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View Full Version : H&K, Walther, or SIG


Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 09:53 PM
Which is better, SIG, Walther, or HK, they are the favorite, and currently, only, German small arms manufacturers I can think of, and I want to know which one is best, as far as handguns are concerned. be sure to vote in the poll above.

Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 09:57 PM
And please, I already know SIG is also based out of Switzerland, but as far as I am concerned, they're German

Webleymkv
April 21, 2012, 10:17 PM
And please, I already know SIG is also based out of Switzerland, but as far as I am concerned, they're German

Its not just as far as you're concerned. The only model of Sig handgun ever widely available in the U.S. that was made completely in Switzerland was the P210. Part of the reason that Sig partnered with Sauer was to have manufacturing facilities in Germany (and later the U.S.) rather than Switzerland in order to get around Switzerland's rather restrictive firearm export laws.

The later Sig Pro 2009 (and possibly other models of Sig Pro) had its frame made in Switzerland, but the rest of the handgun was U.S. made.

Between the three gun companies you list, I personally like the current offerings of Walther better than the current offerings of the other two (though all three have discontinued models that pique my interest) simply because Walthers seem more comfortable in my hands than Sigs or HK's.

Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 10:23 PM
Good point, especially if you are talking the Walther ppq, though HK makes the very similar P30, it has a nearly identical grip to the PPQ, It's almost the same gun from a different company

C0untZer0
April 21, 2012, 10:36 PM
IMO HK has the largest stable of top-notch engineers.

Their P7 was a stroke of genius, and everything they make is just top-notch.

On the other hand - Walther has made the best striker-fired trigger out there - some pretty nifty engineering in and of itself and H&K doesn't have a pistol in that form factor or smaller...

Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 10:47 PM
I recently got the oppurtunity to run a hk p30L through its paces, great gun, it has pratically no recoil,(compared to most other 9mm's) it's a reasonable size for a ccw, and has the best grip ever, i want to get one soooo bad, only downsides are: the heavy DA/SA trigger,(which caught me by suprise, as it was my first time shooting a pistol)and the three dot sights, which i find hard to line up.

JustThisGuy
April 21, 2012, 11:05 PM
We own a Sig P229 (9mm), Walther PPS (9mm) and Walther PPQ (.40).

They are all truly great guns. The Walthers have simply the best trigger ever put onto a striker-fired weapon. They are a joy to shoot, deadly accurate and have very soft recoil.

The Sig, well it's a Sig. Once you get past the DA round, the SA rounds are always right on target. And, with 4-18 round magazines, you are not likely to run out of ammo.

Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 11:19 PM
The DA/SA trigger is a force to be reckoned with, first time I used a gun with one, most of the shells hit me in the chest.

Gunnut17
April 21, 2012, 11:45 PM
Best guns from all 3 companies:

HK P30

SIG Sauer p229R

Walther PPQ/PPS

alanheaberlin
April 22, 2012, 12:23 AM
I'm presently shopping for a carry piece of small stature and have committed to a .380, having already a nice Sig 220 and a 9 mm of the CZ variety. I've studied and sampled most of the little DA only. While durable enough and proven shooters there is some aesthetic missing for me. I pretty much decided it had to be a design with a hammer and a visible safety lever. The new (old) Colt Mustang cries out to me. The Sig 280 (enough like the Colt that the mag from one fits the other), is equally attractive. The pistol I've decided upon is the Walther PPK/S in stainless steel. I've always been a fan of the Walther and remember vividly when M made James Bond trade his little Baretta .25 for "proper gun, not that thing fit for a ladies handbag..."
It's a substantial handful of real steel. I'm not sure how they make polymer, but I do know how they make steel and I trust it. 7+1 in the ammo department, hammer drop safety and a classic design that couldn't be much improved for 80 years or so, pretty much has me sold.

Gunnut17
April 22, 2012, 12:30 AM
Personally, I Would use 9mm for Concealment, the walther pps has the size of a ppk with better ergonomics and more stopping power, not to mention the 8+1 capacity. Though the .380 is adequate.

alanheaberlin
April 22, 2012, 12:40 AM
Eventually, I expect to have my wife carrying the PPK. If I think I'm going to need a gun, I'm taking the .45. However, if I'm going to carry, I'm carrying all the time and a lighter, smaller pistol is more to my liking.

Gunnut17
April 22, 2012, 01:09 AM
Same here, if I were to carry a gun, I'd bring a gun that won't be too heavy.

lechiffre
April 22, 2012, 02:45 AM
I have to go with HK, because I don't need to list qualifiers like I do with the other two.

With Walther I have to exclude models made by Umarex and S&W. With SIG/Sauer I Have to exclude Exiter models and the Mosquito.

Justin Appleseed
April 22, 2012, 03:21 AM
I used HK in the service, as a infiltration specialist there's nothing like the feeling of a sub sonic 9mm from the USP smooth and silent, that gun never failed me once. With that said.. I agree on the Walther having the absolute finest trigger for that type of weapon, my daughters 5/7 have a P22 with about 10k rounds through it, its been flawless! My EDC is a Sig P238, love this gun, it's performance, accuracy, build, it's fit in my hand like my wife's...just saying! It literally feels like a P229 and quality, it's a Sig! In all seriousness, you can't go wrong with any of these manufactures. I've been more than happy with all of them, the only other weapon I own that IMHO could compare is my Nighthawk T3 Comp. I've sold and traded off pistols for years, just like my 642.. I'll never sell it!

PSP
April 22, 2012, 05:13 AM
I was tempted by the "all great", but then remembered the question asked for the "best", and that would be HK.;)

Gunnut17
April 22, 2012, 12:27 PM
Walther p22, I think one of those things would be perfect for an assassination attempt, as long as you had a suppressor and subsonic rounds, i imagine.


Anyone know how to put up one of those quotes? I want to be sure the right people read the right replys.

Gunnut17
April 22, 2012, 01:32 PM
Not that I would kill anyone.:)

fastbolt
April 22, 2012, 04:43 PM
Okay ... leaving aside the silly comments about "assassination attempts" and .22's ... :rolleyes:

I'm in the general camp that feels they're all decent enough for their intended service/defensive pistol roles (when we're talking about service-type pistols).

As an armorer for Walther 99 and Sig pistols, I have a passing familiarity with their guns. I didn't attend the HK pistol armorer class (wasn't interested in that one at the time), but I know a couple of guys who support USP's as armorers (and have listened to their opinions, experiences and complaints ;) ).

As an armorer, from the support & maintenance perspective I'd rate the guns ... if it were my money being spent ... as Walther, Sig & then HK.

All of them have their advantages & disadvantages (more advantages). All share the somewhat typical German penchant for over-engineering. (I can say that, being half German, and with my son having married into an actual German family. ;) ) The HK comes closest to being eligible for being an honorary Cuckoo Clock, though, as far as parts. :D

I'd be content to carry any of them as issued weapons, though. Wouldn't really matter when it comes down to rugged reliability. The quality of all of them is decently serviceable. Yes, the Sigs have a reputation as being more of a "wet gun" (boy, did they repeat that enough times in the armorer class), but we're not talking about dripping wet. Just properly lubricated, where recommended (able to be confirmed by touch and sight).

Given my druthers, I do tend to prefer the traditional double action guns for that type of service pistol, meaning I don't really care for the Sig Enhanced Double Action (what they call the DAK) or the HK LEM.

I think the Walther sear housing that offers both DA & SA trigger modes (what they presently call their Anti-Stress model) offers the best of both worlds. A decent DA trigger that becomes very smooth with use, and a SA trigger that's even better than the PPQ (being slightly lighter than that of the PPQ, although the trigger travel movement is similar).

They've revised and refined the 99 series over the years. pretty good guns.

They also pioneered the backstrap insert as a standard feature. (Although the original 3 backstrap insert selection never really provided me with one that was "just right", but that's splitting hairs.)

Just my thoughts.

kinoons
April 23, 2012, 11:15 PM
I live in a 3 walther gun home, with one HK sprinkled in for good measure. I had a sig p6 that I just didn't feel for.

For my money it's walther.

LockedBreech
April 23, 2012, 11:30 PM
From my purely subjective perspective, it's HK for quality, Sig for style, and Walther for ergonomics.

fivepaknh
April 24, 2012, 05:16 AM
I have an HK USP .45 compact, a SIG P229 .40, my next gun will be a Walther PPQ. They're all good, but I chose HK. They really don't have any lemons and look at the success of their MP5 sub-guns.

temmi
April 24, 2012, 12:39 PM
I have an H&K and Sig,

Walther PPS soon

Snake

sigarms228
April 25, 2012, 03:34 PM
I have more than a few SIGs and a Walther PPQ. I tried a couple various HKs including the P30 and just did not like the trigger action quality while my SIGs are great and I have not had a SINGLE issue with thousands of rounds through my SIGs. However SIG, HK, and Walther all make top notch pistols IMO so that is the way I voted. Walther is kicking ass BIG time with sales and praise on their PPQ. IMO SIG, HK, and Walther are a definite step up above the other mass produced pistol manufacturer offerings.

If you buy a pistol from any of these and it works well for you then you are in great shape.

balance
April 25, 2012, 03:37 PM
I have to go with HK, because I don't need to list qualifiers like I do with the other two.

With Walther I have to exclude models made by Umarex and S&W. With SIG/Sauer I Have to exclude Exiter models and the Mosquito.

My qualifier with H&K would have to be the HK-4, H&K's first pistol. I don't want any pistol only designed to fire 500 rounds in it's lifetime. Even the Umarex Walther P22 should last longer than this.

Post #40

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/139818-what-redheaded-stepchild-hk-4.html

I voted "They're All Great", because I think these three manufacturers make some of the best defensive pistols today, and each has made major innovations in the past that changed the way defensive pistols were designed, and these innovations are still being used today. Sig improved the Browning locking system of how the barrel locks to the slide, Walther was the first to make a defensive pistol that was safe to carry with one in the chamber with the safety off, and H&K was the first to make a polymer pistol.

I don't think there is a "best", just a "most preferred" by the individual.

GregInAtl
April 25, 2012, 04:07 PM
My Sig Sauer 226 E2 9mm has always been my favorite gun. About a month ago, I bought a Walther PPQ. The PPQ is gaining ground on the Sig 226 so far as being my favorite gun.

Coltman 77
April 25, 2012, 04:15 PM
I voted HK. :)

IMO, they make some of the best production handguns available on the planet.

HK's are built like tanks, well tested, extremely accurate, reliable to a fault and devour any ammo they're fed.

ScotchMan
April 25, 2012, 08:24 PM
HK then Walther then Sig. I wish all of the above companies would offer both striker and hammer-fired designs, but I suspect that would be expensive from a manufacturing standpoint.

TunnelRat
April 25, 2012, 09:12 PM
I voted HK but I wouldn't cry if you gave me a Walther or SIG. :) I own a Walther P99AS in 9mm, a SIG P229 in 40SW, an HK45c in 45ACP ;), and an HK P2000 in 9mm. Of all of them I just like the HK45c the best. But if I'm honest I might shoot the P99 better than any of them, it is a sweet shooter. For a metal framed pistol SIG is always my choice.

sliponby
April 25, 2012, 09:56 PM
I went with "they're all great" even though the PPQ is the only one of those manufacturers that I own. I would gladly own an HK or Sig and someday maybe I will...

Fishbed77
April 25, 2012, 11:44 PM
Walther p22, I think one of those things would be perfect for an assassination attempt, as long as you had a suppressor and subsonic rounds, i imagine.

The P22 is not made by Walther. It is made by Umarex.

IMightBeWrong
April 26, 2012, 02:58 PM
Voted for all 3. Seriously, they're all dead even as far as I'm concerned when it comes to design quality, fit and finish, and reliability. It all comes down to preference after that. HK has a stronger foothold here in the US than Walther or SIG, but both Walther and SIG make just as outstanding a weapon if you ask me. It all comes down to what feels best in hand, what you shoot well with, etc. Picking between a P226, PPQ, and P30 if I could only own one, EVER, would be quite the difficult choice.

Aiko
April 26, 2012, 05:07 PM
I have owned various HK USPs over 16 years, must be a reason I keep buying
:-)

RC20
April 28, 2012, 02:46 PM
I didn't vote for any of them.

I like Sig and HK and I think they are both equall. No experience with '
Walther.

It depends on what you want and how much you pay.

We get down to specifici guns and features then I will vote.

SP2022 vs HK30 for instance. I would go with the Sig. Price and combination of features. HK is very good but so is the Sig. I could easily see someone prefering the HK and that does not detract from the Sig

Fishbed77
April 29, 2012, 12:25 PM
I voted Walther.

The P99AS is equal to the SIG and HK pistols in most respects, and better in all the remaining ones (especially in respects to the amazing trigger and ergonomics, weight, and even fit & finish).

Costs about $200-$300 less as well. A win-win all around.

RC20
April 29, 2012, 12:35 PM
Infor on the Walther is enought to get me to want to take a look (I have one but an old PPK 32 caliber that is a slico matic and ....l

However, you should look at SP2022 prices, if the Walther is $200 less, then its a $200 gun. The SP2022 runs $400 and probably the sinlge best buy out there (considering it has night sights at that price with some shopping and the standard rail)

RC20
April 29, 2012, 01:24 PM
Looking at it, it has the same size as an SP2022 and no safety

Call me old fashioned, but I either want a safety on a striker (MP type) or a good stong DA pull like the Sig of HK

So, I may hanlded this one just to see, but for the size and no benefit as you have to put it in a holseter just to be safe, I would go with Sig and HK.

Quality, hmmm, to me thqats more than just what they put on it, but what they don't

PPQ226guy
April 29, 2012, 02:25 PM
I currently own only three pistols... a P226R, A PPQ, and a USP 9. I had to vote all great..

balance
April 29, 2012, 02:59 PM
Looking at it, it has the same size as an SP2022 and no safety

Call me old fashioned, but I either want a safety on a striker (MP type) or a good stong DA pull like the Sig of HK

So, I may hanlded this one just to see, but for the size and no benefit as you have to put it in a holseter just to be safe, I would go with Sig and HK.

Quality, hmmm, to me thqats more than just what they put on it, but what they don't

The SP2022 doesn't have a safety either. The P99 AS has a DA first shot after it is decocked, just like the Sig.

wild cat mccane
April 29, 2012, 05:31 PM
The Sig 2022 is a great addition but it gives up some to the Walther. Consider the grip on the 2022: super rough texture, fat, not ergonomically shaped. Reset isn't that great on the trigger.

The Sig 2022 is cool, but it simply couldn't cost more than the usual $420 that it does (one mag remember). A Berreta PX4, Glock, Walther, and even a 24/7 Taurus would become more attractive if it cost more.

HK wins for sure offering number. Pretty large selection.

Walther in what you get wins completely however.

TunnelRat
April 29, 2012, 08:17 PM
The P99 AS is significantly lighter than the SP2022. It also has a longer barrel, not by much but still longer, and the same capacity and yet is both shorter in length and height. It comes with two magazines as opposed to one at the price point mentioned and the only thing it lacks next to the SP2022 are night sights. In addition it comes with a lifetime warranty through Smith and Wesson as opposed to SIG and S&W has, IN MY EXPERIENCE, a better CS department in terms of paying for shipping and not hassling customers about repairs. S&W will also cover the firearm regardless of whether or not you are the original owner. All this is in Walther's favor.

Do I think the SP2022 is good value? Yes very much so. Would I pay the extra for the P99? In a heart beat.

RC20, I know you love that gun, but honestly my friend it's getting a little old when you peddle it constantly. There are a lot of great guns out there, I hope you venture out at some point.

Fishbed77
April 29, 2012, 09:24 PM
Do I think the SP2022 is good value? Yes very much so. Would I pay the extra for the P99? In a heart beat.

My thoughts exactly. The P99AS is, without a doubt, a better value than the SP2022, even though it costs about $200 more.

The SP2022 is definitely a fine pistol, but it does not match the P99 in refinement, ergonomics, fit & finish (I don't know why Walther polymer is so much nicer-feeling and looking than everyone else's, but it is) and especially the trigger.

TunnelRat
April 29, 2012, 09:51 PM
I would also like to state that I just recently purchased a Walther P99AS through a local dealer for only $550, not drastically more than a SP2022.

B.N.Real
April 29, 2012, 10:03 PM
Only my opinion here so don't get the villagers out to the mill for me.

Of the three,I think H&K makes the best most consistently high quality handgun-but you will pay for it-their prices are very high.

Walther has some outstanding models and is almost on par with H&K-the Walther PPS line is amazing and even H&K has nothing like it.

Sig sadly has fallen into the modern era of mass handgun production for the absolutely cheapest cost per unit for them to make.

The old Sigs were absolutely balls on great.

The new Sigs-not so much.

insaneranger
April 30, 2012, 01:35 AM
Hard to pick, but since I haven't owned a Walther yet, I would have to give pure rock solid-built like a tank vote to the HK USP45. It was the first pistol built to handle the explosive 45 Super round right out of the box thanks to their dual recoil spring design. The stock V1 trigger sucks, but they're the toughest mother in the bunch. Next I would vote on the SIG P229 & P226, but between the two I favor the more compact design of the P229 for carry. I own a .40/P229 & added a .357 barrel & it's been 100% reliable and very accurate for me in both calibers. I'll grab a Walther one of these days, but for now I'm enjoying my SIG & H&K.

NWCP
April 30, 2012, 04:12 AM
Of the three listed I'd say HK makes the better pistols of the them all. The early Walther pistols are some of the most beautiful designs out there, but the HKs still reign supreme when it comes to reliability and accuracy.

chadio
April 30, 2012, 09:00 AM
(because of the control layout - takedown, decocker, slide catch, mag release, hammer)

SIG Sauer works for me.

DBLAction454
April 30, 2012, 12:17 PM
H&K IMO are the best handgun manufacturers in the world. They are overbuilt tanks and HK does more testing on their own weapons than any other major manufacturer...

Not saying that Glock, Springfield, S&W, Ruger, and many others don't make quality weapons... Im just saying that in my personal experience HK comes out on top. My HK have NEVER failed.

The downfall? They are big $$$. But I happily pay the price.... other people perhaps not.

I'm really not a fan of SIG because of their huge downfall in reliability once they moved to the US. They allowed their parts to be outsourced and QC was awful and their reputation went to %^$#. Some people have great luck with them. But I will not buy one. Its a shame because SIG makes some nice firearms but the beauty is only skin deep.

chadio
April 30, 2012, 01:03 PM
I'm really not a fan of SIG because of their huge downfall in reliability once they moved to the US. They allowed their parts to be outsourced and QC was awful and their reputation went to %^$#. Some people have great luck with them. But I will not buy one. Its a shame because SIG makes some nice firearms but the beauty is only skin deep.

That's why you buy an old German one ;):)

RC20
April 30, 2012, 10:44 PM
RC20, I know you love that gun, but honestly my friend it's getting a little old when you peddle it constantly. There are a lot of great guns out there, I hope you venture out at some point.

TunnelRat

If you would care to buy me some of the guns you like then I would be happy to test them and report on them!


You should note that I also have shot the HK P30 a fair amount side by side with the Sig.

While I think its a very good gun, the Sig stand up with it equally. Not exactly, but the overall matches up as being equal and at about half the price.

Not sure what more you can ask of a gun that it be reliable first and foremost. As the Sig has been 100% (HK as well) then what are you paying more for?

Points granted on single magazine which puts the Sig to $440 (with night sights).

Now if someone likes the HK better and can afford it, then its an excellent gun.

However, I do think the SP2022 would come out as by far the best value in a DA/SA. As I do not care for strikers I would not compare it to one of those directly other than what and why my preference is.

So, where I feel an honest assessment is asked for I will continue to give Kudos to the Sig.

ScotchMan
May 1, 2012, 10:32 AM
No one is saying other guns won't fill the role of an HK. The topic of the thread is a choice between the three (in my opinion) best makers of firearms today. A Ruger or S&W will do what they do 99-100% as well, absolutely. Just like a Toyota Camry will ultimately accomplish the same thing as a BMW 5 series.

sigarms228
May 1, 2012, 12:59 PM
If I had to rank then IMO it would be SIG, then Walther, and then HK. They IMO are all very top tier mass produced pistols.

Kind of like what kind of lawn mower to buy - Honda, Snapper, or Toro. I have a Honda.

sigarms228
May 1, 2012, 01:02 PM
I would also like to state that I just recently purchased a Walther P99AS through a local dealer for only $550, not drastically more than a SP2022.


That was a great deal -- congrats!

RC20
May 1, 2012, 10:27 PM
Back to I just can't rank Sig or HK them on pure quality (Walther aside as I have not tried one though I am going to give it a shot at the LGS). For me the deal decider is price.

Also not sure why HK is considered a tank. The P30 is nice, nothing chincy about it in the least, but it is light (maybe lighter than the Sig have not checked).

I do know that both the HK and the Sig feel a lot better than any of the other guns I tried.

So, as far as quality goes I simply rank HK and Sig even and take a pass on the Walther (I do own an ok PPK and its a very nice feeling action though I have not shot it yet). Suspect its irrelevant as things have changed vastly (action the same but Sig did away with the safety).

If I can get one to handle and assess I will vote (assuming I like it, otherwise no as I simply can't choose on quality for one over the other so it has to be all or none with the poll setup) ....

So, any choice of the three I suspect its just a mater of preference (how you like it, price or .....) and enjoy what you buy and good shooting!

ps: TunelingRat (grin) has not contacted me yet for the date he is shipping me the new guns. I am very disappointed.

TunnelRat
May 1, 2012, 11:59 PM
ps: TunelingRat (grin) has not contacted me yet for the date he is shipping me the new guns. I am very disappointed.

I wouldn't want to deprive the SP2022 of its biggest fan.

My point was that there are so many great guns out there it is a waste to be so myopic.

ScotchMan
May 2, 2012, 08:10 AM
Also not sure why HK is considered a tank. The P30 is nice, nothing chincy about it in the least, but it is light (maybe lighter than the Sig have not checked).

I think they/we are referring to durability, not weight. Lightweight is just another bonus assuming recoil characteristics are desirable.