PDA

View Full Version : I heard about shooting with both eyes open


Red Dog
May 10, 2012, 10:35 PM
I want to know how that's done. I seen things referring to 'Front Sight' among others. How do you aim? What if you have a dominant eye?

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2012, 02:39 AM
I want to know how that's done.

Don't close one eye.

I seen things referring to 'Front Sight' among others.
This isn't relevant to shooting with both eyes open. It is relevant for aiming a gun with front and rear sights.

How do you aim?

Just like you normally would. With that said, are you unfamiliar with how to aim guns?

What if you have a dominant eye?

A dominant eye can make it a lot easier to shoot with both eyes open, especially if the dominant eye is the same as your dominant hand.

GM2
May 11, 2012, 04:08 AM
Double Naught Answered your Questions well. I might add Try walking or running with one eye closed. It is disorienting to say the least as well as inefcient. Shooting with two eyes open allows for better balance and orientation while holding the Firearm.

Sport45
May 11, 2012, 04:55 AM
I, for one, do not do well shooting with both eyes open. When I focus on the front sight I see two targets that are about equally well defined. I know from experience to aim at the right one but I really do better by at least squinting my left eye.

Skans
May 11, 2012, 07:27 AM
If I'm shooting paper targets, I close my left eye. If I'm doing defensive drills, I keep both eyes open.

MLeake
May 11, 2012, 08:07 AM
I learned to use both eyes initially by squinting my left eye.

Occasionally, I still have to do that to start a session.

Hogtown
May 11, 2012, 01:34 PM
guess turning 60 I had to add another move in sighting my weapon,now after shot I have to drop weapon down a little then raise back up to get correct sight,if I don`t everything is fuzzy and takes too long to get correct sight, I shoot with both eyes open

pgdion
May 11, 2012, 01:49 PM
Shooting with two eyes open allows for better balance and orientation while holding the Firearm.
It also adds for a better field of view. With one eye closed you are basically blind to one side. Therefor it's good to practice with both eyes open for defensive shooting. However, it is usually easier to score better on targets with only 1 eye open. So for me, for leagues it's one eye open, for other practice it's two eyes open.

How do you do it? It just takes practice and getting used to. One eye (your dominant one) will provide most of the focusing. With a little practice, you still see the sights and target clearly with your dominant eye while the other eye fills in depth and your field of view. Awkward at first but not bad with a little practice.

Hey Sport45, are you dominant in one eye or eye neutral (is that possible???)

Pahoo
May 11, 2012, 02:05 PM
I learned to use both eyes initially by squinting my left eye.

Simular to training a dog. Stay consistant, practice and let the mind program itself for what you want done. To a certain degree, you can tell a shooters dominant eye by obseving which one is squinting. With very little time, it wil be second nature. Regardless of what I'm shooting, I keep both eyes open even though, my left eye seems to always be squinting. I think this comes from my instinctive style of archery shooting. .... ;)


Be Safe !!!

jager.30-06
May 11, 2012, 03:00 PM
i shoot both eyes open with rifles scoped or not shotguns and pistols , i was trying to think of a way to explain this to my wife, she's a squinter, i told her think about it honey ,you dont read a book with one eye open or drive your car squinting then after trying both eyes open she started playing a little tune on the steel with my 1911, my advise is just go to the range and try it.

DasGuy
May 11, 2012, 04:20 PM
I learned to use both eyes initially by squinting my left eye.

That's also how I taught myself.

Red Dog
May 11, 2012, 04:33 PM
Went to the range today to give it a shot.

1) What should be clear? Target, Sight both neither.
2) How should the sight picture look?


I hit the target in the general area that I was aiming sometimes. Just looking for some tips to begin muscle training.

Erikbal
May 11, 2012, 07:37 PM
I don't know if this is weird, I guess I never thought about it, but I always shoot with both eyes open. I aim with both eyes, I haven't been shooting for a long time either though.

WyMark
May 11, 2012, 07:50 PM
The only way I can shoot at all is with both eyes open.

I'm right handed and right eye dominant, but I am monovision left eye corrected for distance. So I read with my right eye and see distance with the help of a contact in my left eye (going to get Lasik on my left eye this year). This can make shooting a bit of a challenge, but if I keep both eyes open I can sort of see the front sight and the target both.

For indoor range shooting I had a special pair of safety glasses made that corrects just my right eye, otherwise it's just too hard to see the target with the indoor lighting.

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2012, 08:15 PM
From a self defense or hunting perspective, having both eyes open is a real benefit. The eye not used for sighting is still able to catch movement even if you aren't concentrating on that eye's view. When you close the eye not being used for sighting, you are making a giant blind spot/blind side in your visual awareness which is already being reduced when sighting with the other eye.

I picked up the practice in the family store, using a loupe and dealing with customers. It is amazing what customers will try to do when they think you aren't looking and that your whole world field of view is concentrated down to a square half inch. One eye on the jewelry and one eye on the customer.

The doubling of the targets as noted above is a problem some have. Supposedly, it can be overcome with some simple training exercises, but I have never done them and don't know how well they do or do not work.

Sport45
May 11, 2012, 08:19 PM
Hey Sport45, are you dominant in one eye or eye neutral (is that possible???)


I don't know. But sitting here at the desk I can hold a pencil at arm's length and focus on the eraser "aiming" at the doorknob across the hall. I see two doorknobs and they both look about the same. The eraser is under the one on the right.

hey.moe
May 11, 2012, 09:11 PM
Red Dog,

I trained myself to shoot with both eyes open over a period of a couple of weeks by dry practicing a little bit every day. I'm right-handed and right eye dominant. When I would focus on the front sight I'd see two images. The one I wanted to use was on the left. After a while my brain started to ignore the wrong one. It's still there, but now I have to intentionally try to see it.

I remember hearing of an experiment many years ago where a group of subjects were fitted with glasses that inverted the image they saw. After a period of adjustment (days or weeks, I don't know) they began to see the world right side up again. Their brains had made the correction. Of course when they took the glasses off at the end of the experiment they had to go through the same transition in reverse.

I suspect the ability to shoot with both eyes open will have to be relearned if it's not practiced with some regularity - use it or lose it.

-Stan-

egor20
May 11, 2012, 09:17 PM
I'm right handed and left dominant eye, I've always shot with both eye's open, with long guns I do use my right eye though.

ClayInTx
May 11, 2012, 09:43 PM
Hogtown
everything is fuzzy

Blink.

animal
May 11, 2012, 10:00 PM
I don't know. But sitting here at the desk I can hold a pencil at arm's length and focus on the eraser "aiming" at the doorknob across the hall. I see two doorknobs and they both look about the same. The eraser is under the one on the right.

Sport45 : Your focus is on the pencil rather than the doorknob. Try playing with your focus until you see 2 pencils and one doorknob. One pencil will be more distinct than the other.
Right eye dominant: the left pencil will be most distinct, and aimed at the dorknob.

Sport45
May 12, 2012, 12:24 AM
Sport45 : Your focus is on the pencil rather than the doorknob. Try playing with your focus until you see 2 pencils and one doorknob. One pencil will be more distinct than the other.
Right eye dominant: the left pencil will be most distinct, and aimed at the dorknob.


The eraser being under the right doorknob tells me the same thing. Focusing on the doorknob both pencils look pretty much the same. If I stare at the doorknob long enough one pencil image or the other (seems random) will go away entirely.

For target shooting (round black bulls on paper) I close my left eye or wind up with a headache along with a bad score.

The last time I qualified for my carry permit I used both eyes and point shot well enough to pass.

If I have time to aim I'm closing my left eye. If I don't have time to aim I won't. YMMV

johnwilliamson062
May 12, 2012, 12:45 AM
Best thread ever.

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2012, 02:48 AM
Here in an instructional video for determining eye dominance. It is billed for archery, but it is the same test done for many activities.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4994511_determine-dominant-eye-archery.html

jmr40
May 12, 2012, 06:58 AM
Both eyes should be open at all times, any gun, any type of sights. I cannot think of a single reason why anyone would ever want to be shooting at anything, targets, hunting, or SD while only using 1/2 of their vision.

If you cannot do it, learn how. Don't ever let a new shooter develop bad habits.

animal
May 12, 2012, 10:31 AM
The eraser ...point shot well enough to pass.
Exactly. I was beating around the bush a bit because I didn’t want to take flak about bringing up point shooting. :o
I focus on the target with both eyes open … and may be the completely wrong thing to do for most people . I teach people to focus on the front sight, but find it difficult and clumsy to do myself. When I’m shooting a pistol with defense in mind, I’m aware of the sight picture as a fuzzy image aligned with the target in focus.
Shooting "bullseye style", I focus on the sight, with the target fuzzy. . I get eyestrain when shooting "bullseye" for too long.

I don’t think all eyes and associated vision circuitry are created equal. Some would say that’s just a cop-out for not learning what I teach others. I think it’s working with what I have, vision-wise.
My eye dominance shifts depending on what I’m doing and I can consciously choose one or the other as dominant. Shifting back and forth causes an odd sensation of my surroundings gently "rocking" a little. Mostly, I’m right eye dominant and right handed. Shooting left handed, eyes naturally shift to left-dominant. (Hand preference also shifts depending on what I’m doing.)
I've also noticed that I lose the ability to focus close-up under high stress or anger. At times, I've had to wait until I calmed down before I could read normal print ... without straining really hard, that is.

Out of curiosity … When you hold the pencil in your left hand, does your eye dominance shift ?

9mm
May 12, 2012, 12:41 PM
I better learn how to shoot with both eyes open... I been using an eye patch because it's hard to keep one eye shut. :rolleyes:

Red Dog
May 14, 2012, 01:22 PM
What about the sight picture??? Unless I fire off a few shots and then check the target and repeat several times I really won't have any idea of where I should be aiming. I'm attempting to tap into the knowledge of my peers here to avoid simple
mistakes.

animal
May 14, 2012, 01:39 PM
Use the force ,RedDog :D… sorry, I couldn’t resist, no offense intended… but imo, it is a "let it happen"sort of thing. Practice at home just aiming is also very helpful,imo.

Front sight focus :Sight picture is "as normal". Some see a double image of the target. For some of those people, the second image goes away or they learn to ignore it.

Target focus : double image is of the sight alignment, otherwise the same as above.

animal
May 14, 2012, 01:51 PM
You might try ...
Support your pistol arm somehow … so you can keep it steady while moving your head( moving the head while changing the way you look at something has a tendency to happen without realizing it). Pick something to aim at, do so, then open your second eye. If the pistol is properly supported, you can play with your eyes .. focus, note image characteristics, etc … while knowing where the gun is aimed. A pistol with both iron sights and a laser might be helpful, if you have one.

Frank Ettin
May 14, 2012, 05:12 PM
Sometimes some good instruction is needed.

My group put on its monthly Basic Handgun class last Saturday. We had nine students, none of whom had ever fired a gun before. Three of them were cross dominant.

At the live fire part of the class, everyone was shooting 1.5 to 2 inch groups with a .22lr at seven yards. Several shot sub-2.5 inch groups with the .44 Magnum. One student shot a 1.5 inch group with the .44 Magnum double action. No one shot groups larger than about 3 inches with a variety of guns from 9mm up to the .44 Magnum. Everyone shot with both eyes open. And again not a single student had ever fired a gun before.

These results are fairly typical for our classes, except the sometimes we do have a student who isn't able to manage to shoot with both eyes open, but that's pretty rare.

We teach standard front sight focus/surprise break. But we have a lot of instructors for relatively few students -- usually a 1:2 or 1:3 instructor to student ratio. We provide a lot of "hands-on" individualized instruction.

Davey
May 14, 2012, 10:13 PM
I want to know how that's done. I seen things referring to 'Front Sight' among others. How do you aim? What if you have a dominant eye?

Normally when I shoot with both eyes open, which is how I normally shoot, I see a ghost image of what I'm looking at. I disregard one of the images and focus on the other that is picked up by my dominant eye.

To figure out which eye is dominant aim at something with both eyes open. Don't do anything fancy, just do whatever feels natural. Close one eye, if the sights are still lined up then you are looking through your dominant eye. That's how I figured it out anyway.

I've noticed that it takes quite a bit of work to aim using my non dominant eye and it doesn't feel natural at all.

jimbob86
May 14, 2012, 10:40 PM
I cannot think of a single reason why anyone would ever want to be shooting at anything, targets, hunting, or SD while only using 1/2 of their vision.



I have one: Using high magnification scopes, it's a real mind bender trying to make sense out of two images of apparent different sizes.

Try setting a your rifle scope on 10 or 12 power and keep both eyes open.... makes for a headache.

I shoot pistol, iron sighted rifles, and scout scoped rifles both eyes open. Conventional scoped rifles with large magnifications, dominant eye only.

echo7tango
May 15, 2012, 10:15 AM
Great topic. Another benefit of both eyes open, besides the increased field of view mentioned, is that there's twice the light getting to the brain. Especially critical in low light.

I've been a one-eyed shooter ever since I learned to shoot 30 years ago and I've done fairly well, but now it's time to see if this old dog can learn a new trick.

I shoot pistols and plan to go to the range and try two things with both eyes open: 'focus on the front sight', or 'focus on the target'. I'll shoot three rounds each way at different aim points (i.e. - 'focus on the front sight' for aim point 1, then 'focus on the target' for aim point 2), then check my target and assess accuracy. Then I'll repeat, again and again.

The truth lies in where the bullet strikes the target, so I'll do this range exercise before deciding how to do any extensive dry fire practice at home.

Note: as I read this thread and try pointing a pencil at an aim point, 'focus on the target' initially seems more natural and easy than does 'focus on the front sight'. But for 30 years I've been a front sight (with one eye) guy. This should be an interesting exercise.

I'll post a follow up after I hit the range.

animal
May 15, 2012, 11:20 AM
IMHO :Most people seem to get quicker accuracy results with front sight focus, and a lot of conventional wisdom supports it as the superior method. I personally believe it to be more inherently accurate, less dependent on the gun being matched to you, and less work/practice to master.

I never have recommended target focus for anyone that hasn’t exhaustively tried to master front sight focus except once… and that was a case of a woman that had never shot a pistol before, couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn after 2 boxes of .38s, and I had less than an hour to get her where she wouldn’t automatically lose a confrontation with her ex. It worked good enough to group 5" @ 20’ almost immediately. Slow fire, rapid fire, didn’t really matter. A couple of days later, she could barely hit the paper that way. We returned to training front sight focus, and she could do it !!! I think most of her troubles were from stress, and the "target focus" was just a temporary stopgap measure to compensate. The ex had been picked up and locked up by the second lesson, btw.

Anyway, I hope you consider trying to learn front sight focus with both eyes open before trying target focus… If you’re seriously training, that is. Mixing it up might be fun, but I dunno how useful it’d be.
Or, you might consider trying several targets one way, then several the other. Dunno about you, but for me … switching between methods quickly is for testing rather than learning.

Just opinion and anecdote, TIFWIW ...

echo7tango
May 15, 2012, 11:57 AM
Yes, understood and thanks animal for sharing that experience. I'm a well-established and accurate front sight guy (in shooting, not in posting on this forum), and I'm not mixing it up for fun but to test the techiques, and also test/train the eyes and brain.

While target focus may initially seem easier, as a retired USMC vet I do realize that the initially easiest method isn't always best for long-term, sustained success; and I have a decent foundation of shooting basics. Also, having gone to Front Sight in Pahrump NV, I know the value of the front sight and I've done fairly well in their defensive handgun course there.

I need to test this out at the range. Again, the proof lies in the bullet strike. Also, I can definitely use more regular practice.

C.O.M.
May 15, 2012, 08:25 PM
I have always shot guns with both eyes open, unless I am shooting at distance and need a more precise aim. I always focus on my target and bring the gun to my eyes. I get a flash sight picture and fire. I spend about 70 -75% of my time shooting in this manner especially with my handguns.

I can get better hits using this method than a lot of people at the range who try hard to use the sights but they have a bad flinch and ruin any sight alignment they may have had prior to the trigger being pulled. I find that even when I focus on the sights I keep both eyes open when shooting my handguns. If you are shooting from 3-10 yards you should be able to get very good hits if you practice this way on a regular basis.

Ambishot
May 15, 2012, 09:54 PM
I have one: Using high magnification scopes, it's a real mind bender trying to make sense out of two images of apparent different sizes.

Try setting a your rifle scope on 10 or 12 power and keep both eyes open.... makes for a headache.

I shoot pistol, iron sighted rifles, and scout scoped rifles both eyes open. Conventional scoped rifles with large magnifications, dominant eye only.

This post ^^ also makes an important point. When using high magnification, having both eyes open is not necessarily the best means for target acquisition. Perhaps for initially spotting the animal (if you don't have a lower magnification setting on your scope), but not for acquiring the final sight picture.

As for shooting with both eyes open for pistol shooting, I fully agree. It is more beneficial to have both eyes acquiring targets.

Double Naught Spy
May 15, 2012, 11:52 PM
This post ^^ also makes an important point. When using high magnification, having both eyes open is not necessarily the best means for target acquisition. Perhaps for initially spotting the animal (if you don't have a lower magnification setting on your scope), but not for acquiring the final sight picture.

It depends on how you are trained, what you are used to, and how well you can separate the vision of each eye. As a strongly right eye dominant person, I don't find it to be a problem with shooting a scoped rifle with both eyes open and using my right eye in the scope. I suspect that the more one eye dominant you are, the lessd of a probelm that is.

If I shoot left handed, however, I sometimes have to close my right eye to switch dominance to the left.

Once again, the benefit is that it gives you a field of vision not seen in the scope. Generally speaking, I don't see much out of the left eye when shooting right handed unless something draws my attention, such as movement. I can switch between my R scope eye and L nonscope eye fairly easily when I am sighted. So I can do a quick L eye visual scan while keeping the rifle on target, without moving my head around.

With that said, I am completely dysfunctional with the Bindon aiming concept. I cannot meld two fields of view such that I can see the red dot from my R eye FOV superimposed on my l eye FOV.

Gossettc68
May 16, 2012, 08:56 PM
Like others have said before me, it does take practice. Especially if you've grown up ( Like I did ) in a environment where I was not taught properly how to shoot. I did not learn how to effectively hold/shoot a firearm until I was in my mid-twenties.

Heck, I still catch myself closing my left eye from time to time. Old habits are hard to kick.

echo7tango
May 18, 2012, 06:28 PM
I went to the range today on my lunch hour to test shooting with both eyes open. First time doing that – with interesting results. I shot 100 rounds. I haven't shot in a while; it has been over a year. I was way overdue.

Here are my results, with more info below: both eyes open and target (tgt) focus is worth exploring further, it works pretty well for me. My first-ever groups weren't too bad, and with practice I'm confident they'll get better and my speed will improve.

If you're inclined to argue against this, read the rest before you do, especially the note about why I cannot acquire the front sight (FS) with both eyes open. These results are mine and mine alone. I'm not about to start a shooting school and teach everyone to do it this way. In fact, I'm not going to tell anyone else to do it this way. These are preliminary results and I'll continue practicing.

I wear eyeglasses so I tested both with and without my glasses on, and also tgt focus and FS-focus, all four combinations (or permutations, if you will).

Targets: I set up two paper tgts identically, one each for 10' and 20'. On the back of each tgt paper I pasted 16 1" tgt spots to form a 4X4 grid, with each tgt spot about 8" from each other.

Shooting: No time constraints. The goal was to accurately acquire the tgt and establish good sight picture / sight alignment. My planned sequence of fire was to fire three rounds at each tgt spot, left-to-right and top-down in this manner: glasses on and tgt-focused @ 1st tgt spot; then glasses on and FS-focused @ 2nd tgt spot; repeat for 3rd and 4th tgt spots; then on the next row glasses off and do the same thing as in row 1. Repeat for rows 3 and 4. Then do the exact same thing but at 20' on the second tgt paper.

Note: Try as I might, I could not acquire the FS with both eyes open. It was too confusing for my brain to sort out the images. I'm pretty sure this is because I am usually right eye dominant (and I'm right handed), but at near distances my left eye is dominant. My left eye is nearsighted, and my right eye is astigmatic and is better for distant objects. At far distances, my right eye is clearly dominant, but I read with my left eye. For shooting, what I did instead of FS-focus with both eyes open, is FS-focus with left eye closed as I would normally shoot.

I tried with and without my eyeglasses because I need to make sure of how accurate I am in case I'm suddenly startled awake while sleeping at night and don't have time to get my eyeglasses. I hadn't done that before and talking with the guy at the range he suggested that. I'm glad he did, because I learned a lot from doing that.

Not able to FS-focus at all with both eyes open, I resorted to closing my left eye and shoot normally, focusing on the FS as I normally do.

Result best groupings:

#1) ¾" @10' and ¾" @20': glasses on, closed left eye
#2) 1" @10' and 2" @20': glasses off, closed left eye
#3) 1" @10' and 3" @20': glasses on, both eyes open, tgt-focus
#4) 2" @10' and 4" @20': glasses off, both eyes open, tgt-focus

Like I said, it has been a while since I've shot. I can do better than ¾" at 10'. Of course, closed left eye with FS-focus is naturally how I shoot, so no surprises with #1 and #2. But #3 is promising, and shooting with eyeglasses off (but safety glasses on) is also worth practicing for those night time surprises, if they ever happened.

It's time for more range time. I'll keep practicing with both eyes open. This is merely an initial assessment.

Sport45
May 18, 2012, 08:39 PM
Not able to FS-focus at all with both eyes open, I resorted to closing my left eye and shoot normally

Do you have to close one eye to read?

I haven't been able to aim with both eyes open, but as DNS mentioned above it's most likely because I have been closing my left eye for the better part of 40 years.

echo7tango
May 19, 2012, 01:01 AM
No, but it's not the same thing because the words on the page are at the same distance from the eye, so there's no parallax.

But with FS focus, my left eye is dominant because the FS is a nearby object. Parallax causes extra tgt images, which are in the range of my right eye that is dominant for far objects, and of the RS which is in the range of my near-sighted left eye that is dominant for near objects.

With tgt focus, my right eye is in control at all times. The extra images of the FS and RS, also caused by parallax, are readily ignored by my brain because they're seen better by my left eye. It's more natural to me because of the unique nature of my eyesight.

dyl
May 19, 2012, 10:31 AM
Consider closing 1 eye.

I don't mean to be the bad guy here, I'm just adding fuel for discussion.

Don't get mad at him for the heresy but Rob Pincus has a youtube video of his reasons why "both eyes open" may not be the gold standard in all situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUy46J9IAOM&feature=plcp

They're pretty convincing reasons.

Personally I still haven't abandoned training myself to use both eyes although it does speed things up to squint or close 1 eye.

I don't think the analogy of "do you read with 1 eye closed?" is applicable- the "target" in reading is only on the surface of the paper. No alignment beyond that surface is needed. We can read words on a page directly facing us or if we're off to the side, above, below, push the book away from us a bit, etc. If I hold my pistol in place and take a step to the left I can still see the surface of my front sight with both eyes but neither of my eyes are in alignment with the sights and target. It would be a bit reckless for me to shoot if I cannot verify that the sights themselves are aligned with the target. Your eyes converge on the subject of focus - they do not point in a parallel line. It's as if two laser beams were intersecting. Proper alignment is important.

Sport45
May 19, 2012, 10:49 AM
I only asked if he had to close one eye to read because he said he couldn't focus on the front sight with both eyes. It's about the same distance, so I wondered if he could focus on a page of text with both eyes.

When you focus on the front sight you HAVE to see two targets unless one eye isn't working. You also see two rear sights but they're much closer together, unless it's a peep sight not in the field of view of one eye.

I could understand how someone who has the target in focus with one eye and the sights in focus with the other would have troubles. I too, would recommend closing the eye that's not behind the sights. It's what I do as well. But it's the only method I've known.

dyl
May 19, 2012, 11:39 AM
Sport45, i was actually responding to an earlier post than yours, yours is a valid question!

it was

i was trying to think of a way to explain this to my wife, she's a squinter, i told her think about it honey ,you dont read a book with one eye open or drive your car squinting

and since that poster's method seemed to produce results it seems alright in the end. I was noting a subtlety.

animal
May 19, 2012, 11:58 AM
When you focus on the front sight you HAVE to see two targets
Not necessarily, imo … your eyes are each sending a "picture" to the brain, which overlays the images using the focal points of each as it’s reference. The brain decides which parts of the conflicting images in the background is "true"… problem is, the "decision" is a combination of conscious and unconscious selection… further complicated by gaps in the field of view where the brain "fills in" the image we see.

Learning to control the editing process of the image we see, is one of the goals of sight training, imo.
Further, teaching the brain to ignore the part of the image from non-dominant eye which conflicts with the image of the dominant eye can be done through training. This would result in the double image of the target or sight (depending on your focal point) effectively disappearing, or fading into the background. … like an image from peripheral vision : technically, it might still be there but it might as well not be.

echo7tango
May 20, 2012, 01:35 AM
Learning to control the editing process of the image we see, is one of the goals of sight training, imo.

Agree 100%, that's why I'll practice the 2-eye technique.

Further, teaching the brain to ignore the part of the image from non-dominant eye which conflicts with the image of the dominant eye can be done through training. This would result in the double image of the target or sight (depending on your focal point) effectively disappearing, or fading into the background. … like an image from peripheral vision : technically, it might still be there but it might as well not be.

That's what I struggle with, for FS-focus with both eyes open, because of the eye dominance I described earlier.

In the end, after a lot more practice, I may decide to stay with closing the left eye. I am accurate that way, so it's a situation where "it ain't broke so why fix it?"

echo7tango
May 20, 2012, 01:40 AM
Hey, Red Dog, what has been your experience as you try shooting with both eyes open? I wonder what you're trying, and what has / hasn't worked for you?

Constantine
May 20, 2012, 06:58 AM
I'm also from the school of both eyes open.

Best way to be! Unless you have one eye..

animal
May 20, 2012, 01:17 PM
The Pincus video - he makes a lot of good points, but to nit pick a little:

his first "X" diagram can lead to confusion, imo…
The problem is exposed by the lines he doesn’t draw: The sight and target are in a line perpendicular to a line drawn between the eyes (ok so far) BUT this "sight line" intersects the "eye line" between the eyes, rather than meeting the "eye line" at the dominant eye…. This skews the results of the lines of vision that he does draw and places the target in the never-never land between the lines of vision for each eye. He then doubles and moves the target image where it is inline with each sight line. I think it would be less confusing if he were to draw the target, both sights, and dominant eye in a straight line … then draw the line of sight from the non-dominant eye, through the front sight, to the false image.

He also says that a long gun is completely different because it is "attached to your face". I disagree... mainly because the pistol should be employed as if it were also attached to your face…. Imagine the pistol as a rifle with the sights mounted to the last 6" or so of the barrel. This makes for more training … oriented towards what some would call "muscle memory" to make sure the pistol stays inline with the dominant eye.

I think the video is leading towards a valid method of engaging a target. However, I don’t think his way of discounting an alternate method is valid.
IMHO, We are faced with a set of obstacles in training. Different methods of training are typically a matter of choosing ; which obstacles are ones to overcome, and which ones we must work with or compensate for.
I really don’t think one method of training fits for all people, because different people can have different insurmountable obstacles.

IMO," both eyes open" also makes the pistol selection critical … the ergonomics of the pistol must fit the user nearly perfectly so that it’s a "natural pointer" for the individual. There’s no such thing as a universal natural pointer. Slight variations in the hands, arms, and other bits of biology can radically change what "fits". Even slight changes in a pistol’s grip, balance, etc., can change it’s "pointing nature" with respect to an individual’s biology.
Personally speaking, there are several pistols that I really like, but would never consider carrying for protection, because they don't naturally "point" in my hand.

Red Dog
May 24, 2012, 04:23 PM
Been to the range trying this method twice.

All shots about 12ft.

This causes headaches.
Clear front sight fuzzy target = shots all over the place.
Clear target fuzzy front sight = shots all over the place.
I aim centermast and hit around the navel.
I had no consistency.
Tried to go slow and keep shooting form the same.
Paid attention to breathing patterns.

Finally:
No enjoyment, not happy with results.

Frank Ettin
May 24, 2012, 08:10 PM
...Clear front sight fuzzy target = shots all over the place.
Clear target fuzzy front sight = shots all over the place.
I aim centermast and hit around the navel.
I had no consistency.
....
Finally:
No enjoyment, not happy with results. My immediate reaction is that it sounds like more of trigger control problem than a sight alignment problem. The bullet will go where the front sight was when the gun fired, but without proper trigger control, you are moving the gun off target just as it fires.

The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking; and that helps you avoid jerking the trigger. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. No one can hold a gun absolutely still. Try not to worry about the wobble. Just focus on the front sight and concentrate on pressing the trigger smoothly to a surprise break.

Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer (or striker) falls.

Whether you hold the gun with one hand or two, and whether you use the sights or point shoot, if you don't have trigger control, your gun will not be in line with the part of the target you want to hit when the bullet leaves the barrel of your gun -- and you will miss. But if you have controlled the trigger properly, you will hit.

Think: front sight, press, surprise.

And also think about getting some good instruction.

Dragline45
May 24, 2012, 08:37 PM
There are some real ignorant posts here. Not everyone is built the same way, it is not even close to the same as "do you read with one eye?". A buddy of mine shoots with both eyes open because that is what is natural for him and it works. I am completely incapable of doing so, tried over and over again, it just doesn't work for me. My pistol instructor who I took a few classes with shoots in competitions all over the country, even he said he tried to train himself to shoot with both eyes open but no matter how hard he tries he just shoots a whole lot better with one eye closed. Try telling a lefty to use his right hand from now on.

dwright1951
May 25, 2012, 12:59 PM
Once you master both eyes open shooting try switching sides, if you are normally right handed try it left handed, whole nother skill set. Pistol is the easy one, rifle is next then shotgun is the hardest (at least to me). I've had to shoot several deer off my left shoulder (normally a righty).

pgdion
May 25, 2012, 01:18 PM
Hi RedDog,

Bummer about the outing, big bummer.

I wonder if it just won't work for all people. Shooting with both eyes open really counts on 1 eye being dominant and that one is the one used for shooting. The other just fills in the peripheral vision (and supplies a faint double image that can be dealt with, with some practice). I did some reading and it appears to be indeed the case that some people are neutral (neither eye is dominant, in fact there are varying degrees of eye dominance), I saw the term ambi-ocular used. If this is the case, I would think shooting with both eyes open would be impossible as their would not be a faint second image, but a true double image and depending on which one you go with, the shots may go left or right. I'm not sure, but it would seem to me that shooting both eyes open requires you to be dominant in 1 eye and the greater your eye dominance, then the easier it is to master this technique.


It probably isn't going to be right for everyone. If that's the case, I'd just shoot one eye closed and forget about it myself.

Ozzieman
May 28, 2012, 01:00 PM
I'm not sure, but it would seem to me that shooting both eyes open requires you to be dominant in 1 eye and the greater your eye dominance, then the easier it is to master this technique.

I think that pgdion has a good point there. For me it was training that got me past the difficult part of using both eyes when shooting. I'm at the point now that I can switch eyes and switch hands easily including being cross dominate.
For me it’s the larger field of vision and better depth perception that shooting with both open makes it worth training for.
Training turned out to be very easy. It was suggested by a good friend that used to ride trains with Harry Truman. Take a cheap pair of sun glasses and tape over one side. This allows you to keep the weak eye open and will help from squinting and at the same time allows a clear view of the sights.
From his suggestion and after several hundred rounds I took off the glasses and I found it easy to keep both open and easy to center the strong eye on the sights. I have been doing that for the past 30 years.
Try it yourself, take an unloaded gun and hold it up with one hand and keep both eyes open. You will see a double set of rear or front sights. Then just bring your weak hand in front of your weak eye, you don’t need to cover it, just block the sights. The sights will easily align without squinting or closing the weak eye.
For me where it really helps is with eye fatigue and also scopes like Aimpoint’s.
Personally I don’t think that it’s impossible for everyone, but it can take some training and practice. But I do feel that being able to shoot with both eyes open will make you a better shooter.

Concealed_Karen
May 28, 2012, 06:45 PM
Some VERY good discussion here and food for thought for my next trip to the range. I am a FS shooter but I agree with the thought "if I have time to aim, I will close my left eye. If I don't have time, I will keep them both open." I desperately need practice on my quick draw for the surprise defensive use. But if I am practicing for score, I contend that I will continue to use the method that feels most natural to me.

Thanks for all the video/instructional links - very enlightening!

publius
May 29, 2012, 10:24 AM
In my experience, You will usually just start shooting with both eyes open with experience. The same with shotguns, one day you will realize that you are not focusing on the bead but the target with both eyes open.

Red Dog
June 15, 2012, 01:33 PM
Another range session another attempt at this ...... not so good.

I wonder if eyeglasses could be causing my issues.

Strafer Gott
June 15, 2012, 02:13 PM
US Army teaches point shooting with BB guns, at least that was the training they used in '71. I think today I'd use Airsoft. Much easier to see your round.
The Army used hand thrown targets. You can use whatever you have laying around, and not just sky shots either. Tie a tether ball on a tree for a swinging target. It doesn't take that many sessions to see some real improvement. It sure makes small game handgun hunting more productive.