PDA

View Full Version : Shotgun mythbusting chapter two


Amsdorf
June 17, 2012, 07:35 PM
The myth I'm busting in this video series is that you don't have to aim a shotgun but can simply Rambo it from the hip.

Based on comments received, I shot a "Chapter Two" showing an example of hip shooting and aimed shooting, using 00 Buck.

In a self-defense situation, when you are using 00 Buck, inside your home, where you do NOT want stray pellets penetrating into other rooms, or even other houses, you must aim your shotgun, that is, shoulder it and sight it, not simply rely on point-shooting from your hip.

So, here you go. As far as I'm concerned the myth is busted.

What do you think? Take a look and let me know.

"You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnEf0XplJu0)

shortwave
June 18, 2012, 11:13 AM
What do you think?

The fact that you rapid fired, hip shot your shotgun has very little to do with your previous thread of aiming versus pointing a shotgun.

Water-Man
June 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
The outcome should have been obvious but thanks for your effort.

Amsdorf
June 18, 2012, 12:24 PM
Interesting reactions, thanks.

Dave McC
June 18, 2012, 02:50 PM
Thanks, Paul. Unlike so many, you took the time and effort to test things out.

And your results were predictable.

Hip shooting is egregious at more than contact distance.

Aiming produces much better results.

And maybe some of the nay sayers should back away from the keyboards, hit the range and make their OWN videos to rebutt, reinforce or co-oberate your results.....

Amsdorf
June 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
Dave, thanks...

I'm learning to take silly comments in stride as part for the course, and negative comments as well, though if it a thoughtful negative remark you can sometimes learn from it.

Constructive criticism, however, is always welcome.

TheKlawMan
June 18, 2012, 03:45 PM
What got under the skin of some, like me, was that you seemed to challenge the utiity of point shooting. If what you meant that some kind of directed fire was needed was needed, the more accurate the better, I think all would agree with you.

Mike Irwin
June 18, 2012, 04:18 PM
The results may have been predictable, but I can't even count how many people I've met over the years who think hip shooting a shotgun, especially one with a pistol grip instead of a buttstock, is the easiest thing in the world.

I watched a jackass put three rounds into the ceiling at the range where I used to work before I could get onto the range to stop him. Young punk who thought he knew it all. When he popped off at me I booted him off the range and out of the store.

I regularly see people trying this at the ranges I go to, so obviously someone thinks its easy and this video would be something new for them.


Last thing I'll say is this. If you don't have something constructive and engaging to say, then you don't have any reason to be posting in this thread.

If you think a snide comment is constructive and engaging, I'll be MORE than happy to show you how it's not. :mad:

oneounceload
June 18, 2012, 04:33 PM
Thanks, Paul. Unlike so many, you took the time and effort to test things out.

And your results were predictable.

Hip shooting is egregious at more than contact distance.

Aiming produces much better results.

And maybe some of the nay sayers should back away from the keyboards, hit the range and make their OWN videos to rebutt, reinforce or co-oberate your results.....
__________________

While shooting from the hip is best left to Hollywood stars, aiming vs pointing still is the question.

Just because someone makes a video on the net, doe NOT make it gospel, and Dave, of ANY one here, you should be first in that line of agreement

But then I disagree with Chuck Hawks and others who feel a 12" LOP and scrunching up on a shotgun is the way to go - there is WAY too much data to disprove that line of thinking

shortwave
June 18, 2012, 07:45 PM
While shooting from the hip is best left to Hollywood stars, aiming vs pointing still is the question.


The exact and only reason I responded to this post.

I believe it's common sense that most everyone would shoot better shouldering a shotgun versus hip shooting.

This video proves the fact that the OP can shoulder his shotgun and aim, better then he can hip shoot. That would be true for most but does not in any way dis-spell any myths about point shooting versus aiming.
Course, unless one considers point shooting as shooting from the hip and I don't think any of the point shooters who have commented on either thread were referring to hip shooting as point shooting.

Sooo....I guess my question to the OP for clarification is:

....in your first as well as this thread, were/are you referring to hip shooting as point shooting?

Amsdorf
June 18, 2012, 08:50 PM
Honestly, I think my point is clear enough. Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays.

My concern remains that people not make the mistake of thinking that the shotgun pattern is such that they will be able to spray and pray from the hip, hopeful that they will knock the bad guy down.

My first video showed how a shotgun patterns shooting 00 buck even out to unrealistically far HD distances, and the closer you get, the tighter the pattern.

I went on then to say, and show, that you need to aim the weapon to make absolutely sure that relatively tight pattern of highly lethal 00Buck hits your target, not most of the pellets, all of them, so that you do not send a pellet into a loved one in another room, or a neighbor in another apartment or even a house close to yours.

TheKlawMan
June 18, 2012, 09:28 PM
Honestly, I think my point is clear enough. Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays.

When you said that, Amsdorf, were you talking about the below post by Zippy?

With training, you can accurately point a shotgun without having it mounted. This might be useful in a HD situation. How do you think the exhibition shooters pull off all those crazy shots? It's not magic, it's with dismounted pointing.

Neither that nor anything else I have seen posted by anyone anywhere even comes close to having insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays I am sorry, but it almost sounds as though you make up myths that don't exist so you have something to bust.

Amsdorf
June 18, 2012, 09:40 PM
Thanks for sharing your opinions.

shortwave
June 18, 2012, 09:42 PM
Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip,


As I went back to closed 'chapter one' and read through the pages, unless I missed something, I did not read anyone promoting shooting from the hip in a SD situation. Please quote post if I missed it. Nor have I ever heard anyone(other then the movies)promoting such.
The first mention of shooting from the hip was you in post #3.

Then the discussion pursued the art of point shooting versus aiming. Which are two different ways of shooting a shotgun and IMO, still not addressed.


This is the reason I asked the question to you if you are calling hip shooting point shooting since your 'chapter two' is showing hip shooting versus aiming.

Again, thanks for the vid. but it does not address pointing versus aiming a shotgun.
Too, I assure you, at SD distance, if I'm in a blacked out area(can't see my sights) and an I.D.'ed BG is silhouetted, my point shooting from the shoulder will suffice.

One more question, what choke were you using in your vids?

GM1967
June 19, 2012, 10:16 AM
Couldn't one fire a shotgun from the hip with reasonable accuracy if using a laser sight? Or at least a mounted tactical flashlight, using the beam to help aim?

(Hopefully this will be considered "constructive")

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 10:44 AM
Yes, absolutely, using a laser to aim the shotgun makes it possible to be highly accurate shooting it from the hip, or from your little toe!

Seriously, it is a great tool.

I use a Crimson Trace laser grip on my EDC precisely for this purpose.

But, of course, using a laser dot would definitely be "aiming" it no simply spraying and praying from the hip.

I'd be much less sure of simply relying on a flashlight beam.

johnbt
June 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
"so obviously someone thinks its easy"

Certainly not easy, but not impossible for the very talented who have practiced it at length. Are those talented individuals a myth? Was I dreaming I saw them do it? ;)

John

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 01:24 PM
Reminder:

Point of the video was to show people who are unfamiliar with the shotgun and how it works NOT to believe the myth that you can simply spray and pray and hope to hit your target and NOT hit unintended targets.

And, as for point shooting from the hip, of course, it is possible, but one would have to be a highly trained and skilled shotgun operator to trust those skills will all come into play on a dark and stormy night with bad guys in the house.

zippy13
June 19, 2012, 01:25 PM
The myth I'm busting in this video series is that you don't have to aim a shotgun but can simply Rambo it from the hip.
That may be a myth shared at the Mall Ninja Forum, but I'm guessing the TFL members are a little more in touch with reality. Of course, pointing from the hip takes practice -- perhaps more practice than aiming a mounted gun.

Your video only showed that you can't hip shoot very well with that Benelli. The very first thing I noticed, in your introduction, was the gun you selected is designed for aiming and not for pointing (talk about bias). With an appropriate gun, techniques and practice you could be placing your first shot on target pointing from the hip.

What are you going to do, in a SD environment, if you confront someone who is a competent pointer and you don't have your gun mounted? You won't have time to align those fancy sights. Too many newer shooters believe MIL/LE guns and tacti-cool accessories are a viable substitute for comprehensive training.

I've mentioned this previously: Adding a light to your HD gun makes you a target. Why not spend the ca$h on a whole house lighting control system? It's useful everyday, not just in HD situations.
In a self-defense situation, when you are using 00 Buck, inside your home, where you do NOT want stray pellets penetrating into other rooms, or even other houses, you must aim your shotgun, that is, shoulder it and sight it, not simply rely on point-shooting from your hip.
Is that really your reasoning? A simpler answer is to use smaller shot, and not rely on your perfect aim and fat BGs. How are you going to tell your neighbor, "Sorry, I hit your child, I was using 00-Buck and the BG ducked."? And, don't rely on the BG stopping your pellets. It's my experience, a 00-Buck pellet may still be lethal after passing a fleshy mass.

Doyle
June 19, 2012, 01:41 PM
Zippy makes a good point. What you really showed in the video is that you need more practice hip shooting. I agree that the spray-and-pray method is bad. However there is no reason that a we'll trained person shooting from the hip can't be effectively accurate at HD ranges.

oneounceload
June 19, 2012, 01:58 PM
However there is no reason that a we'll trained person shooting from the hip can't be effectively accurate at HD ranges.

Sure there is....because no WELL-trained person is going to use that methodology.......;)

Hip shooting is great in Hollywood movies, as is the spray and pray methodology used in video games

Unfortunately, life is neither a Hollywood movie or a video game - there is no "do-over" switch when something goes wrong

Anyone with any modicum of balance and coordination can reflexively point better than aim and do it faster - do it home with your off-trigger hand's index finger and eyes closed to point to a spot on a wall like a light switch - then close your eyes and get you red-dot tacky-cooled shotgun and try to do the same as fast. That time you spend trying to focus your eye through the scope will usually mean you're dead in a real time scenario

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 04:23 PM
Thanks, OneOunce.

And as for "red dot" if I'm not mistaken I think what people are referring to is not a red dot scope, but a laser aiming system, throwing a red laser dot down range.

I can see that being a very effective way to engage a target, accurately, and very quickly.

zippy13
June 19, 2012, 04:37 PM
To an old school shotgunner, Red Dot is a brand of propellant, and a registered trademark of Alliant Powder. ;)

markj
June 19, 2012, 04:46 PM
Years ago we was shooting clays with a 410 single shot. My good cousin Tanna (A girl) took the gun, aimed it to the sky said pull, turned her head, closed her eyes and powdered that clay :) wish I had a vid but that wasnt around in 1968 as it is today. So what does this tell us? turn the head and close the eyes will do it? Nah, means she was one lucky gal that day :)

I hunt a lot, shoot a lot of wild pheas and quail. Bird flushes I dont focus on that little bead on the end of the barrel. Eyes are on the game, gun naturally swings, shot hits the game kills it dead. That is how its done. Learn it, live it, enjoy it.

g.willikers
June 19, 2012, 05:00 PM
There's an older fellow who has videos of himself shooting clay birds from the hip.
He rarely misses them.
On the other hand, the last time I was at the range, there was a young fellow trying it, and he couldn't hit a stationary, 30" square cardboard target, from 25 yds.
Like most things, how successful it is depends on who is doing it.

oneounceload
June 19, 2012, 06:47 PM
And as for "red dot" if I'm not mistaken I think what people are referring to is not a red dot scope, but a laser aiming system, throwing a red laser dot down range.

I can see that being a very effective way to engage a target, accurately, and very quickly.

Possibly, but if you are looking where your red beam is bouncing all over the place and not at the BG pointing his gun at you already - you are dead

When milliseconds counts, do you really want to be fumbling to make sure it is switched on and then that it is pointing at your intended targets? Your EYES are faster than anything when it comes to telling your brain what is happening and can result in your reactions being that much faster......how much? As long as it is faster than the BG, you are still alive

Try relying on your eyes and brains and not on gizmos and gadgets that can fail - like Murphy - at the wrong time

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 07:10 PM
Then we are back to the need to be darn sure you are aiming at what you want to hit in a SD situation when using 00Buck.

Hence, my point.

:rolleyes:

oneounceload
June 19, 2012, 07:56 PM
Nope, we are back to proving that pointing your gun, using your index finger alongside the barrel, is the fastest way to bring the gun to bear...:cool:

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 08:36 PM
Ah...not really, but carry on.

shortwave
June 19, 2012, 09:35 PM
Got another question for ya Amsdorf(even though you didn't answer the one about 'what choke you used in your vid':

Do you think you can shoulder a shotgun, aim and hit your target faster then someone can shoulder a shotgun,point and hit their target?

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 09:53 PM
You bet, with two hands tied behind my back.

:D

shortwave
June 19, 2012, 10:14 PM
Much thanks for the earnest answer to an earnest question, Amsdorf. :rolleyes:

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 10:17 PM
Again...

You are assuming somebody pointing from the hip can actually put all the pellets from 00Buck into the target.

I think that is a risky assumption.

But, I repeat myself.

shortwave
June 19, 2012, 10:33 PM
You are assuming somebody pointing from the hip can actually put all the pellets from 00Buck into the target.


Wow!

Where in the world did you get the idea I was assuming anything about shooting from the hip from this...

....Do you think you can shoulder a shotgun, aim and hit your target faster then someone can shoulder a shotgun,point and hit their target?


Nothing in that question has or even hints of having anything to do with shooting from the hip.

:confused::confused::confused:

Did you mis-read the question or are you intentionally evading it?

zippy13
June 19, 2012, 10:35 PM
You are assuming somebody pointing from the hip can actually put all the pellets from 00Buck into the target.
All the pellets? With your 00-buck, it only takes one!

Armsdorf, the more you try to make your point, the more it seems your experience with shotgunning is quite limited. At my club, there were members who could hit doubles, from Skeet's station-4 with their gun behind their back (or above their head). Many clubs have members who enjoy developing their dismounted shooting skills.

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 11:15 PM
Egads....

One pellet goes in bad guy the rest go..... where?

Through the wall, through the house, killiing or maiming loved ones in the house.

I'm sorry, you must be choosing to be obtuse. The point is you aim it in order to prevent pellets missing the intended target.

:rolleyes:

Amsdorf
June 19, 2012, 11:16 PM
And for the previous guy...if you are pointing it, you are aiming it.

TheKlawMan
June 19, 2012, 11:23 PM
This could be an interesting grudge match. Say a healthy young stud like Amsdorf shooting against an inexperience point shooter like oneounceload, if they are located in the same part of the country.

shortwave
June 19, 2012, 11:48 PM
From this answer...

if you are pointing it, you are aiming it.

This...

This could be an interesting grudge match. Say a healthy young stud like Amsdorf shooting against an inexperience point shooter like oneounceload, if they are located in the same part of the country.
...

...wouldn't take very long.

At any rate, at this point, given his above stated answer, I'm thinking the OP needs to learn a bit more basics about shotgunning before making many more shotgunning 'myth busting' video's....

....but I will say , with the likes of the experienced shotgunners that frequent this forum (oneounce,zippy,klawman, Lee Lapin, Slugo, BigJimP) just to mention a few, with the right attitude he's in the right place to learn.

Think I'll bow outta this one, sit back and see if I can learn a bit myself.

Thanks for the vid. OP.

Signed,

Previous Guy

zippy13
June 20, 2012, 12:25 AM
I'm sorry, you must be choosing to be obtuse. The point is you aim it in order to prevent pellets missing the intended target.
I'm not being obtuse, you're missing the point, I'll say again from my post #19: Is that really your reasoning? A simpler answer is to use smaller shot, and not rely on your perfect aim and fat BGs. How are you going to tell your neighbor, "Sorry, I hit your child, I was using 00-Buck and the BG ducked."? And, don't rely on the BG stopping your pellets. It's my experience, a 00-Buck pellet may still be lethal after passing a fleshy mass.

Two of the basic rules of gun handling are know your target and know your background. I've never heard of use your target as a bullet trap.

zippy13
June 20, 2012, 12:42 AM
And for the previous guy...if you are pointing it, you are aiming it.
Amsdork, you originally stated that you have to aim to hit a target, pointing won't work (at least for you). Now you're saying pointing is aiming. If that's now the case, then we can hit a target by pointing at it. You've just busted your own mythbust.

MLeake
June 20, 2012, 01:59 AM
zippy13, with regard to smaller shot, three problems.

1) At close ranges, the shot pattern tends to act like a solid mass - IE, birdshot will blast through drywall really efficiently within a few yards. And the solid-like mass covers a small area. (Aim - or good pointing - counts.)

2) At further ranges, a lot more pellets are flying. Each is individually less destructive, but there are more of them to potentially miss the target and wreak havoc on family members. (Aim counts.)

3) At ranges where the shot pattern has spread enough to not blast through walls like a solid, the shot pattern has spread enough that pellets achieve individual (vs massed) penetration on the BG. (I'll stick with my low-recoil 00, thanks, and point or aim the gun.)

darkgael
June 20, 2012, 06:40 AM
About pointing.....
Simply doing a search on Google for Patrick Flanigan or Tom Knapp and watching the resulting videos should be enough to convince even the most close-minded that point shooting can be accurate (obviously with a lot of practice).
Not wanting to search? Here is a link to a Flanigan video of him breaking seven hand thrown clays with a pump gun "from the hip".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7xKNuxFI8

Pete

zincwarrior
June 20, 2012, 07:13 AM
The results may have been predictable, but I can't even count how many people I've met over the years who think hip shooting a shotgun, especially one with a pistol grip instead of a buttstock, is the easiest thing in the world.

I watched a jackass put three rounds into the ceiling at the range where I used to work before I could get onto the range to stop him. Young punk who thought he knew it all. When he popped off at me I booted him off the range and out of the store.

I regularly see people trying this at the ranges I go to, so obviously someone thinks its easy and this video would be something new for them.


Last thing I'll say is this. If you don't have something constructive and engaging to say, then you don't have any reason to be posting in this thread.

If you think a snide comment is constructive and engaging, I'll be MORE than happy to show you how it's not.

You can shoot shotgun on your range Mike? Are you talking hip shooting at skeet or something else?

I didn't know people who actually own shotguns and shoot them try hip shooting. Wow. :confused:

johnbt
June 20, 2012, 07:32 AM
"I didn't know people who actually own shotguns and shoot them try hip shooting."

My cousin and I tried hip shooting when we were kids 50 years ago and would camp out on his grandparents' farm or on my grandparents'. Of course we couldn't afford a lot of ammo to practice, but we bought all we could manage and shot every round. You know how some kids would steal cigarettes from their parents? We pilfered ammo.

What we did was use firecrackers and cherry bombs to launch tin cans off of a flat rock and shoot at them with .22 rifles and shotguns. We were lousy hip shots. :)

Both farms backed up on mountains, so we had safe backstops.

John

oneounceload
June 20, 2012, 08:02 AM
And for the previous guy...if you are pointing it, you are aiming it.

Seems ironic you contradicted yourself......:D

Have a nice time making videos, but perhaps you should refrain from calling them Mybusters - the folks who own that copyright might not appreciate that; that is unless you go work for them.....;)

MikeGunz
June 20, 2012, 09:12 AM
I hate when people say "going hot"

zippy13
June 20, 2012, 09:20 AM
zippy13, with regard to smaller shot, three problems...MLeake, your point is well made. I'm well aware of the discussions on the appropriate size for HD pellets, they continue ad nauseam. My concern is with Amsdork's assumption that his aiming techniques will keep all of his pellets in the BG and prevent any collateral damage. I find that absurd.

TheKlawMan
June 20, 2012, 11:52 AM
If anyone wants to bust a myth, what about the one that goes "You don't have to worry about hitting innocents if you aim."

zippy13
June 20, 2012, 12:30 PM
TKM,
Bravo, my friend, I wish I'd thought to say that.

Mike Irwin
June 20, 2012, 12:44 PM
"You can shoot shotgun on your range Mike? Are you talking hip shooting at skeet or something else?"

Well, I've never known a skeet range to have a ceiling....

I'm in Northern Virginia, and a number of the ranges around here have allowed shotguns over the years, but only with slugs or buck shot. This guy was shooting buck shot.


"If you are pointing at something, you are aiming."

I would say no, you are not. Pointing infers general vicinity, while aiming infers precision.

Such as... I'm pointing my handgun at the bad guy. Now I'm aiming my handgun at the bad guy's nose.


"If anyone wants to bust a myth, what about the one that goes "You don't have to worry about hitting innocents if you aim.""

Well, you could film that, but you'd tend to go through a lot of innocents, and they get mighty mad when you shoot them.

zippy13
June 20, 2012, 01:12 PM
...you'd tend to go through a lot of innocents, and they get mighty mad when you shoot them.
Mike, you're bad. :)

Amsdorf
June 20, 2012, 01:59 PM
"If anyone wants to bust a myth, what about the one that goes "You don't have to worry about hitting innocents if you aim.""

I'll let somebody else handle that video, I think it might get a bit costly, in terms of legal fees, and all, not to mention the death penalty potential, for me to get somebody to let me aim at them and others to let me try to hit them too.

:D

oneounceload
June 20, 2012, 02:08 PM
Just get some volunteers from Death Row with the deal if they survive, they get a sentencing deal...... :D

Amsdorf
June 20, 2012, 04:26 PM
Good idea