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ww4970
July 6, 2012, 10:54 PM
I just got my first Bushmaster I just wanted to hear what you guys think of bushmaster.

madcratebuilder
July 7, 2012, 07:03 AM
Like any commercial grade AR they are generally GTG. The current owners of Bushmaster have lost a little in the area of customer support. I've owned different Bushmaster for almost twenty years now, still have two of them. They have been fine rifles, keep them lubed and run good ammo in good mags and you'll be fine.

Don't be concerned with the brand name snobs saying X or Y is better than Z. Just learn how to maintain the fire arm. Download a copy of the Army manual, google "TM 9-1005-319-23&P". This well cover all you need to know.

ScottRiqui
July 7, 2012, 08:23 AM
I have a Bushmaster XM15-2es that I've been very happy with. It's a bare-bones A2-type rifle with no upgrades/modifications, because I wanted a practice rifle that's very close to what I use to qualify with in the Navy. The trigger is a little rough, but then again, so are the ones on our qualification rifles.

I bought it used from the local Marine gun range for $600. They sell theirs fairly frequently, before they've accumulated many rounds, so it didn't have many signs of wear. I don't have any complaints, and would have no problems recommending them to anyone else.

10Ringmagic
July 7, 2012, 08:29 AM
I have a XM15 E2 Bushmaster that I bought brand new four years ago.

It has been a great AR, never once failed to go bang when the trigger is pulled, just as accurate as my Colt.

boostedtt91
July 8, 2012, 03:16 PM
I have a bushmaster 7.62x39 AR which i bought a few years back as my first AR15 rifle. I have always been a huge fan of Bushmaster and believed they made some of the best ar15's on the market and had amazing customer service. Unfortunatly that has changed ever since Remington took them over, now they have horrible service,i called them after the switch to buy a Varmint upper from them and they guy said he never heard of them and didnt know they made them. Very sad such a great company was ruined so quickly. Id be interested in hearing how there new stuff is compared to there old

eldorendo
July 8, 2012, 03:31 PM
I believe they were better rifles when they were made at the Windham plant.

DeadCenter
July 8, 2012, 07:07 PM
My first AR was a Bushmaster 223, I still have it and it still shoots greats. I have no complaints. Since I don't shoot it to much anymore, I am planning on buying a grendel barrel and converting it to something I'll shoot again :)

JWT
July 8, 2012, 07:57 PM
Have a Bushmaster .223 that I've owned for several years. No problems of any kind. Completely satisfied with it.

FrosSsT
July 8, 2012, 08:22 PM
I have a Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolmans Carbine and it has been great. Dont get fooled by a name. Colt, Bushmaster, Stag, and the other 5 million AR manufacturers are just like Sony, LG, and Samsung when it comes to TV's - They are for the most part the same, with a different name and emblem stamped on the side. Take care of it, and it will serve you for a very, very long time. Dont let anyone come into the picture and tell you otherwise.

theunderdog1982
July 8, 2012, 08:50 PM
I have a new production (January 2012) Bushmaster Patrolman and I love it. Hasn't malfunctioned yet. It has properly staked gas keys,m4 feed ramps black crano ring. I keep waiting for it to blow up in my hands because it seems people keep coming to me with stories about how they knew someone with a Bushmaster that blew up or something of that nature. I've done mag dump after mag dump and nothing yet. I just keep it lubed up and it works flawlessly.

Justice06RR
July 9, 2012, 07:40 PM
I also owned a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine 5.56/.223 that was flawless. it was my first AR (sold it already) but that was a fantastic rifle. I would echo what others said that Bushmaster AR's are just as good as some top/mid-tier rifles, and probably better than DPMS and OLY.

Post pics of yours, we all love pics you know :D

theunderdog1982
July 9, 2012, 09:36 PM
I haven't compared brands..

Crow Hunter
July 9, 2012, 09:54 PM
I haven't compared brands..

I never said you did.

I was poking fun at Frossst.

If you enjoy your rifle and it does what you want it to do, what difference does it make what I or anyone else says?

If you told me that you had owned 5 Colts and every one of them jammed constantly, broke after 50 rounds, etc. I would just smile and go on, because the 5 that I have, are fine and work for me. I wouldn't, however, state that you were just parroting things that you had heard from someone else or that it was impossible that you would have 5 rifles all that were bad.

I would just take it at face value that you had those problems. At most, it might prompt me to take a look at things you had mentioned to make sure that I didn't have the same problem.

I definitely wouldn't take it personal like some people seem to do (not necessarily you). I would just file it away as data.

Do you take my listing of problems that I have had and information that I have about Bushmaster rifles and parts produced between 2004 and 2008 as a personal insult?

I hope not. Because it isn't meant to be.

I don't take the warranted criticism about Colt's stupid half moon semi-auto carrier, offset front take down screw or stupid .170 dia FCG pins personally and I won't own Colt rifles that have these things.

I have no idea what Bushmaster rifles made since 2008 are like. I can't make a useful statement like that because I don't own any and I don't know anyone who does. All I can say is that the rifles that I have had experience with were not at the same level of quality as the Colts produced during a similar time period.

theunderdog1982
July 9, 2012, 10:01 PM
I have looked at all the so called problems Bushmasters have and my particular rifle has none of those problems. I hear Bushmasters have poorly staked gas keys. Checked mine and compared them to a colt's staking and they looked identical. I've heard they come with a blue insert in the extractor instead of a black crano ring.Looked at my extractor, it had a black crano ring. I've heard Bushmasters don't have m4 feed ramps, Looked at mine sure enough it did. The only two things I found on my rifle that was true what no castle nut staking which isn't a big deal I did it in under 5 minutes and it doesn't have an F marked front sight post, but it shoots spot on so that doesn't bother me.

ww4970
July 10, 2012, 12:23 AM
i have no problems with mine i was really just woundering what peoples take on them was i would recomend them to anyone.

Crow Hunter
July 10, 2012, 07:45 AM
I've heard they come with a blue insert in the extractor instead of a black crano ring.Looked at my extractor, it had a black crano ring.

It's the insert inside of the extractor spring they are talking about. Not the "Crane" O-ring.

Bushmaster's come with "Crane" O-rings now? They didn't used to. That would help because they used to be overgassed and they used a carbine buffer and a shrouded semi-auto carrier. (I think Crane only uses the O-ring for the really short barrelled rifles)

Colt doesn't use them, they have smaller gas ports and they use a full auto carrier/H buffer which slows the cycling down and keeps the extractor from getting yanked off the case rim.

It is good that they have fixed the items that you listed. The rifles that I had didn't have them. However, the more important parts are the things that you can't necessarily see, if you don't see them side by side. That is what I noticed when I compared them.

I didn't like the lack of radiusing on the cam pin hole (sharp corners are stress risers), the fact the carrier wasn't tested for hardness, the cast extractor, the lack of shot peening for stress relief on the bolt.

That being said, I would actually prefer that they didn't High Pressure Test 100% of the the bolts, it shortens the life by a fairly significant amount.

I would also prefer they did something other than MPI on the bolts to check for cracks. That is a visual check, which at best is only 85% effective and it only detects flaws near to the surface. An eddy current test or X-ray or ultrasonic would be much more reliable.

As long as you like it and it does what you want it to do. That is what is important. If it doesn't then you can fix/upgrade it as needed.

I personally didn't like it, especially for the miniscule price differential. $1050 vs $1175 at the time. (And the Colt came with (2) 20 round mags and a cleaning kit)

theunderdog1982
July 10, 2012, 07:54 AM
Yes here's the extractor from factory.
http://i45.tinypic.com/hv6qz5.jpg

And while we're at it the the staking on the gas key.
http://i49.tinypic.com/bd83r.jpg

Crow Hunter
July 10, 2012, 08:02 AM
That is very good staking job. Much nicer than any of the ones that I had on my Bushmasters. The one's on mine just barely touched the screws. I used a center punch and counter staked them for insurance.

Maybe most of the builders have gotten this right.

I saw a Olympic the last time that I went to the public range in Paris. The staking job was even better than the one you posted.

It's problem was accuracy rather than function. Of course, all that junk the guy had attached without tightning down/witness marking probably had something to do with it.:D

Can you take a picture of the extractor groove itself and the back of the extractor? I would find it interesting to see if there is a difference now that Cerberus is running them. The used to use cast extractors.

theunderdog1982
July 10, 2012, 08:16 AM
What do you mean the groove? Like take a picture of the bolt without the extractor in it? Is this what you want to see?
http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqa3ip.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/w1rck2.jpg

Crow Hunter
July 10, 2012, 09:02 AM
I'm sorry. Had to go do a test unit.

The groove in the extractor that holds the case rim.

The opposite side of the O-ring.

theunderdog1982
July 10, 2012, 09:25 AM
http://i49.tinypic.com/nl39zc.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/9pt7oz.jpg

Crow Hunter
July 10, 2012, 09:51 AM
Thanks

Unfortunately, they still seem to be using a near net shape cast extractor.

But as long as you have a spare you should be good to go. Just do an inspection when you clean and make sure that groove isn't chipping out, if it looks really worn, swap it out.

theunderdog1982
July 10, 2012, 10:03 AM
It should be fine for a while I dont send that many rounds down range every trip maybe if im lucky 300 rounds so I don't think it will be a problem for a while.

Crow Hunter
July 10, 2012, 12:00 PM
It may very well last forever. You never know.

I think the standard NSN replacement extractor is cast as well, but I am not sure.

FrosSsT
July 10, 2012, 08:28 PM
I was poking fun at Frossst.


Well I'd stick with poking fun at people over the internet instead of poking holes at 500 yards with your pony if I was you too.

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 12:33 AM
I agree with much that Crow Hunter has said here. If you have a Bushmaster and it's working well for you, great. But if you're buying a new AR it makes more sense to buy Colt or BCM over BM. For a similarly configured rifle the price is pretty close and you know you're getting quality with Colt or BCM.

Crow Hunter
July 11, 2012, 07:46 AM
Well I'd stick with poking fun at people over the internet instead of poking holes at 500 yards with your pony if I was you too.

It is certainly much cheaper that way. ;)

How often do you do it? What type of optic do you use? Do you do it from field positions or do you use a bench? I only do it 5 or 6 times a year and I do it with a Aimpoint Comp M4 from rice paddy prone or sitting (depending on how muddy it is:D). The stubble is usually too high to go prone.

By they way.

How about answering the question.

Dont get fooled by a name. Colt, Bushmaster, Stag, and the other 5 million AR manufacturers are just like Sony, LG, and Samsung when it comes to TV's - They are for the most part the same, with a different name and emblem stamped on the side.

If this is true, why did you buy the Bushmaster instead of getting the lowest priced, lowest "reputation" rifles out there?

You are just paying for the Bushmaster name and roll mark, you could have saved somewhere around $200+ that will do the same thing. Right?

Have you taken a Bushmaster apart and compared it directly to a Colt or other "high reputation" brand? Do you have the training/knowledge/experience casting/machining metal alloys to know the difference?

Can you see the differences between these?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493373

I am not saying to made a bad choice. Not everyone "needs" a Colt or BCM level of quality. I don't, but I wanted it. ;)

If it fits your usage and it is reliable and does what you want it to, have fun and don't get wrapped around the axle when someone states data that you don't like.

But it isn't the same.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 08:41 AM
Quentin and Crow, Colts are not immune from troubles.. you could head over to ar15.com and see a thread 11 pages long about a Colt blowing up after the first time the guy shot it..I've also seen threads where a brand new colt was scratched and the receiver was chipped all to hell.. Like any firearm you should inspect it before you bring it home, if it looks good it should work so I wouldn't tell someone not to buy a Bushmaster, But what do I know I just own a new production Bushmaster. I took my Bushmaster apart and compared to a colt it doesn't look that different especially the staking job. Tell me Crow what are 90 percent of AR owners going to do with their AR-15? Are they just going to go to the range and shoot paper or are they going to Afghanistan?

Why do the haters seem to come in Bushmaster threads? Maybe I should go in every brand thread and crap on each brand... My so called hobby gun functions correctly so telling me that colts have higher quality parts means absolutely nothing to me. You seem to be caught up in the my brand is better than your brand but the thing is no one cares, you tell us that if your rifle works be happy.I'll tell you the same thing, if your rifle works be happy but don't come in a thread tell me how my rifle sucks compared to yours because 1 that's trolling and 2 for my purposes it works just as good as yours.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 08:58 AM
I have a Bushmaster that's never given me a lick of trouble, but I can appreciate some of the engineering differences that go into making a Colt AR, and I don't think they're overpriced or overhyped. It's not that the Colt is in a completely-different league, but there are some subtle differences in materials used, and the testing processes employed.

As an example, look at the linked thread in Crow Hunter's last post. Do you see how the cam pin hole in the Colt's bolt has had its edges "broken", or radiused slightly, compared to the Sig's cam pin hole, which is just a sharp hole drilled through the bolt? That chamfer on the edge of the hole reduces stress risers (areas on a part where stresses are concentrated because of an abrupt or sharp change in the shape of the part). It's a subtle difference, but from a manufacturing standpoint, it's not free. Now, 99.9% of the ARs out there will never have a problem with the bolt cracking, whether the cam pin hole's edges are radiused or not, but when Colt is selling tens of thousands of guns to agencies who are willing and able to pay for the extra work, it's a worthwhile engineering consideration.

In short, I think the differences between a Colt and Bushmaster are real but small, and they're in the region of "diminishing returns", where you're spending a significant amount of design or manufacturing money in order to get incremental changes. That's why I went with the Bushmaster - I'm probably getting 98% of the Colt's functionality and reliability for about 80% of the price. But for me, the consequences of an unlikely failure are likely going to be limited to a paper target getting to live another day. Other organizations have different priorities.

Crow Hunter
July 11, 2012, 09:17 AM
Quentin and Crow, Colts are not immune from troubles.

Absolutely correct.

Every rifle can have quality defects from the factory. I personally have had more issues with rifles from Bushmaster than I have with Colt. Others may have completely different experiences. Maybe they will share them.

And I am not saying that Colts are perfect, in any way shape or form. As a matter of fact, until the fairly recent past, they were pains in the behind because of all the "politically correct" things they did to their civilian rifles that could cause feeding issues and made it complicated/expensive to get upgrade/replacement parts. That was one of the reasons that I went with Armalite then Bushmaster when I 1st got into AR's back in 1998.

All I am saying, is that the Colts that I own and have seen use a higher grade of parts based on my experience in machining. And that personally, I have had issues with Bushmaster rifles.

I also had 2 Bushmasters (a 20" and a M4gery) that never had a single problem. If anything, the one M4gery was a little bit more accurate than my #1 6920 (the one I shoot the most). I think it may have had a 5.56 chamber that was on the tight side of the spec.

Like any firearm you should inspect it before you bring it home

Very good advice. That kept me from taking a Bushmaster home that I wouldn't have been able to get the upper off the lower.

Tell me Crow what are 90 percent of AR owners going to do with their AR-15? Are they just going to go to the range and shoot paper or are they going to Afghanistan?

Shooting paper and blasting away at the range. That is why I specifically said that it would be fine for 90% of all civilian gun owners.

Why do the haters seem to come in Bushmaster threads? Maybe I should go in every brand thread and crap on each brand...

I don't hate Bushmaster. I think they are fine rifles for what they are. But if someone says that they paid $970 for one and asks if they got a good deal when they could have spent just a little bit more or close to it and gotten a much better rifle. I am going to say they didn't get that good of a deal. If someone said they paid $750 for a Bushmaster, that is a good deal.

If someone says I don't know what I am talking about, I am going to provide the data by which I make my decision. I am not a firearms expert, I may jsut be terribly unlucky picking Bushmaster guns.

If someone says that they have had nothing but problems with Colt or BCM or any brand and say they prefer Brand X because of their data. That is good information and I would like to know it. That way I can keep an eye out and verify that I don't have the same problem on my rifles.

I am not trying to insult anyone. I am just stating facts as I understand them. If others have contradictory info and want to share it, that is good. That is what forums are for. Exchange of information and ideas.

Do you see how the cam pin hole in the Colt's bolt has had its edges "broken", or radiused slightly, compared to the Sig's cam pin hole, which is just a sharp hole drilled through the bolt? That chamfer on the edge of the hole reduces stress risers (areas on a part where stresses are concentrated because of an abrupt or sharp change in the shape of the part). It's a subtle difference, but from a manufacturing standpoint, it's not free. Now, 99.9% of the ARs out there will never have a problem with the bolt cracking, whether the cam pin hole's edges are radiused or not, but when Colt is selling tens of thousands of guns to agencies who are willing and able to pay for the extra work, it's a worthwhile engineering consideration.

Yep.:D

That's why I went with the Bushmaster - I'm probably getting 98% of the Colt's functionality and reliability for about 80% of the price.

Yes. When you are getting a Bushmaster for $970 and a Colt costs $1,500 it is a very good deal.

But when a Bushmaster is going for $970 and a Colt is going for $1050, it isn't such a good deal in my opinion. (My buddy just got one for that about 1 month ago)

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 09:19 AM
I don't hate Bushmaster. I think they are fine rifles for what they are. But if someone says that they paid $970 for one and asks if they got a good deal when they could have spent just a little bit more or close to it and gotten a much better rifle. I am going to say they didn't get that good of a deal. If someone said they paid $750 for a Bushmaster, that is a good deal.

A much better rifle? If the gun goes bang and hits what your aiming at I don't know how much of a better rifle you can get. I don't care if a Colt uses different metal all that matters to me is that it shoots and hits what I am aiming at so to me a rifle can't get any better if it does those two things.

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 09:27 AM
A much better rifle? If the gun goes bang and hits what your aiming at I don't know how much of a better rifle you can get.

I hear that a lot at the local matches typically right before someones rifle craps the bed on em mid stage.

I got tools from Harbor Freight that will wrench a bolt on and off but that doesn't make them quality tools compared to my Snap On's. The Snap On's are better because they will continue to work after years of hard use while the Harbor Freight tools will not. Same can be said when comparing AR's.

Nothing wrong with Bushmasters as they make a great commercial grade AR, but why buy one if its costing you what it would to buy professional grade like Colt or BCM?

I really can spell, however Tapatalk keeps screwing everything up!

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 09:32 AM
Yes. When you are getting a Bushmaster for $970 and a Colt costs $1,500 it is a very good deal.

For me, the decision wasn't even that close. My Bushmaster (a basic fixed-stock A2 style) was a lightly-used military range rental for $616 out the door. I know that's a used gun and not a new one, but that's still several hundred dollars less than I would likely have been able to find a used Colt for, and I probably wouldn't have known as much about the service/usage history of the used Colt. For *my* purposes, I wouldn't have gotten much of a return on any extra investment - I'm happy taking the difference and using it to make ammo.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 09:32 AM
I got tools from Harbor Freight that will wrench a bolt on and off but that doesn't make them quality tools compared to my Snap On's. The Snap On's are better because they will continue to work after years of hard use while the Harbor Freight tools will not. Same can be said when comparing AR's.

Nothing wrong with Bushmasters as they make a great commercial grade AR, but why buy one if its costing you what it would to buy professional grade like Colt or BCM?

I really can spell, however Tapatalk keeps screwing everything up!

So condescending lol Bushmaster makes a great commercial rifle but buy something else because you know BCM is better LOL. If you all are going to say Bushmaster sucks just come out and say it but don't tell me how great they are then tell me I and other could of done better.

A Bushmaster will last a long time if you maintain it properly but will wear out in time the same thing can be said with a BCM or Colt or any other brand. Parts wear out with use a Colt and BCM's parts won't last forever.. If you're gonna tell me a Bushmasters parts wear out faster do you have proof of that?

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 09:41 AM
So condescending lol Bushmaster makes a great commercial rifle but buy something else because you know BCM is better LOL. If you all are going to say Bushmaster sucks just come out and say it but don't tell me how great they are then tell me I and other could of done better.

A Bushmaster will last a long time if you maintain it properly but will wear out in time the same thing can be said with a BCM or Colt or any other brand parts wear out with use a Colt and BCM's parts won't last forever.. If you're gonna tell me a Bushmasters parts wear out faster do you have proof of that?

See that's the thing.....they may well last forever if properly maintained. The only science to this is that any product made to a higher standard from higher quality parts will last longer than a product made from parts of lesser quality. The military uses a set "minimum " standard of what works well thru hard use over the long haul.
Like I said, nothing wrong with Bushy for most folks but I advise people not to pay $900+ for them when you can get a Colt or BCM for the same price. You wouldn't pay $40k for a Kia or Suzuki pick up truck when you could get a Ford/Dodge/Chevy would you?

Buying a Bushy for $700 or less ain't a bad deal to me.

I really can spell, however Tapatalk keeps screwing everything up!

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 09:47 AM
See that's the thing.....they may well last forever if properly maintained. The only science to this is that any product made to a higher standard from higher quality parts will last longer than a product made from parts of lesser quality. The military uses a set "minimum " standard of what works well thru hard use over the long haul.
Like I said, nothing wrong with Bushy for most folks but I advise people not to pay $900+ for them when you can get a Colt or BCM for the same price.


What did I say I use my rifle for? And how many rounds Do I send down range if i'm lucky? I do not care what standard the military uses I'm not going to be taking out terrorists.

If there's nothing wrong with them then why are you telling me different? And you advise people not to buy them..But you said there's nothing wrong for most folks,who do you advise? Navy Seals?

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 09:48 AM
Excluding the Carbon 15, it's pretty easy to spend nearly as much for a Bushmaster as for Colt or BCM... And more than PSA or Spikes, which rival Colt even with a low price point. So when buying, unless the BM is a steal, there are better choices available.

A couple things not mentioned about BM, a friend had me help zero his BM after he replaced the stock carry handle with a milspec height flip up rear sight. We couldn't zero unless the front post was unscrewed out to where it flopped around. Finally we found BM has a taller post to fix the problem, but why not use the proper height for a flat top receiver in the first place!

Later he bought a nicer stock and got bit again - BM doesn't use the standard milspec diameter receiver extension! Sure you can send it back for exchange but why shouldnt BM adhere to proper dimensions if they're selling a Colt or FN knockoff?

TacticalDefense1911
July 11, 2012, 09:49 AM
I just got my first Bushmaster I just wanted to hear what you guys think of bushmaster.

A little late to ask now isn't it?

If its going to be used for serious or hard use (i.e. LE, home defense or training classes) I'd pass but for most people with an AR that only gets out a couple times a year to fire a couple hundred rounds at paper or milk jugs then they are okay for the most part. They have their deficiencies which have been noted which may cause a problem but if breaking down on the target range is your biggest fear then thats up to you if thats okay or not. Personally, I spend a little more to get it right the first time but its my money, not yours.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 09:52 AM
If its going to be used for serious or hard use (i.e. LE, home defense or training classes)

Home defense is hard use? Who are you defending your home from lol. Telling me not to use my Bushmaster for home defense is a little much when you don't know my rifle. I go shooting twice a month, not that much but it's worked every time so why wouldn't it work if someone broke into my house?

Typical though because its a Bushmaster my rifle will fail and fall into pieces as soon as a bad guy enters my home because I don't own a Colt or BCM. :rolleyes:

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 09:53 AM
What did I say I use my rifle for? And how many rounds Do I send down range if i'm lucky? I do not care what standard the military uses I'm not going to be taking out terrorists.

If there's nothing wrong with them then why are you telling me different? And you advise people not to buy them..But you said there's nothing wrong for most folks,who do you advise? Navy Seals?

Sir, you are free to do what you will with your owner money so need to take it so personal. All I keep saying is that Bushmasters are fine rifles but they are not equal to Colt or BCM when it comes to materials and construction. For that simple reason it wouldn't be wise to buy one if its gonna cost you what you'd pay to buy a Colt or BCM. To me that logic sticks regardless to whether a person shoots 100rds or 10,000rds annually.

I really can spell, however Tapatalk keeps screwing everything up!

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 09:55 AM
Home defense is hard use? Who are you defending your home from lol

I think home defense falls under the "serious" part of his comment, not the "hard" part. In other words, the consequences of a malfunction are more likely to be grave when you're talking about a home defense weapon compared to one that just sees range use.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 09:57 AM
I think home defense falls under the "serious" part of his comment, not the "hard" part. In other words, the consequences of a malfunction are more likely to be grave when you're talking about a home defense weapon compared to one that just sees range use.

Ok? So my rifle will fail in a climate controlled room but function in 90+ heat? Gotcha.:rolleyes:

A Bushmaster isn't a toy its a real firearm and real firearms can kill. Telling me that since my gun is only shot at the range its not capable of taking out a bad guy is just ridiculous. Especially when my rifle has been reliable, I have yet to see one single malfunction, so why wouldn't I be able to use it for self defense? Because its not a Colt or BCM??

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:05 AM
Ok? So my rifle will fail in a climate controlled room but function in 90+ heat? Gotcha.

*Any* gun will function 100% reliably -- right up until the point where it doesn't.

If you're convinced that point doesn't occur any earlier or later, regardless of the brand of weapon, and that the extra steps that Colt takes in order for their rifles to perform well on the military tests (and under actual use) are just voodoo and don't provide any tangible benefits, then I'm not likely to change your mind.

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 10:08 AM
Thunder, its okay really.....enjoy your Bushmaster as I'm sure it will serve you well. You sound more like a Harbor Freight Tool kinda guy so you're never really gonna understand the point that several people are making to you.

LOL, this kinda reminds me of the time I was trying to explain to my brother in law why LEO's don't carry Hi Points to save the city some money. Hi Point actually makes a decent pistol and his has gone bang everytime, BUT Police Officers choose other options for a reason ;)

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:12 AM
*Any* gun will function 100% reliably -- right up until the point where it doesn't.

If you're convinced that point doesn't occur any earlier or later, regardless of the brand of weapon, and that the extra steps that Colt takes in order for their rifles to perform well on the military tests (and under actual use) are just voodoo and don't provide any tangible benefits, then I'm not likely to change your mind.

Yeah exactly and that goes for Colts and BCM's, telling me that my rifle will all the sudden cease to work because a bad guy entered the room is voodoo. The "professional" grade AR's experience malfunctions too.

The thing is telling me not to use something to protect myself when Its been reliable to the point of being boringly reliable is just bad advice. I don't just shoot 1 round at paper that gets boring. I've done mag dump after mag dump ( not good for accuracy but good for stress) and it hasn't jammed yet.

It sounds like you're trying to justify to yourself why you bought a certain brand of rifle. My point is if it works, it works. Its not all the sudden blow up because a bad guy entered the room. A Bushmaster or any other brand of AR doesn't care whats in front of it.
Thunder, its okay really.....enjoy your Bushmaster as I'm sure it will serve you well. You sound more like a Harbor Freight Tool kinda guy so you're never really gonna understand the point that several people are making to you.



LOL, this kinda reminds me of the time I was trying to explain to my brother in law why LEO's don't carry Hi Points to save the city some money. Hi Point actually makes a decent pistol and his has gone bang everytime, BUT Police Officers choose other options for a reason

A Bushmaster isn't the HIPOINT of the AR world.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
Again, if it's your opinion that the different materials and manufacturing processes that Colt uses, along with the additional factory testing make no difference whatsoever in reliability other than in cases of extreme or long-term use, I'm not going to argue with you.

But don't write my comments off as "Bushy-bashing" - I own a Bushmaster, not a Colt, and I'm happy with my choice, too. But with degrees in engineering and physics, as well as 18 years of military service so far, I can appreciate the engineering differences between the two rifles.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:26 AM
Again, if it's your opinion that the different materials and manufacturing processes that Colt uses, along with the additional factory testing make no difference whatsoever in reliability other than in cases of extreme or long-term use, I'm not going to argue with you.

But don't write my comments off as "Bushy-bashing" - I own a Bushmaster, not a Colt, and I'm happy with my choice, too. But with degrees in engineering and physics, as well as 18 years of military service so far, I can appreciate the engineering differences between the two rifles.


My comment has nothing to do with materials or processes. It has everything to do with how my rifle has functioned. I never mentioned anything about materials when we started talking about home defense.

But telling me a Bushmaster will fail when I need to pull the trigger to save me life is I wont say wrong but its an unknown, its worked very well every time I shot it so I believe it will work. If you've served 18 years in the military you've had to see a Colt malfunction at some point in you're career. Materials and process's don't matter some times.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:30 AM
It sounds like you're trying to justify to yourself why you bought a certain brand of rifle. My point is if it works, it works. Its not all the sudden blow up because a bad guy entered the room. A Bushmaster or any other brand of AR doesn't care whats in front of it.

I think we're talking past each other at this point. Again, I didn't claim that home defense use is hard on a rifle - like you said, the rifle doesn't know what's in front of it. All I said was that *if* a malfunction *does* occur, the consequences are likely to be more dire in a home-defense scenario.

In the military, we use what's called "Operational Risk Management". When you're evaluating risk, two distinct factors come into play; the *probability* of a mishap, and the *severity* of a mishap should one occur. In the evaluation, they're both given equal consideration. A malfunction during home defense isn't a higher-probability mishap compared to a malfunction at the range, but it *is* a higher-severity mishap, so the level of assumed risk (again, a combination of probability AND severity) is higher.

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 10:33 AM
Sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees.

Nobody is questioning the fact that your rifle has functioned 100%.
Nobody is questioning that idea that it shoots straight and bang everytime. Nobody is saying it wouldn't work if you needed it to defend your life.
All we are saying is that it isn't built of the same quality materials or to the same standards as a Colt or BCM and for that reason it would not be the best move to buy one IF it were priced at the same point as a Colt or BCM.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:34 AM
I think we're talking past each other at this point. Again, I didn't claim that home defense use is hard on a rifle - like you said, the rifle doesn't know what's in front of it. All I said was that *if* a malfunction *does* occur, the consequences are likely to be more dire in a home-defense scenario.

In the military, we use what's called "Operational Risk Management". When you're evaluating risk, two distinct factors come into play; the *probability* of a mishap, and the *severity* of a mishap should one occur. In the evaluation, they're both given equal consideration. A malfunction during home defense isn't a higher-probability mishap compared to a malfunction at the range, but it *is* a higher-severity mishap, so the level of assumed risk (again, a combination of probability AND severity) is higher.

I have yet to have a malfunction yet at the range I have a little over 3k rounds through it with not a single malfunction. I know 3k isn't that much but i'm not rich so I can't blow 1000 rounds every range trip. But 3k with no malfunction is a pretty good indicator that it wont malfunction when I need to pull the trigger. Its not like i'd be getting into a huge fire fight in a home defense situation. If I did i'd have bigger problems than just what brand of rifle I own.

Sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees.

Nobody is questioning the fact that your rifle has functioned 100%.
Nobody is questioning that idea that it shoots straight and bang everytime. Nobody is saying it wouldn't work if you needed it to defend your life.
All we are saying is that it isn't built of the same quality materials or to the same standards as a Colt or BCM and for that reason it would not be the best move to buy one IF it were priced at the same point as a Colt or BCM.

The only ones comparing brands are you and scott. You two keep coming at me with will this is better than Bushmaster or that's better than Bushmaster. I do not care, My rifle functions that's all I care about I do not care about Colt or BCM but it seems like you two keep bringing them up. You two are trying to force me into a brand vs brand argument.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:39 AM
My comment has nothing to do with materials or processes. It has everything to do with how my rifle has functioned. I never mentioned anything about materials when we started talking about home defense.

Unless you're talking about a rifle that's seen tens of thousands of rounds and many years of use, performance generally doesn't degrade gradually until it eventually stops workings. Breakages are sudden - everything will function perfectly right up until the point that something breaks.

Do you actually think that the materials and processes that go into designing and manufacturing a rifle, as well as the manufacturer's quality assurance practices have no effect whatsoever on when breakages occur?

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:42 AM
Unless you're talking about a rifle that's seen tens of thousands of rounds and many years of use, performance generally doesn't degrade gradually until it eventually stops workings. Breakages are sudden - everything will function perfectly right up until the point that something breaks.

Do you actually think that the materials and processes that go into designing and manufacturing a rifle, as well as the manufacturer's quality assurance practices have no effect whatsoever on when breakages occur?

Ok scott, I've had enough. My rifle will fall to pieces in my hands as soon as a bad guy breaks into my house because you told me my rifle will fail when someone breaks in. I'll run and buy a Colt. :rolleyes:

This is ridiculous. Scott i'm going to continue to use my rifle and use it for home defense, if it fails when someone breaks in like you say it will i'm sure you'll hear about it on the news..

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 10:47 AM
Okay 3K troublefree rounds is a good number. I can relate to that round count because I had a non MP/HPI'd Bolt in one of my AR's that had given me roughly 3,500rds of troublefree usage. Well one day it sheered a lug off in the middle of a local match. The broken lug wedged itself in the barrel extension thereby locking the rifle up till I got out my tool box. Woulda sucked if that had happend during a situation where it were really important. See its the little things like that extra testing that some companies do that matters. Doesn't mean a tested part won't fail, however the failure rate drops considerably due to that extra level of testing weeding out any parts with non visible defects. That means a lot considering 3,500rds was below average bolt life expectancy. Bushmaster doesn't do this extra QA testing which baffles me since its not that expensive. Like I said, your stuff may very well continue to remain troublefree for another 10K rds, but I now prefer to use higher quality tools to plan for Mr. Murphy cause he loves to show up at the wrong time.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/photobucket-2347-1324945742939.jpg

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:48 AM
All we are saying is that it isn't built of the same quality materials or to the same standards as a Colt or BCM and for that reason it would not be the best move to buy one IF it were priced at the same point as a Colt or BCM.

Exactly. Like I said, I got my Bushy for $616 and have been thrilled with it. But if you had tacked on another 50% to the price tag, and/or told me that I might someday be relying on it to save my life, then I would have at least taken a hard look at the other options (not just Colt), knowing what I know about what's involved in producing the various choices.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:50 AM
Okay 3K troublefree rounds is a good number. I can relate to that round count because I had a non MP/HPI'd Bolt in one of my AR's that had given me roughly 3,500rds of troublefree usage. Well one day it sheered a lug off in the middle of a local match. The broken lug wedged itself in the barrel extension thereby locking the rifle up till I got out my tool box. Woulda sucked if that had happend during a situation where it were really important. See its the little things like that extra testing that some companies do that matters. Doesn't mean a tested part won't fail, however the failure rate drops considerably due to that extra level of testing weeding out any parts with non visible defects. That means a lot considering 3,500rds was below average bolt life expectancy. Bushmaster doesn't do this extra QA testing which baffles me since its not that expensive. Like I said, your stuff may very well continue to remain troublefree for another 10K rds, but I prefer to use higher quality tools plan for Mr. Murphy cause he loves to show up at the wrong time.

Thank you for another comparison comment..

Exactly. Like I said, I got my Bushy for $616 and have been thrilled with it. But if you had tacked on another 50% to the price tag, and/or told me that I might someday be relying on it to save my life, then I would have at least taken a hard look at the other options (not just Colt), knowing what I know about what's involved in producing the various choices.

All i'm saying is i'm not interested in comparing.. I've learned from scott that my rifle will magically fail when someone breaks in because its not a Colt and because Colts never fail. That's all I need to know.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 10:53 AM
Ok scott, I've had enough. My rifle will fall to pieces in my hands as soon as a bad guy breaks into my house because you told me my rifle will fail when someone breaks in. I'll run and buy a Colt.

My God - do you know how I know you're *still* not reading my posts? I'm not saying anything of the sort.

But unless you believe that materials, processes and quality assurance practices have NO bearing on reliability WHATSOEVER, then you have to admit that with each trigger pull, you have a higher probability of a failure occurring with some rifles than with others. If you've worked that into your risk assessment analysis and found it to be acceptable, then you've done your due diligence.

My only argument is with people who argue that functionality and reliability are indistinguishable between the various brands, and that they differ only in their roll marks.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:55 AM
My God - do you know how I know you're *still* not reading my posts? I'm not saying anything of the sort.

But unless you believe that materials, processes and quality assurance practices have NO bearing on reliability WHATSOEVER, then you have to admit that with each trigger pull, you have a higher probability of a failure occurring with some rifles than with others. If you've worked that into your risk assessment analysis and found it to be acceptable, then you've done your due diligence.

My only argument is with people who argue that functionality and reliability are indistinguishable between the various brands, and that they differ only in their roll marks.

I'm not one of those people. I never compared a Bushmaster to a Colt and vice versa. All I said was my rifle works so I trust it, if you can't accept that then that's just to bad. Even if it did fail I have several options close by, Ak47,Mossberg 500 persuader, XD .40 and a few others..

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 11:04 AM
All i'm saying is i'm not interested in comparing.. I've learned from scott that my rifle will magically fail when someone breaks in because its not a Colt and because Colts never fail. That's all I need to know.

When you find yourself blatantly misrepresenting someone else's statements, or taking them to an illogical extreme, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your position.

I'm going to sum up everything I've said in this thread in three statements. If you have a cogent argument with any of them, I'm genuinely interested in hearing it:

1) Firearms generally function 100% reliably, right up until the point that they don't.

2) Materials, manufacturing processes and quality assurance practices have a measurable effect on the reliability of a firearm.

3) Some situations inherently involve more risk than others, either by virtue of a mishap being more likely, or because the severity of a mishap being greater if one does occur.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 11:09 AM
When you find yourself blatantly misrepresenting someone else's statements, or taking them to an illogical extreme, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your position.

I'm going to sum up everything I've said in this thread in three statements. If you have a cogent argument with any of them, I'm genuinely interested in hearing it:

1) Firearms generally function 100% reliably, right up until the point that they don't.

2) Materials, manufacturing processes and quality assurance practices have a measurable effect on the reliability of a firearm.

3) Some situations inherently involve more risk than others, either by virtue of a mishap being more likely, or because the severity of a mishap being greater if one does occur.


The problem with this is firearms regardless of brand have malfunctions. It doesn't take long to search on the internet to find someone with a malfunctioning firearm REGARDLESS of brand. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that just because one rifle is a Colt that it wont ever experience a problem, telling me it wont experience a problem when its brand new is bogus as well. If you want me to find you a problem with a brand new rifle I can google it and find you a malfunctioning Colt,Bushmaster or what have you. So telling me my Bushmaster will work up until the point when someone breaks in well the same could be said for any brand of rifle. I'm not saying that my rifle is better than others but Colts do have problems like a Bushmaster it just all depends, each firearm is different. You could have a perfectly working Colt with thousands of rounds through it and then have someone with a brand new Colt and having problems with it off the bat, the same with a Bushmaster or any other company.

Striker1
July 11, 2012, 11:12 AM
Okay 3K troublefree rounds is a good number. I can relate to that round count because I had a non MP/HPI'd Bolt in one of my AR's that had given me roughly 3,500rds of troublefree usage. Well one day it sheered a lug off in the middle of a local match. The broken lug wedged itself in the barrel extension thereby locking the rifle up till I got out my tool box. Woulda sucked if that had happend during a situation where it were really important. See its the little things like that extra testing that some companies do that matters. Doesn't mean a tested part won't fail, however the failure rate drops considerably due to that extra level of testing weeding out any parts with non visible defects. That means a lot considering 3,500rds was below average bolt life expectancy. Bushmaster doesn't do this extra QA testing which baffles me since its not that expensive. Like I said, your stuff may very well continue to remain troublefree for another 10K rds, but I now prefer to use higher quality tools to plan for Mr. Murphy cause he loves to show up at the wrong time.


Just curious, how often you cleaned and inspected your parts?

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 11:20 AM
You can't honestly sit there and tell me that just because one rifle is a Colt that it wont ever experience a problem, telling me it wont experience a problem when its brand new is bogus as well.

Again, I've never said anything of the sort. Read my #2 statement - I said that all of those things have an effect on reliability - I never said that they GUARANTEE 100% reliability. Yes, Colts fail - no one has EVER said otherwise. But you can't make any authoritative statement as to their failure RATE from internet posts. But the fact that some rifles pass tests that others don't can give you at least some empirical evidence.

So telling me my Bushmaster will work up until the point when someone breaks in well the same could be said for any brand of rifle.

I never said that a malfunction with your rifle would have anything to do with WHEN you're choosing to use it. And yes, ANY rifle can fail unexpectedly - that's generally how it happens (statement #1). But the likelihood of a failure with any given trigger pull is higher with some rifles than with others (statement #2). If you choose to make a particular firearm your first choice in a home defense scenario, that entails additional risk compared to using it solely as a "range toy", because of the potential severity of a mishap (statement #3).

I will add another comment - Some level of risk is always acceptable, or else we'd never do anything. No one is saying that you have to buy the absolute best rifle out there, and then have every single part x-rayed, magnafluxed, eddy-current tested and visually inspected before it's suitable for "life or death" use.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 11:30 AM
I will add another comment - Some level of risk is always acceptable, or else we'd never do anything. No one is saying that you have to buy the absolute best rifle out there, and then have every single part x-rayed, magnafluxed, eddy-current tested and visually inspected before it's suitable for "life or death" use.

This I can agree with, All I ever said was through thousands of rounds I haven't had a malfunction. It could happen but it could happen with a Colt or BCM. I don't go running through buildings and shooting dummies with my rifle I go to the range and shoot paper, and the occasional 100, 150 round mag dump just for kicks. It's worked so to me that's enough to prove to me that if I need to pull the trigger once or twice on a bad guy that it'll go off when I need it to. It may not but that's a chance I have to take but so far its proven to me that it will.

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 11:36 AM
Striker, I typically clean mine up between 500-750rds or so unless I'm taking a 2 day class where I don't clean at all till end of class. That bolt had ust been cleaned the week before and had shown no signs of what was to happen.

ScottRiqui
July 11, 2012, 11:37 AM
This I can agree with, All I ever said was through thousands of rounds I haven't had a malfunction. It could happen but it could happen with a Colt or BCM. I don't go running through buildings and shooting dummies with my rifle I go to the range and shoot paper, and the occasional 100, 150 round mag dump just for kicks. It's worked so to me that's enough to prove to me that if I need to pull the trigger once or twice on a bad guy that it'll go off when I need it to. It may not but that's a chance I have to take but so far its proven to me that it will.

See, we're in agreement after all. You've managed your risk and found it to be acceptable to you.

But that's far from "all you ever said". You were making absolute statements, such as that a Colt "won't ever experience a problem" or that your Bushmaster "will fail and fall into pieces as soon as a bad guy enters my home because I don't own a Colt or BCM", and then attributing those sentiments to me, just so you could argue against them. No one ever said anything even closely approaching that. You never had a good argument against anything that I actually said.

Striker1
July 11, 2012, 11:45 AM
Striker, I typically clean mine up between 500-750rds or so unless I'm taking a 2 day class where I don't clean at all till end of class. That bolt had ust been cleaned the week before and had shown no signs of what was to happen.

Hard for me to see but did it have the relief cut behind the lug? Actually, I have never seen a BCG assy like that one.

Wahoo95
July 11, 2012, 12:07 PM
I don't recall that bolt having relief cuts. I no longer have it as it was sent back for warranty replacement.

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 03:02 PM
... All we are saying is that it (Bushamster) isn't built of the same quality materials or to the same standards as a Colt or BCM and for that reason it would not be the best move to buy one IF it were priced at the same point as a Colt or BCM.

What's so wrong with the logic above? Why does it anger people? Anyone who does adequate research before buying a large ticket item will try to buy the best brand within their budget. (Why buy Insignia if for about the same price you can get Sony, Samsung or LG?) You can get a BCM upper for around $620 and build up a stripped lower using good components for $250. Add a VTAC or VCAS sling and two PMAGs and you've got a value priced rifle that can stand up to hard use. I just did this a few months ago, and did it a year ago with a Daniel Defense upper. Will they outperform a BM? Who knows when you're talking one or two examples but I like my odds.

Again, no one is attacking BM and if you have one that's reliable, great. But should they be recommended to new buyers over everything else in their price range? Should everyone here sit quiet and allow "as good as" claims to go unchallenged?

FrosSsT
July 11, 2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Well I'd stick with poking fun at people over the internet instead of poking holes at 500 yards with your pony if I was you too.
It is certainly much cheaper that way.

How often do you do it? What type of optic do you use? Do you do it from field positions or do you use a bench? I only do it 5 or 6 times a year and I do it with a Aimpoint Comp M4 from rice paddy prone or sitting (depending on how muddy it is). The stubble is usually too high to go prone.

By they way.

How about answering the question.

Quote:
Dont get fooled by a name. Colt, Bushmaster, Stag, and the other 5 million AR manufacturers are just like Sony, LG, and Samsung when it comes to TV's - They are for the most part the same, with a different name and emblem stamped on the side.
If this is true, why did you buy the Bushmaster instead of getting the lowest priced, lowest "reputation" rifles out there?

You are just paying for the Bushmaster name and roll mark, you could have saved somewhere around $200+ that will do the same thing. Right?

Have you taken a Bushmaster apart and compared it directly to a Colt or other "high reputation" brand? Do you have the training/knowledge/experience casting/machining metal alloys to know the difference?

Can you see the differences between these?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493373

I am not saying to made a bad choice. Not everyone "needs" a Colt or BCM level of quality. I don't, but I wanted it.

If it fits your usage and it is reliable and does what you want it to, have fun and don't get wrapped around the axle when someone states data that you don't like.

But it isn't the same.

First Im not going to go back and fourth with you over an internet forum, second I will not play the game 21 questions with you. You are a prime example on the old saying "The loudest one in the room is the weakest"

But to inform you I barely use the m4 after I got my scarh.

FrosSsT
July 11, 2012, 03:23 PM
HK & noveske rifleworks make bushmaster and colt's both look bottom barrel. There - I just killed it, mods please close :D

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 03:41 PM
I agree: HK, Noveske and Colt make fine rifles. :p

Crow Hunter
July 11, 2012, 03:43 PM
First Im not going to go back and fourth with you over an internet forum, second I will not play the game 21 questions with you. You are a prime example on the old saying "The loudest one in the room is the weakest"

No problem. You are right. I am obviously the weakest in the room. I had to resort to data....:rolleyes:

"If you can't attack the man's argument successfully, attack the man."

(ad hominem)

Enjoy your Scar H by the way.

My brother has one. The trigger is terrible, but it is an accurate rifle. Kicks less than his Larue Predatar even though it is a slightly lighter gun.

The only issue he has is finding a good quantity of magazines.

FrosSsT
July 11, 2012, 03:47 PM
The only issue he has is finding a good quantity of magazines.

Like I said, not going to to go back and fourth bud:D

But anyways, At $70 a piece I can hardly imagine why. I only have 3

Crow Hunter
July 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
At $70 a piece I can hardly imagine why. I only have 3

I think he as 5 of them. (He is still trying to get 5 more)

Occasionally his friend that owns a gun store gets some in.

They are supposed to MSRP at $38.:mad:

The gun shop gets them for like $27 something. He gets them for $30 :eek: when they get them in, but they are few and far between. And he has no choice of colors, (Black with a FDE gun).

Keep a watch out for early D&H production ones. They have problems. The best are Belgians (no CAGE code).

I don't know how to tell the difference between the old and new D&H mags.

The good news is the failures to feed happen from the start, so if what you have is working, they probably aren't one of the problem ones.

Swap the brake out to a AAC Blackout (like the ones the military uses), it makes it MUCH quieter and really doesn't increase the recoil that I could tell.

I like shooting it. Although the trigger takes some getting used to. When he first got it and we were shooting it, I would flip the safety off and start squeezing and squeezing, I would ask "Is the dang safety still *BOOM*...:D

It didn't help that we were shooting it back to back with the Larue that has a Gissele trigger in it. Now that was nice.:cool:

FrosSsT
July 11, 2012, 04:17 PM
The trigger does not bother me. I have a berreta cx4 storm that has the same kind of feel to it. The magazines are a bit of an issue for me because I can only have 15 rounds max (NJ) The scarh is dark earth and thats what I have. I wouldnt mind black too much though, itd match the irons. He should look into the glass that I have. I have a trijicon ta11e. same as the chevrons the military uses (just calibrated for 7.62x51)

I kind of put all my range time on hold because of financial issues on my next purchase. I want to get into the .338 lapua game with the savage 110ba for 1200+ yards.....with the nightforce nxs ;)

Crow Hunter
July 11, 2012, 06:27 PM
He has been swapping back and forth between an US Optics 1.8 X10 and a Trijicon TR24. He tried out an ACOG on his M1a in the EBR chassis, but he didn't like it. I don't know which one, he got it in a trade and sold it before I even saw it.:(

I want to get into the .338 lapua game with the savage 110ba for 1200+ yards

My brother wants one of those too, but I don't think that he has overcome the ammo price yet.:eek:

He has the one in .308 though. It is a very nice shooter. Sweet trigger and no recoil at all with the weight. It is very quiet with his AAC suppressor. Much quieter than either the Larue or the SCAR. That is one of his only complaints about the SCAR, it is quite a bit louder than either the Larue or the bolt gun.

theunderdog1982
July 11, 2012, 10:19 PM
See, we're in agreement after all. You've managed your risk and found it to be acceptable to you.

But that's far from "all you ever said". You were making absolute statements, such as that a Colt "won't ever experience a problem" or that your Bushmaster "will fail and fall into pieces as soon as a bad guy enters my home because I don't own a Colt or BCM", and then attributing those sentiments to me, just so you could argue against them. No one ever said anything even closely approaching that. You never had a good argument against anything that I actually said.

You and wahoo kept wanting to make this a brand vs brand argument. I did not, when I said it hasn't malfunctioned you and wahoo would bring up Colt and BCM. I do not care about Colt or BCM. I am happy with my Bushmaster so i'd rather not hear about how great Colt and BCM is.

Quentin2
July 11, 2012, 11:56 PM
I do not care about Colt or BCM. I am happy with my Bushmaster so i'd rather not hear about how great Colt and BCM is.

We're happy that you're happy with your BM. But one suggestion: if you buy a second AR, give Colt and BCM a hard look, you'll be glad you did.

From the other thread you said you saw your BM in Walmart and bought it on the spot for $973. My BCM came in for about that, just something to think about. Also you could have picked up a PSA for much less, they are an amazing value and are building a good reputation. I thought long and hard about PSA but for the extra $100 went with BCM since it's a sure thing.

In the end, more research and less emotion will lead a new AR buyer to the best values out there.

madcratebuilder
July 12, 2012, 06:09 AM
I agree: HK, Noveske and Colt make fine rifles.

As much as I love my prancing ponies, Colt does not reach the same level of fit and finish as Noveske Rifle Works does. Colt's are very utilitarian in comparison.

Crow Hunter
July 12, 2012, 07:07 AM
As much as I love my prancing ponies, Colt does not reach the same level of fit and finish as Noveske Rifle Works does. Colt's are very utilitarian in comparison.

You got that right.

All of my Colts had/have white assembly grease visible or smeared on the barrel/barrel nut. The same grease was all over the bolts in 2 of them.

The one of the handles looked like it had been dropped in a parts bin a couple of times. (I sold them anyway and went with Larue BUIS)

None of them had what I would call a uniform finish. (All the parts were a different shade of green or gray) No comparison at all to the Armalite that I had back in 1998.

If someone want a pretty gun, the Colt most likely won't be the best choice.

However, it doesn't bother me at all. If anything I prefer that. I don't cringe when I get it hung in briars or hit the barrel when crossing a log or hit the edge of the safe getting it out. I am not making it look any worse.:D

madcratebuilder
July 14, 2012, 08:08 AM
However, it doesn't bother me at all. If anything I prefer that. I don't cringe when I get it hung in briars or hit the barrel when crossing a log or hit the edge of the safe getting it out. I am not making it look any worse.

+10

I'm always relieved after I get the first ding on a new build, after that first one I don't give a damn.

Art Eatman
July 14, 2012, 09:13 AM
Puh-leeze! It's "...don't give a dam." Comes from the dab of clay a tinker used when repairing a leaking pot or pan, back in Merrye Olde England. He'd make a little dam around the hole, to keep the solder from running off. After the job was done, he'd toss away the little dab as worthless. :)

ScottRiqui
July 14, 2012, 09:20 AM
Puh-leeze! It's "...don't give a dam." Comes from the dab of clay a tinker used when repairing a leaking pot or pan, back in Merrye Olde England. He'd make a little dam around the hole, to keep the solder from running off. After the job was done, he'd toss away the little dab as worthless.

That's interesting, and that explains why I've sometimes heard it as "I don't give a tinker's dam(n)".

Crow Hunter
July 14, 2012, 10:55 AM
Oops. Double tap.

Crow Hunter
July 14, 2012, 10:56 AM
Cool.

I didn't know that!

Makes much more sense now.

I always wondered how you could verb a verb.

:D

madcratebuilder
July 15, 2012, 08:43 AM
Puh-leeze! It's "...don't give a dam." Comes from the dab of clay a tinker used when repairing a leaking pot or pan, back in Merrye Olde England. He'd make a little dam around the hole, to keep the solder from running off. After the job was done, he'd toss away the little dab as worthless.

A Tinkers dam is not a Tinkers Damn.

Something that is insignificant or worthless.


1. Slang something of negligible value; jot (esp in the phrase not worth a damn)
not give a damn Informal to be unconcerned; not care

Origin

There's some debate over whether this phrase should be 'tinker's dam' - a small dam to hold solder, made by tinkers when mending pans, or 'tinker's damn' - a tinker's curse, considered of little significance because tinkers were reputed to swear habitually.

If we go back to 1877, in the Practical Dictionary of Mechanics, Edward Knight puts forward this definition:

"Tinker's-dam - a wall of dough raised around a place which a plumber desires to flood with a coat of solder. The material can be but once used; being consequently thrown away as worthless."

That version of events has gone into popular folklore and many people believe it. After all, any definition written as early has 1877 has to be true doesn't it?

Knight may well have been a fine mechanic but there has to be some doubt about his standing as an etymologist. There is no corroborative evidence for his speculation and he seems to have fallen foul of the curse of folk etymologists - plausibility. If an ingenious story seems to neatly fit the bill then it must be true. Well, in this case, it isn't. The Victorian preference of 'dam' over 'damn' may also owe something to coyness over the use of a profanity in polite conversation.

That interpretation of the phrase was well enough accepted in Nevada in 1884 for the Reno Gazette to report its use in the defence of a Methodist preacher who was accused of the profanity of using the term 'tinker's dam':

"It isn't profane any more to say tinker's dam. The minister stated that a tinker's dam was a dam made by itinerant menders of tinware on a pewter plate to contain the solder".

The same view was expressed in the Fitchburg Sentinel newspaper in 1874.

The problem with that interpretation is that all those accounts ignore an earlier phrase - 'a tinker's curse' (or cuss), which exemplified the reputation tinkers had for habitual use of profanity. This example from John Mactaggart's The Scottish Gallovidian Encyclopedia, 1824, predates Knight's version in the popular language:

"A tinkler's curse she did na care what she did think or say."

In the Grant County Herald, Wisconsin, 1854, we have:

"There never was a book gotten up by authority and State pay, that was worth a tinker's cuss".

So, we can forget about plumbing. The earlier phrase simply migrated the short distance from 'curse' to 'damn' to give us the proper spelling of the phrase - tinker's damn.

:)

Bushmaster1313
July 15, 2012, 09:05 AM
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1026.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1023.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1028.jpg

Art Eatman
July 15, 2012, 09:50 AM
My version of the tinker's dam story dates back to the 1600/1700 era. Dang Johnny-come-latelies, anyhow! :D

theunderdog1982
July 15, 2012, 10:21 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/24b9dfc.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2n71kjb.jpg

sailskidrive
July 15, 2012, 10:39 AM
Unfortunately, they still seem to be using a near net shape cast extractor.

But as long as you have a spare you should be good to go. Just do an inspection when you clean and make sure that groove isn't chipping out, if it looks really worn, swap it out.

Interestingly enough, I just sold a Bushmaster LR308 MOE Middy on consignment. The shop owner told me the buyer brought it back two days later claiming it wouldn't extract; a quick look at the extractor revealed the extractor claw had sheared off.

I had 420 rounds through it of mil surp and steel.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/sailskidrive/1398658b.jpg

theunderdog1982
July 15, 2012, 10:46 AM
Nevermind. Thought you had a 5.56. I'm going to get a BCM BCG soon.

Quentin2
July 15, 2012, 06:47 PM
... I'm going to get a BCM BCG soon.

I think that's an excellent move. It doesn't hurt to have a spare BCG anyway. I will warn you they often morph into another AR though! :p

I got a Daniel Defense BCG for my ArmaLite and put the orginal aside for a few months. Then bought a DD upper and later a BCM upper. Now all uppers have the same brand BCG and no spares again... I'm almost afraid to buy one. :D

Of course it goes without saying that uppers grow lowers very quickly. :o

madcratebuilder
July 16, 2012, 09:14 AM
theunderdog1982, nice para cord sling, what weave pattern is that?

theunderdog1982
July 16, 2012, 09:15 AM
theunderdog1982, nice para cord sling, what weave pattern is that?

Double cobra.

JKHolman
July 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
WW4970,
I bought my XM15 E2S a few years ago to round out my collection. Went from a corncob foregrip / carry handle model to a four-rail flattop.
Found that I did not care for the rails and switched to an MOE handguard.
Thru the modifications, I had to learn to like it. Now it is one of my favourite weapons to fire.

enjoy,

JKHolman