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View Full Version : Friday Feral Field Lion DOWN!!! Called in... NO PICS...


hogdogs
April 30, 2012, 08:50 AM
*DISCLAIMER... I NO LONGER POST PICS OF MY "CAT KILLS" SINCE SOME THINK IT IS CRUEL TO PROTECT MY STATE'S NATURAL RESOURCES!!!

Well Friday I had been out to the farm my dad is on and had struck out bassin'... We shot a few tubes of .22lr thru my Winchester 190 (round-a-bout acquired from a recently died viet-nam vet) and several thru my dad's new Henry carbine .22.

After wifey got home I was wanderin' around lookin' for a late workin' tree rat but all was quiet in the tree tops...

Decided to make a walk to the barn and make sure no feral cats had moved back in yet.... None stirred in there with a few of my "mouth squeaks" I have done since 6 or 7 years old...

Stood in the back opening (door fell off years ago) fired up a smoke and gave a quick series of squeaks... Not one pull on the cigg was complete and I see what looks like a little black "Scotty dog" lookin' black head top and ears, literally, bounding in from the north east corner of my 5 acre spread...

I DO NOT SHOOT LOOSE DOGS!!!! But a cat has a short lifespan on my place... Our ecology cannot support their highly efficient and indiscriminate predation...

One real fast squeak series and silence... Critter sits down to figger out where it went and gives me 100% positive ID on a long hair pure black cat at 75-85 feet...

Leveled the irons on CoM front on and laid to the trigger... BANG FLOP... Field Lion vanishes for a split second then the fluffy tail stood straight up and gave me the sign that a follow up shot was not needed...

If a person wishes to own exoctic pets, they need to keep them in the house or at least in their own yard...

Florida offers no protection for these vermin and evens considers them to be an "non-native predatory specie"....

I just wish there were many more with my short tolerance of these nasty killers of wildlife...

Brent

Hansam
April 30, 2012, 02:36 PM
Maybe I'm going to be the only person who will respond to you maybe not. Here goes anyway.

First off:

Good job with the cat!

I've been trying my best to keep the feral cat population down in my area too. Every day I sweep the fields to the north and west of me to see if there are any signs of cat activity. So far all has been quiet around me for the last couple weeks. I take that as a good thing.

Now about loose dogs - I don't shoot loose dogs on sight however if they are being destructive with my property and I can't chase them off I WILL shoot them. Preservation of my personal property is more important than someone else's pet that they couldn't control. Same goes for my family. I've already had to shoot a dog because it was advancing menacingly on my children while on my property. Yes the dog had a collar and yes the collar had a phone number (which I called after the dog had been shot and died) but no way was I going to let that thing attack my kids or be attacked myself while I tried to read its tags. I have young children to protect and that will always be my choice over the life of a dog.

I'm an amateur dog trainer (a hobby that happens to help support my shooting interests) and as such I firmly believe that when it comes to dogs if they run off and are running amok its entirely the owner's fault. The same goes for cats. As a pet owner myself if my dogs ran amok and endangered other people's safety and/or property I'd hold no ill will against them if they shot and killed my dogs... those dogs' deaths would be my fault and nobody else's. I have no cats so I can't say that about cats but if I DID own them I am sure I could say that about them too.

This topic goes far beyond just protecting our natural resources (which feral cats and dogs are huge threats to) but also about pet owners actually being responsible and maintaining control over their pets. Cats should ONLY be indoor animals and dogs must be properly trained and that training needs to be maintained so as to have a 100% recall on dogs so they DON'T run away. I won't accept people telling me that some dogs just won't come back. While I train primarily bird dogs and retrievers I have also obedience trained many other types of dogs. I've worked with breeds ranging from chihuahuas to pit bulls to mastiffs, wolfhounds, german shepherds, huskies and other popular breeds. Every one of them can be trained to a 100% recall. If I can train a dog to come back on command even when tempted away with bacon then its possible.

All feral cats on my property are eliminated with prejudice. Friendly dogs are captured and relinquished to the county authorities. Unfriendly dogs are also eliminated with prejudice on my property.

Once again good job protecting your natural resources. I for one do not consider it cruelty.

BoogieMan
April 30, 2012, 02:48 PM
You tell a great hunting story. Good job with the cats, but I would love to hear about using a MUCH larger round. No sense in letting them suffer. Maybe a .460 S&W or a 165 BT out of a 30-06. I know its to much but I beleive in being extra humane.:D

hogdogs
April 30, 2012, 02:55 PM
This being my first semi-auto .22 in 20 years, I considered goin' for a true "double tap" but decided not to as I am aware that I can make the nickel work just as well as a dime.

I will also make decisions to handle dog issues but it is so rare for one to bother me...

If one gets too skinny, I will get Junior to lasso it up and haul it to the unwanted pet disposal center...

Brent

Tuzo
April 30, 2012, 05:26 PM
Keeping shooting feral cats.

University of Nebraska study estimates $17B damages to bird populations inflicted by feral cats. There may be flaws in the study but even if the estimate is off by minus 50%, it is still a substantial degree of damage.

Groups that advocate neutering and spaying of feral cats may solve the over population problem. But these treated cats still hunt and kill wild birds.

Hogdogs, keeping shooting these feral cat critters and please post an occasional trophy photo.

mnhntr
April 30, 2012, 05:27 PM
Good to hear there are others who protect the wildlife from idiot cat owners loose cats. I take pride in the fact that the neighbors know where to come if a barn cat had not made it home in a while. Usually it is a 12 gauge, 45acp, or .223, but whatever I have on had works.

Buzzcook
April 30, 2012, 06:59 PM
Good job with the cats, but I would love to hear about using a MUCH larger round.

Here ya go.
http://www.buckstix.com/CoehornMortarHunt.htm

langenc
April 30, 2012, 07:15 PM
Groups that advocate neutering and spaying of feral cats may solve the over population problem. But these treated cats still hunt and kill wild birds.
From post #5

Those animals eat and kill w/ claws/teeth not their reproductive organs. Any trapper can tell you that.

JerryM
April 30, 2012, 07:25 PM
Both feral cats and dogs need to be destroyed.
Jerry

Art Eatman
April 30, 2012, 07:48 PM
Conclusions from a State of Wisconsin study, some 20 years back or thereabouts:

A feral cat will kill some 100 songbirds per year, give or take a few.

The feral cat population in Wisconsin was estimated at one million, give or take a few.

Even if it's wrong by an order of magnitude, it's still ten million songbirds.

Here in south Georgia, about six or eight years back, the animal-shelter folks did a cat-trapping program near a neighbor's house "out in the country". 72 feral cats were trapped and taken to the shelter. I thus don't really argue with the larger number for Wisconsin.

Kimbertron
April 30, 2012, 08:27 PM
I don't think I could personally shoot a cat or a dog but one thing that I cant stand is out of control pets. Between my fiance my mother and I we have 6 dogs and 2 cats. The dogs are outdoors and fenced in (accept for the little fluffy one, he sleeps under the couch) and the cats stay inside. Owners that blame the dog for getting out or think because cats don't kill people that they should be let out frustrate me to no end. I really sucks that people have to shoot an animal because the owner couldn't do what they are supposed to do. I guess I just restated what everyone is saying but it really grinds my gears lol.

Hansam
April 30, 2012, 08:33 PM
Conclusions from a State of Wisconsin study, some 20 years back or thereabouts:

A feral cat will kill some 100 songbirds per year, give or take a few.

The feral cat population in Wisconsin was estimated at one million, give or take a few.

Even if it's wrong by an order of magnitude, it's still ten million songbirds.

Excluding the past couple of weeks I killed on average 1 feral cat a day since the beginning of the year. That's right, 1 feral cat a day! You do the math. I believe now I may have made a large enough impact in the population early enough in the year that this year the cat problem (at least in my neck of the woods) won't be so large. Judging by the fact that I haven't seen a cat or signs of another cat in the area makes me believe this just might be true. Of course I might just be dreaming and I'll wake up to find yet another feral cat stalking birds in the early morning.

In comparison I "captured" a stray mutt dog (more like it came to me and I just clipped one of my dog's tie-out to it's already existing collar) and that dog's owner was happy to have him back. That was in February. My wife told me she had a stray golden retriever walk up to her a couple weeks back and she was able to pet it but she couldn't get it to sit still long enough to put a collar on it for a tie-out or leash. That dog walked off while she was calling the county LE and she never saw it again.

So how many cats did I encounter vs. stray dogs? Feral cats in WI are a huge problem but so many people call me a monster and cruel and cold hearted when they find out I shoot feral cats on sight. They say I should trap, spay/neuter and release them. I say then I'm still letting them go kill wildlife.

EDIT: I forgot to mention I talked to more than a few vets and they won't spay/neuter a cat for free. Thus people are telling me I should trap these little monsters, pay for their spay/neuter, and release them so they can continue killing off song birds and other small animals for the remainder of their natural lives. No thanks! I'm going to continue to contribute to the decline of the feral cat population in my neck of the woods... and anyone else who has a feral cat problem that asks me for help.

FrankenMauser
May 1, 2012, 12:32 AM
If they don't belong, they don't belong. I don't care if it's a family pet or a feral.
And, yes, I'm talking about dogs, in particular. ;)

Let your scruffy animal cause problems on my property, be it a cat, dog, snake, cockroach, or llama.... and it's not going back under its own power.
I don't shoot on sight, but I also don't hesitate just because the destructive mammal happens to have a collar. A problem animal is a problem animal. I don't make exceptions, just because it happens to be named "Captain Brownie".

Your property is your business.
My property is my business.
Don't let them mix under the wrong terms. (Yes, I expect the same in return; and don't hold it against my neighbors.)

gyvel
May 1, 2012, 12:33 AM
This is a another double edged sword situation. While I'm no great fan of cats, I tolerate them, and have even had one or two over the decades that I actually liked a little bit.

Agreed, cats kill birds, which makes me very angry; On the other hand, cats also kill rodents, which are causing me big problems since my last remaining cat fell prey to the coyotes. Rodents are also very destructive and the cats I had around the place did a fair job in keeping them under control.

Mice are causing destruction in my workshop (including damge to some gun related items I had stored), gophers are killing my trees, and some unknown rodent just did $500.00 damage to the wiring in my month old car. I can't import snakes fast enough to take care of the problem, and poison is out of the question, so I have to resort to cats.

Be careful what you do with cats. You may be stepping on your whatzit if you're not carried away.

Hansam
May 1, 2012, 07:12 AM
There are some small breed dogs that are fantastic mousers and rodent killers. A friend of mine has two rat terriers that live in his workshop who kill mice and other varmints that get in there as effectively as cats do. They do not however leave his work yard and as such are not threats to the ecosystem. Their jobs are to free roam the workshop and kill rodents. The only problem with this is that he has to constantly deworm those two dogs because they also eat the majority of the rodents they kill.

So far they've kept his workshop rodent free for over a decade and have even killed a good number of coons as well.

Oh and I was wrong about the population of cats in my area - I thought perhaps I'd wiped them out. I was very wrong. I was out with my dogs this morning and spied one stalking something in my field about 100yds away from me. So at 0600 or so (more like 0610) I put down another feral feline. I definitely didn't enjoy having to bury a cat so early in the morning though. The thing is I could have sworn I had seen the tail of yet another cat scampering off into the underbrush as I was walking back home from burying the cat I'd just shot. I was hoping that I'd eliminated all the ferals in my area.

So 20 yrs ago WI had estimated some 1,000,000 feral cats were living in WI then. The way that cats reproduce and seeing how many there were then what do you believe the population of feral cats in WI is now? How many of these cats do you think are going to wander onto my property in search of prey?

hogdogs
May 1, 2012, 09:32 AM
Fortunately for me, I have enuff native predator activity in the area...

I have a known fox pair in the vicinity for several years...

I also have non-venomous snakes I see and the venomous ones I do not see (if seen I remove the threat to the dogs)...

Coons and possums cover a little predation duty too...

I do have 'yote population(s) as well but not often right on top of my place as I always have several dogs on chains with territorial barks...

My own 5 acre piece of peace and serenity :D Is handled by 4 total indoor dogs that freely roam my place... 3 of these are of size and stature and mindset to hunt down what they see as a threat which includes every songbird and squirrel they see... They will run full bore with collar tags jingling for a hunert yards to try and pick off a mocking bird but it is a rare instance that any of these dogs gets a kill... 2 together sometimes gets a squirrel...

My dogs are not allowed to step onto pavement when a passerby is passing or it is considered a heinous sign of aggression by me and currently none get within 50 feet of the road when a nice family walks 2 full grown Golden Retrievers and 2 younger smaller dogs... Owners have no idea how I get these dogs so well trained. I just don't tolerate "transgressions" against man or beast without real provocation! Then they know they are free to unleash all they have.

Currently 2 of these same indoor/outdoor dogs are pushing their luck IMHO as they "go for a stroll" each morning and may not be back for a couple hours... Both are spayed gyps so no risk of unwanted "Handy and Ready" lines of pups:D I figger, they have found a yard dog to visit but if they don't come home, I can guess they got called to the carpet for "trespassing"...

I love a cuddly friendly cat as much or more than any cat lover out there... Even had a few but won't tolerate a litterbox. In the house I consider them an exotic pet no different than a tiger or an imported predator snake...

My last try at a house cat ended when the little bugger snuck out the door and was carhit in front of my house by time work ended... Used the opportunity to show my, then, very young children what happens when you get to close to the road...

Brent

Art Eatman
May 1, 2012, 10:38 AM
After I moved back to a family place near Austin in 1968, some 300 acres, I kept an eye out for feral cats and dogs. No mercy for the feral cats. We usually had a couple of house cats, but they were mostly indoor critters. (One was so housebroken, he'd mew to come in to use the sandbox.)

I'd cut slack for a stray dog with a collar. Dogs roam, and not all dogs are problems. But if I saw a dog without a collar, and particularly if he were chasing a deer, too bad, so sad.

rickyrick
May 1, 2012, 11:06 AM
My buddy puts out a pot full of food every day for the cats on his farm and has no problem, I wish I could shoot them at my house in town but I can't. I have some pet cats that stay out but they never leave the yard.

I had a chocolate lab that would hunker down and wait for birds at just the right altitudes. She could leap and catch them sorta mid backflip landing back on her feet. I had a shovel ready to fling the leftovers into the garbage.

gyvel
May 1, 2012, 11:13 AM
There are some small breed dogs that are fantastic mousers and rodent killers.

My property borders national forerst land, and I am a bit off the beaten path and paved road. Unfortunately, small dogs like you describe are every bit as delicious coyote bait as well as cats. I have three large dogs, but they are too well fed and lazy to go after rodents.

For that matter, there are some huge owls and even eagles that inhabit the area, and cats and small dogs are fair game for them, too. (Not to mention the bobcats and mountain lions that sneak in at night.)

I have to agree that feral cats are a nuisance and are highly destructive of other species, but they are predators, and act solely based on their instincts without any abstract moral judgements. The real blame goes to the irresponsible people who were too lazy or stupid (or both) to keep their own cats neutered to curb the population growth.

If I recall, there was an instance where cats were introduced to an island (I'm thinking that it was one of the Galapagos Islands), and within a short time had managed to wipe out every speice indigenous to that particular island.

Bamashooter
May 1, 2012, 04:39 PM
When my father was alive we quail hunted alot. Whenever he saw a feral cat he would go out of his way to kill it. He said they would kill the quail during hunting season and the young ones in the summer. The ole man has been gone for 20yrs and I still kill every cat I encounter in the wild. Sometimes I would feel bad like when my son saw me do it one time and flipped out but after retelling the ole mans story he understood. Judging from some of theposts Ive read here Ive actually been doing some good. I wont feel bad anymore. :)

shortwave
May 1, 2012, 10:25 PM
As a wildlife lover, it's my obligation to eliminate feral cats while in the woods....and since I live in the middle of the woods, my responsibilities also include these expert predators that are stocking various 'victims of prey' around the house as well.
Many bunnies have been saved from the fangs of these ferocious felines. ;)

mnhntr
May 2, 2012, 09:20 PM
Got one tonight. On the way home from the range and a neighbors barn cat was creeping in the woods on my land so the HK 45 barked and one less cat.

Vermonter
May 3, 2012, 03:10 PM
In the last two months I have rescued two stray dogs. Both were pets, both had collars, and both had terrible worthless good for nothing owners. One was at a property we manage alone and one came to my office and walked through the proped open door.

In both instances I wish I had adopted or sheltered the dogs. Surley someone will hit them in a vehicle crash.

Regards, Vermonter

gyvel
May 3, 2012, 06:15 PM
Thankfully, the coyotes et. al. do a pretty good job of controlling feral cats around my area.

Now if I could only find more California Kings to take care of the mice, gophers and rattlers around the house.:D

SavageSniper
May 3, 2012, 08:20 PM
It amazes me how I will see cats in the middle of the Apalachicola National Forest miles from any house. I know that they are from people dumping them off, or thats the way the population started. They have adapted and are thriving. They also get shot on sight if possible.

hogdogs
May 3, 2012, 08:55 PM
I , along with many a hunter, will expend ANY round we have loaded for deer or hog etc. on a solo feral feline we see on the Eglin AFB WMA...

I, personally, am willing to wreck a hunt day for a single vermin feral field lion...
Brent

hogdogs
May 3, 2012, 09:00 PM
A .300 Win mag or .30-06 in Core-Lokt or better or a 12 gauge in ANY buck ball or a slug of either $abot or a standard style Foster or Brenneke [sp] reeks havoc on even the healthiest feral feline body...

shortwave
May 4, 2012, 04:58 AM
^^As well as a finely tuned arrow tipped with a nice broadhead....

...but I must admit, when bow hunting, since I'm so cheap, in my quiver is always a shaft or two tipped with field points especially for field lions and other destructive beasts of the jungle.

twins
May 4, 2012, 06:42 AM
Any suggestions for catching one (ie, traps)?

Having problems with stray cats on a property inside city limits.

hogdogs
May 4, 2012, 07:39 AM
Trapping feral cats can be tough if you have possums and coons as they will often hit the same baits...

Milk is really a good bait... catfood is the main bait I used besides milk...

Brent

mquail
May 4, 2012, 08:03 AM
Milk is really a good bait... catfood is the main bait I used besides milk...

I don't know about down there, up here we get skunks and lots of em! I use PVC traps just in case. A skunk can't spray me from in the trap but occasionally they do leak a bit:eek:

SavageSniper
May 4, 2012, 11:56 AM
Snares work too. Well kinda. I snared one just outside my house a little while back. He was big and healthy and murder on the rabbits and such around the house. The snare I sat was a little too strong for a cat but i proceeded anyway. I baited it with KFC. It took him maybe 20 minutes before he showed himself. My wife and I watched him take the bait and when the snare went off it slung him about 10 feet in the air and 20 feet down range. He hit the ground unhurt and came back and got the chicken anyway. My wife said that that was not a snare it was a cat-a-pault. I was laughing soo hard I couldnt shoot him. I did manage to get him a couple days later.

Dave P
May 4, 2012, 12:35 PM
Don't see a lot of cats or mean, stray dogs in my woods. But I put them down when I do.

Last cat was a big SOB, but birdshot got him out of that tree ASAP. Now my dog has more rabbits to chase!

Vermonter
May 4, 2012, 01:14 PM
Your cat a palult thing is hilarious. P.S if you are baiting with KFC I might have to start being a stray cat in your yard!

BigMikey76
May 5, 2012, 12:30 PM
I think you did it just right. I am a dog and cat owner and a lifelong animal lover. My cats stay in the house (that way the mice don't), and I have a tall fence to keep the dog in the yard when he is outside. People who don't take proper measures to contain their animals are also not taking proper care of them, and if the animal gets dead, they don't really have much room to complain.

fatwhiteboy
May 5, 2012, 05:09 PM
I have adopted two West Highland White Terriers from a rescue organization here in Southern California. In the last 18 months the have killed 2 rats, 5 mice and 9 oppossum. They each weigh about 18 pounds. If the cats would come down off the fence, they would be history, too....

dayman
May 5, 2012, 06:52 PM
I like the term "field lion", it makes the important distinction between pets and feral animals.
We used to have a lot of feral cats around here and I was debating hunting them, but then a fisher moved into the neighborhood, and they all sort of disappeared.
The coyotes take care of everything further back in the woods.

Nature seems to take pretty good care of it's self when you let it.

MikeG
May 5, 2012, 07:53 PM
I think you did it just right. I am a dog and cat owner and a lifelong animal lover. My cats stay in the house (that way the mice don't), and I have a tall fence to keep the dog in the yard when he is outside. People who don't take proper measures to contain their animals are also not taking proper care of them, and if the animal gets dead, they don't really have much room to complain.

I completely agree Big Mikey76. I do the same with our cats and dogs.

Apart from the damage to smaller wildlife cats do when allowed to run free, they also become coyote snacks. Loose dogs cause problems too, killing chickens and chasing horses. A few weeks ago, someone down the road shot someone else's loose dog. The news channel started to make a big hoo-hah about it but I e-mailed them to tell them it is illegal to let dogs run loose out here, and the problems they cause when they do. The story died away.

Tickling
May 6, 2012, 01:35 PM
Interesting, I'm sure feral cats can wreak havoc on native populations and while I don't honestly know if I could shoot one personally, I don't begrudge those who do so when they become an invasive species.

I guess I grew up with a different angle on the matter, I spent a few years growing up in wheat country and it seemed they loved feral cats. Of course mice and songbirds can wreak havoc on grain-crops, so maybe that had something to do with it ;)

Hansam
May 6, 2012, 06:17 PM
Any suggestions for catching one (ie, traps)?

I use a raccoon size Havahart live trap with a single door. I usually place a can of half open undrained tuna in the back of the trap then cover it with cardboard or wood. This helps collect the scent around the trap then as the wind gets to it it drifts out and is a great bait for cats and coons. The trap remains set up in a single location near my garbage cans. I don't seem to have any possum here in my neck of the woods so I don't catch any of them. I have however trapped over a dozen cats in the last couple of weeks and a few coons too. It seems the feral cats outnumber the coons here.

Every varmint that has gone into that trap has never made it out of the trap alive. They all enter the trap and leave by way of a .22short bullet to the top of the head from my single six. I use a .22short so I don't get overpenetration - I don't want to put any bullet holes in the catch plate of my trap.

Anyway cats and coons can't seem to resist the smell of tuna going bad. Try it and see what it does for you.

I have adopted two West Highland White Terriers from a rescue organization here in Southern California. In the last 18 months the have killed 2 rats, 5 mice and 9 oppossum. They each weigh about 18 pounds. If the cats would come down off the fence, they would be history, too....

Two 18lb Westies would have difficulty with a healthy mature feral cat. Those things are lean, mean and agile killing machines. I've seen a single feral cat take on and chase off full grown german shepherds, pit bulls and even a small pack (4 dogs) of jack russels terriers - not the same cat but I've seen those incidents with different cats. Be careful with your wish for a cat to climb into your yard. While you may end up with a dead cat to dispose of you may also end up with one or two heavily wounded dogs to care for too.

HALL,AUSTIN
May 7, 2012, 01:07 PM
Now I may be in the wrong, but my Mrs. works with a cat adoption place and I just couldnt kill a cat, but our cat also came back when called, just like our dog. The only feral animal I have **** was a rabid dog. I didnt like it, but it was either that or let it roam and bite/kill/infect other animals.
Now that said, I am not a PETA freak (to me PETA means people eating tasty animals) and I do hunt pests, I just like cats. But I live in the city limits where cats arent much of a problem. I hunt coyotes and can't stand to let one live if I have a firearm handy, I just have a soft spot for cats.
But to each their own and Brent, if they affect your wildlife, then put em down.
PS-I second that you tell a great hunting story

rickyrick
May 7, 2012, 01:35 PM
I understand your feelings for cats, but feral cats are not friendly at all and are quite dangerous to domestic cats and dogs.

Buzzcook
May 8, 2012, 01:10 PM
Inside the city limits you should consult your local animal control office.
In some cases they'll lend live traps and expertise.

We have a neighbor that feeds strays. She also feeds possum and raccoons.

Hansam
May 8, 2012, 01:54 PM
In the city you have no choice but to rely on your local animal control office for feral cat issues or for that matter any feral/stray animals problems. More often than not they'll live trap the animal(s) and remove them to a shelter.

From there the shelter will either destroy the animal (if its found to be mangy or unsociable) or send the animal out to other shelters that will try and place them in homes. Personally I'm a huge proponent of destroying any and all collarless strays/ferals. People will say that some of those are pets even though they're not collared and tagged. Personally if someone really loved their animal they'd have the proper collar and tags on the animal - and not let it roam at large. In regard to the idea of placing them - the way I see it is they get placed in homes and then get free again to terrorize a new area... and then animal control is called and it all starts over again. Just a waste of time and money. I'd always been a supporter of heavy punishments for people who let their animals roam at will. Personally I'd be happy with a huge fine for people whose dogs/cats are caught roaming at large. Make'em pay before they get the animal back - and if they delay in paying make'em pay boarding fees. If they refuse to take the animal back take'em to court. It'll teach people to be more responsible with their pets in the city.

Out here in the country animals without collars die. Dogs with collars are captured (or killed if they prove to be of a dangerous temperament) then the owners are called. If I see the dog again law enforcement is involved - WI has a statewide statute against pets roaming at large off your private property. Third time I see the dog on my property it dies.

I just hate it when people either can't or won't (most cases its the latter) give their animals proper training and keep control of them. My dogs heel till released from heel (usually to go do something else), sit till I release them (again usually to go do something else) and don't leave my property (I don't have fences). In fact they don't wander away from what I consider my yard since that's what they've been taught as being their boundaries. Now maybe I've got a leg up on most people since I do train dogs on the side but then it really doesn't take that much time and effort to properly train a dog and keep it trained. I don't know about cats except that when they roam at large they are very detrimental to the native wildlife so they are shot on sight.

Deja vu
May 8, 2012, 02:17 PM
My dad had a young dog he was training to be a hunting dog. One night it got out and went on the neighbors property and started chasing chickens and the neighbor shot it. My dad was a little miffed but in the end it was his fault because its his job to control his dog. He and the neighbor are still on good terms.

rickyrick
May 8, 2012, 06:28 PM
My cats stay in the yard, they lay around and eat my food....I can't prove it, but I think they smoke weed....

My dogs have to be contained or else they would hit the road. I have one dog that gets to walk with me unleashed but he still needs supervision. I would probly give a collared dog a chance but not too many.

sonick808
May 8, 2012, 08:47 PM
feral cats are EVIL. Predation for boredom's sake? Cull them early and often.

MLeake
May 8, 2012, 10:43 PM
It is interesting to note the divide on this one between hunters and farmers / ranchers.

Feral cats don't bother me at all. They keep the rodents and birds out of my horses' feed.

For that matter, I like rat snakes.

Another thought - beware the culling out for predation due to boredom's sake rhetoric. Most of the hunters I know don't actually need to hunt. That's not to say they waste meat, but they hunt because they want to, not because they will starve if they don't hunt.

Hansam
May 9, 2012, 07:39 AM
Another thought - beware the culling out for predation due to boredom's sake rhetoric. Most of the hunters I know don't actually need to hunt. That's not to say they waste meat, but they hunt because they want to, not because they will starve if they don't hunt.

There's hunting for sport - which would be most of us here - then there's just killing every darned thing you come across that you can kill because you feel like it - which is every feral cat out there.

As sportsmen and hunters we only kill what we have tags for or what is allowed for us to kill during the specified season and that we have licenses for. We have a bag limit and a possession limit and we obey those limits. We also don't kill random song birds, protected species and anything else unfortunate enough to cross our path.

Feral cats on the other hand have no concern for tags, seasons, bag limits etc. They don't give a darned if a bird is a song bird, game bird or freaking protected species. They just kill it. Seen plenty of them stalk and kill then leave the carcass lay because they just saw the prey. That was really what proved to me they should be destroyed on sight.

RevGeo
May 9, 2012, 09:28 AM
Its really hard to say 'Friday Feral Field Lion' three times quickly unless you practice.

MLeake
May 9, 2012, 01:33 PM
Hansam,

I know quite a few guys who like to hunt coyotes and prairie dogs because they can. These are not people who are concerned about predation on livestock, nor on prairie dog holes breaking a horse's leg. They are just guys who like shooting the critters, and who can do so at will because those animals are considered fair game where they live (due to damage to livestock).

I don't know anybody who eats coyote or prairie dog.

A lot of guys kill wild hogs whenever possible. The meat does get used on those, in general. Again, those animals are considered fair game in many places because they damage crops. Yet, most of the guys I know who hunt hogs are not farmers - they are guys who like to hunt.

My point again being, don't make this a moral issue about the evil feral cats. If you place a value on the animals they kill, and if feral cats are legal prey where you live, then have fun. But a lot of humans behave in much the same way as those cats do.

rickyrick
May 9, 2012, 06:04 PM
Nuisance animal hunting can be touchy and has different set of standards than game hunting. I go about hunting them based on the threat the animal poses, amount of damage and whether or not they are native.

1. Pigs, all pigs will die on sight within the confines of a safe, responsible shot...no matter the final disposition of the meat.

2. Raccoons, will be shot or trapped if a number of occurrences dead chickens, damaged food stores,ect.....raccoons that stay in raccoon land and do raccoon activities, will not be actively hunted.
A. Skunks will usually be dealt with but not always.
B. Possums and others as needed.

3. Coyotes, usually hunted for fun. Most are not particularly harmful.....however, some are, I do not seek coyotes that do not reside in the immediate vicinity, but nothing is 100% when it comes to coyotes. Coyotes can be a challenge, so, I consider them to have a sporting chance.

Tickling
May 9, 2012, 08:42 PM
As sportsmen and hunters we only kill what we have tags for or what is allowed for us to kill during the specified season and that we have licenses for. We have a bag limit and a possession limit and we obey those limits. We also don't kill random song birds, protected species and anything else unfortunate enough to cross our path.

Feral cats on the other hand have no concern for tags, seasons, bag limits etc. They don't give a darned if a bird is a song bird, game bird or freaking protected species. They just kill it. Seen plenty of them stalk and kill then leave the carcass lay because they just saw the prey. That was really what proved to me they should be destroyed on sight.

Not a cat fanatic, but whoah! I think you need to reread your post. You do realize you just compared cats (instinctive predatory animals) to humans (usually intelligent, intellectually evolved, morality-aware, ape-like creatures)? And formulated a judgement from that comparison?

There's hunting for sport - which would be most of us here - then there's just killing every darned thing you come across that you can kill because you feel like it - which is every feral cat out there.

Yes, and you just described animal or cat "sport." Lots of other animals do it, such as Killer Whales. Surprise, surprise.

But hey, I have no issue with anyone dealing with feral or nuisance animals. I do however take issue with your logic. And heres why; it's the same logic certain extreme environmentalists use against us (humans) about how we kill animals for sport and rape the planet for our own benefit. Like you, they say that we (humans), should be exterminated and balance restored.

Again, I have no problem with feral cat elimination, just please don't use arguments the bunny-cuddlers can beat you over the head with..

langenc
May 9, 2012, 10:11 PM
Why is there a difference between pets and feral cats. How can/do you know the difference? Is there a difference-both groups will kill and and all!!

Neighbor has some she feeds and wonders why they dont leave. Other neighbor has one and a 'cat door' and NO litter box. My wife is just about done cleaning up the flower beds.

THis is kinda like the various 'pit ranges' that slobs leave all kinda of junk for someone else to clean up.

Hansam
May 9, 2012, 10:23 PM
MLeake - You are correct that there are those who hunt coyote and shoot prairie dogs purely because they can. I personally shoot coyote on sight too because I train dogs and as such they can be a threat to the dogs I train. I however do not hunt coyote that don't decide to make their homes on my property and training grounds. I do not begrudge others the choice to hunt coyote though nor do I condemn them for it. We don't have prairie dogs here so I really can't comment on that.

That said you have to understand that these hunters are hunting a species that typically have a reproduction rate that easily exceeds the rate at which they are being killed - even with human predation. Coyote have few if any natural predators in many areas - and regardless of how hard I try to eliminate the coyote population in and around my area I do find them returning now and then. Again I won't touch on prairie dogs because I don't have them here.

Now about cats - they hunt everything that comes across their path and is within their killable size. As was stated by another poster they do this instinctively - they are nature's nearly perfect killing machines and they prove this consistently. I haven't got a problem with wild cats. I do have a problem with feral cats. Feral cats are a problem that was created by humans. This is one of those problems that will not go away till humans intervene and eliminate it.

Tickling - I believe you need to reread my post. I did indeed make a comparison between humans and feral cats. I did so with the intent to show that humans ARE sentient - they have morals and rules that they obey. They set limits for themselves and remain within those limits when hunting.

Feral cats on the other hand are NOT a natural occurrence - rather a human made problem - that does not have the capacity to understand that certain species of birds are restricted from hunting or that some animals are protected by human law. They ONLY behave instinctively - instincts that we as humans have distilled within them through time and selective breeding - and as such they kill even when not hungry.

Wild cats do not do this. True wild cats only kill when hungry or threatened. For a feral cat its not even about sport since animals do not have the capacity to determine the difference between sport and necessity. In the feral cat's mind it is doing what it was created to do - something it sees as a necessity - kill every small creature that it comes across.

You are correct that I worded one sentence incorrectly however my logic is correct. Of course even had I worded it correctly anyone could twist what I had written to mean anything they wish. Look at you and your perception of the post. A bunny hugger would easily pervert my post to become something it isn't... however any post here could be perverted like that.

Regardless of how one feels about hunting though it MUST be understood that complete and utter eradication is the ONLY solution to the growing problem that humans created out of "love" for their pet cats... This is a problem that must be tackled on two fronts though. One front is the issue of educating cat owners so they do NOT allow their cats to roam outside and be given the chance to go feral. The second front is the total destruction of the entire feral cat population in this country. Both fronts are as enormous and difficult a task as it is to devise a machine to prevent earthquakes. However if we at least tackle one front as best we can as responsible citizens of this planet we might be able to at least mitigate or minimize the negative impact that these creatures have on our natural resources.

MLeake
May 9, 2012, 10:40 PM
Hansam, I would suggest that your "feral cats as man-made problem" argument is stronger and more defensible than the argument that feral cats are not selective killers, and that they don't kill for food.

The man-made problem and man-trained behaviors argument is more persuasive, and doesn't allow antis the easy attacks that the previous argument allowed, IMO.

gyvel
May 10, 2012, 03:33 AM
feral cats are EVIL. Predation for boredom's sake? Cull them early and often.

Bull. Cats have no sense of morality and only do what their instincts tell them to do. Small, domestic cats are almost identical, genetically, to their larger counterparts (lions, tigers, panther, cougars, etc.) and have evolved to be predators.

Interestingly, my own personal observations over the years have been that people who really loathe and detest cats are people who like to "control" things. Cats have evolved in this world to be predators and predators are focused animals, i.e. when they are hunting, they shut out all other stimulii and concentrate only on finding that prey.

hogdogs
May 10, 2012, 08:57 AM
I make this distinction as to whether or not a cat is pet or is it feral....

If it is on my place it is feral as I own no pet cats that belong here...

After each one is killed, I check for collars and claws... I have dropped a few with collars but all had claws and no microchip has been found during skinning...

Not that the presence of a chip would matter to me...

Brent

Art Eatman
May 10, 2012, 07:49 PM
langenc, since I don't live in town and have no pet house cat, any cat I see is a feral. :)

Basically, cats in rural areas or wilderness are feral, which is where the main problems arise. Lotsa cats means fewer songbirds, quail, squirrels, rabbits...

Sure, there are feral cats in towns, but since it's against the law to shoot and you have people there who love ALL cats: There's little point in talking about them.

swopjan
May 13, 2012, 01:40 AM
hogdogs, I've always wondered; how many ways ARE there to skin a cat?

shortwave
May 13, 2012, 08:01 AM
My determination of feral cat versus pet, mirrors that of hogdogs.

Too, the logic of the reason for the feral cat epidemic that Hansam expresses, I also agree with. That being that its a human created problem.

It's very simple:
Pet owners should keep their pets at home...and I should add...should keep their pets under control when they are with them away from home.

It's not my neighbors job to clean after my pets. My neighbor shouldn't fear walking out his/her own house to meet my 135lb. shepherd showing his teeth at them any more then that same neighbor should have to be working in their flower bed with the pleasant aroma of my cat using their flower bed as a litter box.

For some strange reason, many cat owners seem to think it's ok to let their feline's run free. Here in the country,that seems to be the general attitude.
I will also say that here in the country, it is generally accepted that if my pet is on my neighbors property disturbing them and my pet doesn't come home, I have no gripe.
Therefore, since I love my pets, I've taken the time(many hours)and expense of proper training to insure my neighbors are not bothered by my pets.

Again, my pets are my responsibility.

MLeake
May 13, 2012, 08:32 AM
Funny, where I grew up (Maine suburbs) indoor cats were a rarity. Cats roamed; that's what cats did.

There was even a speech written on this (before I was born) by Adlai Stevenson, regarding a leash law bill.

Meanwhile, based on the past couple days, the threat to birds around here seems to come from my west facing windows... Woodpecker yesterday, Starling this morning... We should ban windows, or require images of raptors or snakes be painted on them.

Edit: Another thought - How many of the people here, who are ostensibly worried about damage to bird populations (stated primary reason for wanting to shoot or control feral cats) were in favor of killing the Keystone Pipeline? I ask this because my in-laws (bird watchers, though my FIL is also a turkey hunter) were opposed to the Keystone, as it would have run fairly close to where we live, and theoretically threatened bird populations in Nebraska and Missouri in the event of a spill. Yet an awful lot of people were more concerned about possible pipeline building jobs, or possible reductions in net oil prices, than they were about birds.

So, again, what makes people any better than or different from cats?

rickyrick
May 13, 2012, 09:06 AM
Regular food and water, and a cat won't roam. Mine stay in the yard. Even at my buddy's that feeds the cats at his farm, they dont go anywhere. So, its a matter of feeding them to keep them home. Dogs need some type of containment, unless performing a task in which they were trained.

MLeake
May 13, 2012, 09:21 AM
Since you mention that, rickyrick: My parents regularly put out food and water for their semi-adopted cat, yet she still roams the neighborhood where they live. Turns out four or five families have adopted that same cat, and they also put out food and water.

I think it depends on what options exist for the cat.

Meanwhile, I'm a dog person. We either use containment, or are out with the dogs, or else the dogs are inside with us. I'm less worried about my dogs doing harm, than I am about them encountering fast-moving cars, but I realize that dogs can have radical behavior changes if they hook up with a pack. Best to avoid the whole thing. If one of my dogs does manage to pull a Houdini, their dog tags all have my wife's and my cell phone numbers. (This has come in handy before; some dogs are very creative about getting over or under fences.)

Other than keeping a cat in the house, or a screened porch, or a cat carrier, I don't know of any outdoor enclosure that will reliably contain a cat.

shortwave
May 13, 2012, 11:40 AM
Funny, where I grew up (Maine suburbs) indoor cats were a rarity. Cats roamed; that's what cats did.


Yep, that's what they did in the neighborhood I grew up in as well. And the non cat owners of the neighborhood didn't like it any better then than they do today. The same laws that apply to dogs should apply to felines as well. IMO, again, part of responsible pet ownership whether the pet be lions,tigers,bears, K9's or cats is keep them at your own house.
I've got my own to take care of.

Where I presently live, we have a neighbor that puts dog and cat food out on their side porch for all the strays people tend to drop off in rural areas. This area is notorious for stray, unwanted pets. These same neighbors can't seem to figure out why they can't keep coons from burrowing under their house and don't understand why they have such a rat/mouse/opposum problem. The old guy called me about the coons living in their crawl space. As we were talking he also explained that he didn't understand the rat/mouse problem in his house with all the cats around. :rolleyes:
With respect, I suggested that they not put out on their porch a daily ten course meal for every rodent known to man. He replied that he/wife felt sorry for all the strays people drop off and feel the need to feed them.


At any rate, these strays eventually make their way down the lane to my house were they are eventually eliminated. Now I've got animals and am responsible for their health and vet bills. Their are many diseases transmitted from animal to animal and since I care for my pets, I don't feel the obligation to have one of my pets get sick cause some irresponsible human let their pets run free or didn't want them any more and dropped them off in the country.


As many as I've eliminated over the years, there just never seems to be an end to the supply.

My parents regularly put out food and water for their semi-adopted cat, yet she still roams the neighborhood where they live. Turns out four or five families have adopted that same cat, and they also put out food and water

MLeake,
I have a question for you along the lines of regularly setting food out for strays.

If a person is setting food out for a 'semi-adopted' stray and that stray causes another person harm or financial hardship, should the semi-adoptive owner/owners be held responsible for damages?

Art Eatman
May 13, 2012, 11:41 AM
I dunno how many hundred thousand miles of oil and gas pipelines there are in the US. Spill-type leaks are a rarity. The pipelines have automatic shutdowns for pressure drops.

The volume of spillage is low. Maybe cover an acre or three? Not enough to hurt any bird population beyond the occasional ground-nesting sort's nest. Far more birds are lost to wind generators and TV/radio towers.

But the nationwide total of "all of the above" is much less than what feral cats do in each and every individual state.

MLeake
May 13, 2012, 12:27 PM
shortwave, I tend to agree that putting out a buffet for random critters is unwise. When my wife had barn cats, their food was put up on a rafter, where the cats could get it, but most of the other critters that might be able to get it would have to run the cat gauntlet.

As far as my parents and their neighbors... I guess they don't worry about raccoons and opossums (Florida; they have plenty of both).

With regard to your liability question, what extreme would you like to use? Should a person who puts out a bird feeder or keeps berry-bearing trees and bushes bear liability for the neighbor's car washing costs? Or should people who put out salt licks for deer be liable for any potential damage done to area crops, by deer transiting to and from the licks?

It's an easy game to play, really, just keep going up a notch.

My basic take on the lot, though, is that animals behave like animals. If you need to control them due to potential harms to your livestock, crops, etc, then so be it. My point is that it is a utilitarian argument, not a moral argument. Some people here are demonizing the critters for acting like critters, as though they need a moral justification. My point is that if they have a real need, they have a real need. If they don't, then it really comes down to they like to shoot stuff because they can.

In which case, they are no different from the cats.

So, people either have a real reason to control the beasts (which they might well have - protection of property, control of disease vectors, defense of locally threatened species could all be valid), or else people, like the cats, like to kill things when they can, in which case their moral arguments seem very hypocritical.

I've known quite a few guys who liked to shoot things because they could. I am not one of those guys, but there are a lot of them out there.

shortwave
May 13, 2012, 01:28 PM
With regard to your liability question, what extreme would you like to use?

The extreme that comes to mind is one that's really no an extreme at all.

Dog shows up at my house. I feed this dog for a couple years. He sleeps and loafs around my house. When he's out running the neighborhood and gets hungry he knows since I've been feeding him for the last couple years, right where to come to get his groceries. Yet I have never officially claimed him,taken him to the vet, bought tags for him, etc. He's around my house cause I kept feeding him.
One day the dog jumps on a neighbor kid and chews him up. Should I be held accountable or should I be able to tell LE or DW the dogs not mine?

My basic take on the lot, though, is that animals behave like animals.

Agree, and so many times are behaving the way they are due to the direct actions of an irresponsible human.
Another short story:
A fellow worker(jerk) I used to work with, used to come into work bragging about doing his monthly cat extermination around his farm. He had 15-20 adult cats that were continually breeding, throwing litters of kittens. This moron would gather up the kittens in a burlap bag and sling em in the creek. He must have thought it made him look tuff or something cause he always came into work bragging about doing this.
I'd usually walked off but had just had enough one day and told him off quite proper. He stood there with his mouth agape when I told him (among things not permissible to repeat here on TFL) the secret to having animals is being smarter then the animal. And why didn't he take the responsibility of having the adult cats fixed so they wouldn't have offspring. His only response was he couldn't afford to have all the cats fixed.
My response, as I walked off PO'ed was, he had to many cats then.

He and I never really speak much after that.

I've known quite a few guys who liked to shoot things because they could. I am not one of those guys, but there are a lot of them out there.


Yes there are. I'm not one of those but make no bones about eliminating strays as needed as humanely as possible.

dayman
May 13, 2012, 01:51 PM
I agree with MLeake that there are some people out there that seem to enjoy killing for the sake of killing even more than feral cats do. It's too bad as a fairly small number of people give hunters and gun owners in general a bad reputation.
That being said, I completely understand eliminating animals when they become pests, or are putting your pets/livestock/property at risk. I've had to shoot countless squirrels to keep them out of the house, and I've even shot a few feral cats that came around looking for a fight.
So I can see both sides.
The biggest thing I got from this story though, is that next time I do have to kill something I should seize the opportunity to turn the experience into a good story.

Art Eatman
May 13, 2012, 07:56 PM
Nuff fer now. This subject will come up again, for sure...

hogdogs
May 14, 2012, 08:57 AM
YEPPER... It will... gonna do some field lion callin' today and this eve...

Brent

Brian Pfleuger
May 14, 2012, 09:00 AM
That was weird. I know Art closed this. :confused: