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View Full Version : You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun Mythbusting VIDEO


Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 04:41 PM
It's surprising how often I hear people say that the shotgun is the best home defense weapon because...."you don't have to aim it, just point and shoot." This video explains and shows why that is ridiculous, a bit of shotgun mythbusting, if you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsN2AugB5pw

Gunnut17
May 26, 2012, 04:55 PM
I think it is ridiculous to think a shotgun can be used without aiming. If that were true, most shotguns wouldn't be supplied with sights.

But that's not to say it isn't an ideal gun for home defense. it has a lot of knockdown power, and shot is less likely to overpenetrate than a 5.56 or even a 9mm.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 05:00 PM
It is completely ridiculous, but you'd be surprised how many people think you don't have to aim them. Hollywood is forever showing a person blasting away with a shotgun from the hip blowing people away who are 25 yards or more away.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 05:01 PM
Oh, and you are absolutely correct about the home defense/self-defense utility. You hit a person with .00 in their chest and they are going down, for good.

Punch a hole in a person with a 9mm and a 5.56 and you may just really are them mad.

oneounceload
May 26, 2012, 06:03 PM
I have never aimed a shotgun in 35 years - always pointed mine- and yes, there IS a difference. Most shotguns have a bead for a sight - not exactly conducive to good aiming, but it works very well for pointing. Now if you are using it on a stationary target like a deer from a stand, then you would need to replace the bead with a rifle sight and shoot like that; otherwise, I would hardly call a you tube video as definitive mythbusting

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 06:33 PM
Alrighty then...you can call the video, "Why you have to point a shotgun" if that is what makes you happy.

<g>

TheKlawMan
May 26, 2012, 09:14 PM
Amsdorf,

Oneounceload is right. You don't have to aim a shotgun but only point it if you get good with one. In fact, aiming at a flying target will likely result in a miss. If shooting at a stationary target you can get away with aiming and if it is a hard shot it may help. That is not the case in most home defense situations where speed is primary and the target is usually less than 10 yards (and may be moving quickly).

At least that is my understanding, but I am no home defense expert and only a novice clay shooter.

Listen again to what your video guru was saying, which is that you can't just "generally aim" a shotgun. Pointing with a well fit shotgun is anything but generally aiming.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 09:22 PM
Well, good luck with the whole "I don't have to aim a shotgun" in a defensive scenario.

Tell you what, chief, put up a video showing us your awesome "no aim" skills and we'll all be grateful for it.

:cool:

oldguy870
May 26, 2012, 09:26 PM
A shotgun is a close range tool best suited for indoors home defense. So, the 70' example is kind of meaningless. Indoors, a bad guy trying to kill you most likely while moving (you will probably be moving too). A shotgun is best used POINT SHOOTING. You will be fixated on the threat and point shoot. You can point shoot a shotgun accurately at room distances faster than traditional aiming and accurately enough to get the job done which is, incapacitate your attacker before he incapacitates you.

Point shooting, not aiming for a shotgun.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 09:29 PM
Call it whatever you want, you loveable knuckleheads are missing the point, entirely....

Hollywood has convinced people that a shotgun will work just fine simply by praying and spraying.

Call it what you want, "pointing" or "aiming"

You are missing the forest for the trees, bros.

Old Grump
May 26, 2012, 09:30 PM
Born with a pistol in one hand a bag of ammo in the other hand and a rifle slung across my back and all I ever knew was aiming. Got my first shotgun when I was 58 years old and got into it in a real big way. Now I hunt and I practice weekly drills at self defense drills because I have my own range in my front yard and my rifle range in my back yard.

I try the pointing thing that I have read about, seen videos on and been coached at but habit kicks in and while I'm getting better at it I still find myself aiming. That is why my 3 main shotguns have rifle sights on two of them and a scope on the third.

Today I was shooting my 10 gauge and yup I aimed and watched those 18 pellets of 00 blow that gallon milk jug all to pieces. Very satisfying but a tad bit expensive, I guess some of us are maybe a bit to old to get with the pointing program and I will be aiming for the time I have left.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 09:37 PM
Good for you, bro.

We'll leave the fancy-pants stuff to the Internet commandos.

:D

darkgael
May 26, 2012, 09:58 PM
Maybe there is a problem with definitions or with the basics of shotgunning.
The advice "you don't aim a shotgun, you point it", is many years old. There is no myth about it....making the comment true is what gun fit is all about.

Properly fitted and properly mounted, if I point my shotgun where I am looking, it will shoot where I am looking. This is, for me and many others, virtually always a flying target.
Google if you will. there are many examples of real life shooters pointing their shotguns and hitting what they are pointing at. Any video about Trap shooting will show this. Any of the videos about Pat Flanagan breaking multiplem hand thrown targerts will show you a fellow hitting five, six, nine , ten, eleven flying target by pointing, not aiming. There is not enough time to aim.
Pete

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 10:07 PM
Yes, shooting clays is nicely accomplished with loads of bird shot. We are NOT talking about throwing a lot of BBs out there.

What part of this is so hard to understand?

Not to put too fine a point on this, but....

I'm talking about how to get center mass hits with .00 Buckshot, nine pellets from a 12 gauge.

oldguy870
May 26, 2012, 10:16 PM
"Look at me. I made a video."

Dude, you didn't discover gravity. Most people know how buckshot patterns. It is not new.

Kind of a troll like post.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 10:19 PM
Thanks for your comments.

oldguy870
May 26, 2012, 10:29 PM
Please let me know when you "discover" something else and make a video. I would suggest researching the fact that water is wet, explosions make loud noises, and the sun is bright.

Report back.

Gunplummer
May 26, 2012, 10:33 PM
None of you know what you are talking about. I have bow hunted since I was legal to do so, and I never had a sight on a bow in my life. Many a time I killed a deer with out even having a "Weld spot". I had the knock and string away from my face a couple inches and still had good hits. When it comes to guns, there are people out there that can do it. I have "Experts" tell me all the time "Don't take head shots on deer with a rifle." Hey, if you are not up to something don't do it. Leave it to those that can.

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 10:35 PM
Thanks for your comments.

dwaawd
May 26, 2012, 10:55 PM
This for me. Not "just pistol grip only" either:

[url]http://pistol-grip-only-shotgun-technique.com

Amsdorf
May 26, 2012, 11:00 PM
Link is not working.

HALL,AUSTIN
May 26, 2012, 11:17 PM
If yall keep up the arguing this will be closed faster than you would care for. And yes, we get it. A shotgun isnt sprayed from the hip. Thanks. But we are here to spread knowlege and information, not be rude and hateful.

GM2
May 26, 2012, 11:47 PM
Point shooting with shotguns works well in close situations, It's all in training and practice to get good at it. If you are a Duck hunter you have to do the sight thing and learn how to Calculate a lead on moving targets. All that said do what ever it takes for you to become efficient with your shotgun and practice often. To me any type of shooting is not a "one size fits all" thing.

TheKlawMan
May 27, 2012, 04:03 AM
If yall keep up the arguing this will be closed faster than you would care for. And yes, we get it. A shotgun isnt sprayed from the hip. Thanks. But we are here to spread knowlege and information, not be rude and hateful.

I had a comment for Amsdorf until I read this which gets a ++.

One thing I don't understand is why anyone needs to aim at home defense distances of around 10 yards. but likely less, when letting the gun point where I look is good enough for shooting fast moving clay targets at distances of 30 to 40 yards and more.

Dave P
May 27, 2012, 04:59 AM
I dont know who made the video, but it is painful to watch, with all the background shooting.

Amsdorf
May 27, 2012, 07:29 AM
The people in the six other combat pits just would not be quiet and stop shooting their guns. The nerve!!

:)

Dave McC
May 27, 2012, 12:17 PM
This is teetering over The Abyss Of Closedness....

Everyone, POINT or AIM, it's up to you. Base your choice on actual testing, not uninformed opinion, either yours or some guy on the Net.

As for me.....

My HD 870s have peep sights. So do my deer rifle, my muzzle loaders and a fair number of things I used to have. Thousands of rounds have gone towards sundry targets and game guided by my peep sights.

I've also sent lots of lead out of bead sighted shotguns. The one 870 kept ready here with a bead can send some lead out PDQ and do so accurately at house distances.

Make your choice, but please do so after lots of BA/UU/R....

oneounceload
May 27, 2012, 05:11 PM
Call it whatever you want, you loveable knuckleheads are missing the point, entirely....

Hollywood has convinced people that a shotgun will work just fine simply by praying and spraying.

Call it what you want, "pointing" or "aiming"

You are missing the forest for the trees, bros.

And you, sir are missing the rebuttal saying your you tube video isn't all that, but won't admit it

Hollywood does the same thing with any type of "assault weapon", as do the young kids I see at the range - spray and pray seems to be the onl;y option for the Call of Duty crowd

Your first posts mentioned nothing about only using 00 buck, and for those who think that is the only use of a shotgun, well, I will disagree - a shotgun has a great usefulness outside the video game commando scene and the zombie attack zone - too bad most young folks don't seem to get THAT

M4BGRINGO
May 27, 2012, 06:34 PM
I have shot about 100 rounds of 00 Buck and probably about 5K rounds of bird shot since I have started shooting, just over a year ago.

The only time I "aim" a shotgun is when I am shooting static steel.

Amsdorf
May 27, 2012, 08:53 PM
I always welcome constructive criticism and interesting comments, so thanks, guys, for all your remarks.

Jo6pak
May 27, 2012, 09:38 PM
Nice little video.:cool:
I seem to be one of the few that actually watched and understood your point.

Yes, it is obvious to us on this forum that a scattergun must still be aimed (or pointed) at the target. Simply putting the muzzle in the direction of the target doesn't get it done.
But there are many outside the realm of shooitng who believe the hollywood scenarios. Anything that can get real information in those eyes is a good step.

Dave McC
May 28, 2012, 07:09 AM
BTW, Paul, I liked the video.

It does reinforce what I've preached lo these many moons.

We actually have to shoot our shotguns to find out what they, and us, can do under pressure. The odds are low we'll need them, but the stakes are very high.

Double Naught Spy
May 28, 2012, 07:25 AM
I have to admit that after getting my first shotgun, I was disappointed at how easily I could miss.

Oneounceload is right. You don't have to aim a shotgun but only point it if you get good with one. In fact, aiming at a flying target will likely result in a miss.

Whether you aim at a flying target or point at it, you will likely miss if you are talking about a target moving laterally to you. It doesn't matter if you are using a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. This isn't a shotgun issue, but a moving target issue.

Lee Lapin
May 28, 2012, 08:32 AM
Taking a good defensive shotgun class is better than watching all the shotgun videos ever made.

Jo6pak
May 28, 2012, 08:48 AM
^^^Thank you Mr. Obvious:rolleyes:

LSnSC
May 28, 2012, 09:28 AM
Nothing wrong with the video I see. Its very basic info.

Aiming vs pointing... similar but different.
I aim shooting slugs and point for everything else. My shotgun points where I look, so mostly Im looking intently at what I want to hit. Works with birdshot or buckshot, on game, clays or steel plates.

FWIW, with a shotgun, if you are consciously doing mental calculations for lead, on a moving target , you missing ALOT.

Amsdorf
June 5, 2012, 09:00 AM
Well said, thanks.

darkgael
June 5, 2012, 09:24 AM
Whether you aim at a flying target or point at it, you will likely miss if you are talking about a target moving laterally to you. It doesn't matter if you are using a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. This isn't a shotgun issue, but a moving target issue.
Hmmm. Tell that to the guys shooting Trap and Skeet and running 25-50-75-100 straight.....at least some of those targets are moving laterally.

About the differences of opinion regarding terminology....it was an easy argument to get into. Nothing in the OP referred to a HD situation using a buckshot load.....the qualifications/clarifications came later on.
I do agree that there are many folk who believe that all one has to do is face in the general direction of a target and the gun will do all the work. There are plenty shooters and non-shooters both, who do not understand shotguns or shotgunning as well as they should. The statement quoted, no offense meant, is an example as is the earlier comment about shotguns being primarily tools for HD. Maybe for some folk but as a generality, not so.

icedog88
June 5, 2012, 11:24 AM
In the video, which group of shots were the un-aimed? I must have missed the comparison part.

UnbearablePanda
June 5, 2012, 11:33 AM
Well Bob Munde does in a video where he can aim perfectly with hip fire. But, as well with a single action trigger. So give or take become a pro 12 world record champion and then go ahead and hip fire.

Amsdorf
June 5, 2012, 01:46 PM
In the video, none are unaimed, they are all aimed, as the video notes.

The point being to show that a shotgun:

(1) Must be aimed.
(2) Will not put out some sort of hail of lead while being fired Rambo style from the hip.

Even at the longest distance, the pattern is still all on the piece of paper.

icedog88
June 5, 2012, 01:58 PM
That's kinda my point. If you want to show the difference between the two, should you not also show the other half of the argument? All I see in the video is a target where I have to assume the shotgun is being aimed, and ending up on paper. Since the video is supposed to debunk a myth of not aiming a shotgun, should we not be able to see the difference between aimed and pointed?

PeterGreg
June 5, 2012, 02:08 PM
Aiming vs pointing... similar but different.
I aim shooting slugs and point for everything else. My shotgun points where I look, so mostly Im looking intently at what I want to hit. Works with birdshot or buckshot, on game, clays or steel plates.

FWIW, with a shotgun, if you are consciously doing mental calculations for lead, on a moving target , you missing ALOT

+1 field shooting and killing things can expand one's understanding of how to use a shotgun, it's not just a musket redux

darkgael
June 5, 2012, 03:01 PM
I understand "aiming" to mean using the sights on the firearm. As far as shotguns are concerned, I understand "pointing" to mean properly mounting a gun that fits me, looking at my prospective target while at the same time pointing the gun at that target. I may not look at the bead at all....especially on a close flushing grouse.
I just finished looking at a series of videos of Pat Flanigan and Ton Knapp shooting exhibitions and hitting everything that they look at.....gun upside down, from the hip, over the head, one handed, etc. They ain't using the sights. They are hitting.
Pete

TheKlawMan
June 5, 2012, 03:43 PM
Is it even correct to say that clay shooters, and I suppose wing shooters which is something that I have zero experience with, point instead of aiming? If the gun fits and I mount it correctly it points where I look; meaning I don't even point but just look and if my head is locked on the stock the gun points where I look.

queg
June 5, 2012, 03:55 PM
So then, the guy in the video was "pointing", not aiming?

johnbt
June 5, 2012, 04:31 PM
"Whether you aim at a flying target or point at it, you will likely miss if you are talking about a target moving laterally to you."

Completely true, no arguing with it. The key words being "at it", with it being the laterally moving target. The gun has to be pointing at where the target will be when the pellets finally get there.

Back to the example of the garden hose. Have a child run across the yard from left to right. Assuming the kid isn't just 10 feet away, if you are pointing or aiming the hose at the child the water will always be behind because the target is moving. You have to aim ahead.

Stevie-Ray
June 6, 2012, 06:17 PM
This is teetering over The Abyss Of Closedness....:D Haven't seen that one before, Dave, that's great!

I think what Amsdorf is getting at is that he's sick of hearing things like,"Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim" when somebody asks about home defense. If you say you've never seen or heard that you're probably not being truthful. We all know about "pointing" a shotgun for clays. As for me, I'm not very good at it, due to cross-dominance, and inside a house if I have to shoot somebody (God forbid) and I just point it in their direction, I may or may not hit them. No such thing as "Can't miss" in HD distances. My 930 SPX has wonderful sights that excell in this type of instance, and I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.

PawPaw
June 6, 2012, 06:32 PM
Call it whatever you want, you loveable knuckleheads are missing the point, entirely....

Hollywood has convinced people that a shotgun will work just fine simply by praying and spraying.

Call it what you want, "pointing" or "aiming"

You are missing the forest for the trees, bros.

Yeah, we get it, but we don't think you understand shotgunning. Of course, you have to be sure of your points, but rifles are aimed and shotguns are pointed, simply because on a standard shotgun you don't have a rear sight. The vast majority of shotguns are pointed, and stock fit is everything on a shotgun. If the stock doesn't fit, you're simply not going to be able to hit with it with any consistency.

My patrol shotgun is equipped with rifle sights, my sporting shotguns have only a mid and front bead. Two different arrangements for two different situations.

Amsdorf
June 6, 2012, 06:36 PM
I think what Amsdorf is getting at is that he's sick of hearing things like,"Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim" when somebody asks about home defense. If you say you've never seen or heard that you're probably not being truthful. We all know about "pointing" a shotgun for clays. As for me, I'm not very good at it, due to cross-dominance, and inside a house if I have to shoot somebody (God forbid) and I just point it in their direction, I may or may not hit them. No such thing as "Can't miss" in HD distances. My 930 SPX has wonderful sights that excell in this type of instance, and I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.

BINGO!!!!!

The video is about shooting a shotgun for home defense, not shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot loads.

TheKlawMan
June 6, 2012, 07:13 PM
Give it a rest, Amsdorf. Even Stevie Ray's quote implies that point and shoot is fine for HD if you can use the techique and he will if he can master it with his cross-domonance.

I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.

If Dave McC aims there must be a benefit to it for HD purposes, but I suspect he is so well practiced that he is on target instantly regarless of what he does. I am no were that good and admit that if a target presentation is suited for aiming I think I would aim using the bead fron sight on my 870. However, just because a target presents itself in a small room does not mean you have a lot of time to take "aim". In the former situation you could have a BG crouched down behind some furnitue and in the other he is running across a great room towards a family member.

oneounceload
June 6, 2012, 07:28 PM
I think what Amsdorf is getting at is that he's sick of hearing things like,"Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim" when somebody asks about home defense. If you say you've never seen or heard that you're probably not being truthful. We all know about "pointing" a shotgun for clays. As for me, I'm not very good at it, due to cross-dominance, and inside a house if I have to shoot somebody (God forbid) and I just point it in their direction, I may or may not hit them. No such thing as "Can't miss" in HD distances. My 930 SPX has wonderful sights that excell in this type of instance, and I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.

BINGO!!!!!

The video is about shooting a shotgun for home defense, not shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot loads.

No BINGO, not at all, I can point my HD shotgun just as well for HD as I can my target gun for flying targets as it also has no rear sights except for my eyes........THAT is the point many miss.....and why so many seem to "need" to add all these other sights - my guess is because for most, the only gun they ever fired previously that wasn't part of a video game was the standard issue military rifle

I see it all the time in some of these supposed "training" videos where everyone is scrunched up on the stock like it was a M4 and their stance to firing is the same as someone firing a rifle, NOT someone who knows how to fire a shotgun - we see that especially all the time at the club - someone standing perpendicular to the target line like they would if holding a rifle for hi-power shooting

poor training and poor practice equals poor habits and poor results

Drummer101
June 6, 2012, 10:02 PM
First time I shot clays at the club I was told to stop looking like I was using a rifle.

icedog88
June 7, 2012, 06:51 AM
The Mossberg 590s issued to us had peep sight rear, blade sight front. As instructed, we only used them to aim past 15 yds with slugs.

Dave McC
June 7, 2012, 02:50 PM
Thanks, Stevie Ray. Be advised I'm cross dominant. It took some time and effort, but I worked through it.

For newer shooters, I advise shooting from the side your dominant eye, not hand, is on.

I'm starting a new thread on pointing vs aiming.....

Amsdorf
June 8, 2012, 04:08 AM
Just a note...

Shooting a shotgun in a home defense situation with 00 Buck is not the same as shooting clay birds with bird shot.

You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.

icedog88
June 8, 2012, 07:11 AM
You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.

Thanks, but I'll stick to what works for me. :)

rbernie
June 8, 2012, 07:32 AM
Shooting a shotgun in a home defense situation with 00 Buck is not the same as shooting clay birds with bird shot.
In what ways?

I've shot a lot of shells downrange in clay games, 'poke shooting' at critters in the field, and in range training for HD scenarios. In all of that, I'm not sure that I ever really felt that one required a markedly different behavior than the other. In fact, my opinion has traditionally been that field work is MORE useful for skill building than just about anything else. I'm curious as to your experiences and how they differ between clays, bird, and HD training.

The Mossberg 590s issued to us had peep sight rear, blade sight front. As instructed, we only used them to aim past 15 yds with slugs.
My walkabout 870's sport 21" rifle sight barrels; they point just fine for wing shooting (I rarely see the front sight anyway) and they give an option for fine sighting when using slugs.

I actually use the RS barrels to verify proper mount and alignment when shouldering the shotgun more than I actually use them to good use in the field. :)

Amsdorf
June 8, 2012, 01:13 PM
Differences between home defense with 00Buck and shooting at clay:


You are shooting at pieces of clay, not people.
You are not under the stress of defending yourself and/or your family.
Nobody is shooting back.
You are shooting birshot, not 00Buck.
You are not in a house where you must put the 00 on target or risk killing somebody else
You are not under high stress where your "instinctive" shooting/pointing skills will be seriously degraded.
You will be shooting far fewer pieces of lead, and they must all be on target, each time, every time.


Those are a few of the differences.

oneounceload
June 8, 2012, 04:05 PM
Those have nothing to do with pointing versus aiming - if the BG is moving quickly through your house, then pointing will be the way to get your gun on target

PeterGreg
June 8, 2012, 05:40 PM
You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.

my defensive shotgun is my upland/deer/turkey gun I'm too poor for specialty shotguns or maybe too stupid I'm not sure.

TheKlawMan
June 8, 2012, 07:24 PM
Amsdorf,

You are quick to make definitive statemets about the effects of stress in Home Defense versus Shooting Clays.

Have you ever fired a weapon in an actual close quarters home defense/urban combat situation?

What is your essential experience with the stress of clay shooting?

Amsdorf
June 8, 2012, 08:48 PM
"The stress of clay shooting."

:eek:

TheKlawMan
June 8, 2012, 09:00 PM
Amsdorf,

I see you sidestepped my question about whether you had actual close quarters combat or home defense experience. I assume that means you have none.

You also sidestepped the question about slay shooting stress. While it is of another type, I beleive an experience clay shooter would know the stress of sitting on a perfect score while trying to focus on each shot one at a time. So now it seems that you don't know experience withclays or urban armed combat.

You type well.:rolleyes:

Troll on. . . .

zippy13
June 8, 2012, 09:18 PM
"The stress of clay shooting."
:eek:
Yep, they frown on practicing on people. Flying clays are a little better training than static paper circles.
The last time you were in a major competition where you were 99-straight in a 100-target event, and that final target meant the difference between champ and chump, weren't you a little stressed? Most folks are.

Dave McC
June 8, 2012, 09:59 PM
And so this thread goes failing and falling into The Abyss of Closedness.

Sheesh!!!

shortwave
June 8, 2012, 10:19 PM
Well before it gets closed...let me slide in here and say the only time I aim my shotgun is when shooting slugs at deer. Shooting shot, it's point shooting...including many types of small game hunting and running combat course's done mostly in the past.

If this threads done nothing else, it's reminded me how fun running the course's used to be. Time for a refresher course. ;)

71Eagle
June 8, 2012, 10:55 PM
If you're on the skeet, trap or SC range and you look at your front sight you're going to miss because you just stopped your swing. I've watched new shooter's barrels stop, go, stop go, because they take their eyes off the target. Stop your swing and you miss.

As far as home invasion, that's a whole different thing, comparing apples to oranges IMO. I've never had to do it, but I have shot a couple slugs at a target once and I had plenty of time to get my head on the gun, look at the front bead and then focused on the target and hit it dead center. That was in a college CJ class and the target was at 25m.

I deer hunt with a rifle and don't turkey hunt so I wont express an opinion on aiming vs pointing there.

Stevie-Ray
June 9, 2012, 12:15 AM
And so this thread goes failing and falling into The Abyss of Closedness.

Sheesh!!!http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/GitchiManitou/Vacations%20and%20Wanderings/hysterical.gif Yeah, I guess it's countdown to curtains, though we tried. Thanks for the words of encouragement.;)

TheKlawMan
June 9, 2012, 03:47 AM
If it helps I apologize for implying that Amdorf is a troll and will try to play nice.

icedog88
June 9, 2012, 06:29 AM
If it helps I apologize for implying that Amdorf is a troll and will try to play nice.

I don't think it's unfair to call someone to the Quarterdeck to ask his qualifications after giving his opinions as fact. I am curious as to how these conclusions were reached as well. If we need to aim over barrels, why do double barrels have one bead in the center??;)

Amsdorf
June 9, 2012, 10:26 AM
In spite of the, let us say, sometime churlish nature of some of our comments, I do think it has been a healthy debate.

I do not think we can hope to convince clay shooters that home defense with 00 Buck is comparable, and I do not think they can convince us that it is.

I've shot a lot of sporting clays, with a lot of really great shotguns, but I do not regard this to be the same as putting 00 Buck on target in a home defense scenario.

My defense shotgun has a ghost ring and front post, and in the video, it is this sighting system I was using to get the buckshot to stay on paper, in fact, stay in a 6" circle at 25 feet.

In a defense situation, that's the kind of MOBG* I want on the target.

And regardless of what we think we can, or can't do, or aim or point or shoot the shotgun hanging upside down while spitting nickels, I think we all agree that putting the 00 Buck on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want.

* = Minute of Bad Guy.

zippy13
June 9, 2012, 12:20 PM
This video has bothered me from the beginning. Yes, it shows the firepower of a shotgun. But, it never address aiming vs pointing nor not aiming at all. The shooter claims he's aiming every shot; but, if it were a true test there would also be someone else who was pointing a shotgun, and we could compare the results.

It's not even a good video to give us an idea of pattern spread with respect distance because all of the distances referenced are approximate. And we don't have a clue about how well the shooter estimates distances. Nor is it an example of how different chokes might change pattern sizes.

I think my basic problem is the tread's claim to be "mythbusting" -- for me this didn't even come close to happening. I think I have a different idea about the myth than the OP does. He claims the myth is something like: "Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim." My take on the myth is: "If your not an experienced shooter, your chances are better with a shotgun than a rifle or handgun." Who in their right mind would believe a shotgun will magically hit its target? Of course, you have to aim/point at the target.

I was curious, why the provocative, and possibly misleading title? I did notice, before I could watch the video, I had to sit through a commercial, and where there's internet ads, there's money involved. Then, I looked at the OP's TFL posting history, and it's almost exclusively in the nature of, "Look at the video I just posted." Are we the victims of subtle spam?

Amsdorf
June 9, 2012, 01:17 PM
Well, thanks for watching, Zippy.

zippy13
June 9, 2012, 01:24 PM
More than once :)

TheKlawMan
June 9, 2012, 03:25 PM
Yes, Amsdorf, we agree that the putting the hit on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want. I do not agree, though, as many do not agree that you need to or should use 00B. That depends to some degree on the individuals situation.

I do admit that I only practiced one day with buck and slugs and do not pretend to have learned that much in a couple of hours. The range officer giving me some advice, and when he learned of a mutual acquainance he took a great deal of interest in showing me the ropes, had be blasting away with an 870 short barrel at a silhouette target from 10 yards with 00b and slugs. The drill was to take my safety of as the gun comes up from waist level and to shoot as soon as I get a cheed weld with the breifest look at the bead.


Those lucky enough to live in rural environments with some land may have situations where home defense coujld include a longer shot, but it is hard to imagine the need to take a shot much beyond 10 yards in my suburban area.


I am a crappy shot, but all of my buck was in the black and my slugs were withing an inch of my poa. I didn't just shoot individual shots but pumped and refired as fast as possible for effect.

That was back when I had no more than 300 clay shots down range. I am still a crappy shooter, but have somewhere in excess of 8,000 clay attempts and beleive I have improved with that "game" a little.

But you do have me thinking that I should revisit the rifle range where I can get some practice in with Buck and Slugs, as well as this new fangled Ultimate Home Defense stuff with the high density BBs. While my primary load is that stuff, I have an ample supply of 00B and slugs in case all hell were to break lose.

Stevie-Ray
June 9, 2012, 03:33 PM
Who in their right mind would believe a shotgun will magically hit its target? Of course, you have to aim/point at the target. Obviously, you haven't seen some of the people applying for CPLs in my state. (Agree that this is probably the norm for ANY state.) Some of the people that were in my original class were shocking with their ignorance. We could tell they were being told BS outside of class, and were taking it as gospel, not to mention their total incompetence with their own weapons. I have to wonder how many of them gave up on the idea of using a handgun and bought a shotgun "because they couldn't miss." I have proven to myself many times by my small patterns at 7 yards that in HD distances you damn sure WILL miss if you haven't pointed/aimed that thing well enough. I submit that, pointing at a clay pigeon 30 yards away with target load invites a much bigger pattern, and a better chance of hitting with something. YMMV.

TheKlawMan
June 9, 2012, 04:01 PM
I submit that, pointing at a clay pigeon 30 yards away with target load invites a much bigger pattern, and a better chance of hitting with something.

A better chance of hitting compared to what, hitting a stationary or slow moving target at a third the distance?

Sure, Stevie-Ray, your pattern at 30 yards is larger than at 10. It may be 30" in diameter depending on choke, but that 4+ inch target is still moving at a pretty good clip and often requires more than a single hit to break the clay. Then you have variables such as angles, wind gusts, leads.

Isn't the horse dead yet?

Stevie-Ray
June 9, 2012, 04:31 PM
Sure, Stevie-Ray, your pattern at 30 yards is larger than at 10. It may be 30" in diameter depending on choke, but that 4+ inch target is still moving at a pretty good clip and often requires more than a single hit to break the clay. Then you have variables such as angles, wind gusts, leads.Yeah, you're right, as I have said I pretty much suck at shotgunning games. But I do shoot a lot at HD distances. I'm just saying that taking "you can't miss" at face value is a dangerous thing, considering patterns at 7 yards or less-I found that out with my first few shots years ago. I also know personally 3 people that have only a shotgun for HD and have never fired them. Since 2 out of 3 of those people have normal 870s, their patterns are going to be even tighter than mine. Likely victims of "Here, buy this. You can't miss with it." I never asked, just a guess.

People that truly "can't miss" with a shotgun have all my respect. But most of them have been doing it for a long time. Don't ever try to sell a shotgun to somebody with that line within earshot of me, as it's a true pet peeve of mine. Stick a fork in me.

zippy13
June 9, 2012, 04:33 PM
Stevie-Ray, I find it hard to swallow that the folks in your state believe in magic, but they may be misinformed about how shotguns pattern. With respect to shooting at HD distances, consider Skeet's Station-8 where, with proper pointing, targets are routinely ink-balled at less than 7-yards. Yes, it takes training (not magic) since the pattern has developed very little at that distance.

I think we can all agree, if you're going to use a firearm for HD, get more training than just video games and watching YouTube. How many times do we see members' proud pictures of their HD guns that exhibit no signs of wear?

TheKlawMan
June 9, 2012, 05:44 PM
I do little Skeet, but I love station 8 even if it seems intimidating until you do it and I am far from being a "decent shot".

Amsdorf
June 9, 2012, 05:50 PM
"I think we can all agree, if you're going to use a firearm for HD, get more training than just video games and watching YouTube. How many times do we see members' proud pictures of their HD guns that exhibit no signs of wear?"


I try to clean the blood and guts off mine before I make a YouTube video. Next time I'll bring it au naturel so to speak.

:eek:

TheKlawMan
June 9, 2012, 07:40 PM
I try to clean the blood and guts off mine before I make a YouTube video. Next time I'll bring it au naturel so to speak.

So that was your video and Zippy was correct that we had been spammed.