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old roper
April 28, 2012, 08:13 PM
Here is interesting post from Gale McMillan

From: Gale McMillan <mcmillan@getnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long range Accuracy -
Date: 31 Jan 1996 13:09:35 -0500

Bob: We are on opposite sides of a debate again. The only reason that
the mod.70 ever got anywhere in competition was the smoothness of the
action. Since it gets half the closing cam from the bolt lug and half
from the receiver and because it has a weak firing spring it is very
smooth and easy to operate making it easier to shoot rapid fire.
For a long period during the 80s I built all the Marine Corp match
rifles. The first four thousand yard rifles I built them (on Rem
actions) set and reset the National Record 17 times the first year.
I had the opportunity to see the difference between the Win. and Rem.
when I built 6 Rems. and 6 solid bottom Wins at the same time. The
barrels came off the buttoning machine one after the other and all 12
guns were built exactly the same. When we put them on the return to
battery cradle at Quantico all the Rems. shot under 1/2 M.O.A. and
mod.70s shot 3/4 M.O.A. The 2nd string team shot the Wins. I know you
remember that the Marines dominated the long range shooting during that
period. The only thing that the Army had a chance in was the service
rifle. If you would look at the winners of the Leach Cup and the
Wimbledon during the 80s it will prove my point. The major things
against the mod.70 is the weak firing pin spring gives ignition
problems. The lock time is so slow you can almost pull the trigger and
then make a sight correction before it goes off. Only the Mauser is more
limber. You will never see a Win. used in bench rest competion. They
just can't get the accuracy out of them. Rem actions or custom actions
of the Rem. type are the only thing used. This may be a bitter pill for
Win fans to swallow but the record speaks for itself. Did you ever stop
to think why all the sniper rifles used by all branchs of the service
are built on Rem 700 actions? It is because they shoot straighter!!!!
When you think of bedding you must understand the series of events that
take place during firing. As the barrel and action recoil the force is
to the rear and upward. This lifts the action up stretching the screws
in the process. After the impulse the action settles back onto the
bedding. On a square action, if it is bedded tight on the sides it has a
tendency to stick and not settle back the same every time. If you clear
the sides to prevent this then you get what is called chucking. That is
the action slides back and forth side ways. The Rem. is round and has
much less vertical surface to drag on and acts like a vee block
allowing it to settle back the same way after every shot.

Gale McMillan

jmr40
April 28, 2012, 09:08 PM
I don't disagree. If a true target gun is your goal a Remington type action is the easiest to make shoot straight. I still prefer the Winchester for an out of the box hunting rifle. I own 2 that are 3/4 MOA without any tweaking. A Remington may well be a touch better, but in the hunting fields I cannot take advantage of it.

skywag
April 28, 2012, 09:15 PM
I'd rather have a Model 70.

kraigwy
April 28, 2012, 09:45 PM
I don't disagree.

I do.

Slamfire
April 29, 2012, 11:01 AM
McMillan had a very informed opinion but for those who think equipment is the sole criteria to win in shooting sports are misinformed.

I don’t shoot F class, that target is a ½ MOA target. Maybe those shooters will see, on target, the difference between a ½ MOA action and a ¾ MOA action. I don’t see it in an across the course rifle.

For an iron sighted rifle shot with a sling, a M70 action used to be a fine action. I like mine because it is slick and smooth and reliable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M70%20pics/DSCN0958.jpg

Considering that the 600 yard target is a 2 MOA target, and it is not easy to clean with a 200 because of wind. Wind will blow you out feet from the center, not ¼ MOA. Wind judgment is amazingly critical in long range shooting, you cannot shoot through it.

Kent Reeve won the 2006 Camp Perry Long Range National Championships with a Mauser single shot action.

A Mauser has a lot longer lock time than M70 and is not as stiff, yet Kent won with one. Skill and judgement make a big difference in Long Range.

"I Shot a 300 magnum for the heck of it this summer at one team match during LR Regional. It was a pick up team and all of us were just out for a good time and to test stuff. Had a 100-9x on first 10 shots and that precipitated the idea of taking that rifle to US Nationals at Camp Perry Ohio and shooting it at 1000 yard matches instead of the pea shooter Palma rifle as I've been doing for years. My 300 mag is 10 twist 4 groove Lilja installed by Mark Hunt (an extra barrel he had in his inventory) mated to an Interarms Mauser single shot action with factory trigger in McMillian prone stock. Horrible lock time, but if follow through is right, it doesn't matter.
End result? Won the Nationals!!!
Thanks for making a super barrel!"
Kent

http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/silhouette_hpcomp.htm

For an across the course rifle, M700 and M70 actions are both obsolete. Tub rifles are a better bolt rifle, and it is my opinion, the average shooter will do better with a rifle based around the AR15 action. You don’t have to break position in rapid fire. Carl Bernoski won the Nationals with a semi auto, see the rifle here, http://www.carlbernosky.com/, but the picture from the Hornady site shows him with a bolt rifle. I wonder if it is a sleeved M700 or a different action. I suspect he uses that for Long Range.

http://cdn.ammoland.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Team-Hornady-Carl-Bernosky.jpg

An F class bud of mine, who is a National Champion in unlimited and tactical, made a long range record (like 200-17X) he uses this Bernard action. Thick heavy sidewalls, massive lugs, with machining clearances incredibly tight. Air molecules get road burn between the bolt and receiver. :D

While Mr. McMillan’s comments were interesting in 1996, and interesting from an equipment manufacturer's viewpoint, that was a long time ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/Boltinaction.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/BernadFaceActionDSCN0781faceofactio.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/Boltoveractioncut.jpg

kraigwy
April 29, 2012, 01:20 PM
If I remember right, Carl Bernoski also won the 200 yard slow fire standing stage with a 200-15X (I believe a record).

If you clean the NRA High Power Standing Stage, IT'S NOT THE RIFLE, ITS THE SHOOTER.

That put's him close to the class of Gary Anderson who used a Model 70.

By the way Gary Anderson's International Standing Scores have never been broken. That is on a 300 meter International target.

I have two Model 70 long range rifles, one in '06, one in 300 WM, both are more then capable of cleaning the 1000 yard targets, just not with me shooting them.

And by the way, my best 1000 yards scores were fired with a M1A in 308.

Jimro
April 29, 2012, 02:10 PM
You know I absolutely love it when people talk about the "abysmal lock time" of a Mauser, and then wax poetic about how great a match rifle an AR is.

An AR has a longer lock time than an M98. Even with a top notch aftermarket trigger is only going to cut the AR lock time in half, to around 8 ms.

As far as bedding goes, if you don't want to bed the action use a barrel block and free float the action and barrel. Then it doesn't matter what geometry the action uses.

By the time a shooter can tell the diffence in lock time of the rifle they are using, they are a good enough shot to compensate for the difference.

Jimro

Joe Chicago
April 29, 2012, 09:48 PM
Sadly, Remington has allowed its quality control to slip of late. Meanwhile, FN/Winchester 70s are made in SC and all reports are the current crop of 70s are very hi quality.

old roper
April 30, 2012, 09:03 AM
Here some custom action

http://www.6mmbr.com/actions.html

Slamfire
April 30, 2012, 09:39 AM
By the way Gary Anderson's International Standing Scores have never been broken. That is on a 300 meter International target

I was talking with a an ex Wimbleton Cup winner at a small bore match. We were looking at the National Small bore records. Most were set in the 70's. Tom Whittaker has a bunch. About the only small bore records being broken now are in the Senior category.

RT
April 30, 2012, 09:48 AM
Get both