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Jerry45
May 12, 2012, 01:49 PM
I’ve searched and can’t find anything that covers this particular produce and yes I know bedding has been talked to death but I have a couple of simple question. Has anyone used JB Weld “stick” (not the two parts in tubes but the putty roll you knead together) for a bedding ? If so how has it worked or not worked?

animal
May 12, 2012, 07:55 PM
Nope, and I wouldn’t even try it. It’s too thick, IMO. More importantly, there's no fiber reinforcement. The strength of the bedding material comes from the fiber ... especially important in the thin areas ... the epoxy stick material is brittle in a thin layer.
The object, when making fiberglass-like material strong is to have the highest fiber to bonding material ratio possible. I've been known to pull a vacuum on many projects ... to remopve both air and excess resin.

There are plenty of products made for doing the job and making things easier. Brownells has some good stuff.
The last few times I bedded a stock, I used carbon fiber in an epoxy resin. The resin was made by West Systems … but that was only because I had the fiber scraps and resin left over from other projects.

Jerry45
May 12, 2012, 09:29 PM
I was thinking that the putty would make for a cleaner easier application but I also thought it may be too thick. This will be my first attempt at bedding. I have no doubt I can do the work necessary just not sure of the best material to use. I don’t want to use fiberglass it's way too messy and way too hard to work. I’ve worked with it in the past for other jobs. I watched a video of a fellow bedding using Devcon. I used Devcon many years ago for metal repair and it didn’t have any fiber in it so I didn’t even think about using fiber in the bedding material. While I was waiting for a reply I looked at ACRAGLAS GEL on Brownell’s. Do you know if it contains fiber? I also thought about using regular JB Weld. I’ve worked with it quite a bit, but it doesn’t contain fiber either. I have some fiberglass cloth I can cut up for fiber material if I need to add it to the ACROGLASS GEL or “regular two part” (in tubes) JB Weld. Your help/advice is appreciated!

animal
May 12, 2012, 09:53 PM
Acraglas has a built-in "fiber". As it cures, it forms a lattice structure at the molecular level. It becomes it's own fiber, so to speak ... For added strength, metal or other particles/fibers can be mixed with it. … but you don’t need that for a standard bedding job. Used straight will do just fine.

Some stick epoxies also contain fiber but not all fiber is equal. Without going into strength, length, types, etc … of fibers and bonding agents that work with them … cause it even bores me silly … I’ll just say that I dunno what the JB Stick has in it, but have used it (on non-gun stuff) … and thin layers were prone to crack.

EDIT : Looked up JB stick .. It's steel filled ... a decent product for some things, by the way. I prefer Propoxy, but can't always find it.
Also looked up Acraglas. I don't think I was too misleading about it. It's the stuff I was thinking about when I mentioned Brownells.

TrailBlazinMan
May 12, 2012, 11:40 PM
There are several types of Acraglas. The Gel when made up is very thick and needs no reinforcing. The regular Acraglas is running. If you feel the overwhelming need to bed with some fiberglass cloth, you will need to use the runny Acraglas because the gel will not penetrate the cloth.

Is this just a regular bedding job or are you trying to strengthen a lightweight stock?

animal
May 13, 2012, 12:39 AM
Just reread the thread. .JB weld won’t penetrate fiberglass cloth.

What TrailBlazinMan said is right. The gel will not penetrate cloth either. Also, there’s the liquid (which will penetrate cloth).

When I said Acraglas, I was talking about the gel. To get fiber into the gel, it has to be chipped up fairly fine and mixed with the gel before you use the hardener. Dunno about fiberglass, but kevlar and carbon mix in well. I don’t see why fiberglass wouldn’t work because epoxy resins tend to work with anything, but there’s no real advantage to doing it … kevlar and carbon will NOT work with polyester resins (the usual stuff sold as fiberglass resin)

Other guys will have better advise. I have a tendency towards overkill. If you’re just needing a spacer, most of this stuff about fiber and such is not needed. JB weld by itself might even work? I wouldn't do it ... but ... Don't try to use it with cloth, though.

mapsjanhere
May 13, 2012, 08:24 AM
As your typical bedding material is loaded in compression while shooting, the fiber reinforcement contributes very little to the strength of the material. It's main part is a as crack arrester, and for that the steel particles in the JB weld work just fine. If you can get your hand on a piece of carbon fiber fabric and cut it into 1/8th inch length short fibers, that makes a great random orientation reinforcement (wear a dust mask!). Grinding it in an old coffee mill works great too.

Jerry45
May 13, 2012, 09:29 AM
Thanks for all the information guys. Good Stuff! And it's greatly appreciated. :)

Unclenick
May 13, 2012, 09:43 AM
To add to what Mapsjanhere said, Brownells Steel Bed is all micronized stainless filler. Bisonite, which was preferred by service rifle armorers for years, also lacks fiber. Epoxy resins often have plasticizers in them these days to prevent cracking rather than depending on fiber. West Systems G-flex epoxy is a prime example.

A good rule of thumb with any of them is just not to let them get thinner than about 0.005" for best strength. That's a second reason (in addition to grip) that you inlet the stock for them rather than just smearing them on the surface. The main plus to the steel fillers, in addition to ruggedness, is to bring the linear temperature expansion of the cured epoxy mass closer to that of the gun steel to reduce differential shape change with temperature.

Jerry45
May 13, 2012, 12:36 PM
I'm betwixt and between. I have the action in a Boyd's thumb-hole stock I bought about a year ago. (see picture below) This is the one I'm thinking about bedding. I like the stock but wish I had bough a Bell & Carson Tactical stock. I still lust for one.

Before anyone asks it's a Remington 700 30/06 and it'll shoot 1" or less at 100 yards as it sits.


I was also looking at this but I don't believe I want to get that drastic.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/844/844231.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/844231/whidden-gunworks-remington-700-stock-bedding-block-long-action-right-hand-with-magazine-cut-out-aluminum

My problem is I'm never satisfied and just plain like tinkering with my guns. :D I'm not even sure it needs bedding but I keep hearing "it won't hurt".

This is how she sits to date.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/germil1/Rem700.jpg

animal
May 13, 2012, 12:56 PM
Oh pretty …
When you were talking JB weld and such, I was picturing a beat-up clunky sporterized Spanish or something … She deserves better, imo.

A little careful inletting and the Gel would do a nice job. Barrel is already free-floated, right?
Unclenick and Mapsjanhere bring up a great argument for steel bedding and I learned something from their posts that I hadn’t considered - thanks guys!

Bedding done correctly will never hurt. Doesn’t always help, though. The better base you start with, the less it usually helps. You already have a fine base, imo.

Jerry45
May 13, 2012, 01:49 PM
Yes the barrel is free-float already. I can't actually give a "good" reason for wanting to do the bedding other than "I" need all the help "I" can get. On occasion at 100 yards "I" can put 3 bullets in a 5/16" hole. Most of the time "I" can shoot 1" or less 5 shot string at 100. Sooooo, as is, I think the rifle is good to go, but everything I can do to make the rifle shot better puts the blame for not shooting one ragged 1/4" hole squarely where it belongs.... The loose nut behind the trigger. :D

I'm also lusting after a Bell & Carson Tactical stock. :)

animal
May 13, 2012, 02:20 PM
Fully understand that … I built up the most accurate rifle I could out of the pure frustration of not knowing when to blame myself and when to blame the rifle. Now I know what (actually, who) to blame most of the time.:o:D

"Just ‘cause you want to" is good enough reason to tweak a toy, imo…. :)
noticed you’re in Metarie. Cool… I used to live down there years back, close to Lafreniere Park. It was a burned-out racetrack back then.

Jerry45
May 13, 2012, 04:30 PM
Cool! Moved out here from New Orleans (Upper 9th. Ward) 43 years ago. In coming PM.

Jerry45
May 14, 2012, 01:56 PM
I watches this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ_TJ6eIFro series of a smith bedding a custom 700. I didn't see anything special until the end. In all the other videos I've seen the action screws are either taped or coated with release agent and after the bedding was finished the screw holes were left as is. The custom made stock in the video appears to have pillars installed. The fellow (smith) finishes the bedding job by re-drilling the holes in the pillars so the action screws have clearance all the way round. About 4:55 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIVGmJ9z1C4 I'm wondering, since the action screws are alined while bedding and are cinched down tight when the action is installed in the finished bed what advantage would there be to opening up the holes in the stock? Would it actually be necessary?

mapsjanhere
May 14, 2012, 05:20 PM
Most resins are comparatively weak in compression. If you want to torque down on your action, you might crack your brand new bedding. The pillars take up that load.

Jerry45
May 14, 2012, 07:01 PM
My question wasn't about the pillar blocks or cranking down on the screws, it was basically... Why would I want to drill the action screw holes out so that there was "significant" space around the screws?

TrailBlazinMan
May 14, 2012, 07:21 PM
When the rifle fires the recoil energy is transferred through the recoil lug to the stock. This causes the wood to compress slightly then rebound to absorb the force of the recoil. If there is no clearance on the screws then the screws act as a recoil lug: this may crack the stock and/or may the rifle less accurate.

Jerry45
May 14, 2012, 08:26 PM
Ahhhhhhhh! Thank you!

Unclenick
May 15, 2012, 08:17 AM
…Not to mention the screw can shift slightly as you first shoot the newly bedded gun and it settles. That can lead to it's uneven contact with the side of the pillar. Extreme changes in ambient temperature that expand or contract the stock can also affect that degree of contact. So, even if it doesn't lead to damage, it can become another variable you don't need.

Goatwhiskers
May 15, 2012, 12:29 PM
I think you'll find that the "stick" formulation you first mentioned sets up way too fast to be of any use in rifle bedding. I've used some for various mechanical repairs around the place and when it reaches a nice even color--per directions--you've only got a couple of minutes to get everything in place before the reaction "kicks over" and it starts to harden. In my shop I use Acraglas Gel and have no complaints. Goat

Jerry45
May 15, 2012, 04:28 PM
Well guys so far I've enjoyed the posts and all the help but I'm sad to say the bedding job is on hold..... Until I see how the actions shoots in the new Bell & Carlson Tactical Medalist Style 5 stock I ordered this morning. :) Last time I looked there weren't any in stock. I more or less forgot about it until posting this thread. After remembering that I "really" would like to have one, last night I decided to take another look. Not only were they in stock, I had color choices. So I had the wife help me choose between black, black with gray web, tan with black web and olive with black web. We agreed on olive with black web so I bought it. Should be here Friday. :D

Animal, it's all your fault. You told me "just I want to was good enough". Bbbbbbrrrrraaaahhhhhaaaaaa!!!!!!! ;)

animal
May 15, 2012, 11:44 PM
Parts-changer! :p
You’re not laying that one off on me, paisan !:D I said "tweak". Bedding is tweaking. Swapping stocks is a bit more…
hope you enjoy your stock:)

Well. I learned some stuff, and was reminded of some other stuff in this thread, … All that’s gonna be fresh in mind when I do a stock in the next couple of weeks. Got a ratty old Mauser that somebody half-sporterixed at some time or other. Well, a couple weeks is kinda optimistic. I’m gonna do the metalwork first, then decide on what to do about the stock.

hooligan1
May 16, 2012, 10:22 AM
Man I really like to tweak my rifles also, recently I have pillar bedded two stocks for my Savage 110, and painted one of those in cammo. I just bought a Savage 111 in 30-06, from my #1 son, it's already basically pillar bedded, so it got a new Decelarator recoil pad, and it's getting painted today. I just thought that it looks a little better than a Plain black synthetic stock....:)

Jerry45
May 16, 2012, 09:33 PM
Animal, I have to blame it on someone. Haven't you heard? We are living in the age of everything is someone elses' fault. ;)

I've learned a few things and had some reinforcement of some of what already thought. Thanks guys!

hooligan1, I have 2 Savages, a .223 and .17 HMR that I'm also thinking of bedding. May be asking you some questions. :)

Jerry45
May 22, 2012, 01:40 PM
For those interested.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/germil1/Rem700B.jpg

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/germil1/Rem700a-1.jpg

I let the wife look through the NF. She's used to the Osprey on her .223. I almost had to pry the rifle away from her. She was looking for squirrels in a tree 135 yards out. :D I wonder if she could have made a head shot. ;)

animal
May 23, 2012, 10:23 PM
Never woulda figured JB weld would end up lookin like that ! :p

pretty … in a wicked sort of way. Not PC, that’s for sure :)

Jerry45
May 24, 2012, 10:27 AM
A little mixing, a little molding and a little paint and there' no end to what can be done with JB Weld. BUT WAIT! If you call right now you'll get a free cup holder. Just pay separate shipping hand handling. ;)

I never was, never will be PC. I don't know how pretty it is but it sure is Tac Te :cool: I'm headed out the range now to see how cool it shoots. :D

animal
May 24, 2012, 06:18 PM
would you admit it ... if she shot better in the wood stock?:p:D

I can't really say much, I've got a 700 in a kevlar stock:o

Jerry45
May 24, 2012, 10:13 PM
Well I wouldn't have thought I would have to admit it BUT today she DID. :o She with her .223 outshout me with the new stock and scope on the 06. Actually I shot the .223 almost as well she did and better than I did with the 06. It was HOTTTT!!!! The 06 heated up really quickly and never did really get a chance cool down. The 223 has a Bull barrel and will shoot all day long without heating up.

I have the scope on the 06 close to zero but have to check it again with a cold barrel. It always starts moving down and left as it heats up. It will shot one 1/2" high 1" right then three dead center then it starts moving lower and more left until it is shooting 2" low and 1" left and will continue to shoot there. I usually zero it for the three shot group. Then I hold low left for the first shot and can usually get a nice five shot group. Then it goes in the rack while I play with other toys for 1/2 hour. Today it was hot hot hot. Just before I left I was shooting 1/2" size pieces of clay pigeons off the berm by dialed the scope up 2" over 1 1/4". I put the last shot before I left dead center between the eyes of a silhouette at 100. I'm pretty sure I'll get the hang of the new setup fairly quickly. :)

Now all I need to do is find an old beater Remington long action rifle for a couple hundred bucks so I can send the action out to be tuned and re-barreled. :D

Gunn Smithy
June 3, 2012, 02:18 AM
I looked at ACRAGLAS GEL on Brownell’s.

I use the standard Acraglas shop kit which comes with fiberglass flocking to thicken and strengthen as you see fit. I prefer the standard Acraglas as you can make up what ever viscosity you need to do the job at hand. Smithy.