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Young.Gun.612
May 3, 2012, 02:38 PM
I don't get it. There are NFA weapons classified as curios or relics, but you still need to deal with all the hassle and rigamaroll of NFA paperwork. So what, if any, are the advantages of having an 03FFL when dealing with these guns?

Don H
May 3, 2012, 02:51 PM
As I recall, with an 03 FFL, the C&R NFA weapons can be delivered directly to your door without going through an intermediate dealer.

Young.Gun.612
May 3, 2012, 03:21 PM
Ok, so if I were to do an interstate transfer of a c&r machine gun, I could do the paperwork myself, get the tax stamp, then have it shipped directly to me? I dunno, I guess I don't understand either process well enough to get the differences?

carguychris
May 3, 2012, 03:49 PM
The way I understand it is that you don't have to pay for a second tax stamp to transfer the C&R NFA gun to a Class III dealer in your state of residence before it can be transferred to you. IOW one tax stamp rather than two. :)

Hardcase
May 4, 2012, 12:14 PM
Besides the break from the double tax, there's also the time issue. The ATF reviews each transfer separately and they must be done sequentially. So, in the case of a non-C&R transfer, the dealer applies for the transfer and waits for ATF approval. Once it's approved and the transfer to your dealer takes place, then you apply for a transfer and wait again.

Last time I checked (just for curiosity's sake - I don't collect NFA guns), the wait time was four or five months per transfer.

Young.Gun.612
May 4, 2012, 12:23 PM
Ok, so let's step aside from the c&r portion for a moment. If an ordinary person wants a machine gun, they have to pay TWO transfer taxes at $200/pop?! In that case i definitely see the advantage!

Hardcase
May 4, 2012, 02:48 PM
Yes, any time the transfer involves a dealer, there are two tax stamps - one for the dealer to take possession of the firearm from the first party and one for the purchaser to take possession from the dealer.

I suppose that if a guy is buying a $10,000 or $15,000 machine gun, the extra $200 isn't such a big deal (other than on principle), but the extra 5 months would really bug the crap out of me.

Hardcase
May 4, 2012, 02:52 PM
Oh, there is also another category of firearms - those that have been removed from the NFA list and put on the C&R list. If you look in The Book, you'll see a bunch of short-barreled rifles, mostly Winchesters, that have been listed by serial number. They're factory SBRs whose owners have petitioned the ATF for removal from NFA status. They're exempt from the NFA.

There are probably other examples, but since I drool over Winchesters, that's what caught my eye.

James K
May 4, 2012, 03:59 PM
If you have a C&R FFL (03 FFL) any C&R firearm can be shipped or delivered directly to you by anyone without going through a dealer in your state. That includes NFA firearms that are C&R, like a WWII Thompson SMG. The seller has to do the Form 4. Either party can write the check to pay the tax.

Jim

Young.Gun.612
May 4, 2012, 08:46 PM
Ok, i think I'm hip to it now. I didn't realize there were 2 transfer taxes for an interstate nfa sale.

So im clear, a hypothetical:

I live in Minnesota, and a guy in Indiana has a WW2 Thompson that i just have to have. I pay the $200, ATF says ok, then he ships said smg directly to me? And without the c&r, he would have to ship to another class 3 in minnesota who would then transfer to me after another $200 PLUS more waiting time?

James K
May 4, 2012, 09:07 PM
Correct, except he has to initiate the Form 4 since he (the transferor) has to sign it. Then he sends the Form 4 to you (the transferee), you get the photo and fingerprints, fill out the rest of the form and send it all in along with your check. (If the seller sends you his check, he just adds the $200 to the cost of the gun, so it all amounts to the same thing.)

They return the approved form to him (the transferor), not to you. He then ships/brings the gun to you along with the original of the Form 4, which then becomes your registration paper. Keep the original in a safe place, like a bank deposit box; make one or more copies to carry with you when you are in possession of the gun. If he is going to bring the gun to you, he should send a letter to BATFE saying that he will be transporting the gun interstate and make sure there are no problems in intervening states.

The cost and means of payment for the gun are irrelevant to BATFE; it can even be a gift, they don't care. (That is why they use the terms "transferor" and "transferee" instead of seller and buyer.)

Jim

saands
May 6, 2012, 01:25 PM
Just ran into this advantage as well:

Information obtained from the ATF National Firearms Handbook
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/

Section 13.8. Requesting permission to transport certain firearms in interstate or foreign commerce.
A person, other than an FFL/SOT, may not lawfully transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, without prior written approval of ATF, specifically the NFA Branch.214 For definitions of these firearms and devices, refer to 27 CFR 478.11. Licensed collectors are not required to obtain such approval if the firearms and devices being transported are “curio or relic” firearms under the GCA.

So it appears that there are also fewer transport limitations if it (and you) are C&R.

Saands

James K
May 6, 2012, 03:44 PM
Note though that that applies to licensed collectors transporting NFA firearms, not to a transferor transporting/delivering a firearm TO a licensed collector, which was the situation I mentioned.

Jim

saands
May 6, 2012, 04:03 PM
Note though that that applies to licensed collectors transporting NFA firearms, not to a transferor transporting/delivering a firearm TO a licensed collector, which was the situation I mentioned.

Absolutely! I'm starting to plan my move to a place where I can finally even consider Class 3 fun, so I am not an authority by any stretch of the imagination. My intent was to point out that once you had the C&R item, it appeared that there were fewer restrictions for C&R holders in terms of transporting said item. In big states, that might not be such an advantage, but in small states it could be a very nice feature, in deed.

Saands

James K
May 6, 2012, 04:16 PM
Unfortunately, some states don't recognize the C&R license and consider its holder an unlicensed individual, subject to all the same laws as any non-licensee. That has gradually been changing, but caution needs to be exercised when transporting firearms into/through anti-gun states. And of course, no kind of federal license overrides state or local laws on carrying concealed weapons or having a weapon accessible to a person in a car.

Jim

Young.Gun.612
May 6, 2012, 04:48 PM
So theres really no advantage for intrastate transfers, just interstate?

gandog56
May 6, 2012, 05:08 PM
Was there some part of paying the tax twice you still don't get?

Unless there's some part I'M missing here.....