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View Full Version : Some people just shouldn't be allowed to handle a weapon


Doyle
April 24, 2012, 02:03 PM
Man shoots himself and wife at a firearms safety class:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57420221/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife-at-gun-safety-class/?google_editors_picks=true

Manson
April 24, 2012, 02:10 PM
I wonder if they passed.:D

Glenn E. Meyer
April 24, 2012, 02:13 PM
See husband sell all guns.

OK - we all know the 4 rules. Say them to yourself, yet again.

C0untZer0
April 24, 2012, 02:20 PM
And the picture that they associate with the story - a table filled with rows of guns.

These guys need better stock footage - like maybe a picture of a smoking gun and a bandaged bloody hand or something...

GregInAtl
April 24, 2012, 02:38 PM
Speaking of people that shouldn't be allowed to handle guns, how about these clowns:

http://www.ajc.com/news/newton-county-neighbors-charged-1424231.html

Glenn E. Meyer
April 24, 2012, 02:43 PM
Do we need a list of NDs?

Just follow the rules.

Vanya
April 24, 2012, 03:43 PM
Hmm. Is it still a negligent discharge if you haven't yet learned the Four Rules?

I wouldn't want to be that instructor...

Tom Servo
April 24, 2012, 03:45 PM
I wouldn't want to be that instructor...
I'm not clear as to why students were left unattended with live ammunition.

m&p45acp10+1
April 24, 2012, 03:57 PM
Tom I think the instructor screwed up in assuming that since he was leaving adults in the room that they would have enough sense not to do something as stupid as the man pulled. There are those in this world that just do the dumbest of things.

As Forest Gump said "Stupid is as stupid does."

Vanya
April 24, 2012, 04:16 PM
Tom I think the instructor screwed up in assuming that since he was leaving adults in the room that they would have enough sense not to do something as stupid as the man pulled.
Just so.

But we don't know exactly what did happen, unless someone has found more information than I was able to turn up on Google News... Just that Mr. Deel "accidentally" shot himself and his wife. So we don't know if he was "stupid" or just really, really ignorant.

TenRing
April 24, 2012, 05:31 PM
Wife to husband: "I don't think we need gun permits anymore. If you buy a gun, I'm leaving you."

m&p45acp10+1
April 24, 2012, 05:44 PM
Vanya the man shot himself in the hand. The bullet passe through and hit his wife in the leg. That is not ignorant. When it is an adult that is not mentaly handicapped it is stupid.

Who in their right mind is going to put a gun up to the palm of one hand and pull the trigger?

Vanya
April 24, 2012, 06:05 PM
He was taking a gun safety class. It seems safe to assume that there were things he didn't know.

I don't find it that hard to imagine someone who didn't know better, for example, trying to rack the slide on a semi-automatic pistol by the end with the little hole where the bullet comes out; and it's almost a reflex for untrained people to wind up with their fingers on the trigger when they pick up a gun. Put the two together, and, voilà: hole in hand, hole in wife. :(

We don't know exactly what happened.

I think we can agree that the instructor was stupid to leave the room without securing live ammunition, though.

Tom Servo
April 24, 2012, 06:16 PM
Who in their right mind is going to put a gun up to the palm of one hand and pull the trigger?
One of the odder behaviors I see when people are looking at guns in the shop is that they'll cover the muzzle with their hand when they sweep someone. Yeah, I don't get it either.

Sparks1957
April 24, 2012, 06:29 PM
they'll cover the muzzle with their hand when they sweep someone

Why, isn't that just the same as covering your mouth when you cough? Simply protecting others, isn't it? :rolleyes:

chadstrickland
April 24, 2012, 06:37 PM
Lol ^^

Tom Servo
April 24, 2012, 07:00 PM
Why, isn't that just the same as covering your mouth when you cough?
If you're coughing up lead projectiles at supersonic velocities, I don't know whether to congratulate you for having super-powers or recommend medical intervention :)

Frank Ettin
April 24, 2012, 10:46 PM
I'd like to know why the instructor left the room. In classes taught by my group, there is always an instructor in the classroom.

Students handle guns a lot in our classes, but under the eye of an instructor. And we're constantly reinforcing safety.

In general we find that novices are very awkward with guns. They truly are foreign objects to them, and as a consequence they tend to not have the awareness we take for granted of where out fingers are and where the muzzle is. So we try to work in a lot of gun handling so they become less awkward. And we try to do so with a lot of direct supervision so we can help reinforce safety.

MLeake
April 24, 2012, 11:22 PM
I'm curious as to why there was live ammo in the training room. According to the article, the wife was sitting next to her husband when the incident occurred, and the class was held at a private residence.

Assuming the instructor was NRA certified, one would think he'd have started out by prohibiting ammo from the training room.

Also, based on the fact that the training was being held at a private residence, and the article made no mention of other students, my guess is there was only the one instructor.

Tom Servo
April 24, 2012, 11:29 PM
Assuming the instructor was NRA certified, one would think he'd have started out by prohibiting ammo from the training room.
At the very least, it's usually sequestered to a separate area. When I did First Steps, I insisted on checking and clearing all weapons personally, then doing bag checks. About one in ten students brought a loaded gun in.

When it was time for the range portion, the students were walked to the shooting line, then they waited while I retrieived the ammunition. All weapons were then checked clear before they left.

Somewhere, the instructor got careless or sloppy. The blame lies primarily with the husband, but the instructor could have prevented it.

cookie5
April 24, 2012, 11:37 PM
I would have to say that the gun wasn't loaded.

Frank Ettin
April 25, 2012, 12:19 AM
I would have to say that the gun wasn't loaded.Which is why the First Rule is, "All guns are always loaded." "It wasn't loaded" or "I didn't think it was loaded" is never an appropriate answer.

Tom Servo
April 25, 2012, 12:38 AM
"It wasn't loaded" or "I didn't think it was loaded" is never an appropriate answer.
...and yet it's one I sadly get all the time.

jhenry
April 25, 2012, 07:19 AM
Whenever I sweep the room at the gunshop I stick my finger in the end of the barrel. That way if it goes off the barrel just gets a big bulge in it and no one gets hurt.

JimPage
April 25, 2012, 08:02 AM
Like Larry says, "you can't fix stupid."

Doyle
April 25, 2012, 10:31 AM
Jim, that's actually Ron White's line.

pgdion
April 25, 2012, 10:54 AM
I don't get why there would have been any ammo in the room either. That makes no sense. New shooters, you wouldn't load the magazines unless you're on the range and the magazines don't go in the gun unless you're on the line. I think there was a short coming on the instructor not making sure each gun was clear. I almost wonder if they weren't supposed be handling any guns yet and when the instructor left the room, show and tell began. :eek:

briandg
April 26, 2012, 01:47 AM
but why, oh why, was that pistol loaded???????:confused:

ClydeFrog
April 26, 2012, 02:21 AM
The member post about untrained adults brings up a good point.
It's a smart idea to be alert & aware of range shooters or people handling firearms who may be careless/high-risk.
I try to shoot at indoor ranges near me during the off hours or slow periods to avoid the nutjobs and gun owners who want to show off/play around.
A local rental place just had another gun suicide about 3 weeks ago.
I'd suggest picking up on the unsafe behaviors of untrained adults, like having the index finger on the trigger, waving guns around, improper grips or stances, putting their hands or fingers on the muzzle(I've seen that a few times), shooters who rapid fire or avoid aiming at targets, not paying attention to other lanes or gun owners(this is just crass & rude but I've seen it too).

Range masters or safety officers should monitor these types of untrained shooters and remove them if needed but all gun owners need to follow basic safety regulations.

ClydeFrog

PADefenseTrainer
April 27, 2012, 04:46 AM
I'm curious as to why there was live ammo in the training room.

That was my first question too.

The first thing we do in a training class is to announce and check that there is NO live ammunition in the class room.

icedog88
April 27, 2012, 06:00 AM
Perhaps the instructor saw something in the couple and decided to test Darwin's Theory himself?
Seriously though, is there any explanation from the instructor as to why he left?

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2012, 09:48 AM
Without naming names (yes, I know :rolleyes:) some very famous instructors have left ammo in rifles, left the gun and then had somebody make a boom!

With the number of folks, all stupid things will happen.

ltc444
April 27, 2012, 01:50 PM
In support of Glen's comments. An Army study from some years ago found that the units/soldiers with the highest number of accidental gunshot wounds were the Special Operations soldiers. They also happen to be the most highly trained and proficient soldiers.

Or as the old Country Philosopher said "there an int no cure for a terminal case of the dumb ares".

Doyle
April 27, 2012, 02:12 PM
They also happen to be the most highly trained and proficient soldiers.


Possible explanations for this:
1. They are probably also the ones with the most range time (shear volumn of ammo fired would give more chances of accidents).
2. They are far more likely to be doing live-fire excercies under non-range scenarios (i.e. hostage rescue, close quarters drills, etc. - all contributing to chances for ADs and NDs).

MLeake
April 27, 2012, 02:14 PM
+1 Doyle.

gvw3
April 27, 2012, 03:31 PM
My wife. I wouldn't want to be around here and a squirt gun. She once picked up a revolver off the table and was dry firing it. She never looked to see if it was loaded.

I would never leave a loaded gun around her. :):):)

Nnobby45
April 27, 2012, 06:34 PM
I know, this may not go over to well, BUT.

Seems like we're always very quick to jump on people who have gun accidents.

Yes, some are so stupid as to defy logic and deserve criticism. But when you mix millions of guns and millions of people who, even if they were all reasonably intelligent, you still would have accidents. Same with anything else with inherent dangers.

Someone just like us can have a gun accident. And we do. Cops, Federal officers, citizens, hunters, military.

I wouldn't call Bill Jordan a bozo, but a "stupid" incident killed a colleague and ended his career as a gun writer. He didn't obey rule 1, 3, and 4. I might suggest that each and every one of us has violated the rules more than once.
And there's no excuse for violating the rules.

There's no excuse for a gun accident, and they happen, and there's no excuse and they happen.

This fellow was at least in a gun safety course. Personally I know many good instructors who would have made gun handling protocol quite clear to his students while he was in or out of the room. Don't know what happened in this case as to the student violating instructions or not been properly instructed in the first place.

Instructor: "I was out of the room" translation, "it wasn't my fault".

Student: "I did something stupid" translation "I accept responsibility".
Instructors have responsibilities, also.:cool:

I suspect that if he takes the course again, he'll be the safest student in the class.:)

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2012, 06:46 PM
Well said, Nnobby45

Frank Ettin
April 27, 2012, 07:23 PM
...Instructor: "I was out of the room" translation, "it wasn't my fault"....Actually, as an instructor myself, I see this as a particularly serious issue. These were novices. Novices can be especially unpredictable. An instructor needs to understand that, and conduct himself accordingly.

JimPage
April 27, 2012, 08:43 PM
Doyle: My apologies. I could have sworn I heard it from Larry. At any rate, whoever said it is clever. I'll never forget the line. ::D

Slotback
April 27, 2012, 08:47 PM
jhenry: That's funny!

ClayInTx
April 27, 2012, 09:02 PM
jhenry, I've actually heard line that given as fact.:eek:
.

Tom Servo
April 27, 2012, 09:02 PM
Without naming names (yes, I know ) some very famous instructors have left ammo in rifles, left the gun and then had somebody make a boom!
I know very few instructors who have not had serious ND's.

egor20
April 27, 2012, 09:59 PM
Whenever I sweep the room at the gunshop I stick my finger in the end of the barrel. That way if it goes off the barrel just gets a big bulge in it and no one gets hurt.

http://i2.listal.com/image/187418/936full-support-your-local-sheriff!-poster.jpg
:D

teeroux
April 27, 2012, 10:54 PM
I wonder if they passed.:D

They should I would say they took more lesson on the value of gun safety than anyone else.:p

ClydeFrog
April 29, 2012, 01:12 AM
To add a few points about spec operations troops having ADs & training deaths, I read that in the elite units(CAG, DevGru/SEAL-06, ParaRescue, ISA, etc), there are at least 1 training related death incidents every year. :(
As stated, many spec ops units use live rounds & must learn to shoot in CQB(close quarters). This doesn't include smoke, fog, rain, sea spray, etc.

ClydeFrog

MLeake
April 29, 2012, 01:28 AM
The question is, are they saying they have a higher accident rate per capita, or per round fired?

If a unit fires an average of 20,000 rounds per soldier per year, the accident rate for that unit will probably be higher, per capita, than for a less well trained unit where soldiers average 200 rounds per year.

That doesn't even take into account live fire exercises, or higher numbers of actual combat sorties (where things have more chances to go wrong).

So, I'd be curious to see what the stats like when conditions and round counts are taken into consideration.

rburch
May 1, 2012, 08:06 PM
I've heard a lot about this, and since I live about 45 minutes from where it happened, I'm sure some of it is true, but I'm unable as of yet to figure out what parts are fact, and which are made up.

The one I heard that makes the most sense to me is that it happened before the class started and the gun belonged to the Husband.

But I've heard other accounts that are just as possible, and haven't been able to confirm any of them.

So it might be the Instructor just failed to check the guns.

dec41971
May 1, 2012, 10:43 PM
I don't know who is worse, this guy or the 4yr/o who fired a revolver into shop ceiling? Atleast the 4yr/o kid had the muzzle facing in a "safe" direction! :D
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018113791_apuspawnshopgunchild.html :rolleyes:

TX_QtPi
May 1, 2012, 11:02 PM
well... things that make you go hmm... IF I was married and IF I was trying to kill my husband... I'd take a bullet in the hand and wait for the instructor to leave the room too... just saying...

TheGoldenState
May 1, 2012, 11:29 PM
OK - we all know the 4 rules. Say them to yourself, yet again.

Honestly, and I am going to get reamed for this, but I don't know the four official rules, THOUGH I am supremely confident that I practice/use them.

I have been shooting for 16 years and generally go with "Don't point a gun, whether its loaded or unloaded, at anything you aren't are ok with killing/destroying." and "The day you get comfortable, is the day you get careless."

So, what are the exact official 4 rules? and Whom are they set by? NRA?

(See isn't it better letting you fellas learn me, rather then just looking it up and saving myself the embarrassment).:D

9mm
May 1, 2012, 11:44 PM
People make mistakes all the time, and when it comes to gun rights, people want to blow it up and use this to take away someones right to own guns and carry. People drive and text all the time, accidents happen from that too, but we don't want to drive it into some political thing and remove someones rights.

TailGator
May 2, 2012, 08:55 AM
So, what are the exact official 4 rules? and Whom are they set by? NRA?

The Four Rules are attributed to Jeff Cooper and taught pretty universally, including by NRA-endorsed instructors.

Although some people refer to them as "Rule 1," "Rule 2," etc., the order doesn't really matter.

1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.

As you think about the rules and their application, you see a built-in redundancy that keeps people safe.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 2, 2012, 10:50 AM
Being bored grading papers, I have complied the rules including new ones that we should live by.

1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.
5. Thou shalt not put any gun before the 1911
6. Thou shalt not say bad things about the Glock
7. Thou shalt not covet thy friend’s new gun
8. Thou will shoot on the Sabbath if there is a good match
9. Thou shall shoot to stop and not to kill as a purpose
10. Thou shall not commit adultery as other folks have guns too!
11. Thou shall not bear false pretenses that you were a SEAL
12. Thou shall ask for your lawyer rather than giving false witness to the officers arresting you.
13. Thou shall not buy a Judge lest ye be Judged

I apologize but 66 essays make you nuts.

Frank Ettin
May 2, 2012, 11:49 AM
There are a number of ways the Four Rules have been stated. Here's how they're put at Gunsite (founded by Jeff Cooper):

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/Random%20for%20boards/IMG_0944.jpg

Gunsite is a "hot range", and actually loaded guns are customarily worn on the ranges and throughout the grounds.

So --

If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because I follow Rule One, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.


If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.


If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.


And wherever you are, if your gun is in your hand, you jolly well need to find a safe direction for your muzzle until you've actually got something to shoot at, and you're about to be shooting at it.


And if you're not actually shooting, your finger needs to be off the trigger, whether you're using your sights or not.


And you need to know your target and what's behind it even in a self defense situation. No one is going to pat you on the back and tell you what a splendid fellow you are for wasting poor old Mrs. Smith when trying to avoid getting mugged yourself. (If you ever have a chance to train with Louis Awerbuck, he will have you engaging targets with "non-combatants" in front of behind the "BG" target. It will be up to you to move or place your shots (or in his moving target class, time your shot) to avoid hitting a non-combatant.)

And let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say about Rule One:

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries (http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/), Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries (http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/), vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:

...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries (http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/), vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:

...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....

Frank Ettin
May 2, 2012, 01:48 PM
BTW, Glenn,

I'm going to suggest to the group I teach with that we incorporate your rules 5 - 13 in our lessons ------- with your permission, of course.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 3, 2012, 08:51 AM
Sure - just give me attribution - here that everybody!

scottd913
May 3, 2012, 11:27 AM
i too am unaware of what exactly happened but i know what did not happen.
as a child i learned the four basic rules for handling a gun.
it was drilled in to my head waaaaay before i was alowed to handle live ammo and a gun.
that is what did not happened!!!!!

when i was a child a gun was one of the tools we used to feed our familys.
of cource my papaw also had nice pretty guns that were look not touch but same as the tools in the toolbox that held the needs to keep our automobiles on the road they alone would not take care of the cars. KNOWLEDGE was a necessity!!!
im not sure what area of the country this happened but im sure it was in one of them areas where having a firearm is a gun not a tool!!!

PADefenseTrainer
May 3, 2012, 01:50 PM
7. Thou shalt not covet thy friend’s new gun

I have trouble with #7.

I don't disagree with it. But some of my friends have some REALLY nice guns :)

TheGoldenState
May 9, 2012, 12:32 AM
1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.


Hey that Cooper fella must have had some common sense. Or is it rare sense nowadays?

Thanks Gator and Meyer:)

Double Naught Spy
May 9, 2012, 07:56 AM
Assuming the instructor was NRA certified, one would think he'd have started out by prohibiting ammo from the training room.

Like the Florida NRA certified instructor who shot one of his conceal carry students?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-02-21/news/os-nra-gun-instructor-shoots-student-022020100220_1_gun-safety-nra-church-s-communications-director

Glenn E. Meyer
May 9, 2012, 09:39 AM
Friend of mine took a carry course in Oregon. Instructor fired a 1911 over the tops of class' noggins.

Stuff happens! I've had a IDPA shooter let one into the ground a foot my from toes on the draw.

MLeake
May 9, 2012, 10:00 AM
DNS, my point was not about instructor perfection, it was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.

Instructors err. That does not mean there are no guidelines.

Double Naught Spy
May 9, 2012, 03:41 PM
Wow MLeake, my post wasn't about instructor perfection either. I have no idea where you got the notion that it was or that I was challenging your post in some manner by posting an example supportive of what you said. After all, my post was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines set by the NRA who has certified him as an instructor, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.

Of course, there would be no such incidents and certainly none with injuries if folks follows basic safety rules. The issue of being NRA certified would not be relevant at all of folks followed the safety rules.

it was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.

Nobody has suggested otherwise.

However, a point that you obviously missed is that by being an NRA certified instructor does not mean he follows the guidelines. There is no magical protection that comes with being NRA certified. He violated the safety rules. He violated the NRA guidelines for instruction.

Brian Pfleuger
May 9, 2012, 03:44 PM
Hey that Cooper fella must have had some common sense. Or is it rare sense nowadays?

Thanks Gator and Meyer:)

I've determined that we assume the wrong definition of common... Common CAN mean what we normally think, basically that there's a lot of it but it can also mean available or owned by/for everyone.

Like in the old days, a town may have had a "common" well. It was available to everyone.

Just like "common" sense, just because the well was there doesn't mean people didn't die of dehydration. ;)

Tom Servo
May 10, 2012, 10:44 AM
However, a point that you obviously missed is that by being an NRA certified instructor does not mean he follows the guidelines.
I've seen all too much of that. I dealt with a guy a couple of years ago who was teaching First Steps, and he skipped the part showing students how to disassemble their guns. The reason? "YouTube has videos on that." That might explain why he was finishing the whole class in just over an hour.

We also had a local hunter-safety instructor who was using his time to lecture students on politics and give some atrocious (and legally erroneous) self-defense advice.

The NRA certification courses are pretty clear on what is to be taught, and how it is to be taught, but that doesn't stop some folks from completely disregarding those factors once they're out in the wild.

Gossettc68
May 16, 2012, 09:03 PM
When I took my CHL a few years back I actually wondered why the instructor allowed the students to handle firearms PRIOR to taking the initial written tests.

That being said, either way you can't get around the fact that people will just do stupid things regardless of the situation.

FrontSight
May 23, 2012, 11:24 AM
LOL, I have to chuckle at the mention of Jeff Cooper and his rules.

Because I guess very few people know this, but he himself had a ND once.

A friend of his recounted the story after he passed; it was in one of the gun rags, paying tribute to the Colonel.

Summary of itgoes like this" The Colonel bought a beautiful .44 Magnum Revolver and was showing it to his friend, admiring it and dry firing it while he pointed it at some kind of meter (electric?) outside his office window...click click click BOOM! A perfect shot through the window and into the meter.

He was stunned, and could only say "That doesn't happen to me..."

So, folks, ANYONE can have an ND...

KevK.
May 24, 2012, 09:00 PM
I was at a training class and all of the students were at the firing line firing 6 rounds at paper targets from about 3 yards. The guy in the booth next to me fired off his very quickly and put 3 rounds into my target and didn't hit anything but backstop with the other 3. All this was before I even fired.

I put my gun back onto the bench without firing a shot and spoke up to the Range Master. The guy argued that he didn't shoot at my target, I just only hit mine 3 times. The Range Master checked both weapons and kicked him from the class.

That man should not ever hold a gun.