Squib load-Need opinions on what went wrong

[Poodleshooter]

Just had a squib down at the range with my .357. Load was as follows: Speer cases, Winchester small pistol primers, generic copper plated 158gr. flat nose bullet, over 15grains of WW296. Bullet was seated to the top of it's cannelure with a normal crimp. Weapon was a SS 4" barreled Ruger GP100. After a few cylinders of ammo, I was pretty happy with this load. At 25', 4 out of 6 rounds of my last cylinder full were touching. On the next cylinder, I had trouble ejecting due to a small amount of grit that had wedged itself between the chamber walls and the cases on 2 of the fired rounds. Fouling was a golden gray with a consistency similar to sand. As the ammo had fired without a hitch, I didn't give it a second thought (mistake). On the next cylinder, after 3 rounds there was a lack of recoil and obvious squib. Opening the cylinder was somewhat difficult as was ejection. The throat and one chamber were filled with what I soon found out was lumpy chunks of golden colored WW296 that was almost "shellacked" together (for lack of a better word.) The bullet was lodged in the barrel about 1" in-primer appeared to have lodged it in. I've removed it since and found no damage to the weapon. Now here's my question-what caused the bad burn, and why was the powder lumped together and golden colored as opposed to the normal gray, loose,unburnt flakes left when there isn't enough crimp to get get a complete burn? (I've seen that before while experimenting with crimps). Best I can figure here are my options:
1. Should I have used a magnum small pistol primer?
If so, why have I not had problems with this before?
2. Could this have been the result of chemical or water contamination?? I have no other explanation for the golden color of the powder chunks

Am I missing anything here guys? Anyone ever seen the powder turn this weird dull golden color or "shellac" itself together before?
Thanks for your help in advance.

[RiverRider]

Poodleshooter, I've never seen this happen before, but I HAVE heard of powder being negatively affected by having been left in the plastic hopper of a powder measure. And yes, in that instance, the result was a bunch of squib loads.

Could this be what happened to you?

[char923]

Most reloading manual note the use of magnum primers with powder like ww296, 2400, H110, HS6, HS7

[Nukem]

Sounds moisture related to me, from your description.
FWIW

[Mike Irwin]

Poodle,

Could have been a couple of things...

Did you tumble your brass? Could have been a chunk of corncob or walnut media stuck in the flash hole, which stopped the flame enough that the powder didn't fire.

Also could have been oil contamination of the case, which in turn contaminated the powder.

As for the color of the golden color of the powder, believe it or not, that is its NATURAL color. The gray coating is a combination of graphite and burn deterrents that are tumble coated onto the powder in the last of the production steps. The graphite helps reduce static electricity and also adds a self-lubricating quality to the powder as it goes through packaging equipment.

The primer flash on a squib load will often burn this coating away, but fail to ignite the powder completely.

The reason it was lumped together is that the primer flash (there was also likely SOME powder burn) was hot enough that the powder actually started the melt, and thus clumped.

I've seen this happen with large-bore magnum rifle rounds and very slow powders, but have never seen this happen with a revolver round unless there is some sort of contaminant in the case.

[Gewehr98]

Friend of mine had a Remington Rolling Block in .45-70, and with a light load of IMR4198, he got a weak pop, opening and extracting the round gave that honey-brown slug of compressed powder with some loose grains lying in the chamber, with the cast bullet just lightly forced into the rifling. It was the only round out of a box of 50 he had loaded that did that. Weird.

I have had some of my own 8x57 Mauser handloads, using H380, leave a bunch of those golden unburned granules all the way down the barrel, but I've never had any pistol or revolver rounds do that yet. Definitely reinforces the safety measure of waiting a good count before opening up the action, though. Could you imagine the hangfire that could result?

[Poodleshooter]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.
RiverRider: Interesting theory. This powder was sent through a Lee Perfect Powder measure. It was loaded last May, but my load date shows that it was made 1 day after another similar batch of .357 was made using WW296. Hopefully one day of sitting around didn't cause any contamination, but I have since adopted the practice of never allowing powder to sit overnight in the hopper.
Char923: I definitely failed to follow the load data on that end-I'll be picking up some Win SPM primers soon-they can't hurt for these ball powders!
Mike and nukem: I didn't tumble these, they were either vinegar soaked or not cleaned at all. If the vinegar/salt solution and he subsequent rinsing were responsible, I would think that the primer, not the powder would be contaminated. I don't think oil could be at fault-these never touched a gun or were near oil till they were loaded. Even then, my revolver wasn't very oily. Best I can figure, the powder may have been moistened somehow-possibly it was left in my truck then brought inside. I'm planning to remedy this by obtaining some primer sealant and picking up some magnum primers. I've been pretty lax about this before, as Blue Dot was my primary .357 powder, but I think my current use of ball powders definitely warrants a change (not to mention better following of load data).

[Bud Helms]

Poodleshooter,

It sounds like what you may have had is a loose crimp. If the next round to be fired has had the bullet shaken loose, it may not have been able to build pressure properly and subsequently gave a partial burn. That would also explain all the powder, partially burned, all over the place. Gunslinger had this happen recently.

One way to find out is to take a few rounds back to the range and check the cylinder after each shot to see if the bullets in the unfired rounds are backing out.

Winchester recommends a "... very heavy crimp (high bullet pull)". They also warn that LESS THAN 90% LOADING DENSITY may result in squib loads. I don't use it.

What Mike said about the powder is true. Also agree mag primers are in order.

[Edited by sensop on 12-14-2000 at 12:53 AM]

[Mal H]

Ah yes - the old W296 squib load formula!

Seriously, when I read the thread title and before opening it, I said to myself W296 (or H110 - same powder). Those powders are somewhat notorious for squib loads and don't have a very wide margin for error in loading like most other powders. I had my one and only squib load with almost the exact same conditions that you had - 158 gr lead bullet, standard primer and less than a full load of H110. And oddly enough, it was with the exact same gun model - KGP-141. The others have pointed out all the problems that should eliminate the squib load: use magnum primers with W296 and H110, good solid crimp, full load of powder. However, you may have given another clue when you said you used a 158 gr. copper plated bullet. If you use copper plated and not copper jacketed bullets, the pressure may not build up to the level required for full ignition and blast-off. You'll notice that most all load manuals do not list W296 and H110 for use with anything but jacketed bullets.

[Hal]

:)
I was thinking about this thread when I emptied my plastic powder measure,,,,,,,,into the plastic Unique container. :)

(I know, there's a bazillion different plastics since I always seem to have a hundred or so of them glued into the inards of my tackle box)

I imagine powder left in a loose fitting measure is more apt to pick up moisture from the air, or be mistaken for a different type, both of which are bad things. I just got a bit of amusement over the whole thing of the plastic measure and the plastic container.

When I first read the thread, my first thought was magnum primers usually give the hot flash that some powders need. Back when I first started reloading, I used a lot of Red Dot for the .357mag. If I didn't use magnum primers, I got a lot of grunge with it.

[Nukem]

I'm almost sure it was moisture after what you said about soaking your brass to clean it.
I ran into the same thing when I used to shoot skeet in the winter with an 1100. The hulls would end up with a little snow in them and I'd get a squib now and then even after letting them dry for 4-5 days between reloadings.
Take your brass and spread it out by a register, and let it dry for a longer time if you want to use a wet method to clean your brass.

Good luck

[RiverRider]

RAE, the experience I referred to was that of none other than Skeeter Skelton himself. It happened to him, and he figured that the powder, or maybe some remnant of the solvents used in its manufacture, reacted chemically with the plastic hopper of his measure. I think he had left the hopper full for several days.

I can only guess, but it seems that manufacturers have changed the hoppers on their measures to be non-reactive, but that would be an ASSUMPTION. All I know is I never leave powder in a measure, even just overnight.

[Hal]

RiverRider,
No offence was meant, hence the smiley faces. Sorry if it read any other way. I've seen lots of cases where plastics fight each other, such as the tackle box mess where a plastic grub becomes part of the plastic tray. Since most common hard plastics are very heavy in petro based solvents, and some of the nastier aromatics like Tolulene and Xylene are used in the process, the theory has enough validity to merit consideration..Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding. I did find a certain irony to switching from one plastic container to another plastic container. However, I certain Alliant has tested the container and determined it safe for long term storage. The powder measure, in my case a Lee, may be safe for only incidental exposure.

[Southla1]

"I HAVE heard of powder being negatively affected by having been left in the plastic hopper of a powder measure"

I had the same problems years ago with either Bullseye or Unique (I can't remember which it was). I left some in the plastic hopper of my RCBS uniflow measure for a few days and its like the grains glued themselves to the side of the plastic hopper. The only powder that did that was double base powder. IMR or Hodgdon "stick powders" had no effect on the palstic. I attributed it to the fact that the powders that did affect the plastic were doublebase powders. I thought that maybe the nitro added to the powder was the cause of it.
Later I broke the bottom of the hopper by dropping something on it. I got it to fit (kinda) and used it like that. A few days ago I went to the RCBS website and e-mailed them to ask how to purchase another hopper. Within 10 minutes I had a return E-mail asking what color was the plastic in the hopper. I replied that it was clear (or was :)). they again within 10 minutes replied that even though the clear hopper was no longer manufactured that they were going to machine a green one to fit my measure and mail it to me at no cost! This even after I told them that I bought this measure in 1965! When RCBS says lifetime thats exactly what they mean! I have always bought "green". I will continue to do this for certain now!

[RiverRider]

RAE, no offense taken, whatsoever! But I certainly do appreciate your courtesy. I know exactly what you mean about the tackleboxes, though...mine has some plastic worms permanently integrated into its shelves. And also some other stuff I do not recognize. :)

The story I draw this knowledge from was called "Skeeter's Cowkiller Loads", and I recommend it (and ALL of Skeeter's work) to everyone with an interest in firearms. I read it in "Good Friends, Good Guns, Good Whiskey," a collection of some of Skeeter's work.

They broke the mold after Skeeter was made.

[Chad Young]

Just checked the Winchester reloading manual and they had two VERY dire warnings about W296 - 1) use magnum primers only and 2) use a very tight crimp. I use small pistol on my W231 loads and SMP on my W296 loads.

[Southla1]

"They broke the mold after Skeeter was made"

AMEN! He was one of the best! Right up there with Elmer, and a few others.

[Poodleshooter]

You've all brought up some very good points. I'll recheck my crimp when I get out of work tonight. I usually use about 1/3 of a turn in with my Lee speed die-sometimes up to 1/2 turn in. I may need to tighten the crimp even further to 1/2 turn when loading this recipe. I think the plating on these is pretty good-I've sectioned them, and though they are softer than a copper jacket they're still pretty hard. The load density issue brings up one point. While looking through the manuals, most manuals recommend a max charge near 17.5 grains, so i was probably a little light on the powder. I'm sure that didn't help. However, the reason I did this was due to the Nosler manual listing 14.8grains as a max load!! I believe that the primers used in most of the manuals were the same (Winchester). I don't know about y'all but I've become rather frustrated by the wide discrepancy of "max loads" given from company to company and even manual to manual!!! I saw a 15-16% difference between the max loads. It's not like these .357 commercial cases are THAT different from brand to brand-it's not .223 vs. 5.56 military cases! Primers and bullet shape will make some difference in pressure, but I don't think it should warrant a 15%+ difference in charge weights. That's just not acceptable when powders like H110 and Win296 ask for no more than a 3-5% decrease from the max load. Ahhh well, back to the crimping die to grumble some more....

[Southla1]

RE: my last post in this thread about the plastic hopper on my RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure. It was late in the day last Thrusday that I e-mailed Mr. Jay Postman of RCBS about the plastic hopper for the Uniflow measure. I had to return e-mail him later in the day about the type of hopper that I had that was broken/cracked/dry rotted. Monday the new hopper cut to the right size was IN MY MAIL BOX!!! This is service with a capital S!

[Edited by Southla1 on 12-12-2000 at 04:16 PM]

[jtduncan]

Great post Irwin! Think he nailed it. May have been an undercharge, the rinsing may not have dried the case thoroughly or some caking, or debris in the flash hole.

As to the crimp, I use 3/4 turn to crimp on all my pistol bullets.

Finally, I talk to the tech reps at Hodgdons and Lyman (Measure # 55) and both of them stating that an overnight stay in the powder measure SHOULD not affect the powder as long as the humidity and the temperature is low to moderate.

BTW - I know several old-timers who basically store their powder in their measures. They only use W231 now.

[Big Bunny]

Poodle-Shooter...I Feel contamination could be to blame...BUT... IMHO you are also maybe using the wrong powder for light loads.
Maybe try a shotgun powder like 700X, Mulwex AS30 or 'Green Dot' and your problems will be over and a dim memory - unless of course you have 100KG of the Winchester stuff!!:)and want to persist with a proven dangerous load.

In rapid-fire you would have a barrel-bulge at best.

A new gun is less expensive than the right powder I feel.

BB

[Vek]

Criiiimp *grunt* Haaaarder *grunt grunt*

I'm but a beginner, but I've put quite a bit of 296 thru my Security six and SBH. Behind many a hardcast in the SBH. A friend told me to use an ungodly hard crimp with H-110 / ww296 (literally the same stuff). Never had a problem. Eyeball everything that gets spat out of your press. Use brass of uniform length, and check that crimp!

[Poodleshooter]

Jtduncan: 3/4 turn for crimp? Jeez, sounds like that would pinch the bullet in two!! :D
BigBunny: Actually I wasn't trying for a light load, but a good magnum one. I kept the powder charge low (15grains) to check for pressure on this batch. I got bored using Bullseye so i stepped up to magnum ball powders. Besides, the Green Dot is for my shotgun!
Vek: I have to eyeball everything-I only use a single stage press! :)
On an update note, lasst night I tried some 16grain loads that were processed,crimped and washed identically to the first batch (which only had the one squib). There was less residue in the cases and barrel(but still too much), but they shot a bit cleaner. My diagnosis? Add more crimp, keep the powder charge near the max and USE MAGNUM PRIMERS NEXT TIME.