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View Full Version : Brand new guy here but long time milsurp collector


mtbikerwvu
May 13, 2012, 10:45 AM
Like I said, I am a newbie to this forum and wanted to say hello. I am a collector of wayward milsurps and I like to call them my misfit toys. I enjoy restoring and getting them back into shape. My most recent purchase is a Enfield No.4 Mk1 T with a missing No.32 scope which I will find. I try to collect a wide variety of arms but try to stay in the WWI and II time period.


http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3037.jpg


This rifle is only 2 days old in my collection so any information and or questions just jump in.:)

Tidewater_Kid
May 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
Nice looking rifle! Who made it?

TK

mtbikerwvu
May 13, 2012, 11:29 AM
M47C BSA Shirley 1944

Tikirocker
May 13, 2012, 09:49 PM
Do you have a TR stamp on the left wrist beneath the serial numbers, a T stamp near the ejector screw and does your serial number begin with a 3?

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 13, 2012, 11:37 PM
Yep it is all correct except for the scope.

Tikirocker
May 13, 2012, 11:52 PM
So yes to all three items?

madcratebuilder
May 14, 2012, 06:58 AM
Welcome to the forum.

Nice looking (T). If you are contemplating buying one of the repro No32's I wouldn't. They look OK on a wall hanger but they do not track well. Wait till you find a real No32. You can get them rebuilt, there are a few old Brit armors around that offer this service.

Warren Wheatfield rebuilt mine, and it has been very usable, tracking is great. He de-laminated the lens and polished them, greatly improving clarity. Adjustments are firm and positive.

Serial number should start with a letter, not a number, like B310XX.

1944 No4 Mk1 (T) BSA
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/Enfields/finished01.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/Enfields/finished02.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 07:30 AM
LOL, yes to all 3.:rolleyes: and yep, I will wait for a real No.32 scope to come along. Yours looks awesome! Yes the serial number begins with both a letter prefix and the number 3.:)

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 07:34 AM
How hard are No.32 scopes to find in original working condition? I must admit the reproductions are tempting but I will wait for the right one.:D

Tikirocker
May 14, 2012, 07:44 AM
Good to hear ... the reason I asked is because these rifles are prone to being faked, assuming you did your own due diligence.

Here's mine I restored from a barreled action ... 1944 BSA + No32 Mk1 with Case STG TEL No8 + Transit Chest + kit ...

http://i53.tinypic.com/pum44.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2ik5o9l.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/1zgni9.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2r7ssna.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2zfsopk.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2qny6pv.jpg

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 08:24 AM
Yes I would like to eventually put it back to a full kit. I am starting to begin the search for the items I will need. Thanks!

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 08:29 AM
I could sure use experts advice to find it all along the way. Is it easier to find parts and pieces in countries that used the Enfield as their main battle rifle? :D

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 08:32 AM
http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3040.jpg

Tikirocker
May 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
Serial number should start with a letter, not a number, like B310XX.


Crate ...

I asked if the Serial number started with a 3 ... the letter prefix is not a number and is largely irrelevant to identifying BSA No4T's. It is the first number of the series that is key to their identity, that being more often than not, the number 3.

A serial number can have a letter prefix, but the letter prefix is not a number, it is merely part of the serial series. You will note also the Serial numbers on my No8 case match the correct number format for a No4T; ie, B33279. This was the tenor of my question ...

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:44 AM
My serial # is P367XX and is a M47c T with a TR on the socket. :)

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:47 AM
http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3040.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:48 AM
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3040.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:50 AM
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3039.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:52 AM
http://http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3038.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 11:53 AM
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3038.jpg

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 12:00 PM
So, here is the obvious issues, wrong scope, wrong sling but a really cool 1914 dated web sling. Needs a 1907 sling. I have the bayonet and cleaning kit stored in the butt of the rifle. No scabbard. Upper wrist area where the scope serial number would be is just the letter H. Seems odd but I have see a few others with no marked serial numbers in that area. The star cartouche on the lower wrist I think signifies a arsenal rebuild at some point. The scope mount bracket serial number is off from the gun but was also told and read that these could be swapped during rebuild and not renumbered. All and all, just a very neat, tight, and clean gun.

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 12:03 PM
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t415/mtbikerwvu/IMG_3036.jpg

Tikirocker
May 14, 2012, 06:51 PM
The star with the W inside it is the Weedon Depot repair mark - at some point the stock, if original to the rifle, went through the Weedon system in England. I have rifles that also bear the Weedon mark.

If the stock is original to the rifle you should have an S56 stamp on the underside of the butt stock. You should also have scope serial numbers stamped on the topside of the butt stock nearest the wrist. If you remove the butt stock, you should also see a second set of numbers on the top of the socket itself, these numbers are the serial numbers for the rifle.

So the serial numbers on your receiver match the serial numbers on the stock pictured, or not?

Tiki.

Amsdorf
May 14, 2012, 07:06 PM
great stuff, welcome aboard!

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 07:07 PM
Yep, the stock and the receiver match. Also good to know that I can find a scope serial number in other places but I suppose the odds of finding the matching scope is a billion to one.

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 07:09 PM
Is there a pattern out there for building your own transit box? :confused:

Tikirocker
May 14, 2012, 09:07 PM
No patterns perse', somebody posted something up in one of the Enfield forums ages ago but I have no idea where it was now. It was the dimensions for the No4 transit box. A bloke in my neck of the woods makes replica's that look spot on, but I like having an original and that is what I have.

Another question ... does your butt stock bear the S51 stamp on the heel? There are reasons to ask this because serial numbers can be faked and stamped onto rifle stocks but there are some stamps that have a special font, that can't be duplicated unless you have those armorers stamps. The S51 stamp has the S in sans serif ... if you don't have this stamp then it is likely your stock isn't legit.

To clarify before ... the scope number will be on the top of the butt stock near the wrist, the rifle serial number should be on the top of the butt stock socket when removed. So you can check if this stock is original or not by removing the butt stock and checking the socket is stamped with the rifles serial number. Only No4T's are like this, so if there is nothing there, you don't have an original No4T stock. Odds of finding the matching scope, remote.

EDIT - Looking at the image of the butt stock you posted, I can't see the important S51 stamp at all. Can you post a clearly picture showing the middle section of the butt stock underside + heel?

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 14, 2012, 10:58 PM
Nothing in the metal of the butt socket and nothing on the wood area that fits up into the socket. The heel wood has some damage just before the buttplate but I can tell there was a stamp there prior to the damage. The gun seems legit to me but I am sure it has been through refurb at some point. I am beginning to think it might be a rifle that was never paired with a scope originally. Thanks for the help Tiki!

Tikirocker
May 14, 2012, 11:16 PM
If you have nothing on the socket area then that butt stock isn't legit, flat out. All No4T rifles that went through Holland & Holland, whether they passed muster or not, would have had the stocks serial numbered in those specific locations, they would still be clear and visible to this day. If you don't have those markings, there is no way that stock is original to the rifle.

Can you post detailed pics of the top of the butt stock near the receiver, and the socket itself when removed? At best the butt stock may be a replacement, even if the fore-end is original. Also, I can see clearly that the heel does not bear the S51 mark where it should be so, it really is no dice on the butt.

Tiki.

madcratebuilder
May 15, 2012, 07:52 AM
I asked if the Serial number started with a 3 ... the letter prefix is not a number and is largely irrelevant to identifying BSA No4T's. It is the first number of the series that is key to their identity, that being more often than not, the number 3.

A serial number can have a letter prefix, but the letter prefix is not a number, it is merely part of the serial series. You will note also the Serial numbers on my No8 case match the correct number format for a No4T; ie, B33279. This was the tenor of my question ...

Come on Tiki, you know the 'serial number' includes 'any' perfix or suffix, but I did know what you were getting at.

If the stock is original to the rifle you should have an S56 stamp on the underside of the butt stock.

Typo? It well be marked S51 under the comb (bottom)



Nothing in the metal of the butt socket and nothing on the wood area that fits up into the socket.

Butt stock has been replaced at one time, not unheard of.
There's a guy in BC, Canada that builds transit chests and sells them on evil bay and at http://www.milsurps.com. Evil bay has original No32's often, study to pic's well, there are fakes. Expect to pay up to $1500 and another 4-600 to have it rebuilt.


The gun seems legit to me but I am sure it has been through refurb at some point. I am beginning to think it might be a rifle that was never paired with a scope originally.

The rifle certainly appears legit to me. The staking of the pad screws looks legit. It is possible this rifle was not mated to a scope at H&H. Interesting it went through Weldon Arsenal.

Tikirocker
May 15, 2012, 09:25 AM
Crate,

S51 indeed ... typo for sure, you can see I typed S51 in other places. Seems you caught the bug from me below - you want Weedon, not Weldon. ;)

Interesting it went through Weldon Arsenal.

I made the point about the serial number because you seemed to have missed the point of my question - of course I know a full serial has a prefix, but I was asking whether the numerical series started with that all important 3.

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 15, 2012, 10:27 AM
With a screen name like mad crate builder, you ought to be the guy building the transit cases. LOL I am a cabinet builder by trade and want to find plans or detailed pics and measurements to try one of my own. The gun is getting me kind of bummed but I hope to keep up with it.

Tikirocker
May 15, 2012, 10:50 AM
Don't be bummed, for me the rifle is the barreled action - Enfield stocks were frequently replaced through FTR programs or when returned to store at depot repair, such as Weedon. It is only a major concern for collectors who want a completely original rifle, from boots to braces. I would still be very proud to have that rifle in my collection, seek out a No32 scope for it, get it on there, get the right sling and scope caps and be happy.

Tiki.

mtbikerwvu
May 15, 2012, 12:16 PM
decided to sell it for $900 call me if interested 406-208-3405

madcratebuilder
May 16, 2012, 07:13 AM
The fact that your (T) is not a cookie cutter (T) makes it more interesting. Don't give up so soon. It may well have some interesting history behind it.

mtbikerwvu
May 16, 2012, 07:45 AM
Well it is still here and hasn't gone anywhere yet.

mtbikerwvu
May 16, 2012, 07:49 AM
@Madcrate me and the family were just in Oregon over Easter for a vacation, had a great time. On the coast in Yachats. Actually found a really nice little gun shop there along the highway. Very small but very friendly folks at that store.

madcratebuilder
May 17, 2012, 07:47 AM
That's a nice area. Just did a three day mini vacation near there last week. Many of the hardware stores over there still sell guns. Prices can run high, they are trolling for rich valley folks.