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Mike-Mat
June 28, 2012, 04:02 PM
Mosin Nagant: Cleaning with Windex?

What is the difference between using regular cleaning products vs. using Windex the then using regular products?

As long as it's clean, isn't that good enough?

I've shot my Mosin once and then used WD40 to flush it out like I do with all my guns. Then regular barrel cleaning with Hoppe's #9. Am I setting myself up for long tern corrosion?

Mike

rduckwor
June 28, 2012, 04:09 PM
Possibly. The corrosive salts found in this ammo are water soluble, thus the various recipes of boiling water, soapy water, or Windex. - Hint: all contain water.

Petroleum products may not effectively dissolve these salts.

hooligan1
June 28, 2012, 04:20 PM
Definitely want to use a soapy water mix when cleaning away corrosive primer residue. Then use your regular oils and such;)

tahunua001
June 28, 2012, 04:59 PM
it doesn't necessarily have to be windex, but something with ammonia in it. you don't even necessarily need ammonia, you just need hot(not boiling water and I normally take the stock off and throw all the metal parts in the bathtub and turn on the hot water....never had rust issues with the MNs.

Mike-Mat
June 28, 2012, 06:33 PM
I realize it's not that hard to take down the Mosin, but some times I only shoot 20-25 rounds. By the time wash it with water/ammonia, dry it off, oil it and reassemble, I'll have spent more time cleaning than shooting.

Mike

Slamfire
June 28, 2012, 06:40 PM
I've shot my Mosin once and then used WD40 to flush it out like I do with all my guns. Then regular barrel cleaning with Hoppe's #9. Am I setting myself up for long tern corrosion?

Yes you are.

It is the primer salts that are corrosive, not the gunpowder. Gunpowder is organic, primer salts are inorganic. Oils will dissolve gunpowder, water dissolves salts.

WD40 is oil and silicon, Hoppe's #9 used to be good with corrosive primers, I think it changed.

Use hot soapy water. The water will dissolve the salts, the soap the gunpowder.

chack
June 28, 2012, 07:56 PM
All I do is take a small bucket with hot soapy water in it (dish soap) then put the very end of the muzzle in the water. After removing the bolt, I get a patched cleaning rod wet with the soapy water then run it through the barrel from the chamber end.

Once it's all the way through, I pull it back so that the patch creates a suction and draws the soapy water into the barrel. I repeat this process about 20 or 30 times. You have to make sure you keep the muzzle pointed down and don't reverse direction until the patch is all the way out of the barrel.

I finish by rinsing the barrel and action with boiling hot clean water, allowing the gun to dry for a minute or two, then running an oily patch through the bore and coating everything else with an oiled 1" brush.

The water has to be really hot. That insures the salts get dissolved and that the water evaporates quickly.

Ammonia is a weak base, which can cause corrosion, so it isn't a simple answer of squirt ammonia Windex in it and don't worry about it. dilution is the solution, so the best results will be had by using lots of hot water. then coating with a light coat of oil to prevent the metal from contacting oxygen in the air.

Catfishman
June 28, 2012, 08:19 PM
What would happen if I didn't do the Windex thing? How quickly and how badly would the ammo damage the barrel and bolt? The ammo I have was advertised as "mildly corrosive".

Surely the Russians didn't us water and ammonia to clean their rifles?

I have several Nagants and I hardly ever shot them because I don't like having to immediately clean the rifles.

Capybara
June 28, 2012, 08:45 PM
I read another reply to a similar question elsewhere. The person replying had a chemistry background. His reply was that water alone was superior to Windex, superior to soap and water. He gave the chemical reaction reasons why, that totally made sense. Where did the original Russian conscripts clean the solvents out of their barrels? Right, in a creek or stream. I also don't think the water needs to be boiling. It's the simplest, water. Plain room temp tap water.

I think that a lot shooters would rather come up with elaborate procedures and rituals around corrosive ammo cleaning, it makes them feel as if they are doing a better job than they could with plain tap water. A large number of corrosive ammo shooters simply use a few water soaked patches, then their regular gun cleaner and oil. I am of the "getting it done with the least amount of drama" school unless someone can give me physical, chemical reaction reasons why these other procedures work better.

chack
June 28, 2012, 09:40 PM
My biggest reason for using very hot water is that it evaporates quickly and dissolves better than cold water. Have you ever tried to add sugar to cold tea versus hot tea? It dissolve way faster in the hot water. Have you ever spilled hot coffe compared to cold water? The hot coffee dries much faster;

I don't shoot as often as I use to and when I do shoot It is usually my more modern guns. I have rifles that haven't seen the range (or a cleaning) in 15 years, so the little extra step of using hot water is easy insurance.

The key is water though. Windex works primarily because of the water in it, not the ammonia.

Mike-Mat
June 28, 2012, 10:38 PM
So should I drop the entire bolt assembly in the bucket of hot soapy water? Some of the blow back has to be getting inside the bolt. That would definitely have to be disassembled to get all the moisture off the threads on the firing pin.

But I do like the suction in the bucket idea.

Someone mentioned Hoppe's #9 might be different now. The quart bottle I have, I bought in 1981. Probably the older formula. :-)

Mike

Ideal Tool
June 29, 2012, 12:18 AM
Hello, I am surprised there has been no mention of the old style (WW2-Korea) era GI bore solvent..O.D. metal cans..dark & stinky! This was designed just for corrosive ammo..is this stuff still available?

chack
June 29, 2012, 01:14 AM
deleted

Bamashooter
June 29, 2012, 01:14 AM
Ive had my mosin nagant's for years and all I have ever used was plain old water and I have yet to see rust inside the barrel of any of my rifles. I dont know where the windex thing came from but water by itself is sufficient to remove the corrosive residue. Maybe the windex helps in cleaning the rifle but I dont know, Ive never tried it.

raftman
June 29, 2012, 03:22 AM
Historically, I've used Windex knowing that the reason it works is it's mostly composed of water. The ammonia in Windex does no good, it's at too low a concentration to do anything, and if it were high enough to do something, it would quite possibly do more harm than good.

One day, my Windex bottle ran dry so I just refilled the spray bottle with water. Been using just plain tap water for a long time ever since and haven't ever had a single problem with it. After that, just follow up with the usual cleaning procedure with the solvent of choice and the gun oil of choice.

Obviously one shouldn't be negligent, but there's no need to complicate things and waste time/trouble.

Mike Irwin
June 29, 2012, 06:31 AM
"Surely the Russians didn't us water and ammonia to clean their rifles?"

Cleaning solutions provided by most nations during the corrosive priming era contained a lot of water and werer quite alkaline, sometimes ammonia, sometimes other compounds.

The reason for that is that the alkaline solution would remove any traces of that might hide corrosive priming salts.

The old GI Bore Cleaner (NASTY NASTY stuff!) at one time contained a fair amount of sodium carbonate.

Another benefit to this is that it would neutralize any residual acids left in the bore from the early smokeless powder. These powders often had residual acids left over from the manufacturing process.

The Chinese used to issue a double spout bottle - one side for oil, the other side for cleaning solution. The bottle I got with my SKS years ago still smelled vaguely of ammonia in the one side.

In fact, as you can see on this site (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://browningmgs.com/OilBottles/Images/BU_cutaway_T.jpg&imgrefurl=http://browningmgs.com/OilBottles/Details.htm&usg=__oAO8qc5X56EdjJYVlPhx6eOdUbA=&h=321&w=300&sz=28&hl=en&start=6&sig2=-H8dgXB_yqchKjWv0xLi2A&zoom=1&tbnid=90RL9gWregfCHM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=110&ei=aZHtT5TnM4jq9ATX0vmgDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dchinese%2Bgun%2Boil%2Bbottle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1) a fair number of nations used to issue the double solution bottles.

emcon5
June 29, 2012, 08:49 AM
All you need to clean after shooting corrosive ammo is a tea pot, a turkey baster and a bayonet.

As to how long you can leave it before you damage the rifle, it depends on where you are. The salts are not "corrosive" in the traditional sense, but they do attract moisture which will cause rust. The time involved is directly related to the humidity. I suspect in Phoenix you could go a while, but Louisiana, not so much.

I wish Surplusrifle.com was still around, they had an excellent test of how well the various cleaners worked on removing salts.

Scimmia
June 29, 2012, 10:00 AM
All you need to clean after shooting corrosive ammo is a tea pot, a turkey baster and a bayonet.

Even that is excessive. All you really need is a your normal cleaning supplies and a little bit of water. Clean as normal, then run a few wet patches through the bore, run a few dry patches through the bore and oil.

Mike-Mat
June 29, 2012, 10:21 AM
What kind of tea does the Mosin like, Orange Peko, or Green Tea? :D

Mike

Capybara
June 29, 2012, 11:13 AM
"All you need to clean after shooting corrosive ammo is a tea pot, a turkey baster and a bayonet."

This sounds like a parts list for a torture scene from "Inglorious Basterds".

chack
June 29, 2012, 12:15 PM
deleted

emcon5
June 29, 2012, 01:14 PM
Even that is excessive. All you really need is a your normal cleaning supplies and a little bit of water. Clean as normal, then run a few wet patches through the bore, run a few dry patches through the bore and oil.

The boiling water is much faster than what you propose, simply because I don't do a full cleaning every time I shoot. It usually isn't necessary.

-Put on the tea pot.
-Fix bayonet.
-Stick rifle in ground behind garage.
-Squirt boiling water into chamber with Turkey Baster several times, so a good quantity of water has gone through the bore. I also dip the front 1/2" of the bolt into the water, and swirl it around a couple times.
-wait ~30 seconds, most of the water will evaporate.
-put catch pan under bore, squirt wd40 into chamber, until it runs out muzzle. Squirt WD40 on the bolt face, and in the firing pin hole.
-squirt breakfree into chamber until it runs out the muzzle, plus on the bolt face, and in the firing pin hole (tiny bit).
-run 1 dry patch through.

And you are done. It takes about a minute, including the time waiting for the water to evaporate.

DPris
June 29, 2012, 01:53 PM
The Russian "bottles" issued as part of the cleaning kits were double-sided.
Oil in one side, alkaline solution in the other side.
When out of the issued fluids I'd imagine they used anything they could find to clean & lube the Mosin.
Denis

Stephanie B
June 29, 2012, 09:01 PM
Instead of a turkey baster, try using a transmission funnel. You can pick up a plastic one from Wally-Woild for a couple of bucks.

jhenry
June 29, 2012, 09:08 PM
All I ever do with corrosive ammo, and I shoot a fair bit of it, is to run 2 or 3 windex patches down the bore, wipe the bolt face with one, and then clean as normal. No rust ever. Fast and easy. No special supplies or incantations needed.

RC20
June 30, 2012, 11:25 AM
I don't know if Hopees 9 has changed to deal with EPA, but it is still approved (actually recommended) for black powder and that means corrosive.

If you can keep the gun in a safe then a desiccant will control the humidity.

More humid the more issues there are.

emcon5
June 30, 2012, 05:23 PM
One of the previous times this came up, a guy on Calguns ended up calling Hoppes to get the straight answer. Which was: "No"

The old formula worked fine, the current formula, not so much.

Hoppes No9 plus is formulated for Black powder, and should work fine on corrosive primers. http://www.hoppes.com/products/no9_plus.html

That being said, unless you shoot black powder, buying a special solvent just to do the same job as water you get from the tap for free, seems silly.

essohbe
July 2, 2012, 03:39 PM
All you need is water, then clean like you normally do.

Using ammonia is an old wive's tale that does nothing except help the salts corrode.

Hoppe's #9 used to be good with corrosive primers, I think it changed.

It probably did change, I use it after shooting corrosive 7n6 soviet in my AK74 and it still rusted around the gasblock and some other parts. I just stick with hosing the whole rifle down with water now and then cleaning as normal.

Mike Irwin
July 2, 2012, 07:49 PM
The old formula Hoppes No. 9 had a ton of benzene in it, which could carry a fair amount of water in it, IIRC.

However, benezene is one hell of a nasty chemical, so it was removed. Now there is almost no water in Hoppes No. 9, so no, it is NOT a suitable solvent for removing corrosive primer or black powder fouling.

Mike Irwin
July 2, 2012, 08:00 PM
"Using ammonia is an old wive's tale that does nothing except help the salts corrode."

As I noted above, ammonia is good for removing trace amounts of oil which can hide corrosive priming fouling.

The ammonia found in windex or in just about any other household application is HIGHLY diluted with water.

Household ammonia is roughly 85 to 95 % water.

The military, many years ago, use as cleaners ammonia solutions that were quite a bit more potent. Part of the reason was to remove cupronickel fouling, but it was also thought that the ammonia helped "neutralize" the corrosive salts (that's incorrect, obviously).

In the strength that the military used they began to see problems with nitrogen or hydrogen embrittlement of barrel steel.

My father was a civil engineer, and had a blue print machine at the house that developed the prints with bottles of 28% ammonia solution. That stuff was unbelievably nasty if it was spilled. It would pit metal fairly quickly.

But, in the strength that most of us have avaiable to use, we don't need to worry about that, and household ammonia solutions, while not of tremendous benefit, certainly aren't much of a hazard.

So, no, household strengh ammonia solutions really aren't an old wives tale when it comes to being able to help prevent corrosive priming problems.

Ozzieman
July 4, 2012, 11:06 AM
Error sorry

orsogato
July 6, 2012, 09:42 PM
I'll throw in my $.02 and give you three options.

1. Windex and Water (mixed 1/4 windex 3/4 water) works followed up with regular cleaning.

2. Ballistol Works fairly well.

3. Ed's Red Works great! (Equal parts of Dexron III automobile transmission fluid, odorless kerosene, mineral spirits, and acetone.). I personally go with this route and use "ER" almost exclusively.

boostedtt91
July 8, 2012, 03:20 PM
I have been using window cleaner w/ ammonia for awhile now to clean my guns after shooting corrosive ammo and has worked great. Its very cheap and ready when you need it.

Mike Irwin
July 9, 2012, 09:13 AM
"Ed's Red Works great! (Equal parts of Dexron III automobile transmission fluid, odorless kerosene, mineral spirits, and acetone.). I personally go with this route and use "ER" almost exclusively."


Not sure why it works, as it shoudn't. There's not a drop of water in that mix, and you need water to dissolve the potassium chloride fouling.

Unless, possibly, the high detergent content of the Dexron is removing the salts...