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grubbylabs
June 29, 2012, 03:11 PM
Here is my new buddy Ike. He is a Deutsch Drahthaar the parent breed to the German Wire hair. So far he has been a great puppy and a fast learner. I feel a little out of my element though because the training for these guys are just a little different. A dog who meets breed standards and is cleared for breeding can work water foul, track, and point. No short order for any dog, but with his breeding he should be able to do his part if I do mine.

markj
June 29, 2012, 04:49 PM
Nice pup. I just got another out of a great dual champ it is a gsp tho. Good hunting.

Hunter Customs
June 29, 2012, 05:22 PM
Good looking pup.
I can visualize a lot of good days afield for both you and the pup.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

Edward429451
June 29, 2012, 10:49 PM
Wow he's a little guy. Good looking dog. I never heard of that breed.

grubbylabs
June 30, 2012, 08:27 AM
You could say his breed is the parent breed to the German Wire haired pointer. In fact if I really wanted to it would take little effort to register him with the AKC as one. But there is a reason I went with the German registry.

The AKC version is nothing more than a pointer while what I bought will have the ability to not only point but to also be a strong retriever, fur tracker, blood tracker. As the Germans put is a truly versatile hunting companion.

buck460XVR
June 30, 2012, 10:38 AM
You could say his breed is the parent breed to the German Wire haired pointer.


Actually, GWPs and Deutsch Drahthaars are the same exact dog. Deutsch is deutsch for German and Drahthaar is deutsch for Wirehair. I've had both over the years and believe me, the only difference is the name on the registry. Actually FDSB registers all Wirehairs as Drahthhaars. A GWP is a versatile gun dog no different than his German bred counterpart. Some hard core bird doggers claim that getting pure German stock means better lineage and traits. They also say that for Irish Setters and English Springers. As I said before, I have had a coupla GWPs that could not be registered AKC because at the time the rules said they had to be at least third generation in this country and they were only first. Those rules as you have found out have been changed. But again as you have found out, they will be registered as GWPs.......the reason, same breed.

That said, you have a fine lookin' pup there. If you are used to labs you will be surprised as to how much younger they mature mentally as opposed to Labs.( I have had Labs also). They are eager to learn and eager to please. The other thing that is different than most labs(other the the pointing thingy) is their desire to trail/chase deer. Again, this is a trait they have been bred for and in most cases have to be broke and be taught that deer are trash game.

grubbylabs
June 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
While it is obvious that we are going to disagree on some points here, the big difference in the dogs is the breeding. AKC has no minimum standards while the German registry sets some high standards to make sure the dogs are what they are meant to be. While I am quite sure that there are some very good AKC wire hair dogs out there and a few bad DDs, I think that you will find far more AKC dogs that have nothing more in common with the breed standards than a vague resemblance.

markj
July 2, 2012, 04:55 PM
the big difference in the dogs is the breeding

German testing system is different than AKC. Having wife that is German, we can go pick what we want. I have had German bred shorthairs, were not that much different than American bred as far as training and natural instincts go. Big split here in the US where it used to be everyone got along. Does the dog know? lol mine just hunt, everything. Puppies are great, get to teach em right. Happy hunting to ya.

buck460XVR
July 8, 2012, 02:22 PM
While it is obvious that we are going to disagree on some points here, the big difference in the dogs is the breeding. AKC has no minimum standards while the German registry sets some high standards to make sure the dogs are what they are meant to be. While I am quite sure that there are some very good AKC wire hair dogs out there and a few bad DDs, I think that you will find far more AKC dogs that have nothing more in common with the breed standards than a vague resemblance.


As I said in another dog thread here, indiscriminate breeding has ruined more than one breed, and it is not just here in the U.S. AKC breeding is done more for physical appearance and a more docile temperament, which is why many times the hunting instincts have been bred out of the hunting breeds. But there are many dog breeders here in the U.S. that are as discriminate in their choices of Studs and Dams as their Continental counterparts. They too breed for instincts and temperaments for hunting. I was not saying your dog was not bred to a higher standard than most U.S. bred dogs, I was just saying that DNA wise, it is the same breed. Only difference is the name. Just as Setters in Germany are referred to as "Vorstehhunds". Same dog, just different name. As markj said, all the breeding in the world does not a difference make if the dog is not trained correctly and allowed to hunt in the manner it was bred for. Some of the things your Drahthaar was bred to do will frustrate you...believe me. The first time it takes off after a cold deer trail and is gone for a half hour while you and your bird hunting buddies wait for it to come back will not only frustrate you, but embarrass you. But this is what the breed is bred for in Germany. If your dog has truly been bred to be versatile, this is what you need to expect. The dog will have to be trained against it's breeding not to do this. Same goes for anything else that walks in the woods. If this is your first Wirehair, and he is as good as you believe, odds are he will teach you more than you will ever teach him. This is not a cut to you, but a compliment to your dog.

Here's my female "Wilbur" as a pup, eight months ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/buckanddot/bucks/321277_289269777752541_1525395730_n.jpg

And just this week while on vacation up north in the UP.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/buckanddot/bucks/457124_464089786937205_784730252_o.jpg

Hansam
July 8, 2012, 03:27 PM
A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet...

This is quite true of dogs too. What matters is bloodlines, pedigree and breeding practices. The German Wirehair here in America and the Duetch Draathaar (spelling?) in Germany are the same breed and the same dog. If you compare DNA of the two it will be confirmed. The difference, as has been stated, is simply the breeding and the goals of the breeding. Here in America (and in some other countries) sporting dogs, herding dogs and working dogs have developed into two separate lines: the field line and the bench line.

The field lines are bred in an effort to maintain hunting, tracking and working instincts (ie. the reason why the breed was created in the first place). In these lines working dogs tend to be more oriented toward what work they were trained for. They may not be so friendly toward strangers, may even be generally distrusting of strangers and may not be very good with other dogs that they don't recognize as belonging to their group/territory. Sporting dogs are more keyed to the retrieving, tracking and hunting aspect and again may not be so oriented toward other things that the bench crowd wants. Typically these dogs' appearances are exactly the same as the bench line dogs nor are their temperaments and physical capabilities and instinctive abilities the same.

Bench lines are bred to conform to someone's ideals of what the breed should look like (which more often than not has diverged from what the breed originally looked like). In fact many breeds of dogs that have been bred primarily for conformity shows have diverged greatly from their original looks... because their breeding criteria had changed. Mastiffs in Roman times didn't have a ton of excess hair and were not such lean dogs - being more muscular and massive with tighter coats and possessing more stamina than the current incarnation of the mastiff. However someone decided they wanted a more docile and less active big dog and that's what they did through selective breeding. Voila the modern mastiff is born. One mastiff that hasn't undergone that transformation yet is the Tibetan Mastiff but then they're not very popular in modern dog owner circles because they're not "gentle giants" like everyone wants a mastiff to be. Remember though that at one time a mastiff was a big, muscular, drooling and vicious dog that was to its masters and people but wouldn't think twice about laying into a stranger unless their master called them off. Now most mastiffs would suffocate you to death with their drooling licks than bite if you were to walk onto their territory. Talk about a 180 degree turn!

Of course I could talk on and on about differences between bench line and field line sporting dogs but I won't. What I will say is that if your dog is truly bred for what you say its bred for then you've invested in good stock but if memory serves me right the AKC won't allow full registration of your dog anyway because it was from Germany. Maybe the rules have changed but the best you could get is ILP registration which only allows it to participate in competitions etc. but does not grant you registration rights to any of its progeny.

Anyway have fun with your puppy and good luck with your breeding. If your puppy is as good as you say he is you'll need to be very selective about which dog you decide to have him mate with for puppies... you don't want to water down such a great bloodline with bench bred blood. That's the dilemma I'm going to be dealing with eventually too.

Saltydog235
July 9, 2012, 01:29 PM
The AKC version is nothing more than a pointer while what I bought will have the ability to not only point but to also be a strong retriever, fur tracker, blood tracker. As the Germans put is a truly versatile hunting companion.

Guess I should have told the last 3 or 4 GSP's I've had that they needed pure blood from the Reich in order to do all the things they did/do.

scotts_4x
July 10, 2012, 09:13 PM
Can someone pls send my wrecklessly American bred gsp a memo that he's not supposed to chase anything but birds in the field, please!. That dog chases after anything with a scent! Part of the breed, not the land its bred on in my experience.

-scott

grubbylabs
July 11, 2012, 02:52 PM
Yes genetically they are the same but any one who deals with working sport dogs knows that pedigree makes a lot of difference in dogs. Are there some GSP's that still retain the natural ability and drive that they were breed for, I am sure of it. However the odds of getting a dog from the average AKC litter that will perform as well as a dog from an average DD litter is much less. It is a simple matter of breeding standards and controls. It is very well proven that breeding practices and pedigree make a huge difference in the quality of animal produced.

markj
July 12, 2012, 04:45 PM
Are there some GSP's that still retain the natural ability and drive that they were breed for,

Well all 6 of mine do :) they will flat out hunt anything, varmints last like a minute then a fast death by shorthair.

German breeders are not using "lines" now as all the dogs there are related :) now they pick the best performing dog and go with it. German hunting isnt the same either, be glad you live here in Germany it is a long proccess just to be able to carry and use a gun. No public land, farmers will complain to the gun club, a permit is gotten and the jagers do the hunt. Mostly large hares and pigs.

Please do not fall into the my DD is better than yer wirehair, many do this.

Enjoy the pup.

Saltydog235
July 13, 2012, 07:01 AM
Yes genetically they are the same but any one who deals with working sport dogs knows that pedigree makes a lot of difference in dogs. Are there some GSP's that still retain the natural ability and drive that they were breed for, I am sure of it. However the odds of getting a dog from the average AKC litter that will perform as well as a dog from an average DD litter is much less. It is a simple matter of breeding standards and controls. It is very well proven that breeding practices and pedigree make a huge difference in the quality of animal produced.

I had a little 45lb runt of the litter liver and white male that lived to the ripe old age of 15 and would have disproved you every single day of his life. He had a few champs in his bloodline and some good solid AKC hunting stock as well. He lived for the hunt, could tell the difference betweena rifle and a shotgun and the over under from the autoloader. He'd hunt birds, retrieve doves, track deer, find lost cats, protect his house, and everything else you could want. Many of his offspring have been doing the same for years now. The country of origin has little to nothing to do with a dogs abilities, like people those are individual traits. Sorry fellow, I'm not buying the Nazi Canine rap.

buck460XVR
July 13, 2012, 11:54 AM
Are there some GSP's that still retain the natural ability and drive that they were breed for, I am sure of it.

Probably more so than you think. If you know the history of your dog, you know that his "parent breed"(as you call it) was the GSP. Again, while there are lines of GSPs out there ruined by indiscriminate breeding, there are many more GSPs and GWPs out there that have been ruined as hunting dogs because of poor training and inadequate owners, who would rather blame the breed/breeder instead of themselves.

The AKC version is nothing more than a pointer while what I bought will have the ability to not only point but to also be a strong retriever, fur tracker, blood tracker. As the Germans put is a truly versatile hunting companion.

Don't know where the 'ell you got this line of Bullpucky from. I know your research before buying your pup and the few weeks that you have had him makes you an expert on GWPs, but I believe my 40 years of owning GWPs gives me a little insight on them and their traits also. My first was a pup direct from Germany also. He was won @ a Ducks Unlimited auction in the early seventies by a friend of mine because nobody else there even knew the breed existed. He knew I was looking for one and took the chance I would want it. It was the best $275(lotta monies for a pup back then) I ever spent. My next two were first generation American born pups from parents brought directly from Germany. My last four have been from reputable breeders here in the states. I have also had stud dogs that were used in some highly respected kennels in the country and participated in NAVHDA Testing early in life when I had more time and monies for dogs. ALL the dogs I had/have possess/possessed the same strong drive and instinctive traits that makes this breed so versatile and desirable. To me there was no distinctive difference between the dogs other than the birthplace or sire/dam on the registration papers. It is true that some American breeders focus on more of the pointing and upland game traits. This includes breeding for a slicker/shorter coat. German bred dogs generally have a thicker/denser coat for harsher weather and more floatation while water retrieving. GWPs with a standard coat are not a warm weather dog. One reason you see very few of them in southern states. As I said before, if you have never owned a GWP or other Continental Pointer before, you will learn more from the dog than you will ever teach him. You will also see that being a versatile dog, means that GWPs must be broke or intensively trained against following their trailing instincts when their primary purpose is just pointing and retrieving. Most of my dogs were trained to only trail when on a leash. This was only for finding wounded deer when bloodtrails were thin. Several took a long time to be broke of wanting to follow a deer when jumped or chanced upon while hunting upland game birds. They also needed to learn that squirrels and rabbits were trash game. Again, this was against their breeding. But GWPs are fast learners. They also mature at a earlier age than many other breeds. They demand firm discipline and an active lifestyle. My present GWP is almost a year old and needs a hour or more of vigorous(not just walking) activity a day or she will drive you nuts. Give that to her and she is a sweetheart.

It is very well proven that breeding practices and pedigree make a huge difference in the quality of animal produced.
While I agree about breeding practices and sticking to reputable breeders that breed selectively, Pedigree means little unless you are gonna become a breeder yourself. All of my pups, after the first one, were bought only after I had had the chance to view both parents and see their temperament and disposition. Coupla of them were bought because I had hunted with one and/or both of their parents. To me this meant more than pedigree. Championships and titles are an expensive and time consuming achievement. The average dog owner does not have the time or the monies to involve themselves in it. Having a Title or Championship means a dog is good, but it does not mean they are any better at hunting than any of their litter-mates without titles. It just means their owner has the time, monies and desire to pursue those titles. Since Championships and Titles on papers generally bring more monies for pups, these things are important to breeders as it increases the demand and the prices for their pups. For the average hunter, paying for titles and pedigree is moot. Kinda like paying more for a GM product with GMC on the hood instead of Chevy.

Grubbylabs, you have made a substantial investment in a dog with a ton of potential. I wish you many years of great hunting with a loyal companion. But he will only give you back what you put into him, regardless of breeding and bloodlines. But don't for a minute think that his bloodlines automatically makes him superior to other GWPs. I know of many owners with American born dogs that would love to take your challenge.

grubbylabs
July 13, 2012, 01:32 PM
Some of you are not getting what I am saying, I do not think that the country the dog comes from makes a difference. you would probably have to go back several generations on mine to find his Direct German ancestors.

What makes a dog great is natural ability, time, and training. Most experienced bird dog hunters, trainers, and what not, rely on pedigree and quality breeding practices to produce quality pups or to find quality pups. IN MY OPINION I believe that what makes the DD breeding practices superior is the strict quality controls that they place on their breeders. This ensures that the majority of pups will at least meat minimum standards as far as hunting, conformation, and temperament go.

This is my problem with AKC. They have no breed standards other than a registration. If the dog is registered it can breed. In doing my research for my next dog I found that there was only one kennel within driving distance of me that did any health clearances and they did not hunt test. 99% of the pups that I found for sale were from back yard breeders. The rest either did not hunt test their dogs or they did not get health clearances for them and claimed that health issues were not a big problem for GSP's or GWP's. From talking to a couple different vets that is bogus. While they might not have hip or other health problems quite as bad as say labs, they still need to be cleared before breeding.

I put a lot of time and effort into producing a quality lab that I can honestly tell you will hunt and make a great family pet. I expect no less from any other breeder of a pup I am going to buy. The only breeders that I found in driving distance that breed some kind of upland dog that could also retrieve and put just as much if not more effort into their dogs, were the DD breeders. They go through their fist evaluation for breeding at 8 weeks old. If they have some kind of problem that prevents them from meeting conformation standards, like deformations missing parts like teeth or what not, they are not allowed to breed. If at 8 weeks old they meet the breed standards then they are hunt tested and judged again on conformation the next spring after they are born. If they fail the hunt test or do not prove to meet the breed standards for conformation they are not allowed to breed. They also have to go through several health tests before they are allowed to breed.

If one of my labs fails a hunt test or tests positive for some disease then the only thing stopping me from breeding it is me. And the same thing is true for GWP's and GSP's that are AKC registered.

Again I think there are probably some very well breed dogs under the AKC system. However most of you who are commenting are avid bird dog hunters. There for I think that you have a higher probability of getting a AKC dog that will do what it was originally breed for. As most of you have said you look not only at its pedigree but the actual parents of the pup you are looking at. Again you know what to expect from a bird dog and I am guessing that if you don't see that in the parents (regardless of pedigree) you look else where for a pup.

The average bird dog owner has no clue about most of this testing or any idea of the gamble they are taking when they buy a pup for a family dog from some add in the paper. They assume that because it is pure breed it is going to be a great dog.

Again I think that a Breeding clubs that place strict standards on breeding are going to produce a superior dog on average than a breeding club that does not place any breeding standards on the dogs that are breed.

And yes buck460XVR I know that my new dog is starting out with a handicap (me). I have never trained a dog like this before and the learning curve is going to be steep and probably a little painful some times. But I think with some coaching from experienced trainers and some hard work on my part he will live up to most of his potential.