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jeffg
June 11, 2012, 09:59 PM
I am looking for info on a double barrel shotgun, 16 gauge, hammers,one barrel is stamped 16.1 and the other is 16.5 ; chokes? Anyway I can't find a reference for this and the gun is a " FOREST model '' by WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG. I am looking for year of manufacture, by who, where, possible value, etc.

PetahW
June 12, 2012, 09:30 AM
WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG, founded in 1908, is still in business in Wurzburg, Germany, making sporting rifles, etc.

The proofmarks should help define the year/era your double was made, but from the gauge markings I would WAG that it was made prior to WWI.

Because the barrels are marked "16", and not "16/70" (2-3/4"), it has the older short 2-1/2" or 2-9/16" (65mm) chamber (all fired lengths) - and should NOT be fired with modern 2-3/4" ammo (even though unfired shells will chamber), even so-called "low brass" or target loads.

Proper, low-pressure 2-1/2" shotshells are available today from the likes of RST, PolyWad, Kent, GameBore & others.

The "16.1" (about IC) & 16.5" (about MOD) are the respective barrel's choke constriction measurements.

.

jeffg
June 12, 2012, 12:53 PM
Thanks for responding, the gun seems more modern and I broke the gun down again and found a serial # 21190, also the tubes have other stampings. The first tube is marked 1,350 17,1 16,1 the second is stamped 18,6 17,1 16,5 under the 18,6 is stamped 70 but only on that tube. I will try to find a website for the manufacturer, but didn't have much luck doing a google search.

oneounceload
June 12, 2012, 01:40 PM
The 16, 17 and 18 numbers are bore dimensions in MM.
the 70 is the chamber length
The 1350 is the proof pressure approved for that barrel

It sounds like the barrels were altered and reproofed

16.1 = .633
16.5 = .649
17.1 = .673
18.6 = .732

Since the 16 gauge is a nominal .662, I am wondering about the 18.6, which is a 12 gauge bore diameter

A quick trip to a good gunsmith with a bore gauge can clear this up

jeffg
June 12, 2012, 09:19 PM
will add photo, still looking for any kind of info

mapsjanhere
June 12, 2012, 10:09 PM
Please try to get better pictures of the proof marks, by they look east german to me. Frankonia used to brand DDR and USSR guns.

jeffg
June 12, 2012, 10:26 PM
I will try to repost them tomorrow, I'm sure I can do better, thanks

jeffg
June 13, 2012, 03:20 PM
Better pictures are available, never considered the possibility of being East German? I will post two pictures of hinge plate then three more of barrel hope it helps

jeffg
June 13, 2012, 03:37 PM
here are pictures of barrel, the one is a little blurry

zippy13
June 13, 2012, 04:14 PM
Those are Italian proof-marks!
Perhaps it was re-bored in Italy.

jeffg
June 13, 2012, 07:03 PM
So we have a German barrel but it was proof tested in Italy, is there anyway to tell when this gun was made from the proof marks? This is getting really interesting !

zippy13
June 13, 2012, 07:12 PM
IINM, the "XVI" mark indicates 1960.

jeffg
June 13, 2012, 07:36 PM
I was thinking it was for 16 gauge?

PetahW
June 13, 2012, 07:42 PM
I suspect the "RAG" stamp to be a maker's mark, possibly for the rework.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81966&d=1339618800
.

zippy13
June 13, 2012, 11:18 PM
You might try:
RigArmi / RigArms (RAG) Industria Rino Galesi, Brescia, Italy

zippy13
June 13, 2012, 11:32 PM
I was thinking it was for 16 gauge?
The Italians started using Roman numeral year codes at the end of WWII. I for 1945 until XXX in 1974. Then they switched to a two letter code with AA for 1975. It gets confusing because some combinations are skipped: AF for 1980 and then AH for 1981 (perhaps AG means something nasty in Italian).

jeffg
June 14, 2012, 08:13 PM
So then,we have 1945 plus 15? Okay, I will start looking for Italian makers or gunsmiths. Thanks to all

TheKlawMan
June 15, 2012, 01:41 AM
The chart posted here on SGW agrees with Zippy that XVI the Italian proof code for a date of 1960. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73492

TheKlawMan
June 15, 2012, 01:56 AM
Patriot USA says on this SGW thread that 1190 is the grms the barrel weighs. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=259709

What is the likelihood that the barrels were made in Italy and sold to a German company that assembled the gun or the guns were simply built in Italy and branded by the the German company?

zippy13
June 15, 2012, 10:41 AM
What is the likelihood that the barrels were made in Italy and sold to a German company that assembled the gun or the guns were simply built in Italy and branded by the the German company?
Anything's possible. It could be that the gun was re-barreled in Italy. WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG has been around for over 100-years, but the area was extensively bombed during WWII. After the war, they made sporting rifles based on military actions. I'm guessing they were back in full production by the 1960s. Since the gun is labeled Forest Model, not Wald nor Foresta, I suspect it was made for export to an English speaking market. The OP showed us pics of the barrels, but not close-ups of the receiver's markings. A date mark on the action might help understand this mystery. The gun may have been picked up by a GI who was then transferred to Italy. As I said, anything's possible.

mapsjanhere
June 15, 2012, 11:47 AM
Frankonia is a reseller, not a manufacturer. As such it's a rebranded Italian made gun.

jeffg
June 15, 2012, 09:59 PM
I will post pictures tomorrow of barrels with better details, the gun really is a mystery, and it is definitely well made.

jeffg
June 17, 2012, 10:52 AM
Had to reduce size of pictures to upload but here are some different views of shotgun, still looking for any kind of info, opinions, guesses?

oneounceload
June 17, 2012, 04:53 PM
If it was assembled in Germany, then it would need German proof marks

I still believe the 1350 is the pressure rating as that is a common number seen on these guns and is typically required before barrel weight to be stamped on them - but I have also been wrong before - weighing the barrels will prove or disprove that aspect

I am still wondering about the barrel with the supposed 12 gauge bore size - I can't imagine someone boring out a 16 to 12 - too confusing and the possibility of an OOPS too great

jeffg
June 17, 2012, 09:34 PM
Tomorrow I will weigh the barrel and see how close it is to weighing 1.35 kilograms (which seems light?) and will post result. I'm also confused about the barrel being rebored to a 16 gauge from 12, it seems to me it would be easier to go from 16 to 12, but I'm only guessing on this. Is the barrel entirely German and the rest of the gun Italian or is gun entirely German and just proof tested in Italy?

TheKlawMan
June 18, 2012, 12:26 AM
If you look at the pictures you will see that "Kg" is stamped in front of "1,350". 1,350 is just a hair less than 3 pounds. Would 3 pounds sound about right for this set of barrrels?

As for the "190" shown in one picture, the complete number is depicted in another as "21190 (proof market) RAG". Does this gun have a serial number elsewhere on the receiver and does 21190 match that number or is that the single place where a serial number was stamped?

Here is something about what appears to be an Italian gun some of the same markings on the barrels, even if the barrels appear to be German. The bottom of the barrels is stamped RAG 20866". http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=22288

Here is something else I located from a Greek:

sorry for my english my friend im from greece
i have aRINO GALESI-RIGARMI-BRESCIA TWO BARREL SHOTGUN
THE GUN IS ENGRAVED THE BARRELS IS WRITEN FLUSS STAHL
KRUPP ESSEN AT THE BOTTOM HAS THE MARKS 24830 NITO RAG PSF XVIII
KG 1.375 18.2 17.4
20.3-70 18.2 17.5
THE GUN IS IN VERY VERY GOOD CONDITION IT HAS EXTERNAL HUMMERS AND IT SHOOTS GRATE IN 12 GAUGE

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/i-would-like-to-know-who-have-rino-gallsi-rigarmi-brescia-it...-804064.html

Here, I am thinking that the KG 1.375 is the weight of the barrels and 18.2 is the gauge in mm. Could 17.4 and 17.5 be the respective barrels' inner diameters as constricted? That sounds like a lot to me. What if the 18.2 is the outer diameter of each barrel and 17.4 and 17.2 are there inner diameters as bored?
20.3mm would be the diameter of the chambers and 70mm their length. My Remington 12 gauge hull roughly measures the same.

Using Zippy's date code the barrels were proofed in 1962.

Sloppy me. I just scrolled down and saw the markings on the second barrel of the OP's gun. The barrel pictured at the bottom of the picture, assuming I am correct above, notes the length of the chamber, including room for the opened crimp., to be 70 mm. The 18.6 is the chamber's diameter in millimeters. If the Greek is correct and 20.3mm is 12 gauge, would 18.6mm be a 16 gauge chamber?

Both barrels, carrying my interpretation of the other gun's markings forward, are marked 17.1 for 17.1 mm. The 16.1 and 16.5 are the inner diameters of the barrels at their choke point. The nominal constrictions are 1mm and .6mm or .039" and .024" (which I beleive would be full and modifieds as PetahW writes).

In sum, I think you have a 16 gauge built in Italy in 1962 that takes modern 2-3/4" ammunition. One barrel has a fixed full and the other a fixed modified.

WARNING! This is all my late night rambiling and during the day I don't know what I am talking about. Maybe the guys here can make sense of my jiberish. One thing, DO NOT RELY ON MY THOUGHTS in deciding what to shoot in your gun. Take it to a qualified gunsmith to ensure what it is, what ammo it shoots, and if it is safe to shoot, before firing it.

jeffg
June 18, 2012, 02:03 PM
The barrels do weigh 3 lbs. as suspected, the serial number 21190 is stamped on the receiver and on bottom side of barrel. Thanks for input and references.