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DeltaCypher0
July 4, 2012, 02:21 AM
Im new to The Firing Line, and a new shooter in general. I picked up my hunting license this spring and plan to hunt small game during season. I picked up a Ruger 10/22 and i'm not impressed with it much. Out of the box, it shot about 5 inches left at 50yds bench rest. I had to mount TechSights on it and severely adjust the windage to zero it in. I'm interested in picking up another .22 preferrably in bolt action, and I was wondering which brand makes a quality rifle that would be very accurate with its stock iron sights. Id prefer an American company, but ive heard good things about CZ. any advice would be great. Thanks in advance.

Rustle in the Bushes
July 4, 2012, 02:35 AM
i was here last year

savage-cons- flimsy trigger(when flicked to side) flimsy stock, ugly IMO.
pros- GREAT value, super accurate. made in Canada, I like getting that american money.


CZ 452- cons- more $$$
pros- way nicer stock, especially if wood. trigger kit is 10$ for a set of springs to adjust it to wherever you want.(yodave trigger kit). features built in dovetail scope mounts. also shoots amazing



I got the CZ 452 FS, man I love it

SteelChickenShooter
July 4, 2012, 02:46 AM
Of all the 22's I've had there is one iron sight stand out- that is the CZ. I put the rear sight on the 50 yard mark, new out of the box, took one shot, and I was done dialing it in.

10-96
July 4, 2012, 02:56 AM
I haven't tinkered with an Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, or any of those way high priced rifles, but I do know I wouldn't be totally put to shame if I was to go toe to toe against them with my CZ 452 MT.

the rifleer
July 4, 2012, 03:21 AM
the sights have nothing to do with the rifle's accuracy potential. With that said, CZ is very hard to beat for the money.

TheBear
July 4, 2012, 03:45 AM
a cz 455 would be a great choice.

jhenry
July 4, 2012, 09:35 AM
The OP may wish to know which decent .22 has the most user friendly, easy to hit with, precision iron sights from the factory.

As has already been pointed out, the sights themselves have nothing to do with the accuracy of the rifle. All they do is allow the user to take advantage of whatever potential the rifle has.

DeltaCypher0
July 4, 2012, 04:54 PM
I was just wondering which brand of rifle would have the best iron sights that are factory mounted which are in sync with the gun's accuracy. I guess it's kind of difficult to state what I mean. I want a rifle that is very accurate, and the sights that come factory mounted on it can produce accurate results. My Ruger 10/22's factory sights would never allow me to shoot accurately because the rifle itself shot left by about 5 inches, so looking down the barrel, I would always shoot left. Most factory sights seem to only allow elevation adjustments, and windage is unable to change.

SteelChickenShooter
July 4, 2012, 05:24 PM
If the rear sight on my 10-22 is anything like yours, I'd expect you could drift it over using a plastic punch and a small brass hammer to correct your error.
Take a look to see if it's mounted in a dovetail. Take a good look to see if it is centered or if it looks like you could drift it over a bit.

gwnorth
July 4, 2012, 05:31 PM
Dovetailed sights do indeed allow for windage by drifting the sight - the mallet and punch method just mentioned.

SteelChickenShooter
July 4, 2012, 05:35 PM
I went back to read the first post and realize now my post above this one is not in line with what you are looking for. To say again, the only rifle I've had in 22 rimfire, new out of the box, with dead nuts sights was my CZ. If I remember right, I've needed to drift the rear sight on about all rifles using irons. An exception might be the Charles Daly Zastava. But since I use a scope on that, I never tried the iron sights and removed the rear to fit the scope. I bet if I was to put it back on, it might be as accurate as the CZ.

SteelChickenShooter
July 4, 2012, 05:45 PM
Presuming a 15 inch sight radius, if your 10-22 is like mine, your sight would have been off by .042". If it looked like it was well centered, and you needed .042" correction, a person might say that's severe (just like you said). However, if it was hanging off one side, and tapping it over .042" put it pretty much equal in the groove, then I'd say it was way off from the factory and just needed to be set right by the shooter.

DeltaCypher0
July 4, 2012, 05:54 PM
Well, I did mount TechSights on my 10/22 which are aperture sights very similar to to ones on an M14 and allow for windage and elevation. I still had to adjust the windage severely over to the right to compensate for the 5in deviation to the left at 50yds. I guess most factory sights can be adjusted, I never thought of moving the rear sights over in the dovetail. But, I guess what it really comes down to is which brand makes the most accurate .22 rimfire rifle? And again, I'd prefer it to be American made although I'm hearing CZ is very good. Price isn't much of an issue.

jdh
July 4, 2012, 07:32 PM
If you can find one in good used original condition it is hard to beat a Remington 511, 512 or 513 in the target version. They had good apature sights.

Bart B.
July 5, 2012, 07:25 AM
It's nye impossible for anyone to pick up any rifle with iron sights and be assured it will shoot where they aim it. We all hold rifles differently, align the sights differently, use the trigger differently and follow through differently. Add all these up and one might understand why that even after getting a tack driver zeroed at some range every person will have different sight settings for zeroing it at a given range. And yes, even a rimfire 22 has enough recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel to make a difference.

Besides, what if the user shoots different ammo that what the factory person sighted the rifle in with?

The most accurate sporting .22's these days are probably made by Anschutz. A 1416 D KL Classic .22LR retails for about $950 with iron sights that are adjustable.

gwnorth
July 5, 2012, 08:57 AM
I'd also add that most manufacturers do not sight in weapons by live fire. Sights are installed usuing a jig or other mechanical alignment system. Usually a single or two test rounds are fired (usually from a full clamp rest) to test function, then it is packaged and shipped.

While you may get lucky, factory sights will almost always require some adjustment, of windage, elevation or both. One of my 1892s was sighted very close to true out of the box, but I've never really had a new gun with iron sights that did not need a bit of adjustment. The winchester manuals do discusses using a mallet to adjust for windage as necessary and I would hope any gun with dovetailed sights would also have a similar section.

Eghad
July 6, 2012, 12:31 AM
Add a scope to that 10-22....

sholling
July 6, 2012, 02:19 AM
Im new to The Firing Line, and a new shooter in general. I picked up my hunting license this spring and plan to hunt small game during season. I picked up a Ruger 10/22 and i'm not impressed with it much. Out of the box, it shot about 5 inches left at 50yds bench rest. I had to mount TechSights on it and severely adjust the windage to zero it in. I'm interested in picking up another .22 preferrably in bolt action, and I was wondering which brand makes a quality rifle that would be very accurate with its stock iron sights. Id prefer an American company, but ive heard good things about CZ. any advice would be great. Thanks in advance.
10/22s are fun reliable rifles but right out of the box are only capable of 2-3 MOA groups (1-1.5" @ 50yds) with bulk ammo. That said if you're that far off in one direction then there is something wrong with the rifle. I rebuild them into absolute tack drivers as a hobby and have 6 or 7 that I've done in my collection so I know a bit about the subject. The first thing to check is to make sure nothing is pushing the barrel off to one side. It's unlikely but it can happen - it can even be a defective stock pushing the barrel to one side.

The next thing to check is the attachment of the barrel to the receiver. It's not super uncommon for the block holding the barrel to the receiver to be torqued down unevenly causing the barrel to be pulled to one side. Pull the action out of the stock by removing the barrel band and takedown screw and check that the barrel is held in correctly by loosening the attachment block and then tightening it evenly. There is almost nothing on a 10/22 that you can't fix or replace yourself. It's idiot simple which is why there is such a huge industry producing goodies to tune them and enhance accuracy. You can have some serious fun modifying that 10/22 and with money and patience it's possible to make them just as accurate as a CZ.

The last possibility is that the receiver's scope mounting holes (used by the Tech-Sight) were drilled incorrectly. If that's the case it's the one thing that would require a trip back to Ruger.

You can tune that 10/22 with a few hundred in replacement parts and a lot of patience or just go buy a very accurate CZ455 Lux. The Lux model is designed for use with iron sights while the American and Varmint versions are designed for scopes. I've owned a CZ453 Varmint and it was a pretty nice rifle, but just my luck my 1st one was a lemon that patterned like a shogun. CZ replaced the rifle with no hassles but I eventually sold it and bought an Anschutz.

Just keep in mind that no rifle is going to give you 1-MOA accuracy with cheap ammo. If you want to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of the rifle you'll have to do it with match ammo. But 22s are weird and there is a lot of trial and error to find which brand and model of match that your rifle likes best.

j3ffr0
July 6, 2012, 10:02 AM
I'm pretty new to shooting myself and recently bought a 1022 Takedown. Mine is well zeroed out of the box, but I didn't expect that. The rear site on the 1022s they are putting out now is adjustable and I was prepared to do tweak it the first trip to the range.

SteelChickenShooter
July 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
I agree a 10-22 is not so great for out of the box accuracy, and I know standard ammo can be much more accurate than high velocity. I was not happy with my initial 10-22 accuracy, but that was blamed on a really crummy trigger. I replaced it with a Timney kit and that resulted in a much tighter group. The rifle then was acceptable for my intended plinking. Certainly this model can be worked on to give really good results covering a wide range of user purposes.

DeltaCypher0
July 6, 2012, 11:25 AM
Sholling, thanks for the advice. I just took my 10/22 apart and I'm not sure where the resting block is, but I did notice that the piece holding my barrel in was crooked. (Is this the piece you were talking about?) I loosened the hex screws and took off the part and realigned my barrel and refastened the piece back in so it was squared off with everything. I hope this improves my accuracy, I can't wait to get it to the range tomorrow.

sholling
July 6, 2012, 11:54 AM
Sholling, thanks for the advice. I just took my 10/22 apart and I'm not sure where the resting block is, but I did notice that the piece holding my barrel in was crooked. (Is this the piece you were talking about?) I loosened the hex screws and took off the part and realigned my barrel and refastened the piece back in so it was squared off with everything. I hope this improves my accuracy, I can't wait to get it to the range tomorrow.
That's it. I suspect that was your problem but next time that you have it apart I'd also examine the stock for warpage and also examine the barrel band for defects.

Edit: Let us know how it shoots.

mr.t7024
July 7, 2012, 06:54 AM
How much do u want to spend? I like the Savage with the accu trigger, enough models to make you happy!:) Cliff

rtpzwms
July 7, 2012, 07:01 AM
Take a look at these (http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?menu=106&sprache=1).

Slamfire
July 7, 2012, 07:18 AM
This is the prettist five shot 50 yard group I have shot in competition. I shot this with my Anschutz, prone with scope, at 50 yards.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/AnschutzM181350-5X50MeterReducedCropped23June12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/Anschutz/AnschutzM541965.jpg


A factory Anschutz will hold the ten ring all day, it is the ammunition that varies the most. I talked to the 2010 Iron Sight Prone Small bore National Champion, with the rifle’s favorite ammunition, (Eley red box) his rifle would group consistent 10 shot groups of 0.38” at 100 yards. That is just phenomenal accuracy. His rifle was a M52 action with a benchmark barrel and a Bernoski stock.

This is a factory Anschutz 50 meter target for a target rifle built around the M64 action.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/DSCF3471AnschutzfactoryTarget.jpg

sholling
July 7, 2012, 12:28 PM
This is the prettist five shot 50 yard group I have shot in competition. I shot this with my Anschutz, prone with scope, at 50 yards.

I love my Annie but just to show what a tricked out 10/22 can do this was 10rds at 50m. The rifle is capable of better but the shooter (me) still needs more work. Not as pretty as your group but not bad for 10/22. ;)

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/22s%20-%20640dpi/IMG_0145a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/IMG_0198-1.jpghttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/IMG_0199-1.jpg

Bart B.
July 7, 2012, 03:17 PM
Here's A 400-40X score shot with my Anchutz 1911 with it's almost worn out factory barrel with over 33,000 rounds through it. 50 yards, prone with scope. Old Eley Tenex ammo made in 1982 fired in 2006.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6881231583_17529f6bab_z.jpg

The inner X ring is .39 inch, 10 ring is .89 inch.

That wide shot at 2:45 o'clock on target 7 was plugged and viewed by 3 folks in the stat office. It just barely touched the X ring. 'Twas called a deep X at 3 but the wind gusted a bit as I fired. The range gods were nice that day and didn't cause but only one problem. My 3rd shot in the shoot off to set the record after firing this perfect-possible score was called at about the same but the wind gusted more as it was fired and pushed it way out in the 10 ring. The NRA 400-40X +5X senior record was no longer possible to break.

mehavey
July 7, 2012, 04:22 PM
If you ever run across a French MAS 45 trainer in a used gunrack, get it and keep it for yourself, your children and your grandchildren.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/military%20trainers/mas22b.jpg

Picher
July 7, 2012, 05:07 PM
Bart, that target is wonderful!!! Congrats!

Best I've done in competition is a three-target IR 50-50 Unlimited 749x750, shot last year. Last shot was a 9, by less than 1/16".

I also did 10 consecutive 5-shot groups on a Prove-It target that averaged .37" at 50 yards...with a home-tuned 10-22.

JP

a7mmnut
July 7, 2012, 05:26 PM
Anything smaller than a squirrel's noggin' was considered trophy class in my day.

-7-

Bart B.
July 7, 2012, 05:27 PM
Here's the original German Mauser DSM-34 predecessor to the French MAS 45.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Mauser_training_rifle.htm

At the end of the War in 1945, the French Government took over the Mauser factories and these training rifles were still in production for a short while. Before long, all the tooling was removed to France along with all the factory stocked parts as yet unassembled. The rifles were built up in France in the MAS factory, and bore the MAS name thereafter.

johnwilliamson062
July 8, 2012, 04:54 PM
981TS with a williams rear sight is working wonders for me. No gunsmithing for the install and the pair together cost a lot less than many other sights.

Danny Creasy
July 11, 2012, 10:31 PM
I was just wondering which brand of rifle would have the best iron sights that are factory mounted which are in sync with the gun's accuracy.

The CZ 452 Models with the hogsback stocks and open sights are the best factory setup for open sight shooting of all time. Just check out these results for the the CMP National Sporter Match in 2011:

http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=7138&eventID=1&awardID=1

The open sighted CZs dominate the O Class of this sport year after year.

We have a local benchrest match here in Sheffield, Alabama. The USBR target (aka The Green Monster) is designed to be shot at 50 yards with scoped rimfires. I started an open sight version of the match a few years ago in which we engage the same challenging BR target at 50 feet with open sighted .22 sporter weight rifles. Here is one of my better targets and the set up I use in this match (CZ 452 UltraLux):

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/sheffieldshootr/DSC04289.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/sheffieldshootr/DSC04287.jpg

WildBill45
July 13, 2012, 06:34 PM
Anschutz

http://www.anschuetz-sport.com/

wyop
July 15, 2012, 04:35 PM
At a reasonable price, it is difficult to beat the CZ bolt action .22's for accuracy.

If price is no object, then you could look at the top-end Anschuetz, or older Winchester 52's (which are bid up in part by Winchester collectors), Remington 513's, 37's, 40X, Kimber 82's, etc. But as Bart indicates, there's some deals out there in older Annie's. They shoot very, very well. In general, there are two "families" of Anschuetz .22's - ones derived from the 54 action and ones derived from the 64 action. The 64 family rifles tend to be a bit cheaper, but are still quite accurate.

Consider too that the "second tier" US gun makers made target rifles. There are some Marlin target .22's that were put out several years ago (the "2000" rifles), along with some older Model 35's. Mossberg made a couple target rifles (one that comes to mind was a '144' with Lyman peep sights).

I own both an Anschuetz 1807 and a Win52B target .22. Both shoot so accurately that at 50 yards, if I miss the 10 ring when using Ely-primed match ammunition, I know it was *my* fault, not the gun or ammo's fault. Maybe, just maybe, sometimes I can blame the wind. Maybe if the listener is really gullible I can get away with it. Both of my target rifles have globe front sights and aperture rear sights, triggers down under 1LB, etc.

Open sights are not particularly good sights for accuracy work. At the very least, I'd have any serious .22 equipped with military-style peep sights. Globe sights are great for shooting round bulls on paper, but maybe not so useful for squirrels and such.

The ammunition fed to a .22 is the second place I start helping people improve their results on most any .22. The hyper-sonic, hunting and bulk ammunition types are all terribly inaccurate. The hyper-sonic stuff has never, ever been able to group inside of 3 or 4" at 100 yards for me, regardless of the rifle.

Next thing that matters is the consistency of rim thickness. In years past, people who wanted to improve the accuracy of their .22's with bulk ammo would sort their ammo by rim thickness, then they'd find which thickness closed up their groups and shoot only that thickness of rim, trading off all the other ammo from bulk lots with other people. Today's match .22LR ammo is quite consistent and this tip only works yet with the bulk ammunition types. There's many different grades of .22LR ammo, and the best advice I can give you here is when you have what you believe to be a good .22 rifle, start shooting consistently at 50 yards onto paper, and try one ammo after another, keeping good records. There's dozens of ammos to try. In the Ruger 10/22's I own, I found CCI Green Tag improved results markedly. Your Rugers, being of a different vintage than mine, might not agree with mine.

Last, I'd be looking at your barrel's crown and then chamber. I've seen some .22's with crowns damaged from cleaning. When it comes to .22's, less cleaning is better. You see these guys sawing a bronze cleaning brush through a .22 as tho they were cleaning a stovepipe or something - and that's not helping the barrel.

You can literally pour money into a 10/22 like water down a gopher hole, and for the price of a new CZ, you might be able to make it shoot as well as a CZ. Might. Or you could just say to yourself "I'm going to become a more serious shootist," sell your 10/22 and move up to a more serious .22.

For plinking, 10/22's are a lot of fun.

But when you want to knuckle down and make groups... they're simply not the .22 rifle to own. I honestly cannot remember the last time I had my 10/22's out of the safe. They used to be used as squirrel rifles, then I bought a Savage .17 HMR. Between the Annie and Winnie target rifles and the Savage squirrel gun... the 10/22's (scopes and all) just sit there, unloved, unused, forgotten safe queens. Col. Whelen was right - only accurate rifles are interesting.

joshobrien77
July 15, 2012, 04:48 PM
In the realm of mid to high end guns this comment won't get much positive feedback. I purchased a synthetic stock single shot cricket from keystone arms for my son. Yesterday at the range he wanted to have a competition. We used his youth gun and without trouble on the factory peep site and with bulk ammo hit 3 in walking targets at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yds. Up to 75 it was cake. At 100 you had to figure out the hold but no biggie. If an out of the box adult gun can't hit solid at 50 yes and a 99$ kid gun can that's a problem IMO.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

wyop
July 15, 2012, 07:06 PM
Your result vs. observed results from a 10/22 don't surprise me in the slightest.

The Cricket is single shot. Probably has a pretty snug chamber, since it doesn't need to worry about feeding from a magazine reliably. It's a bolt action. Two big thumbs up right there.

Then you say it has peep sights. Third big thumb up. I'd expect that rifle, with standard velocity .22LR ammo, to perform pretty well. Maybe not as well as a .22 target rifle, but better than a 10/22. Matter of fact, I'd bet on it. I'd bet that a factory-new Cricket single-shot with peep sights will outshoot most all unmodified factory-new 10/22's.

The 10/22 is a very, very popular .22 rifle, with over 5 million units sold since inception. It is not, in my direct observation of dozens of the type, a very accurate rifle. The factory open sights suck rocks off the ground. Even with a good scope, I've never seen one hold less than about 1"+ at 50 yards with quality ammo.

Ruger has sold a few boatloads of them because they're inexpensive, the rotary magazine is more reliable than the older tube-feed magazines on .22 semi-autos and holds more rounds than many other cilp-style magazines on .22's (many of which are 5 rounds). The accuracy is OK, but not outstanding.

Want to see what was a "cheap" semi-auto .22 shoot well? Go find a Mossberg 152, with peep sights. It shoots like a house of fire - much, much better than you'd expect from the two examples I've seen. I see them used from $100 up to about $150. Nothing overly impressive to look at. But... Mossberg lead-lapped these barrels. Their trigger groups usually need to be cleaned up, but the barrels - oh, my do they shoot. Mossberg made bolt variants with the same barrels, the 142. I think if a guy wants to collect accurate, useful, adult-sized .22 rifles, the Mossbergs from the late 20's through the late 40's are a good place to start.

chadio
July 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
I love my Annie but just to show what a tricked out 10/22 can do this was 10rds at 50m. The rifle is capable of better but the shooter (me) still needs more work. Not as pretty as your group but not bad for 10/22.

Nice rifle, nice shooting .... but... are there any original 10/22 parts left on that rifle?

Sir Loads-A-Lot
July 16, 2012, 12:53 PM
Quote:
This is the prettist five shot 50 yard group I have shot in competition. I shot this with my Anschutz, prone with scope, at 50 yards.
I love my Annie but just to show what a tricked out 10/22 can do this was 10rds at 50m. The rifle is capable of better but the shooter (me) still needs more work. Not as pretty as your group but not bad for 10/22.


What muzzle brake is on your 10-22?

sholling
July 16, 2012, 09:40 PM
What muzzle brake is on your 10-22?
It's part of the Volquartsen THM barrel. At that time it only came on the 18" carbon fiber sleeved version but they come with other styles now.