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aarondhgraham
May 4, 2012, 11:03 AM
It's just a point of curiosity to me.

As I understand it the C&R license is simply to aid in acquiring guns for your personal collection.

What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it,,,
Do you have to wait an amount of time before selling it to someone else?

Also, if you have a C&R license,,,
Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store?

Just curious is all.

Aarond

.

Cheapshooter
May 4, 2012, 11:16 AM
What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it,,,
Do you have to wait an amount of time before selling it to someone else?


You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection" as it says in the rules.
So yes you can sell one in order to replace it with another. There is no mention of having to hold it for a certain length of time. Although several same day, or short time acquisition/disposition in your bound book could raise a red flag if the BATF ever looks at them.

Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store?


Absolutely not!!! It is NOT a dealer's license, and acting as a dealer is not allowed. Trying to "get by" with skirting the laws jeopardizes the availability of the C&R license for everybody who uses it legally!

tobnpr
May 4, 2012, 05:26 PM
You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection" as it says in the rules.
So yes you can sell one in order to replace it with another.

Please provide a link to a source at BATF that states this, as it is nothing close to my understanding.

You can sell without "improving your collection", or "replacing it with another" from the regs that I have read. You cannot be engaged "in the business" of buying/selling firearms. From the BATF website, like I said, if you have other information from their site, please enlighten me.

Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

James K
May 4, 2012, 09:35 PM
No, you don't have to replace a gun you sell, but if your book shows too many (no, I don't know how many) sales to NON-licensees, you better be ready to explain. Or if you order ten thousand rifles on your C&R license, and sell them all in a week to non-licensees with Arab names, you better get a good lawyer.

Jim

Cheapshooter
May 4, 2012, 11:04 PM
Please provide a link to a source at BATF that states this, as it is nothing close to my understanding.
Sell one to replace it with another was probably not the right example.


[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

zxcvbob
May 4, 2012, 11:18 PM
As I understand it the C&R license is simply to aid in acquiring guns for your personal collection. What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it

Sell it or trade it. Don't make a habit of doing this because it might look suspicious.

Also, if you have a C&R license,,,
Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store? Just curious is all.
Absolutely not.

noelf2
May 5, 2012, 05:15 AM
Also, there's nothing wrong with buying several of the same qualifying gun/rifle for the purpose of keeping the most collectible and selling the others. Doing that too much could raise some red flags though.

madcratebuilder
May 5, 2012, 07:41 AM
Also, there's nothing wrong with buying several of the same qualifying gun/rifle for the purpose of keeping the most collectible and selling the others. Doing that too much could raise some red flags though.

I recall reading about a ATF ruling that this is not a acceptable practice.

If you buy X amount of qualifying gun/rifles with the INTENT of keeping only one and selling the remaining, puts you in “engaged in the business”. ATF uses INTENT as they see fit and it's up to the C&R holder to prove otherwise.

I know guys that do this often and I kind of doubt that all these even go on the books. Bad ju ju. I would not want to explain this to the ATF during a audit.

I've sold off C&R's as I changed direction of my collection or found a better example. I finally have over 100 lines filled out in my book. Keep your entries up to date and you should not have any problems with a audit.

From what I've heard C&R audits are not very harsh when ATF finds discrepancies (the first time). You really have to do some blatant violations to be in serious trouble.

ronz
May 6, 2012, 08:33 AM
You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection"

That’s what they said to me when I called them before I got my c&r a couple of months ago
So it’s probably one of the things there looking for if someone sells off a lot of guns in a short period of time
if a long time c&r collector sells off 5-10 guns they have collected over a long period of time in order to buy a real expensive one its ok
but if someone would buy and then resell a lot of guns just to make enough money to buy an expensive gun it wouldn’t be ok because they were actively trying to make a profit from the sales

tobnpr
May 6, 2012, 12:33 PM
Both excerpts quoted above say the same thing: "engaged in business" means "principal objective of livelihood and profit"

I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. You would need to be turning over a lot of guns- and making money from it- before you would fit into this category.

In this regard, it's no different than with non-C&R firearms. If you are somehow, able to buy weapons "on the cheap" with the intent of re-selling them for a profit, guess what...you're a "Dealer", and need the proper FFL.

Where that line is, I don't know, and I do think it would be interesting to find out if there is case history on this. But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...

If anyone knows of specifics, please post it up for us.

James K
May 6, 2012, 03:55 PM
Just FYI, the anti-gun gang has long had the C&R license in its sights and they are just waiting for a case of flagrant abuse to launch a campaign to get Congress to eliminate it.

So I urge all C&R holders to play by the rules. The non-licensee YOU sell a gun to might be the one whose actions mean the end of the C&R license and even more gun restrictions. Arguing that C&R guns are not the choice of terrorists or drug gangs is pointless - a 6.5mm Carcano is a C&R and the use of one of those almost resulted in a national ban on all guns.

Jim

Cheapshooter
May 6, 2012, 06:05 PM
Just FYI, the anti-gun gang has long had the C&R license in its sights and they are just waiting for a case of flagrant abuse to launch a campaign to get Congress to eliminate it.

So I urge all C&R holders to play by the rules. The non-licensee YOU sell a gun to might be the one whose actions mean the end of the C&R license and even more gun restrictions. Arguing that C&R guns are not the choice of terrorists or drug gangs is pointless - a 6.5mm Carcano is a C&R and the use of one of those almost resulted in a national ban on all guns.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee85/likilu94/thumbs.gif

But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...

Per YEAR? I think that might just be enough for them to take a real serious look at the C&R licensee!
If you wanna be your friends on the cheap gun source, get an 01 FFL and be done with it!

zxcvbob
May 6, 2012, 08:58 PM
If you wanna be your friends on-the-cheap gun source, get an 01 FFL and be done with it!

I'm planning to do that when I retire. A "kitchen table" FFL with no inventory and just do $20 transfers plus register as a distributor for Davidson's, Bud's, etc. And I'll be able to use the USPS to receive and ship handguns for my personal collection (which I can't do with a 03 FFL)

Hopefully GCA'68 will have been totally repealed or declared unconstitutional by then and ruin my plans.

Cheapshooter
May 7, 2012, 09:42 AM
I'm planning to do that when I retire. A "kitchen table" FFL with no inventory and just do $20 transfers plus register as a distributor for Davidson's, Bud's, etc. And I'll be able to use the USPS to receive and ship handguns for my personal collection (which I can't do with a 03 FFL)

Been thinking about the same thing. Have you looked into it yet? I have heard the BATF try real hard to make it as difficult as possible for someone to not have an actual storefront business.
Thought, as you, do transfers, and maybe have a few cheapies in stock for gun show tables.

zxcvbob
May 7, 2012, 12:10 PM
It's hopefully 10 years down the road for me, so I haven't really looked into it yet. The biggest hurdle (currently) is not the BATF directly, but local zoning ordinances, business licenses, etc. BATF will not issue a license unless you can show that all your ducks are in a row with regards to city, county, and state ordinances -- and if they [the ducks] are OK, the feds are easy to deal with.

I heard this from a local gunsmith who just got his 01 FFL in a residential neighborhood. Haven't verified it myself yet but it passes the smell test.

A lot can happen in 10 years.

hAkron
May 7, 2012, 08:58 PM
Here's a related question I've had recently (not trying to hijack the thread or anything). Say I have my C&R ffl and I have friends who also collect but don't have a C&R FFL, is it illegal or a straw purchase, or 'acting as a dealer' if I typically buy (sight unseen, via the Internet) 2 or more examples of a gun to take advantage of volume pricing (but low volume...2 or 3, not 20 or 30) with the intention of selling the worse of the two guns to a friend for no profit? I'm not buying it specifically for them, I'm buying two guns for me with the intention of dumping the less desirable one at cost.

Cheapshooter
May 7, 2012, 09:43 PM
hAkron, It's one of those things that some one, at some time could try to press. However as long as it isn't taken to the extreme it will probably never be challenged. A couple of dispositions during the 3 year term of a license won't raise a red flag. You are asked on your renewal form how many acquisitions/dispositions you have entered in the past three years.
Again, it all boils down to the fact that if you want to buy guns to sell to others it's best to get the dealers license and be done with it.

dogtown tom
May 7, 2012, 10:22 PM
Cheapshooter ....I have heard the BATF try real hard to make it as difficult as possible for someone to not have an actual storefront business...
On the contrary, ATF was extremely helpful every step of the way.

They could not care any less whether you are operating from your home or a storefront.

dogtown tom
May 7, 2012, 10:32 PM
hAkron .... Say I have my C&R ffl and I have friends who also collect but don't have a C&R FFL, is it illegal or a straw purchase, or 'acting as a dealer' if I typically buy (sight unseen, via the Internet) 2 or more examples of a gun to take advantage of volume pricing (but low volume...2 or 3, not 20 or 30) with the intention of selling the worse of the two guns to a friend for no profit? I'm not buying it specifically for them, I'm buying two guns for me with the intention of dumping the less desirable one at cost.
If you use your C&R to acquire firearms for others you violate Federal law. The 03FFL is for YOUR collection....not for enhancing your friends collection.

Those who use their C&R to take advantage of volume "discounts" are skating on thin ice. Buying a dozen, selling eleven and keeping one may be "collecting" in your mind but sure as heck looks like dealing to others.

As long as ATF doesn't check your books (or the books of the dealer who sold you those dozen guns) you'll likely never have a problem.

If you are caught your attorney fees will eclipse the few dollars you saved on that quantity discount.

Hog Red
May 7, 2012, 10:39 PM
the language the ATF uses couldn't be any more vague but why push the envelope. momma always said just do the right thing and you dont have to worry about it.

MarkDozier
May 8, 2012, 01:05 AM
I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.

gyvel
May 8, 2012, 05:47 AM
I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.

OK. Let's hear the "real deal" from you.

Don P
May 8, 2012, 07:14 AM
But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...

With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel

jsmaye
May 8, 2012, 08:13 AM
I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.

I'm surprised that this thread is as lengthy and repeated as it is.

"Don't use your 03FFL for dealing or purchasing for someone else. That is all."

tobnpr
May 8, 2012, 08:41 AM
With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel
___

Facts to back this up?
Not saying you're incorrect, I'm asking for the information to back up the assertion. My opinion is that it still depends on the circumstances, and whether the sales/purchases are done with the objective of profit, in mind.

If I buy a gun a month, shoot it, have a little fun with it, and then sell it for what I paid for it, and buy something else- all on my C&R; and make ZERO profits on the sales, how am I engaged in it for "the principal objective of livelihood and profit"?? There's a huge variety of C&R weapons. If I chose to buy some, shoot them, keep what I liked and sell the rest at little or no profit, I cannot see how that would run afoul of the ATF regs as I've read them.

Cheapshooter
May 8, 2012, 10:12 AM
My opinion is that it still depends on the circumstances, and whether the sales/purchases are done with the objective of profit, in mind.

And if a gun grabbing BATF agent targets you, and a liberal gun grabbing prosecutor follows up on the case you and your $100 per hour lawyer can argue that point in front of some liberal judge with an anti gun biased jury listening. Maybe, maybe not. Just not worth pushing the envelope on "your opinion".
Each to his own opinion, and actually a mute point as far as I'm concerned.
....................................http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii385/bobwehnert/smile-1.gif....................

dogtown tom
May 8, 2012, 10:56 PM
tobnpr
If I buy a gun a month, shoot it, have a little fun with it, and then sell it for what I paid for it, and buy something else- all on my C&R; and make ZERO profits on the sales, how am I engaged in it for "the principal objective of livelihood and profit"?? There's a huge variety of C&R weapons. If I chose to buy some, shoot them, keep what I liked and sell the rest at little or no profit, I cannot see how that would run afoul of the ATF regs as I've read them.

ATF doesn't care if you earned a profit or not.....that isn't a crime.

Repetitive buying and selling is what they consider as dealing in firearms.

Don P
May 11, 2012, 08:33 AM
Thanks dogtowm tom for expressing what I failed to. Buying and selling is not what anyone would consider collecting now is it?
Definition of collector;
a person or thing that collects; specif,,a) a person who collects stamps, books,etc, as a hobby
I'll add collecting C&R firearms.
The FFL-03 states it is for "collecting" so there for buying and selling is NOT collecting is it?? I think not.
Just my opinion, collecting means buying and "keeping" buying and selling is dealing.
Used car dealer, gun shop, new car dealer, stores in general buy and sell hence dealers.
If you thing we are wrong by all means give it a whirl buying and selling C&R firearms. I truly would love to be there upon the ATF's visit when you explain why you purchased X number of C&R firearms and your bound book shows them going right back out the door.

Taken from post #3
A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

I believe that buying and selling 1 C&R a month would qualify you as a dealer

magnumPi
May 23, 2012, 07:16 AM
actually, collecting doesn't mean that you never, never, ever sell ANYTHING. That's called "hoarding"

Collectors are always trying to improve their collections, replacing that "good" condition Radom pistol with an "excellent" condition one for example. I personally don't have the space or money to keep every gun I have ever bought.
I want the best examples of what I collect to stay in my collection. So selling a couple of average condition Mosins to raise funds to buy that nice Mosin sniper rifle does not mean that I am a dealer.
If I had a large and varied collection, that just might mean a gun or so a month.
And when you find a dealer that can survive on less than say, $100 a month, never seems to reduce any inventory, and only buys for himself, then you can call me a dealer

Saying that selling one gun a month automatically makes you a dealer, is like saying that anytime anyone shoots someone it's automatically 1st degree murder. No self defense, act of war, tragic accident...

zxcvbob
May 23, 2012, 09:15 AM
Buying an extra gun and selling it at cost to your buddy once or twice over the years could hardly classify you as a "dealer", but is still selling outside the scope of your license.

Would you get caught, and if you did would you get in trouble? Do you feel lucky?

Winchester_73
May 23, 2012, 09:35 AM
I believe that buying and selling 1 C&R a month would qualify you as a dealer

I doubt it. Maybe if you did it for 36 mos in a row or something, but on the other hand, it was ONE GUN every 30 days. A big part of it is how you dispose of it and how much money you made on it. Another issue would be the type of gun. Its obvious unless you were dealing in Colt SAAs and making say $1000 to $2000 per gun, once per month, you could NOT be viewed as making a "livelihood" by selling one per month.

I get tired of reading how the ATF is God-like, or the men in black, or that they are superhuman. I have my C&R and I don't even consider such things as "I just sold 2, but I bought 5, oh my, what if they come to get me" They have bigger things to worry about than you paranoid collectors in this thread. As Jim K said, for flagrant moves, its only a matter of time. For everyone else, do what you do until you are told to stop. They'd have a tough time proving that I intended to profit when I bought guns with the money I got and I've kept a ton of what I bought.

IIRC I've sold approx 20% of my C&R purchases since I got the license less than 2 years ago. And no, I don't think I did anything wrong and yes I will continue to "improve my collection".

Cheapshooter
May 23, 2012, 04:05 PM
They'd have a tough time proving that I intended to profit when I bought guns with the money I got and I've kept a ton of what I bought.

Again, "profit" isn't the issue. It's what ever they can consider dealing. Buying, and selling. If it is truly improving your collection there is no problem. If it is getting a good deal for your buddy, they can call it dealing. Do I think they are out there lurking around the corner looking for the C&R FFL that occasionally sells off some of his guns? No. Do I think that some day depending on the political climate they will be doing everything possible to harass gun owners? Darn right!!!

Winchester_73
May 23, 2012, 08:28 PM
Again, "profit" isn't the issue. It's what ever they can consider dealing. Buying, and selling. If it is truly improving your collection there is no problem.

Maybe you should actually read the regulations. "Profit" is something that separates the 01 from the 03 FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

So basically, by the amount of profit, an ATF agent could make a strong argument that someone is attempting to make a "livelihood". Read below:

(Keep in mind that the definitions are vague, so that they can be used against anyone doing anything. If they had concrete numbers and defintions, everyone would skate around them.)


Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?

No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

Cheapshooter
May 23, 2012, 09:02 PM
So in your mind buying C&R firearms with the intention of selling them to others at your cost doesn't violate the intent of the regulations? After all, that was the question in the original post.
The word "profit" then could be a technicality, or loophole in the regulations to allow 03 license holders to buy all the guns their friends want. Lots of loopholes have sent people to federal bed and breakfasts. I don't plan on taking the chance my self.

Winchester_73
May 23, 2012, 09:11 PM
So in your mind buying C&R firearms with the intention of selling them to others at your cost doesn't violate the intent of the regulations? After all, that was the question in the original post.
The word "profit" then could be a technicality, or loophole in the regulations to allow 03 license holders to buy all the guns their friends want. Lots of loopholes have sent people to federal bed and breakfasts. I don't plan on taking the chance my self.

I respect that opinion. I was simply saying its NOT ok to make a ton of money which your prior posts lead me to believe. Of course, I do think its NOT ok to buy for your friend which is basically straw purchasing using a C&R (in a way).

ronz
May 24, 2012, 03:21 AM
I called them and there are some criteria that they are looking for
Length of ownership is one thing she specifically said “they don’t want to see stuff sold within a year without a reason she said if you buy something and you really don’t like it go ahead and sell it but don’t make a habit of it”
But it’s all a grey area each case is handled on its own
The license is designed to enhance your collection not to enable you to deal in firearms
Making a profit or not
If someone bought a bunch of m-44 k-98 or whatever 5-6 years ago and sells 6 of them making $300+ on each one for $2000 total profit and then uses the money to buy a luger or something else to enhance their collection not one red flag will be raised everything was done in the process of being a firearms collector
If you use your license to buy guns for your friends profit or not you are not engaging in the activity of collecting you are using your c&r like a dealer’s license
If caught at best you will get your peepee slapped at worst you could ruin it for the rest of us
I was really surprised as how friendly and helpful they were when I called
Best thing would be to call them and ask first
Because if you do anything wrong I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes

jsmaye
May 24, 2012, 09:04 AM
Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.

Slamfire
May 24, 2012, 09:21 AM
Call up your local ATF and talk to them about this.

I have.

If they decide you are using your Collector's FFL in an inappropriate fashion, it won't matter what you think, it will be gone.

And if you continue to sell firearms in a way that they decide is for business, well this guy is lucky he did not go to jail, but he lost 300 weapons and $38 K in cash. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/129331478.html

The offense carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine

ronz
May 24, 2012, 10:15 AM
Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.
For the record I called them before the thread even started
And I guess your right its stupid to ask the same people who will prosecute you if what you are doing is legal your way better off waiting so you can say
I didn’t know I couldn’t do that

Cheapshooter
May 24, 2012, 10:18 AM
Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.

Nothing "speculative" or "third person" about what I said all along. Pretty much zactly as ronz reported. You can't use your C&R to buy guns for your friends.....Period!!!

jsmaye
May 25, 2012, 08:25 AM
Don't take it personally - unless that's what you were doing, my post wasn't directed at you.

samsmix
May 27, 2012, 02:38 AM
I'm not a C&R licensee...yet. But I have been following this thread from the start and there is one thing I am REALLY dying to hear:

MarkDozier, you stepped on your own willie a while back and got called out on it. When were you going to tell all of these nice folks how it's done? I for one can't wait.


I should say right now that I have NO hard feelings whatsoever towards Mr. Dozier. It's just that I've watched this situation develop, and I want to see the rest of the story.

Nagants at ten paces anyone? :D

madcratebuilder
May 27, 2012, 07:36 AM
Quote:
But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...


With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel

That is not correct Don. I sell two or three C&R's every month. I buy three or four C&R's every month. Most sales show a very small profit, a few show a lot.

I had over 150 C&R qualified fire arms when I obtained my C&R FFL so I may be in a unique situation. I've taken my bound book to the local ATF office and discussed buying and selling. Bottom line, as long as I'm not buying with the intent to sell, it's A-OK.

ETA: If you want to buy and sell a few guns each month then do not get a FFL. A bud of mine is a wheeler dealer in C&R's and ammo. ATF has talked to him more than once. He is fine as long as his sales meet legal requirements. He buys/sells 60-80 guns a year. He basically tells ATF this is his hobby, he does not make any money from it(key) and to screw off. So far, it's worked.:rolleyes:

tobnpr
May 27, 2012, 02:17 PM
Yeah, well, there are those here that think differently, and we're not gonna change their minds...and nor are they going to change mine.

Those words "principal objective of livelihood and profit" are black and white...

If there's little or no profit, it's not a "business"...

But what the hell do I know of the definition of a "business" , with a B.S. in Commerce...

akguy1985
May 30, 2012, 04:13 AM
You can sell to upgrade or improve your collection but cant sell as a business. Thats the "gray" area. When i renewed by C&R in 2009 one of the questions was how many did you sell or disposess in the 3 year period? Well I answered truthfully and the ATF never said a word or batted an eye.

Once Fired
May 31, 2012, 01:28 AM
Hi all

If I already possess an FFL Type 3 C&R license, is there any benefit in terms of a future application for other FFL license types?

Is there a more streamlined process, since you're already "in the system"?

I would like to buy for myself. I would also like to pave the road for an easier approval process later as I *hope* to transition from hobby to business at some point in the future. What I have right now is a desire to collect, and that is all. However, if that streamlining would be a perk I could gain by having the C&R in force when I apply for a different type, it would be worth it later.

I am also very curious about any of the the FFL licenses when operating from home. I am trying to understand what the zoning requirements are for my area, as that seems to be the least clear component of the process.

ZAG

sonick808
May 31, 2012, 04:46 AM
C&R is for collecting, not for test driving rifles. It's assumed you are involved enough in the research "curio and relic" portion of collecting that you won't have a need to release that frequently from your collection.

The intent of the law is far more important to consider than the verbosity. Intent.

No way in hell I would sell 12 rifles from a C&R collection in a year, or 5 years for that matter. In fact, I choose to avoid it altogether. If I imagine myself in an agent's shoes, I would find 12 sales per year highly suspicious, and I'm far from uptight. YMMV, just my opinion here.

Winchester_73
May 31, 2012, 10:00 AM
No way in hell I would sell 12 rifles from a C&R collection in a year, or 5 years for that matter. In fact, I choose to avoid it altogether. If I imagine myself in an agent's shoes, I would find 12 sales per year highly suspicious, and I'm far from uptight.

Oh would you? What if the C&R holder purchased 60 and sold 12? There is no "set number" for any of this.

This topic is far from cut and dry. There are too many variables here to deal with absolutes. The only thing that is for sure is that the ATF will do what they want regarding this stuff. Beyond our own interpetation of the rules / laws, it is theirs that is most important.

sonick808
May 31, 2012, 11:43 AM
Like I said, and I'll say it again, that's MY opinion. The most important thing remains: Intent.

rburch
May 31, 2012, 03:06 PM
Slightly different topic, anyone have ATF's regs on buying Gifts with your C&R?

My lil Brother just Graduated High School, and I was thinking of buying him a Mosin.

Would I run into issues buying something I didn't intend to keep with my C&R?

dbldblu
May 31, 2012, 06:41 PM
If you let your C&R expire, you can sell all your collection. You can sell to private parties in your state (most states) and your can sell out of state by using an FFL. This suggests that while you hold a C&R, you should be able to sell any or all by going through a regular FFL, doesn't it? I don't know, I am asking as a question. This might be helpful if one wanted to get out of collecting "A" by selling them all and collect "B" instead. This might be a safer technique.

It seems that there should be a distinction between selling to another collector or private party versus selling to (or through) a regular FFL.

Has anyone asked ATF about this.