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View Full Version : German police only used 85 bullets last year


1911Alaska
May 12, 2012, 05:27 AM
Interesting article I just read.
http://now.msn.com/now/0511-german-police-bullets.aspx

Why do you guys think this is? Especially compared to us in America.

I have never been to Germany. I am sure the culture is much different there than it is here, but only 85 bullets for a hole country seems extremely low to me.

BlueTrain
May 12, 2012, 05:57 AM
I lived in Germany for nearly two years and my brother and sister-in-law are there now, in Stuttgart. In September my daughter will be moving there, which means we'll probably go visit next year. Our in-laws living in Germany was the excuse to go the U.K. last year.

Germany has a reputation for being particularly strict with respect to laws. The U.S., on the other hand, seems to have more things that are illegal and enforcement can appear to be uneven, unfair and unpredictible. Germany has high speed limits but don't even think of breaking any traffic rules. The drinking age is lower there, the age to get a driving license is higher. You even have to get a German driver's license if you're an American serviceman or dependent, at least if you are going to drive. And it's a difficult test, I understand.

There is a hunting tradition in Germany, especially in the southern part of the country, which at one time even carried over into the army. And just like you would expect, getting permits and licenses isn't easy. But there is still hunting in the U.K., too.

More Americans, myself included, are descended from German immigrants than from any other country, supposedly, and an American could even feel at home there. There is a strong folk (volk) tradition there, too, and American country & western music even has some popularity--sung in German (Auf der Autobahn).

At the moment, at least, it is a reasonably stable country, mostly due to a prosperous economy, which probably accounts for more of the peaceful nature of the country than anything else. But maybe American policemen are more likely to shoot first.

The country is not without problems relating to foreigners. Americans sometimes imagine that the U.S. is the only place anyone would ever move to, which is a false idea. No one in their right mind would come here anymore looking for work. France also has problems with immigrants but in both of those cases, with a different background, the problems are mostly of their own making. Germany invited foreign workers to come there decades ago. France allowed immigration from their former colonies, same as the U.K. and the U.S. The country is also has strong regional differences, just like in the U.K. and the U.S., and there is just as much differences in the language.

Overall, it's a nice place and I wouldn't mind living there but it's expensive. But I'm happy where I am. Besides, I buy my jodel and accordian music from Austria anyway. Jodeln ist cool but it drives my wife crazy.

Marquezj16
May 12, 2012, 10:09 AM
I spent a total of 3.5 years in Germany. It really is a lovely country. I would definitely go back if given the chance.

I think for the most part, the culture respects the law there. And the law is clear and strict.

For example- there are some areas of the Autobahn that has no speed limit. You can go as fast as the mechanical limits of your vehicle. However, you cannot ride the left lane unless you are passing and if someone is faster than you, you move to the slower lane. There are no traffic cops to enforce this, it is just done. Amazing what it does for traffic.
If you do decide to speed where there is a speed limit, a police officer will not pull you over. Instead you will get caught by the many traffic cameras they have in place. Some are there in permanent areas and some are mobile, set up as a trash can or in a car parked next to the road. You will receive the ticket via mail with the speed you were travelling and a very good picture of your license plate and the driver. :D

The police also does not tolerate any behavior that disrespects their authority. For example - they have the right to take your blood for alcohol test. If you do not consent, they will take it from you in the manner they see fit.

I don't remember much crime in the news during my time there. Most of the blotter I read were of "US Servicemen". The few I have seen that got out of line were quickly taken into custody and were dealt with force if they resisted (think half a dozen policemen subduing one individual).

Overall, the law will leave you alone. Just don't break any of it.

Pond, James Pond
May 12, 2012, 10:46 AM
I would also add that there is a seemingly strong sense of civic responsibility. I get a feeling that their people are more considerate, too.

The UK has lost that: there the mentality has been becoming much more selfish over the last 20 or so years, especially in the urban areas: such a shame...:(

In France, a little like in the Mediterranean countries, they are more laid back and see rules and regs as quite "elastic" in their interpretation.
Nice to see they don't take life to seriously but at the same time frustrating when some don't take others into account. Also definitely more so in cities.

How does this equate to 84 bullets fire in anger? No idea.

I suppose the sorts of situations where lethal force is needed don't come up very often, and/or the police don't resort to lethal force quite so quickly...

steveno
May 12, 2012, 10:55 AM
I'm pretty sure that German police doesn't have to deal with all of the gangs that unfortunately the police have to deal with in this country.

Rampant_Colt
May 12, 2012, 10:56 AM
They're called cartridges, not bullets.. Stop regurgitating what the MSM calls loaded ammunition

1911Alaska
May 12, 2012, 12:05 PM
"They're called cartridges, not bullets.. Stop regurgitating what the MSM calls loaded ammunition"
**MSN

G1R2
May 12, 2012, 12:42 PM
"Why do you guys think this is?"

It's probably because the poor policeman who fires his gun will have to fill enough paperwork to keep him busy for the next ten years.

Seriously, I believe that German culture respects the laws and their authorities who enforce them - not like some other countries.

BGutzman
May 12, 2012, 12:42 PM
German police are not contrained by all our laws... If they want to work you over they have no such thing as police brutality... In other words its not wise to mess with them.

I spent 6+ years in Germany and I had the drivers license and lived on the economy.... Germany expects certain things of people that live there....They didnt outlaw freedom like we have and although they have problems they dont take much crap.... I cant wait to go back one day..

1911Tuner
May 12, 2012, 12:46 PM
Likely very closely tied to a culture of respect for laws and for people...along with swift, harsh repercussions for not doing so. Note the recent quake in Japan. There was no looting or pillaging. No raping and robbing and no beat-downs just because it seemed like a good idea at the time. The Japanese people went quietly and respectfully about the business of cleaning up and rendering aid to those in need.

I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw from all that...but there it is.

Edward429451
May 12, 2012, 12:50 PM
Maybe the Germans dont need as much ammo because they are not at war against their citizenry. Perhaps they treat their citizenry with some respect so they get respect in return and it has made for a less violent relationship between them? :)

zoomie
May 12, 2012, 12:52 PM
http://www.k5rcd.org/TEXAS%20EUROPE%20SIZE%20COMPARISON%20MAP.jpg

Any comparison between Germany and the US is invalid before you even start. Homogeneous population, tiny...

BGutzman
May 12, 2012, 01:07 PM
Any comparison between Germany and the US is invalid before you even start. Homogeneous population, tiny...

Yes as obviously tiny nations could not have crime nor discord and yet they have a large immigrant population.... :rolleyes:

overkill0084
May 12, 2012, 01:24 PM
Cultural stereotypes aside (Germanic sense of discipline & order.)
I suspect that they deal with a lot fewer armed perpetrators proportionally.

The writer certainly makes no bones about where he comes down on the issue.
According to Germany's Der Spiegel, German police shot only 85 bullets in all of 2011, a stark reminder that not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. of A.
What a tool.

manta49
May 12, 2012, 01:25 PM
Possibly because their are less firearms in circulation. I can't be bothered but in stead of saying the population in germany is smaller so the figures are not accurate. Why don't some with this reply work out the population of germany and America and do the sums and then make a comparison.

SHNOMIDO
May 12, 2012, 01:49 PM
street gangs in the USA border on civil disturbance.

Pick up 100 Gangster Disciples out of chicago and 100 mexican mafia out of texas and drop them on both sides of berlin.

Give them 6 months to set up competing crime and drug syndicates and see how many rounds the police have to fire that year.

Its not a gun problem its a gang problem.

Pond, James Pond
May 12, 2012, 02:25 PM
Its not a gun problem its a gang problem.

Well, if the gangs use guns, then it is also a gun problem, by association. The distinction that needs to be made is that these are illegal guns, as opposed to legal ones.

But if gangs are the cause, this then begs the question why are there so many gangs?

Longdayjake
May 12, 2012, 02:31 PM
They're called cartridges, not bullets.. Stop regurgitating what the MSM calls loaded ammunition

They are indeed called bullets. You can't shoot a cartridge without shooting a bullet as well. So, nothing he wrote was incorrect. They only shot 85 bullets.

Rampant_Colt
May 12, 2012, 02:41 PM
"German police only used 85 bullets last year "

No, you're wrong, they used 85 cartridges..

Pond, James Pond
May 12, 2012, 02:41 PM
Why don't some with this reply work out the population of germany and America and do the sums and then make a comparison.

Actually, I was curious, so I looked it up.

Germany's population is 81.5 million, give or take , with 74% in urban areas, and they have a population density of 229.4 inhabitants per square kilometer.

By contrast the US have a populatiuon of about 313 million, with 82% in urban areas, but I couldn't easily find population density...

Anyway, not sure if that helps anyone...

Pond, James Pond
May 12, 2012, 02:42 PM
No, they used 85 cartriges..


Dunno about you but if I use a cartridge but don't use a bullet in the process, I get really upset....

BlueTrain
May 12, 2012, 05:29 PM
I am willing to forgive your petty complaints about cartridges versus bullets, provided you never, ever, write "boolit."

Edward429451
May 12, 2012, 05:35 PM
Why? Boolit is more than just slang. It's a way to differentiate a cast lead (slug) from a jacketed (slug) while saving bandwidth with explanations.

Patriot86
May 12, 2012, 07:22 PM
I would really say it is a cultural thing more than anything.


Look at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina...then look at the Aftermath of the Earthquake/Tsunami in Japan....

dayman
May 12, 2012, 07:24 PM
Wasn't this question the question behind "bowling for columbine"?
We do seem more violent than other countries.
There are probably a lot of reasons, and I doubt any of them are simple.

As far as Germany being small and homogenous, there are nearly 100,000,000 Germans, and nearly 20% of them are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. At least according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany)

zoomie
May 12, 2012, 07:38 PM
As far as Germany being small and homogenous, there are nearly 100,000,000 Germans, and nearly 20% of them are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

If you use your numbers, 99% of the US is immigrants or descendants of immigrants. I know my great-grandparents came over on the boat, so I'm a descendant of immigrants, but I'm 100% American.

80% native Germans > 1% Native Americans.

Anyway, here are the CIA numbers:
German 91.5%, Turkish 2.4%, other 6.1% (made up largely of Greek, Italian, Polish, Russian, Serbo-Croatian, Spanish)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

And of those immigrants, most are European who already share a values system. That's a far cry from the US where immigrants are literally from every country in the world. How many "Americans" consider themselves such and how many consider themselves part of their home country. We have people that are 10 generations removed from a continent that still refer to themselves as ethnically-hyphenated. Our cities are a classic case of the Clash of Civilizations.

US:
white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean persons of Spanish/Hispanic/Latino origin including those of Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republic, Spanish, and Central or South American origin living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.); about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic

Point still stands - compared to the US, Germany is homogeneous and that creates fewer problems than does a melting pot.

Longdayjake
May 12, 2012, 08:07 PM
So, rampant_colt, are you really trying to say they didn't use 85 bullets?

Because they did. I am pretty sure the projectiles that came out of their barrel can be called bullets. Only in badly made movies do entire cartridges come out of a barrel. Or maybe the Germans were in Weird Al movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5_Z0LsPnE

WyMark
May 12, 2012, 08:26 PM
SHNOMIDO:

street gangs in the USA border on civil disturbance.

Pick up 100 Gangster Disciples out of chicago and 100 mexican mafia out of texas and drop them on both sides of berlin.

Give them 6 months to set up competing crime and drug syndicates and see how many rounds the police have to fire that year.

Its not a gun problem its a gang problem.


Better make that 60 days, I really doubt that enough of them would survive a whole six months, or at least enough of them to make an impact. Or do you really think there are no drug and criminal gangs in Berlin? Or is it just that ours must be so much tougher that the all the others?

Rampant_Colt
May 12, 2012, 09:07 PM
I'm certain Germany doesn't have to deal with 10 million illegal aliens, 33,000 violent street gangs, motorcycle gangs, and prison gangs with about 1.4 million members that are criminally active in the U.S. today.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/gangs

The other issue is how street gang mentality is generally acceptable and glamorized by our society. It's cool and trendy for kids to talk, act and dress like a "gangsta", wearing their stupid-looking flat-bill baseball caps, baggy pants and oversized t-shirts, packin an illegal heater. Peace-out, y0.




So, rampant_colt, are you really trying to say they didn't use 85 bullets?

Because they did. I am pretty sure the projectiles that came out of their barrel can be called bullets. Only in badly made movies do entire cartridges come out of a barrel. Or maybe the Germans were in Weird Al movies.
That's cute. So, longdayjake, did they just throw the 'bullets' at the bad guys with their hands, or were they loaded into cartridges? It's called semantics. Every mainsteam media report I've read or watched on TV regarding firearms was biased, filled with technical inaccuracies and full of major flaws. How many bullets are in your clip?

The Germans only used 85 cartridges in 2011 is what the title should say. Or conversely, 'used 85 rounds in 2011'.

Longdayjake
May 12, 2012, 09:54 PM
How many bullets are in your clip?

Sometimes 8 and sometimes 5. Depends on the gun I am shooting. All I was trying to say was the title is factually and technically correct. In order to shoot 85 times it takes 85 bullets. Unless of course you are shooting with a shotgun. Or a tank, or whatever.

Furthermore, if you were to say that the Germans only shot 85 rounds you would technically be wrong since rounds originally came from (depending on the source you cite) using round ball bullets or a group shooting a volley of fire back in the old musket era. Though it may be technically wrong to say round, it is widely accepted as the term for a piece of ammunition. Thats because soldiers, people, movies, and video games have been calling them rounds for long enough that the terminology has stuck. I wonder how many guys sat around the camp fires during the civil war and complained about all the guys calling their new bullets balls even though they were oblong and grooved. The point is, "bullets" is fine. You know the difference. There is no need to make fun of or give a hard time to the OP because he is using a term that is widely accepted by most everyone. The only place it is really important to differentiate between the two is in the reloading forum. Otherwise, we all get what he is trying to say. Or am I wrong? Did you guys think the Germans were using rail guns when you read the OP?

jimbob86
May 12, 2012, 10:53 PM
Any comparison between Germany and the US is invalid before you even start. Homogeneous population,

Homogenous population?

Really?

Get 4 old german guys in a beer hall, say an Ossie Saxon, a Bavarian, a Prussian and a Saarlander ..... they won't even agree on how to drink beer.... never mind the millions of descendants of Turkish "Guest Workers" ..... the hundreds of thousands of Balkan War refugees that never left ..... Germany was not even a country 150 years ago, but a bunch of separate Kingdoms and duchys.... until the Prussians beat them into a formidable Empire ...... when they could no longer fight each other, they went looking for trouble......

There was a very real respect (or more rightly, FEAR) of the Polizei- as was mentioned before- they do not fear accusations of "police brutality"- beating the tar out of unruly or uncooperative ...... suspects ..... seems to be part of the job. I have seen that firsthand. Germans heard of Rodney King and said, "What did he expect? He runs from the police, risking the lives of innocent people....."

I lived in Germany in the late 80's to mid-90's ...... there were plenty of regional tensions then, and I am sure such exist today......


There was a cultural "sense of order" and neatness that I noted ..... everything must be done in the proper time, by the proper person, who was properly trained, and has the proper permits from the proper "-Amt" (There seemed to be an "-Amt" for everything.) * This seemed to stifle individual initiative, but their bureaucracy was so effcient, it actually worked, if you followed all the steps you needed to do to get anything done.
Guns are not common there, and armed criminals are dealt with very harshly.

*I noted that there were almost no pick-up trucks there: Germans hired a moving company if they needed something moved, where Americans will call a buddy with a pick-up.

Pond, James Pond
May 13, 2012, 01:55 AM
And of those immigrants, most are European who already share a values system.

I'm afraid I can't agree with that. Just because someone is from Europe, doesn't mean that everyone and anyone gets on with others like peas in a pod.

Europe, on the whole, works satisfactorily together.
However, there are dozens of countries, populations, languages, cultural and ethnic groups all stuffed into a realtively small are, with a big population for that area, as well. This does not make for a shared value system.

The stuff we do agree on is probably not so different to what many see as important in the US..

This vast array of cultural beliefs, values and attitudes makes Europe a facsinating and exciting place to life: you don't have to travel far to see something new. The flip side of course is that it can lead to cultural friction.

In that respect I think that the US is more homogeneous.
Yes, everyone (or mostly) is of immigrant stock, but they were all drawn to the US because of its way of life: people of different backgrounds actively came together becuase of the shared goals they had in common...

How all that relates to the OP is a complex one.

I still believe that this stat on firearms use is largely a reflection of the cultural upbringing of the Germans, and probably also on Police training.
Perhaps they have a different set of procedures to follow before drawing and using a weapon is deemed appropriate action.

SHNOMIDO
May 13, 2012, 03:16 AM
Wymark-

Call me isolated or ignorant, but i believe the violent street gang problem in the US is worse than Germany.

Hell, maybe I'm wrong or maybe im exaggerating it. What do i know...

We should look at the breakdown of reason for force used, if there is any kind of statistic that tracks that. See why cops in germany are shooting Vs why in the US.

Another thing is this is tracking shots. I dont think it would be unreasonable to believe that all 85 of those rounds were fired in 2-3 incidents.

85 rounds, 3 incidents, 2 cops per incident, empty a 15 round magazine each.

Might have only been 3 nasty mag-dumping incidents all year. Im not implying anything besides the bullets used statistic is kind of vague.

85 bullets could have been one bank robbery.

1911Alaska
May 13, 2012, 04:51 AM
Germans heard of Rodney King and said, "What did he expect? He runs from the police, risking the lives of innocent people....."

That is genius. I wish America could be more like that. No joke. That is 100% true in my opinion.

BlueTrain
May 13, 2012, 05:36 AM
There is a lot of forgotten history here. In the 1870s, something like 20% of the American population was foreign born. What is it now?

Also, in Germany for twenty years at least after the war, there were large numbers of what were called "displaced persons" in Germany. Some numbers of former soldiers from other countries to the east were organized into military units called labor battalions but I don't know how long they exisited. They were there when I was there, however.

In Germany, there was for a while some tension between what was East Germany and the rest of the country. The current chancellor is from former East Germany. For a relatively small country (smaller than the U.S., China or Russia), there are equally great regional differences that go back hundreds of years, although less than there used to be because of redrawn borders. Patterns of land ownership, for instance, differ from place to place. On the other hand, Switzerland, an even smaller country (which calls itself a confederation), has even greater differences. Then there was Yugoslavia.

From reading the original article, however, the statistics are slightly loaded. They didn't count the bullets used when animals had to be shot and of course they didn't count bulets used in training. Likewise, they may not have included bullets used by other agencies, so you should always take statistics with a grain of salt.

Manson
May 13, 2012, 05:47 AM
I think the Germans are just better shots the we are.

dayman
May 13, 2012, 05:58 AM
I dont think it would be unreasonable to believe that all 85 of those rounds were fired in 2-3 incidents.

I was thinking the exact opposite - maybe part of the reason German cops fired so little is that they don't go so nuts when they do have to shoot - thinking about the recent thread about the NYPD shooting 80-something rounds at a guy and wounding him 17 times.
Either way, knowing the number of incidents as well as the number of shots would give a more accurate picture.

KMAX
May 13, 2012, 06:35 AM
I wonder if maybe the criminals are held accountable for their crimes unlike in the US where too many are not held accountable for their behavior due to various liberal excuses. I won't elaborate, because you don't want me to get started.

Husqvarna
May 13, 2012, 06:35 AM
could it be that us cops have it more leniant when using their guns?

I am pretty sure that German cops have it similar to Swedish ones, only in a life and death situation are they allowed to (almost) even pull their guns, **** british cops and norweigan are unarmed, the brits have special cops with guns and I believe norweigan cops have it in their cars but it is locked and can only be unlocked over the radio

Husqvarna
May 13, 2012, 06:45 AM
KMAX you don't wanna know, just like most of Europe a life sentence isn't a life sentence really (unless you are really psycho)

I can't promise it is the same in Germany as in Sweden but here you are not sentenced for every crime (if you are charged with multiple stuff) just the one with the highest sentencing, parole after 2/3 is common

This really sucks for us gun owners because the criminals never really gets punished for illegal gun ownership because it never really comes up unless they commit a crime with the illegal guns. but us hunters and sportshooters are regulated ad nauseum, now they are even going to outlaw semi auto rifles

KMAX
May 13, 2012, 07:10 AM
I have no problem with any gun ownership, legal or illegal. It is the inappropriate use of the gun that I have a problem with. If my neighbors want to own fully automatic weapons I don't care. If they want to shoot them at the range or some other safe area I don't care. If they want to shoot up the neighborhood or rob people or murder people, then I care. Gun ownership in itself is not the issue, but rather the use of said guns. Guns are not the problem, behavior is.

Also, I think that a lot of cops in the US are under-trained. This is based solely on my opinion of some of the cops I have known and observed.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 13, 2012, 09:51 AM
The cultural contexts of Germany are not a T and T issue.

Also, watch the language filter and off topics posts.

Closed.