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BoogieMan
June 28, 2012, 06:23 AM
Can a AK rival an AR for accuracy?
I know the AK is made to be a "fire no matter what" type weapon and I have a great deal of respect for them. BUT, im not going to war. I want to shoot accurately and reliably at the range and at the match. I love the looks of the AK with the wood furniture. I need to move into a semi auto center fire rifle and just trying to figure out what way to go. Also are there other routes I should explore like maybe a mini-14? How about some of the bullpup designs?
I think my best bet is to be .223, cheap ammo. Will any of them limit me in competitions like 3-gun or service rifle?

bfskinnerpunk
June 28, 2012, 06:50 AM
A very well honed AK can probably compete with a very average AR, but even then I doubt it can beat an AR in accuracy.

I am interested in alternative, too. The M14 type rifles and even the Ruger SR 556.

Weight, I think, is the primary concern on those.

TNT
June 28, 2012, 07:13 AM
AR vs AK vs M1 Garand lol sorry I had to through it into the mix Just my two cents AR will beat the AK hands down anytime. AK even though it is a tough rifle accuracy it is not known for. That was never one of its strong points. Reliability yes but its more of a point and shoot weapon based upon Soviet tactics. Give enough of them to your average peasant who has never shot a gun and hope he hits what he is shooting at Volume over quality.

Aaron1100us
June 28, 2012, 07:21 AM
One thing the AK has over the AR is that the AK shoots a .30 caliber round and the AR shoots a .22 caliber round. Never shot an AK, have shot an AR. The AR is very accurate and is fun to shoot. But I like the 7.62x39 over the .223. Closest I've come to shooting an AK was the SKS I used to have.

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2

Sinlessorrow
June 28, 2012, 07:22 AM
One thing to note is cheap ammo is cheap ammo.

No matter how good your barrel it will still shoot cheap ammo like crap.

Cheap ammo uses cheap bullet designs that are mechanically 2-3moa, if you get good ammo that uses good bullets those are easily .5moa, but dont expect that from 55gr fmj M193

Crow Hunter
June 28, 2012, 08:35 AM
One thing to note is cheap ammo is cheap ammo.

No matter how good your barrel it will still shoot cheap ammo like crap.

Cheap ammo uses cheap bullet designs that are mechanically 2-3moa, if you get good ammo that uses good bullets those are easily .5moa, but dont expect that from 55gr fmj M193

Absolutely correct.

Don't compare an AK shooting cheap Wolf steel case vs an AR shooting match type ammo.

That being said, it is harder to make the AK as mechanically accurate as the AR.

It is also much harder to make a M1a or a Garand as accurate as an AR.

The AR lends itself to higher accuracy because of the reduced operating mass, multi-lugged bolt locking into the barrel extension instead of the receiver or just a 2 lugged bolt. (More repeatable lock up)

Aperature sights are usually easier to use for most people than AK type notch in post.

AK triggers are not usually known for light crisp letoffs. I have one (for sale by the way;)) that has an unusally nice trigger for an AK and a stash of South African brass cased 7.62X39 which is exceptionally accurate in that AK. Wolf and Chinese steel core, not so much.

Depending on the manufacture of the AK, it could have a .311 vs a .308 barrel and the ammo can also vary depending on country of manufacture.

If you really want an AK and you like to tinker, get what you want and do what you can to make it more accurate.

But if you really want supreme accuracy in a semi, get an AR with a free floated barrel and optics ready and slap a magnified optic on it and have fun.

kraigwy
June 28, 2012, 08:47 AM
Can a AK rival an AR for accuracy?

Walk down the line at Perry or any other High Power Rifle match and count the AK vs. ARs.

Better yet, count the people NOT shooting ARs.

Cheap ammo uses cheap bullet designs that are mechanically 2-3moa, if you get good ammo that uses good bullets those are easily .5moa, but dont expect that from 55gr fmj M193

Don't discount M193, that's the ammo I used in my LE Sniper Rifle. I've shot some and seen some dern nice scores posted with the M193 out of M16a1s.

M193 is accurate enough, where it drops off is at distance. Past 300-400 yards. Beyond that I like heavier bullets.

I put on CMP GSM and High Power clinics and matches. I see people show up with AKs and SKSs. What I don't see is people showing up with AKs & SKSs TWICE.

BoogieMan
June 28, 2012, 08:47 AM
If you really want an AK and you like to tinker, get what you want and do what you can to make it more accurate.

But if you really want supreme accuracy in a semi, get an AR with a free floated barrel and optics ready and slap a magnified optic on it and have fun.
Sage advise. Thank you. I am going to stick with the AK. It should be able to fit multiple uses best for me. Also prefer the lighter recoil of a .223 for follow ups.
Now I just have to decide which one.

Skans
June 28, 2012, 09:52 AM
There are plenty of AK variants that rival any rifle, including the AR for accuracy. Research the Chinese NDM-86.

kraigwy
June 28, 2012, 10:03 AM
There are plenty of AK variants that rival any rifle, including the AR for accuracy. Research the Chinese NDM-86.

I'll believe that when I see one beat an AR at the National Matches, either Across the Course, or more specificity shooting Service Rifle 1000 yard matches.

Crow Hunter
June 28, 2012, 10:40 AM
I am going to stick with the AK. It should be able to fit multiple uses best for me. Also prefer the lighter recoil of a .223 for follow ups.
Now I just have to decide which one.

The .223 in an AK are not all the same. Each has different magazines and some don't have the reputation of reliablility that the AK has. I have no personal experience with this however. My AK experience is only with 7.62X39 in a Polytech AKS 762 and a Milled Hungarian Post dealer sample (Full auto).

If your primary use is going to be shooting for groups from a bench/at the range, you will be much more satisfied with an AR in .223. Much easier to mount optics, FF barrels, easily attainable match triggers, higher quality ammo from more suppliers.

But if you really like the AK and are going in with both eyes open, have at it and have fun.:D

insomni
June 28, 2012, 11:10 AM
lol. no. AK's are not built for accuracy. They're accurate enough, and that's it.

Firing an AK in semi-auto just feels wrong.

tahunua001
June 28, 2012, 11:38 AM
I've owned Aks and ARs in multiple calibers and I've shot a few bullpups/PC carbines and a few other of the newer goofy gun designs.

in comparison between an AK47 clone and an AR15 chambered in 7.62x39, the AR held tighter groups throughout and the cold barrel flyers were not as far off as they were in the AK IIRC. I finally called it quits on trying to warm up to the AK platform and sold mine after 3 years of trying to make due with "minute of tourbus" accuracy, scrubbing rust out of it monthly whether it had been shot recently or not, and the uncomfortable feel of the rifle inhand and controls that seem more suited to a 22lr plinking rifle than a modern combat platform. during my last guys weekend out, my brother, brother-in-law and I were out at our favorite ground squirrel spot which puts the little buggers at anywhere from 25 yards to 250 yards. I was using a 10/22 with stingers, my brother was using his AK and the in law was using his 22-250. when we parked up to have a go at the 200 yard embankment that is squirrel metropolis, there was 1 kill from the 22lr, 2 from the 22-250 and 0 from the AK. I might add that of the 3 shooters I take the bronze medal for accuracy(so you can take that for what it's worth).please do not flame, this is merely my feelings and observations on the AK platform

bullpups are normally not the greatest thing since sliced bread. a lot of the conversion kits are full of reliability problems, they make it diffucult to even field strip the rifle for cleaning and they move the muzzle and action much closer to the shooters face which requires you to wear hearing and eye protection(especially the 30 cal bullpup kits) and guarantees that a left handed shooter is going to be slapped in the face by brass. rifles designed as bullpups generally are a lot nicer but they all seem to have bad triggers. they only bullpup I ever shot that was decently reliable and accurate was the FN Herstal FS2000 but the irons on it are terrible and as previously stated you really have to fight the trigger. if you are ok with spending upwards of $2000 on a rifle like that then be my guest. I wouldn't say I would never own one but I would definitely wait until I found a good deal on one used and put a red dot on it.

as for ARs I just love them. I own one in 223 and 9mm(the 9mm has wood furniture, fancy that) and they are my favorite semis of all time. the 223 has dropped deer at 250 yards and the 9mm is a varmints nightmare out to 200 yards(don't knock it till you've tried it).

barnbwt
June 28, 2012, 11:58 AM
Don't forget the VZ-58, Czech gun that looks like an AK, but has guts closer to an SKS or STG44. It is short-stroke gas operated, so it has a low moving mass, like a piston AR. Its reciever and mag are each a pound lighter than AK equivalents. Bolt lockup is tilting bolt tab, like the SVT, FAL, or a number of other great designs.

TCB

Glockstar .40
June 28, 2012, 06:37 PM
check out rock river arms new piece. AR-15 that takes AK mags! pretty sweet lookin gun

Mr Budha
June 29, 2012, 08:58 AM
^Just saw it. Didn't think i'd like it but that's actually pretty sweet.

BIG P
June 29, 2012, 05:56 PM
NO they cant,Not today maybe next week but not now.

Ignition Override
June 29, 2012, 11:44 PM
Are most people aware of Tech Sights, available for the SKS, AK clone, Ruger 10/22 and Marlin 60?
The Tech Sight makes my SKS a different rifle.

Pond, James Pond
June 30, 2012, 02:20 AM
Given the variations that the market has inspired, perhaps the question should be more about AKs in .223 and ARs given that these calibres are available.

As I understand it, the .223 is a more accurate, flatter shooting, round than the 7.62x39.

How do these two rifles compare if in that same chambering?
At a guess, I would say that the AR will still win in accuracy, but perhaps the gap will have shrunk somewhat...

And I now also see, after posting, that this was already discussed...

Late again...:rolleyes:

Sport45
June 30, 2012, 03:28 AM
This discussion just isn't complete without a link to this:

AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant
(http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)

:)

tahunua001
June 30, 2012, 12:35 PM
I always giggle when that spreadsheet is brought up...it is a little dated though and it's apparent in prices
AK=$350
AR=$900
Mosin Nagant= $59.95

prices nowadays
AK=$650
AR=$570 at walmart
mosin nagant= $150 after FFL+S&H

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
July 2, 2012, 07:13 PM
You should check out pof, their website is pof-usa.com . I have several of their rifles and i love them. If you are looking for something in 5.56 or 6.8 their p415 is great. They say they are 2200 dolars on their website, but i've seen some people get them for around 1700 - 1800 dollars. in that package you get a wonderful lightweight simple piston system (3 parts), a great trigger (mine was at 3.5 pounds), fully ambidextrous controls, a very nice free floated barrel, a great handguard. I have seen their barrels last for around 40,000 rounds or so. They are very accurate in the hands of a skilled marksman. I can hit a penny at 100 yards most of the time with match ammo. The guns made by pof have had no issues with stringing, even when i put a good amount rounds downrange in full auto. They are as reliable if not more so than the hk416. And to top it off, they don't need to be lubed, and very rarely need to be cleaned. I love mine. I wouldn't trade it for any other gun. So all in all, the pof combines the accuracy of a custom ar, durability and reliability greater than that of an ak, and the ability to hang more crap on it than a christmas tree into one gun. If you can afford it, get it. Oh and i almost forgot to mention, it's not picky at all about ammo, it'll shoot wolf till you start noticing the recoil from a .223. Than after you dirty it up, the np3 plating makes it so easy to clean. I love pof. Sometimes you get a lemon, and you just tell pof, and send them your gun, and they will replace any bad parts, and if they can't easily fix it, they will send you a new one. Good luck to you.

Willie Lowman
July 3, 2012, 02:54 PM
There are some very nice AKs out there. There are some downright junk ARs out there.... :rolleyes:

If you find a good AK you will need to find good ammo for it. That ammo doesn't come in steel cases with coal for gun powder like nearly all the x39 fodder available. ( I know they don't use coal for gunpowder, that was sarcasm. They use something much less consistent that burns even dirtier. )

Once uppon a time I owned a FPK/PSL "dragunov" While the folks that put it together didn't know what to stamp on the side of it, they did build a great rifle. When I fed it 7n1 ammo I could shoot under 2 inch groups with it at 100 yards (till the super thin barrel got hot)

tobnpr
July 4, 2012, 03:46 PM
The AK can never be as accurate as a similar quality AR due to the mechanics of the gas system.
This from Guns Magazine explains the difference:

Current match-grade AR-15s and clones are capable of astonishing accuracy. Achieving a high level of accuracy is more difficult with the AK, in part due to differences in operating design. Both are gas-operated, with gas tapped off from a hole in the barrel. In the AR-15 design gas travels through a stationary gas tube above the barrel and impinges directly on the bolt carrier. With the use of steel handguards to free-float the barrel, and with no components attached to the barrel in motion during the firing cycle, the AR-15 barrel is free to vibrate naturally and consistently.

The AK uses a piston connected to the bolt by an operating rod. During the firing cycle the piston and operating rod are in motion. As Krebs points out, "As the piston separates from the gas block, it tweaks the barrel while the projectile is still in the bore. A short barrel in an AK is inherently more accurate. Not only is it more rigid, it lets the bullet clear the bore more quickly with less influence from barrel movement."

While it specifically mentions Kreb's AK, the mechanics are the same...

Same reason that the Mini-14, with the M-14 Garand type action, is inherently less accurate (NOT Mini bashing, I like them...just pointing out a difference!)- the heavy op rod is moving backwards while the bullet is still in the bore.

Destructo6
July 5, 2012, 10:44 AM
If you don't yet have an AR, buy one.

You're not going to find a rifle that's easier to shoot/learn to shoot, parts/accessories availability, support, knowledge, etc.

Buy the AK later for fun or to fill a collection niche.

Eghad
July 6, 2012, 03:01 AM
Buy Both......:)