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Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 10:41 AM
I made this little video after several conversations recently spreading the rumor/myth that you get Garand Thumb as a result of loading a full clip into a Garand. Have you heard that before? I used to believe it, until I read up on it and hear from old timers and read the original manuals and watched all the US Army training videos...just not so.

http://youtu.be/xeRjceFcAQg?hd=1

HiBC
April 29, 2012, 11:26 AM
Using your thumb to push the follower down,open bolt,no clip will give you a fine example of an M-1 thumb if you do not have your hand on the op rod handle at the same time!Most folks don't have to do it more than once.

chiefr
April 29, 2012, 12:50 PM
Concur with HiBC. Garand thumb is no myth. Lungmann thumb is not a myth either.:D

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
Hey, guys....I'm NOT saying Garand thumb is a myth, at all.

The myth is that loading a full clip of ammo into it will give you Garand thumb, now, sure, I suppose there is some doofus out there who managed to get a finger or other appendage in the magwell while loading a clip, but....

The vast majority of Garand thumb cases are a result of cycling the bolt when there is NO CLIP of ammo.

Just the way it is.

Slamfire
April 29, 2012, 12:56 PM
I lost a thumb nail cleaning a Garand. Pushed the follower down and the bolt bashed my thumb against the receiver.

I believe it could happen.

There is a way to become a believer: experiment.

Put a clip and the gun and don't be hasty about getting your thumb out when the clip latches and the bolt goes forward.

Give it enough tries for the sample set to be statistically valid.

How about 100 tries?

Then you could tell us who is the doofus.

Goatwhiskers
April 29, 2012, 01:02 PM
At drill, when they do inspection arms, when the weapon was returned to you, you were supposed to release the bolt and let it slam home. Put pressure on the op handle with the heel of your hand, depress the follower with your thumb, and release. Some people are not coordinated, there were always a few that had the interesting experience that we called M-1 thumb. Goat

Chris_B
April 29, 2012, 03:17 PM
Guys, it seems to me that you feel that Amsdorf said "there is no such thing as M1 Thumb". I can see no other explanation for the replies he's gotten.

However, if you read what he actually posted, you'll see that he hasn't said what you're assuming he did. Please take a minute and read what he said and digest it before telling him that M1 thumb is real. He knew that before he posted, trust me

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 05:30 PM
Better yet, watch the video (http://youtu.be/xeRjceFcAQg?hd=1), which is titled FACTS and MYTHS.

Fact: You can get Garand thumb when handling the weapon without a clip in the magazine: cleaning, manual of arms, inspections, etc.

Myth: You can get Garand thumb by loading a clip of ammo into the magazine.

smoakingun
April 29, 2012, 05:46 PM
I understand your point, but you lack experience. When you load a full clip into a garand, you are relying on pressure from the clip to hold back the bolt, if the clip is a little weak, that bolt WILL slam home, and if you did not knife edge that charging handle, it will crush your thumb

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
And there you go, more myth spreading.

The Army taught troops to load the Garand as demonstrated in the video, you can't get your thumb in the magazine when there is a full clip of .30-06 in it at the same time.

Chris_B
April 29, 2012, 06:04 PM
:confused: if the clip is a little weak?

can you please explain that?

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 06:10 PM
As demonstrated in the video...

Here is how the US Army instructed troops to load the Garand, none of this blading stuff:
(b.) Full clip. To load a full clip, hold the rifle at the balance with the left hand and pull the operating rod handle all the way to the rear. Place the butt of the rifle against the thigh or on the ground. With the right hand, place a full clip on top of the follower assembly. Place the thumb on the center of the top round in the clip and press the clip straight down into the receiver until it catches. Swing the right hand up and to the right to clear the bolt in its forward movement. Note that the operating rod is not held to the rear during loading since there is no danger of it going forward as long as pressure is maintained on the top round in the clip. It may be necessary to strike forward on the operating rod handle with the heel of the right hand to fully close and lock the bolt.

That is from:

DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY FIELD MANUAL

FM 23-5

for the U.S. Rifle, CALIBER .30, M1

And more...

Loading The Garand Rifle And M1 Thumb

The M1 is a fine battle rifle. We can debate about its' alleged deficiencies, about pings, Enblocs, etc., characteristics that actually exist. An alleged deficiency that does not exist is getting one's thumb crushed while loading a full, 8 round clip into the magazine. The M1 has gotten a bad rap (pun intended) when it comes to loading.

It is physically impossible to crush one's thumb when loading a full, 8 round clip into the magazine of an M1 Rifle. Prove it to yourself. Field strip your rifle and remove the op rod spring. Next, open the bolt. Push an 8 round clip containing 8 dummy rounds into the magazine as far as you can. Push the op rod forward. Notice that the bolt cannot override the top round no matter how hard you try. Now look at the follower arm. It is stopped from further downward travel by the bottom of the notch in the bullet guide. The follower and the follower arm can travel no lower. That's one reason why you can't insert a full clip and chamber a 9th round (or your thumb). It is physically impossible.

Ok, let's try to defeat this design. Assemble the rifle minus the bullet guide so as to allow maximum follower arm travel. Reassemble your rifle. Notice that you still cannot override the top round when you insert a loaded clip. The follower is bottomed out on the trigger housing floorplate. Ok, let's remove the trigger housing. Maybe we can close the bolt over the loaded clip and then reassemble the trigger housing. Nope, doesn't work, unable to assemble the housing, not even close. It's impossible to latch the trigger guard. There's a big gap between the housing and the bedding of the stock.

M1 thumb is something that can only happen when carelessly handling an Empty rifle.

Now that you see that your thumb is totally safe during loading, go to the range and push that clip home without a care in the world. Your thumb is in no danger. That bolt will slam forward, pushing the first round into the chamber and your thumb up and out of the way. ( two objects cannot occupy the same space, or chamber, at the same time )

Hopefully, this information will relieve some of the apprehension many M1 owners experience when loading their rifles.

James K
April 29, 2012, 06:16 PM
The M1 rifle was designed so that the bolt would close automatically when a full clip is inserted. In practice, most of the time it will be necessary to tap the op rod handle with the heel of the hand to get the first round to feed.

But "M1 thumb" doesn't occur when loading a clip. The pressure of the thumb on the top round keeps it from moving and allows the operator to get his thumb out of the way even if the bolt does close by itself.

The problem almost always happens when the bolt is not retracted all the way and the front of the bolt rests on the sloping surface of the follower slide. In that position, a slight touch on the follower will let the bolt slam forward and the result is generally a somewhat muted scream. (Of course, it is necessary to immediately clean the rifle as blood rusts steel; first aid for the sufferer can wait.)

Jim

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 06:20 PM
Bingo!!

Howard31
April 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
I never heard of anyone getting an M1 thumb loading a full clip. I always remember having to bump the Op rod handle to coax the first ,top round, out of the clip and into the chamber.Single round loading could be problimatic.
Using a timing block or dummy clip the op rod does not release until the clip is almost fully inserted.
All of the M1 thumbs I know about happened while doing the manual of arms. You had to use the heel of your hand to pull the op rod to the rear while depressing the follower and then letting the bolt ease forward slowly and then sharply removing your hand smartly in a military manner allowing the bolt to slam home.

Amsdorf
April 29, 2012, 06:43 PM
Precisely!

COSteve
April 30, 2012, 04:57 PM
The myth is that loading a full clip of ammo into it will give you Garand thumb, now, sure, I suppose there is some doofus out there who managed to get a finger or other appendage in the magwell while loading a clip, but....
Clearly, you've never been in the Army.

zippy13
April 30, 2012, 06:10 PM
In my younger years, I earned two M-1 thumbs. Neither involved a clip. As was previously suggested, one happened while working the manual: The commands were: "Inspection Arms, Port…" and, after a protracted delay, "As you were." Those familiar with the M-1 manual can visualize what happened. The second time was while inspecting an M-1.

kraigwy
April 30, 2012, 09:20 PM
I never got a "Garand Thumb" with a Garand, but I have several times with a M14.

In High Power shooting you single load in Slow fire, both at 200 yards (standing) and 600 yard slow fire. This consist of stuffing the round in magazine (which is inserted in the rifle) then getting back in position. You don't want the round in the chamber until the instant you're ready to shoot as it will heat up changing your impact.

Many times I inadvertently release the bolt while pushing the round into the magazine.

With the M1 you expect it so tend to watch out.

F. Guffey
April 30, 2012, 10:48 PM
I was in a gun store northeast of Long Beach CA. nice store, I ask to see an M1 Garand, for some reason the sales person did the order arms routine then handed me the rifle. I asked to see his very nice pin then stuck his pin in the receiver and hit the bullet guide. The bolt slammed forward and that is the way I handed the rifle back to him with his pin held securely between the front receiver ring and bolt face.

Then, one day I was on a shooting range, everyone was shooting M1s when a friend went into panic mode with an M1 attached to his thump, he was hysterical, I know it hurt, he had to be held down while the rifle was removed, his thumb was still loosely attached to his hand.

Up to that time I did not believe in hypnotism, he was told his thumb did not hurt, he was told he would ride the ambulance in the front, he was told he would not need a pain killer, he was told he would not feel anything, anyhow, a couple of privates went with him and returned with an incredible story. They said he refused pain killer, one claimed one of the privates almost hit the floor out of sympathy, he said they had never experienced anything so raw in their life.

F. Guffey

James K
April 30, 2012, 11:01 PM
I read that one several times and am still trying to figure out how one can hit the bullet guide with a pin (pen?) from the top of the receiver. Maybe it can be done, but I don't see how hitting it would release the bolt.

Jim

zippy13
May 1, 2012, 11:19 AM
Jim, the pin thing went right over my head, too.

Amsdorf
May 1, 2012, 11:58 AM
Pen, he meant pen, as in the writing instrument.

Chris_B
May 1, 2012, 04:03 PM
Respectfully, the way I read the anecdote about the shop salesman performing the manual of arms, he was showing the customer it was not loaded; maybe an odd way sure, but that's what I see when I read the description. I'm not sure what the point of sticking his pen into the magazine to make the bolt slam home was supposed to illustrate; the rifle functioned as designed, so...I'm unsure of what the underlying message there is :confused:

However, I am sure that what was meant was the follower, not bullet guide

James K
May 1, 2012, 04:32 PM
The light dawned after I had sent that post and logged off. I am sure he meant the follower. The condition was probably that the bolt was not fully retracted and was stopped on the slide. As I said above, that condition will almost certainly lead to "M1 thumb" or in Mr. Guffey's case, "M1 pen."

For those not familiar with the M1 rifle, the bolt does not lock back on the magazine follower or with a bolt catch like the M14 or M16. The M1 operating rod locks back because its hooks engage with hooks on the operating rod catch. This is a very secure and positive way of locking the action open, and it takes a very deliberate action to disengage the op rod catch and release the op rod and bolt. As has been said about other mechanisms, it is foolproof; it is just not damnfool proof.

Just FWIW, only those who have never been in service call it the Garand - to those who carried and used it, it was, and always will be, the M1 rifle.

Jim

Chris_B
May 1, 2012, 05:04 PM
You'll like this then Jim :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/mmmkay.jpg

SIGSHR
May 1, 2012, 05:54 PM
I enlisted in the Army in the Summer of 1967, there were plenty of people who had trained on the M-1, yes, M-1 Thumb WAS a real thing.

Chris_B
May 1, 2012, 07:33 PM
Nobody has suggested it's not a real thing

Amsdorf
May 1, 2012, 08:44 PM
And now we have the myth that the Garand was never referred to as the Garand by anyone in the military...that myth has been busted many times over, with documentation from true Garand experts refuting the "couch Ninja" experts. Saw a guy get his butt handed to him on another forum when he tried to say that the military never referred to it as the Garand.

James K
May 1, 2012, 09:32 PM
Hi, Amsdorf,

I am sure some self-styled experts can claim that the M1 was called the Garand by everyone. Not so. Now in early years, even folks like Julian Hatcher called it that (and he was certainly an expert), partly to distinguish it from the Johnson. But today if I hear someone call the rifle a "Garand" I pretty well know that HE is a "mall Ninja" whose experience with the rifle is based on gunzine articles written by folks not much older.

If you want to hand me my butt and claim I am ignorant about the M1 rifle, have fun. And of course, you can also call it the "Garry", same as the folks who use silly terms like "Winnie", "Remmie", "Springer" and "Smitty". Ugh!

And just to incite further ire, the carbine was never called the M1 (that term being used for the rifle); it was always called the carbine (car' bean); it would be called the M1 carbine or M2 carbine only if there was some need to distinguish between the two.

Chris B. - Just looking at that picture gives me the willies!!

Jim

springer99
May 1, 2012, 10:18 PM
I started my service with an M-1 in the mid-60's and IMO, most M1 thumbs that I'd seen were awarded while proudly doing the "manual of arms", not while loading an en-bloc.

James K - I'm with you. It was always just an M-1 to us. I never even knew it was a Garand until many years later. Of course, the M-1/M-2 Carbine was just called either a Carbine or POS.:D Today, in all honestly, I do think much more highly of the Carbine than I did back then.

gyvel
May 2, 2012, 12:00 AM
if the clip is a little weak?

can you please explain that?

M1 clips are spring tempered. I'm assuming the poster meant if the clip itself has lost some of its spring tempering, and thus had a weaker grip on the rounds.

gyvel
May 2, 2012, 12:04 AM
Delete

Chris_B
May 2, 2012, 10:58 AM
M1 clips are spring tempered. I'm assuming the poster meant if the clip itself has lost some of its spring tempering, and thus had a weaker grip on the rounds

:D I understood the words when he posted them; I never finished engineering school but I took some notes ;) I'm asking him to explain his standpoint

I ask that because I have never heard of, read about, or seen reference to a weak clip spraying rounds out, reducing the clip to an empty shell, thus dropping the clip to the bottom of the mag, letting the bolt slam onto the rifleman's hand- the bottom of the stack of bullets is retained by the follower, the top of the stack of bullets is reatined by the thumb, the sides are retained by the clip and the rifle's magazine.

I ain't seeing it

Amsdorf
May 2, 2012, 11:48 AM
The point re. the name "Garand" is that it is a myth that it was not used until well after the rifle was taken out of service. Further, if you are seriously suggesting that Hatcher only uses it as opposed to the Johnson, then I recommend you go back and read his book and, more importantly, the various Ordinance department documents which clearly refer to the M1 as a Garand.

Here is a thread on another forum that provides proof positive:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=35549

Let's put this myth to rest, shall we?

Or, on the other hand, keep arguing about this one ad naseum.

That's fun too!

:D

gyvel
May 2, 2012, 04:08 PM
I ask that because I have never heard of, read about, or seen reference to a weak clip spraying rounds out, reducing the clip to an empty shell, thus dropping the clip to the bottom of the mag, letting the bolt slam onto the rifleman's hand- the bottom of the stack of bullets is retained by the follower, the top of the stack of bullets is reatined by the thumb, the sides are retained by the clip and the rifle's magazine.

That's not how I interpreted his statement. I was assuming that he meant (as I stated) that some of the spring temper had weakened, thus easing the grip on the cartridges contained within the clip, and letting the bolt chamber the first round with little or no effort when the loaded clip was inserted.

Although unlikely, that could theoretically catch the unwary thumb between the bolt and the receiver. ( I suppose.)

langenc
May 2, 2012, 04:14 PM
Thumb usually came from the gun while doing the manual of arms. And it was usually a one time thing. I never got it even once but our drill team members would, esp a 'recruit' in his first few days.

It might also happen to recruits while on the rifle range trying to load a 2 round clip for rapid fire. Anyone who had shot much didnt have a problem.

Ready on the right.......

Avenger
May 2, 2012, 04:54 PM
I gave myself a MILD M1 thumb once, and once ONLY...I did have the op-rod held back, but it slipped. This was all preceded by the words, "Now, never ever do THIS..." passing my lips.

I wonder how many empty chamber flags have been snipped in half over the years!

B. Lahey
May 2, 2012, 05:02 PM
Like kraigwy, I've never suffered M1 Thumb inflicted by a Garand, but I have managed to do it with an M14. It hurt.

We're special little snowflakes, I guess.:D

Chris_B
May 2, 2012, 05:10 PM
:) Gyvel, that's another one I never heard of, and respectfully, these days the clips should be weaker than ever but...this isn't happening

gyvel
May 3, 2012, 04:36 AM
Gyvel, that's another one I never heard of, and respectfully, these days the clips should be weaker than ever but...this isn't happening

You're probably right; I was just using that as a hypothetical. I've been (thus far) fortunate enough to escape the M1 thumb. When I was in college in the early 60s, we used M1s for drill in ROTC, but I already knew about the "M1 thumb" from my father, who was in the Battle of the Bulge during WWII.

By the time I was on active duty, the swing was on to the M16. (Although we qualified with M1 Carbines at my first U.S. duty station after basic training.):D

James K
May 3, 2012, 12:52 PM
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle. Weak clips showed up in training, where clips were repeatedly reloaded from boxed ammo, and in target shooting where competitors deliberately weakened clips to gain a second or so advantage by not having to hit the op rod. But in combat, ammo was fresh from sealed cans, packed in clips, in bandoliers; there were no spare clips for loading and no need to re-use clips and it was very rarely done.

Hi, Amsdorf,

No, your ancient history documents date to before WWII, when the rifle was something new and was, as you correctly say, referred to as the Garand rather than the M1. I have seen those documents and also have copies of the American Rifleman from the 1930's in which the rifle is trashed, while the Johnson is praised. Ultimately, the shooters of that time considered that nothing could surpass the M1903 and that any semi-automatic was an inaccurate, unreliable bullet sprayer that could never be successfully used in combat.

But no FM, no TM, no MWO throughout WWII and after called the rifle by any name other than "M1" (or M1C, M1D). And I would venture to say that 99.99% of the soldiers who used it never heard of John Garand. I served 1955 to 1957 and I never heard any instructor, officer, NCO or anyone else call the rifle other than an M1.

Sorry, but the "myth" is that the rifle was called the "Garand" by the soldiers. You have taken a few informal documents from the earliest days and claimed they are absolute proof that the troops always called the M1 rifle by its inventor's name. That is simply not the case.

I have no idea how long you served in the military or in what branch of service, or if you were issued an M1 rifle, but if you called it a Garand, your fellow service members would have wondered what you were talking about.

Jim

Amsdorf
May 3, 2012, 12:53 PM
I'm not denying that the rifle was called the M1. Indeed, it was, but those who claim it was never referred to as a Garand are simply mistaken.

Head on over to other Garand forums and you can argue this until the cows come home.

: )

smoakingun
May 3, 2012, 01:11 PM
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.

That is what I was talking about. As to M1 thumb loading a full clip, when that bolt rides forward without bein told, you are right the round keeps your thumb out of the chamber, but the bolt head still has room to catch the thumb between it and the top of the reciever, and I can tell you it does remove flesh.

James K
May 3, 2012, 05:22 PM
The round doesn't keep the thumb out of the way, the thumb pushing down on the top round keeps it from moving; it can't move forward and let the bolt close until the thumb is removed.

Amsdorf, I note you did not answer the question about your own service or age and how you have such expert knowledge of what was done in those years.

I am not going to argue with you any more; you can have your own ideas and your own "proofs". But if you ever actually get to see one of those rifles, you might read what it says on it. It doesn't say "GARAND", it says "M1".

JIm

gyvel
May 3, 2012, 05:56 PM
First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.

ChrisB^^This is what I assumed the poster was referring to when he mentioned a "weak clip."

As another poster observed, it can and will result in a thumb injury.

Amsdorf
May 3, 2012, 06:54 PM
JimK, you are free to hold your opinion. I'm simply trying to tell you what the facts are. The assertion that "nobody" called it a Garand is simply not true. Yes, it was known as the M1 and that was how it was referred to by nearly everyone, but the military had also referred to it as a Garand.

As for if I ever get to see one....

Well, I've got eight of them in my gun safe right now, and they are very nice to look at.

Even more fun to shoot.

Chris_B
May 3, 2012, 07:33 PM
where to these ideas come from??

From trying to read your mind. But like I said and illustrated, I can't see my description happening. ;)

Can somebody get a finger or thumb where it's not supposed to be? Sure.

But you're telling me that by design, the M1 rifle isn't supposed to strip the first round without a bump from the heel of my right hand. Okey dokey, fine. I read it, I just don't have to believe it. I do believe it's fairly rare to have that happen consistently, but I do not believe that the rifle is malfunctioning when it happens. It sounds to me like we are now splitting hairs about a rifle functioning properly or improperly leading to M1 thumb on loading. And my opinion is: on a malfunction, bets are off

Sorry if anyone finds that mean or whatnot. Maybe this isn't my best day but I'm a man that really tries to say what he means to say, and I see no other way to say that- to me, a rifle is broken if it's not working as intended

But Jim for what it's worth, that picture scares me too :) I'm pleased to say it was hard to get my rifle to do it for the photo

amd6547
May 3, 2012, 07:45 PM
Gee..my dad served in combat in Europe during WWII...he always called it Garand. He was in before the war and saw the introduction of the M1.

Jimro
May 3, 2012, 07:51 PM
Don't feel bad, the next generation of kiddoes will refer to the M16 as the "Stoner" at some point in our future...

Jimro

Chris_B
May 3, 2012, 07:59 PM
The Garand monicker reminds me of a discussion re: the scene in Saving Private Ryan when the trooper calls P-51s 'tank busters' that I've had with other collectors.

The term makes them rankle, even when I cite squadrons of the 8th AF that flew P-51s in exactly that role, on D-Day. To some, the term was correct. To others it was not. In the war and after. Just like the term "Garand'- some GIs used it, some didn't. Personally since I didn't know John Garand, and the name of the rifle is the M1 rifle, I usually call it a ham and swiss on rye since it's instantly recognizable anyway

gyvel
May 3, 2012, 11:32 PM
Don't feel bad, the next generation of kiddoes will refer to the M16 as the "Stoner" at some point in our future...

LOL!! The next generation of kids ARE "stoners."

James K
May 4, 2012, 10:58 AM
Hi, Chris B.

I may not have been clear, but I meant to say the opposite - the M1 was designed to load the first round without the operator hitting the op ord handle. I don't know if clip tension might have been increased at some point, perhaps to insure against rounds coming loose in shipping.

I am also looking forward to hearing from all the folks who call the M1 carbine a "Williams".

Jim

springer99
May 4, 2012, 12:04 PM
There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I raised my "Williams" and...................

naw, just dont' sound like I remember it, sorry James.;)

James K
May 4, 2012, 04:02 PM
But if it was an M2 Williams, you could get them all.

Jim

gyvel
May 5, 2012, 12:42 AM
To be honest, there is an awful lot of Thomas C. Johnson in the M1 Carbine, so it would be more approproate to say: "There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I pulled out my "Johnson" and...................":D:D:D

nate45
May 5, 2012, 01:03 AM
Once upon a time I had the stock off my M1 and the bolt open. I was holding it in my left hand balancing it, sitting in a chair. I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb. :eek: So I'm gonna vote fact. In the process of handling one with the bolt back, its possible to close the bolt on a finger, or thumb in several different ways. So care and caution should be used. Its probably not gonna cut your thumb off, but it hurts. :o

Sport45
May 5, 2012, 02:32 AM
I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb.

Sounds like the bolt wasn't locked back, but just hung up on the follower. I'll bet it looked something like Chris_B's photo.

I've never had a M1 close while my thumb was pressing on the top round in the clip.

I do make sure the bolt is locked all the way back before sticking my fingers in there to clean the chamber or anything before firing.

Slamfire
May 6, 2012, 03:07 PM
Anyone notice in this WWII training video that General Douglas MacArthur himself called it "the Garand rifle", and the video itself says it is commonly known as the Garand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo0NLKAvmDM&feature=youtu.be

James K
May 6, 2012, 03:34 PM
OK, I am a believer and all the soldiers and Marines, including WWII vets, I heard call it an M1 were figments of my imagination.

Yes, in the early days of the Garand-Springfield dispute and later in Garand-Johnson controversy, the rifle was commonly called a "Garand" in the popular press as well as in the few gun and hunting magazines that wrote about it. Some people did continue to call it that, but the official manuals, the instructors and the common troops called it what they had been trained to call it, the M1 rifle. The troops called it the M1 to the end of its service life when it was replaced by the M14 ("Son of Garand", maybe) and the "Stoner", aka the M16.

When the CMP began selling those rifles, they had a manual prepared that called it the M1 Garand. I don't know if that resurrected the name, or if it is just a common trend of the Mall Ninjas to name guns (I saw "Glockie" the other day), but the name Garand ("Garry" in one post) has come back in vogue and is used by many of those who run around in cammies and pretend to be veterans of some war or another.

My opinion of the man himself is that he was a genius and that his rifle was what was needed to help the U.S. win over the Axis powers; I have nothing but the highest regard for him, though I only met him one time for a few minutes. So I do not mean to insult his memory by saying that his name was not commonly applied to the rifle he invented. But it wasn't.

Jim

springer99
May 6, 2012, 05:19 PM
Darn it guys, here I was, just getting used to the idea of calling my M-1 Carbine a "Williams" or "Johnson", and now we're back to the Garand idea. I'm just glad I didn't throw out my manuals from the CMP for the M-1 or the Carbine. Call it what you want to; it'll always just be an "M-1" or "Carbine" to me.

OutlawJoseyWales
May 6, 2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks for the info, guys, I've been sitting back waiting for all this "noise" to clear so as to be able to communicate without sounding ignorant. I think those who carried these into battle have the right to call them anything they want. It seems that I am stil safe in saying, "That's my M-1 Garand" and thanking God for having IT and the knowing men who carried them into battle.

gyvel
May 7, 2012, 04:12 AM
My opinion of the man himself is that he was a genius and that his rifle was what was needed to help the U.S. win over the Axis powers; I have nothing but the highest regard for him, though I only met him one time for a few minutes.

That's impressive and a rare privilege.

I dealt with a man in the 70s who worked with Garand, and, apparently knew him well enough to be invited to his home to watch his ice skating. The particular gentleman I knew ended up working as a consultant to Savage in the production of Thompsons, and came up with a brilliantly simple idea to bore barrels concentrically. (Apparently, Savage had problems with barrels being bored off center in the early days.)

Meeting THE MAN himself, though, is a real feather in your cap, Jim.

James K
May 7, 2012, 10:00 PM
Perhaps I should not have mentioned it, as I cannot claim to have "known" Mr. Garand. I was introduced to him at an AOA convention in Washington (about 1958) by an ordnance colonel I knew pretty well. I do recall that the colonel pronounced his name as "Gar' und" with the first syllable like "Gary", and Mr. Garand didn't correct him, so I always assumed that was the right pronunciation, something that seems to be always in question. He seemed like a nice fellow. We shook hands, I said something like "Very pleased to meet you", and he said something about the same, and we went our separate ways. We didn't discuss the finer points of rifle design or what some part of his rifle was intended to do.

Jim

Amsdorf
May 8, 2012, 08:20 PM
Back to the Garand name...

Please watch the military's training videos, made during WWII....they refer to the rifle as the Garand.

I see little point in debating the obvious, but...FWIW.

There you go.

smoakingun
May 8, 2012, 09:07 PM
I made a phone call. To my grandad. He joined the corp in sept. 1939. He retired in 1972. According to him, in bootcamp he was trained with "the springfield". When he reported to his first ship, he carried the 1911. When he went to the infantry in july 1942 he was issued "the Garand". All I can say is, he would know what the Corp called it.

James K
May 8, 2012, 09:20 PM
But Amsdorf, why should I debate when I am obviously right and you are so sadly wrong. ;)

Jim

nate45
May 8, 2012, 09:30 PM
It doesn't matter at this late date. Its like the .45 Colt vs .45 Long Colt debate. If I say Garand, or .45 Long Colt, most everyone knows what I'm referring too and only a few will quibble about the accuracy and authenticity of it.

"I like Garands you load 'em with those springy do-jiggers." "I wish it used clips like muh .45" -random clod Don't waste time correcting this guy, cause wasting time and/or breath is all you're doing.:D

Amsdorf
May 8, 2012, 11:22 PM
The invincibly ignorant will never be able to be corrected...

But, watch the training films the Army made during World War II.

Note, for example, the film made in 1943. Take note of that date.

Then, note that Gen. MacArthur refers to it as "the Garand rifle."

Then, note the narrator refers to it as the M1 .30 Caliber, "commonly known as the Garand."

And so forth and so on.

Case closed.

Let the ignorant remain ignorant.

:)

Amsdorf
May 8, 2012, 11:39 PM
Also, please note how the word "Garand" is pronounced when referring to the rifle. "Guh-rand" with second syllable emphasized.

John Garand's name, however, was pronounced: "Gerh-end" emphasis on first syllable, this is well documented in Julian Hatcher's definitive work on the Garand.

Familiar with that book?

Julian S. Hatcher, The Book of the Garand, Washington, Infantry Journal Press, 1947 [Riling 2645]

What's that? Hatcher calls it a Garand?

What did he know? He was just the guy largely responsible for getting the Garand through the whole R&D, development and production cycle for years.

Another stupid person, I guess, who just doesn't know what he is talking about?

:cool:

springer99
May 9, 2012, 06:42 AM
But, watch the training films the Army made during World War II.

Note, for example, the film made in 1943. Take note of that date.

Then, note that Gen. MacArthur refers to it as "the Garand rifle."

Then, note the narrator refers to it as the M1 .30 Caliber, "commonly known as the Garand."


Please, please, please don't make me sit thru those d.... govt. videos again. :( I've seem them all too many times, and like alot of what the govt. puts out, I believe less than 100% of it. Of course, as Gen. McArther carried one for so long, he must be right, right? ;)

If calling it a Guh-rand makes you feel better, then have at it.

Amsdorf
May 9, 2012, 06:45 AM
Invincible ignorance...there is apparently no known cure.

:rolleyes:

Hardcase
May 9, 2012, 04:00 PM
Seriously? So much fuss over this? C'mon, guys, let's get out and do a little shooting!

And not at ten paces, either! :eek:

Chris_B
May 9, 2012, 04:49 PM
I stand by my earlier conviction: it's called a ham and swiss on rye

SHNOMIDO
May 9, 2012, 05:58 PM
lol^

I think the prevalence of "Garand" comes from the same place as Deagle and PP7

The vidja games.

Im pretty sure it was referred to as the Garand in the old medal of honors and call of duty's.

For what its worth i call it the Garand, and i also say .45 Long Colt. Not because of video games, but because thats the terms my dad used when first describing these things to me at a young age.

The question is, where did he pick it up to pass it on?

1Hobie
May 9, 2012, 07:39 PM
wasn't this about a thumb thingy?:)

Amsdorf
May 9, 2012, 07:41 PM
Yes, go figure, but it tends to bring the old myths out of the woodwork and proves that in spite of all the facts to the contrary, some people are just determined to keep spreading myths, such as the Garand was never called the Garand by anyone until much later....etc. etc. etc.

:rolleyes:

Sport45
May 9, 2012, 07:47 PM
wasn't this about a thumb thingy? :)

Yes. But he went wrong when he called it a Garand thumb instead of a M1 Thumb. ;)

(At least that was what the malady was called when I first learned of it.)

Amsdorf
May 9, 2012, 07:51 PM
There he goes again.

:rolleyes:


No offense, but frankly, I'll take Julian Hatcher's expertise any day over those claiming the Garand was never referred to as the Garand until much, much later. Just ain't true.

Amsdorf
May 9, 2012, 08:21 PM
If I were a moderator on this forum, I'd say, stick a fork in this one, it's done.

Sport45
May 10, 2012, 12:04 AM
I have no idea what they called the rifle in WWII. My dad used the '03A3 in basic and later qualified expert with the BAR. When I'm back home we have better things to talk about than what they called their service rifles then.

I was talking about pinching your thumb when you poke it into an action that hasn't been properly locked back. That was called M1 thumb when it was first described to me. The guy who told me about it wasn't a WWII vet, so maybe it doesn't count? :confused:

I do believe you won't get a M1, M14, M1a, or Garand thumb if you properly lock the bolt back before poking around inside an empty mag well or if you hold your thumb firmly on the top round and then pull it away smartly upon removal. At least no M1 I've handled would let the bolt fly home while my thumb was pressed down on the top cartridge. Having the back of your hand pressed against the bolt handle is added insurance.

Just relating my experience and couldn't care less when we started calling that particular rifle a Garand. I also don't worry about how to pronounce "Garand". I'm sure if he was alive he'd butcher my last name if he tried so I'll consider us even. :)

gyvel
May 10, 2012, 03:09 AM
LOL!! According to Garand's descendants, and Julian Hatcher, the family name rhymed with "errand." (See wikipedia.)

Actually, it was Americanized when the family moved to the U.S. from Canada. (Garand was born in Canada.)

It is a very common name in France and Quebec, and is pronounced entirely different than any American pronunciation.:D (More like "gair-aw" with no specific accent.)

Also, in the early 60s when I was in mandatory ROTC in college, it was called "M1 thumb," as if hours of marching with that 9 pound anchor in the nice hot, humid Florida sun wasn't punishment enough.

Amsdorf
May 10, 2012, 07:23 PM
The rifle was known as the Garand before, during and after WWII.

It was referred to as the M1, it's military designation.

And you will not get the "full smash" Garand/M1 thumb from loading it, only while doing something stupid with an empty magazine and open bolt.

Them's the facts. The facts, and notin' but the facts.

1911Tuner
May 11, 2012, 08:06 AM
"Garand Thumb" is real. I've seen it. It's also like lowering a hammer on a hot chamber. It can be done safely if done correctly. I've handled and fired a lot of Garands over the years, and my thumbs are fine.

When loading the clip or depressing the follower to let the bolt go home, place the back edge of your little finger into the curvature of the charge handle and keep it there while using your thumb. Depress/load until the bolt is released...and roll your hand forward and up. If your pinky is short, use the ring finger. Simple as that.

Most Garands that I've handled don't release the bolt suddenly when seating a clip. The majority of them won't go home at all until the charge handle is helped along after the clip seats.

gyvel
May 11, 2012, 10:06 AM
Most Garands that I've handled don't release the bolt suddenly when seating a clip. The majority of them won't go home at all until the charge handle is helped along after the clip seats.

Ah, but there's always that one...:D

Chris_B
May 11, 2012, 07:34 PM
:) Hi all

I would like to point out again that the premise is not that "M1 thumb" is not a real thing. That's not the idea that was presented. Nobody has posted that M1 Thumb is a myth

pvt.Long
May 11, 2012, 10:55 PM
There's always one time where the blot isn't locked back fully or your just not paying attention to what your doing, I even got garand thumb from my m1a(m14) one time, you don't forget it and it can turn your thumb and your language beautiful colors.

1911Tuner
May 12, 2012, 04:31 PM
Ah, but there's always that one...

And that's why we put the back edge of our little finger against the charging handle.:cool:

PhillipM
May 13, 2012, 12:13 PM
1911Tuner wroteMost Garands that I've handled don't release the bolt suddenly when seating a clip.

If they don't release with a full clip, they have a timing problem.

https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=109

https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/catalog/g-sp0028.jpg

Winchester_73
May 13, 2012, 09:03 PM
I remember the worst case of M1 grand carbine thumb I ever had was when I was shooting an 03 A3. Turns out when you close the bolt with your right hand, you should make sure you left hand's fingers are clear of the breech!

Amsdorf
May 13, 2012, 09:37 PM
Wow, that had to hurt big time.

Chris_B
May 14, 2012, 05:29 PM
I remember the worst case of M1 grand carbine thumb I ever had was when I was shooting an 03 A3. Turns out when you close the bolt with your right hand, you should make sure you left hand's fingers are clear of the breech!

have to call that one something besides M1 thumb though. How about "Springfinger"?

Amsdorf
May 15, 2012, 03:57 PM
Or "1903 Thumb"

Chris_B
May 15, 2012, 04:42 PM
"1903 thumb" really doesn't roll off the tongue gracefully.

amd6547
May 15, 2012, 06:32 PM
"Dumb Thumb" rhymes nicely.

Winchester_73
May 15, 2012, 07:30 PM
Hey kids, I was just mocking this whole thread! I was kidding!

Anyways, there is another gun that could really tear off a finger or three...

...the Egyptian Hakim. I don't have any kind of a story about it, because after I let it close once, I was extremely careful thereafter. It got my imagination going on what damage it could do. Anyone ever get their finger caught by one?

Chris_B
May 16, 2012, 04:43 PM
Hey kids, I was just mocking this whole thread! I was kidding!

I dunno, Win. An image of you with half a hand locked in an 03's breech is powerful and hard to let go

Amsdorf
May 16, 2012, 07:57 PM
Actually, on another gun forum a guy did tell me, and he was not just BSing, that he did somehow manage to get a finger in the action on a 1903A3 and did himself a big disservice.