a schematic of ALL piston systems like this one, is there any way this could be done ? i am familiar with only two systems out of the many variations.

Rogervzv
July 13, 2012, 10:02 AM
so youre all saying with better designs in the gas key and carrier design has done a pretty good job at eliminating carrier tilt as a problem in decent made rifles?

i was debating going with a gas system in a future build not so much for the advertised reasons, but just to make cleaning a little quicker, easier, tidier, and to keep the heat in a less expensive part of the rifle

Exactly.

The cleaning is a LOT easier and it is great fun to examine the bolt carrier assembly after a day of shooting and see that it is absolutely pristine. In mine I generally pull out the piston, drench it in Hoppes 9 bore cleaner while I clean the barrel and chamber, and then apply a brass toothbrush to the piston. Generally the bolt carrier assembly just takes a wipe-down with a light CLP. Takes a couple of minutes and the rifle is ready to go back in the safe.

jason41987
July 13, 2012, 11:58 AM
aah.. hoppes 9 eh, powerful smell, and does anyone find it odd i actually enjoy the smell of it?... not to get off topic though, but what kind of accuracy decrease have you noticed going from DI to piston?

Arizona Smithshooter
July 13, 2012, 07:24 PM
"Accuracy Decrease" ???????????? This 100 yard target was shot by a 68 year old grandma who happens to be my wife. She did even better the next time out. M&P 15 PS...Piston. Accuracy decrease...I don't think so.


http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/AZPicTaker/AR15Target.jpg

jason41987
July 14, 2012, 08:34 AM
awesome, i think ill go piston then for future builds