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View Full Version : Unarmed Man Attempts Robbery of Open Carry Proponent


Bartholomew Roberts
April 20, 2012, 10:49 AM
http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/unarmed-man-attempts-to-rob-emu-student-carrying-holstered-gun/

An Eastern Michigan University student was walking on Pearl Street near the campus when a man approached him and attempted to grab his holstered handgun. The student was able to hold on to it until a second passerby came to his aid and the attacker fled the area.

Just a reminder that if you are going to open-carry, you need a very high-level of situational awareness, good retention skills, and a retention holster. This is not the first case, and won't be the last case, where an open-carry person was targeted for their firearm.

besafe2
April 20, 2012, 10:52 AM
And this is why imho open carry is not smart.

Big Shrek
April 20, 2012, 10:57 AM
If you have the right holster & training, its not an issue...
also helps to be a 6'3 gorilla that looks like he would eat your spleen... ;)

kraigwy
April 20, 2012, 11:29 AM
I openned carried as a cop. It wasn't uncommon for someone to try for your revolver when rolling around on a bar room floor.

Since I retired I carry in my pocket. No one has ever tried to get my revolver.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 20, 2012, 12:09 PM
Swat officer was killed with his own gun, not far from where we live. He saw a burglar, got physical and his gun was taken

Was a tragedy.

C0untZer0
April 20, 2012, 02:54 PM
A good retention holster and a backup gun on the weakside.

The situation in this story wasn't resolved until a second person helped the student.

Probably good tactics not to rely on someone coming to your rescue.

dayman
April 20, 2012, 05:37 PM
A good retention holster and a backup gun on the weakside.
So, open carry requires that you carry 2 guns? Would the BOB be concealed, or would a Bill Hickock rig be better? :p

In all seriousness though, guns - as we all know to well - are expensive, and open carry is basically advertizing a big payday for anyone who can take it from you.
Plus, outside of the woods, it makes you look a little foolish.

Nnobby45
April 20, 2012, 05:59 PM
The case for open carry isn't just YES or NO.

If you open carry, you deter most criminals. They'll stay away from you.

The ones that aren't deterred are the most dangerous among them. With those individuals, you've not only given away a tactical advantage, you've called attention to yourself and attracted them to you.

Some OC just to emphasize their right to carry and are looking for attention. There might be maturity issues with such individuals.

Others OC because that's the only way they can under the law. Some OC in certain situations, like rural envronments, while camping, etc.

In some professions you might as well open carry. Jewelry store owners, gun shop owners, etc. can usually be assumed to have weapons close, if not on them, and there isn't much tactical advantage lost if one open carries.

ClydeFrog
April 20, 2012, 07:07 PM
I agree with the forum members that if you open carry or are an armed professional, a secure holster/retention system is ideal.
A level II or III holster can also prevent mishaps/embarrassments too, ;).
I had my loaded Ruger GPNY slide out of a cross-draw Blade-tech holster in the mid 2000s. I was going to a service station & leaned over a tad far: :(.

For an unarmed subject(who's not intoxicated or an EDP) to attack an armed citizen is just dumb. It reminds me of the media report I heard of a local fast food joint that had a robber use the drive-thru to hold up the employees. Not too strange you'd think for the staff to comply but the crook was using a knife! Also it was a late night/early morning incident & all the doors were secured.

I know many people aren't; "ready to roll" but to deal with a knife holder when you are in a locked bldg isn't very complicated IMO.

ClydeFrog

animal
April 20, 2012, 07:29 PM
the backup weapon for the "weak side" (assuming a concealed knife is legal) - IMO a fixed blade knife is better. If you’re having to go for your backup, chances are, you’re in a scuffle.

Despite what some people might think, a knife requires training too. IMO, MORE training than a gun.

9mm
April 20, 2012, 09:44 PM
Pus, outside of the woods, it makes you look a little foolish.

Really? Maybe he isn't 21 and can't CC, he is not allowed his rights by CCing so he is allowed to OC. How is that foolish? Maybe the states need to allow CC at age 18.

Tom Servo
April 20, 2012, 09:53 PM
The student was able to hold on to it until a second passerby came to his aid and the attacker fled the area.
This part troubles me the most. Obviously, the gun was an attractant, not a deterrent, and the student hadn't prepared for that eventuality. What if the assailant had struck him first instead of reaching for the gun? What if the assailant had been just a bit meaner or more determined?

Was the student serious about carrying a weapon, or was he mistaking it for a symbol? There's a difference.

johnwilliamson062
April 21, 2012, 12:19 AM
One incident leading to all these conclusions. You guys sound like a bunch of newspapermen.

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2012, 12:32 AM
One incident leading to all these conclusions. You guys sound like a bunch of newspapermen.

As noted, this isn't the only incident of its type. Even if it is the only incident, it doesn't mean the perspectives are in error, but only that they are not based on a large data set.

Alaska444
April 21, 2012, 12:43 AM
Open carry is an issue of attraction to someone attempting to steal a gun. Not an issue in CA any longer is open is not longer legal.:confused::confused:

I much prefer concealed carry and keeping that secret for my own tactical advantage if God forbid I ever had to consider that.

Jeremiah/Az
April 21, 2012, 01:12 AM
Open carry was the only legal way to carry here in Az. from statehood until a few years ago.

LockedBreech
April 21, 2012, 01:17 AM
To me, open carry by non-LEO is the gun community equivalent of chewing with your mouth open. I think you should be able to do it, but boy oh boy do I think it's poorly thought out.

Too many OC'ers have the same craptastic attitude as the folks on YouTube who do all they can to provoke police officers. Much more about ego than anything else, and makes gun owners look like huge d-bags to the scared folks who see it (and, you know, vote on state and local gun laws)

Just one man's opinion. I do make an exception for open carry only jurisdictions. If that was the only way for me to carry, I'd do it. As for me, it'll always be concealed. I'll leave it to my bro to OC his G22 along with his badge and cuffs.

johnwilliamson062
April 21, 2012, 01:41 AM
I remember reading of one instance where a guy was talking a lot flashing his gun around open carrying and some one took it from him, seemingly to shut him up as much as anything.

There is this case.

Where are the others?

This came up before talking about civilians open carrying getting shot first. No one could come up with any stories where it happened if I remember correctly.

Yes it is a bit like waving a $500 bill around. For a long time I wore an $800 watch. Lots of people now walk around with $500+ phones on their belt openly without thinking twice.

I have been in situations where I was escorting tens of thousands of dollars cash. Sometimes alone and in a fairly conspicuous manner. I was once walking across downtown Dayton with a manilla envelope bulging with cash. Walking right by drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, and other interesting fellows. No gun.

I bet this was more political than financial.

When openly carrying in a politically charged arena, and college campuses have all been so the last few weeks, it is best not to go alone.

icedog88
April 21, 2012, 05:57 AM
Do you become a target of opportunity if you OC, or are you stalked? Is it much like a purse snatcher? It would be interesting to interview convicts to ask their opinions. I wonder how many are actually deterred by OCer's and how many are enticed by it.
Here in CT, we are issued Carry Permits. Not CC. It is not against the law to OC, but you can be arrested for breach of peace if someone does call the police if your weapon is visible or becomes so. IMO, in this state, OCer's are not doing it for practical purposes so much as statement carrying. A few months back, the GF and I were at Dick's sporting goods. A large (300-330lb,6'3") man was at the counter OCing. I took a look at his rig and the first thing I noted was that his pants were not well secured, making his rig more of a drop leg. Not the most secure way to OC I think. To me, that was a statement carry.

ClayInTx
April 21, 2012, 10:59 AM
Unless CC is illegal and OC is legal I see no reason to OC. I do wish OC was legal in Texas for the reason that if my gun becomes exposed to view I’ll not be arrested for it.

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2012, 02:53 PM
Open carry is an issue of attraction to someone attempting to steal a gun. Not an issue in CA any longer is open is not longer legal.

Partially true. Functional open carry, that is, with a loaded firearm, has been illegal since 1968. Unloaded open carry was made illegal as of January 1, 2012 over most of the state, but there certainly are exceptions.
http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html

Unless CC is illegal and OC is legal I see no reason to OC. I do wish OC was legal in Texas for the reason that if my gun becomes exposed to view I’ll not be arrested for it.

Not to worry, you aren't likely to be arrested for an incidental exposure of your concealed gun.

mje
April 22, 2012, 11:02 AM
Open carry is not a deterrent. It is an invitation for a predator to take your gun. The whole point of concealed carry is to give you an edge that the prepaid or isn't aware of. When a cop carries a gun on his belt, the gun isn't the deterrent to a predator. It's the knowledge that he has the training to use it, and that there are several hundred or thousand brother officers standing behind that one cop.

dabigguns357
April 22, 2012, 11:54 AM
regaurdless of open carry or conceal carry,learn out to fight better.

Rule 1)don't let people get close to you
rule 2) don't let people grab your gun
rule 3) don't think after something bad has happen,think before.
rule 4)if you choose to open carry,learn how to fight while keeping control of your weapon.

barstoolguru
April 22, 2012, 02:43 PM
One incident leading to all these conclusions. You guys sound like a bunch of newspapermen.

there is more then one.... here is one more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY

and here is a tip if you do carry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ

SecurityMike
April 22, 2012, 04:23 PM
We use level 3 holsters where I work, but we were taught to carry a knife clipped to your left pocket and if someone is grabbing at your gun, you grab their wrist with your right hand, and start thrusting the knife into their face. It sounds really brutal but it's supposed to be a really good way to make someone immediately pull their hands up to their face. Obviously at that point, you quickly assess whether to shoot them or not and go from there. Obviously wouldn't work on the ground, but would have worked in the case of this story.

ClydeFrog
April 22, 2012, 08:38 PM
For armed citizens or anyone who works in a armed, uniformed position, you should learn to stand with your firearm protected or off-line from a person next to you. You don't have to be aggressive just use common sense.
Some people or young kids may see your holstered firearm & be curious.
Avoid allowing anyone staying close to the weapon or distracting you.
To learn a few weapon retention skills or to be able to fend off a firearm snatch is smart too. Some street people or criminals may appear "docile" or friendly but could be aggressive in a instant.
My state recently put new gun laws in place to avoid CC license holders(W) from any legal hassles if the concealed firearm is exposed.

ClydeFrog

DAS9mm
April 24, 2012, 06:22 PM
Open carry in the woods is one thing. Open carry in Ypsilanti is just dumb. Also, you can't legally buy a handgun in Michigan unless you are 21.

www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

if you can legally own / buy a handgun then you can legally take the class and apply for a CPL.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 25, 2012, 10:08 AM
Weapon retention is all well and good. However, what bothers me is that folks assume they will get into a wrestling match and can apply such skills with awareness.

If someone starts the theft with a thrown rock to your noggin or an OC spray by surprise - you are in trouble.

Such tactics would become popular if snatches became a fad.

oldmanFCSA
April 25, 2012, 10:22 AM
Yet the Law Enforcement community has outlawed the use of the Blackhawk Serpa positive retention holsters at their training facilities.

Go figure !!!


A good read:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923

pgdion
April 25, 2012, 10:50 AM
And this is why imho open carry is not smart.
Yep, I have to agree with this.

I think LockedBreech put it well. I want to be able to open carry, I should be able to open carry, But I don't want to open carry.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 25, 2012, 11:12 AM
The irony of shooting yourself when drawing from a Serpa during an open-carry snatch incident and then resultant thread boggles the mind of a moderator.

I know two guy who shot themselves with them. I've seen some very scary newbies trying to draw from those and one experienced LEO with a new one who had difficulty. The former had to be grabbed by the SO.

I heard from a little birdie that some of the major competition organizations are thinking about banning them as 20 or more local clubs have done this.

I agree that open carry should be legal but I would not in most situations. I have while hunting but that's it.

C0untZer0
April 25, 2012, 11:25 AM
If someone starts the theft with a thrown rock to your noggin ... you are in trouble.

It was a common tactic of flash mobs that the "signal" which triggers the coordinated attack is that one of the mob members is designated to hit the victim in the face with a thrown baseball or other object. Twelve inch softballs are not really that soft BTW...

If you just get jumped the assialants are going to get your phone / electronic device, and go for your wallet. If you are carrying concealed, they may come across your firearm, they may miss it. But if you're carrying it openly they definately won't miss it, and I think that if you are attacked while OC'ing - it's more likely to be explosively violent, brutal and decisive - as in a bludgeon to the head, because the assailants already know you're carrying, they've decided to attack you despite that, they know they have to at least knock you out if not kill you to keep you from deploying your weapon.

Tom Servo
April 25, 2012, 11:32 AM
Such tactics would become popular if snatches became a fad.
A few years ago, they broke up a group of inmates in Pelican Bay who were teaching other inmates how to disarm police officers. Who wants to place bets that civilian gun snatches will become a gang initiation ritual at some point?

Skadoosh
April 25, 2012, 11:54 AM
Just this weekend, I came up behind and stood right next to an elderly gentleman who was open carrying.

The fella was carrying a snubnose revolver on his belt at the 4 o'clock position in a scabbard belt holster. I am being liberal when I say the 4 oclock position. It was probably more like at the 5 o'clock position.

He was standing in line at the VERY busy paint counter of a big name home improvement store. He never noticed me standing there for a full five minutes (by my watch) all the while within arm's reach of his weapon. Both of his hands were full holding on to a case of fluorescent tubes and fiddling with his I-phone at the same time.

Observing at how preoccupied this man was and how exposed his revolver was to a simple snatching, I was concerned enough to ask him if his holster had any weapon retention features.

Obviously perturbed at being yanked away from his electronically-induced "condition white" state of awareness, he hesitated. Finally after much stammering, he admitted that his holster had no retention features.

I wished him good luck as he scurried out of the store...leaving his merchandise behind.

If you're going to OC responsibly, at least use the proper holster. Plan ahead, think about what you are doing and maintain the proper level of awareness.

Sparks1957
April 25, 2012, 12:47 PM
If you're going to OC responsibly, at least use the proper holster. Plan ahead, think about what you are doing and maintain the proper level of awareness

Thanks for sharing that story, Skadoosh. It's a bit unnerving to hear how oblivious he was to his surroundings, and how easily he could have been disarmed.

I've always felt that people should be able to open-carry if they wish, but they also need to realize that a great deal of personal responsibility comes along with that right.

It's not my choice, nor will it ever be.

johnwilliamson062
April 25, 2012, 11:25 PM
So the one other case was found. Two cases and that is it.

If we are going to come down on activities b/c of two cases then the shooting sports are in trouble.

Frank Ettin
April 26, 2012, 12:00 AM
...Two cases and that is it.

If we are going to come down on activities b/c of two cases...Two cases that we know about. How many don't we know about? How good/assessable/searchable is the data?

An exposed gun will be an obvious temptation to some integrity impaired citizens. And we know that such types go for guns openly carried by LEOs with some regularity.

It doesn't take much imagination to conclude that anyone who openly carries a gun in public ought to be aware of the risk and have the training and skill to deal with it if necessary.

Tom Servo
April 26, 2012, 12:04 AM
So the one other case was found. Two cases and that is it.
Actually, here are numbers three (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479738&highlight=open+carry) and four (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871&highlight=open+carry).

I know of two people, one of whom I've spoken with, in the Atlanta are who have had it happen to them in the last three years.

ClydeFrog
April 26, 2012, 02:04 AM
Before my state governor signed the new 2A-gun laws, a county sheriff testified to the elected officials that armed citizens should be required to have level II/III type holsters and mandated retention skill training.
This requirements were NOT added to the final law. I also question how or who would pay for the required training or who'd enforce the new laws.

As posted, open carry does require being more alert & ready to fend off a snatch. With holsters you must address points like speed(open type holsters) and security(retention, SERPA or SFS, etc). I used to think the open style holsters were best for both open and concealed use but as times changed, I can see the value of some designs like the Blackhawk SERPA & Safariland ALS or SFS. They are fast, secure and able to be modified quickly(FBI cant, crossdraw, standard).
Why some firearm ranges or LE training centers would ban the SERPA holsters is what I don't get. I bought a M&P SERPA holster last Dec and it works fine. Even upside down the M&P was fully secure. You can't ask for more than that, ;). I'd add that I wouldn't carry the SERPA holster in a rough or harsh climate(like SW Asia or the North Pole) but for regular wear or urban use, it's A-OK. ;)

ClydeFrog

rha600
April 26, 2012, 06:58 AM
hate to say it because I know how everyone feels about them, but a situation where someone is struggling for the gun shows how a magazine disconnect could be a good thing. Obviously as long as it's not a revolver your carrying.

Willie D
April 26, 2012, 08:00 AM
I just don't walk around with big money sticking out of my back pocket and at least here in Philly I see carrying a $500 gun (with an even higher street value) as an attractant rather than deterrent.


Say some kid decides to throw a brick at the back of my head: If he hits, free gun for him. If he misses, he gets to run away. It's not like I can legally engage or feasibly detain him after he turns tail.

pax
April 26, 2012, 09:31 AM
According to the FBI UCRs, around 10 percent of law enforcement officers who are feloniously killed on the job, are killed with their own weapons.

Not all people who open carry are law enforcement officers. But nearly all law enforcement officers open carry. And they


use retention holsters, and
have training in how to retain the gun.


Re the Serpa, why choose a stupidly bad design when there are so many other non-stupid ones out there? It's not like Serpa is the only possible retention design.

pax

ClydeFrog
April 26, 2012, 05:02 PM
I disagree with part of the last forum post.
The Blackhawk SERPA holster design is not stupid or flawed, IMO.
As I stated, it's sturdy, secure & the polymer material is easy to care for.
It can also be converted to fit different ways or modes quickly(a leather or synthetic holster may not).
I could see & have seen online video clips of how a Blackhawk SERPA could break or be closed shut with dirt or snow.
As I wrote, if you are not in a desert, rolling around or want a fast, safe concealment/carry holster for a metro area, the SERPA CQC is worth checking.
Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb.

Clyde

pax
April 26, 2012, 05:22 PM
Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb

Neither would I -- since those firms chose to go with a retention design that was not a Serpa.

pax

Frank Ettin
April 26, 2012, 06:30 PM
Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned....And to parallel what pax said, Glenn said this here (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4964108&postcount=95):...I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.

It does go against other literature....

dayman
April 26, 2012, 06:41 PM
I've never had any issues with my SERPA. Granted it's for a 1911, so I have the thumb safety too, but I honestly can't see how it would be any easier to have an AD with it than any other holster.
For me, when I grab the gun, and position my finger out along the line of the frame - where I'd put it if there was no holster - it hits the release. When I draw my finger is left - where it started - on the frame above the trigger guard.
Clearly, people have shot themselves using the holster, but I'd guess that has more to do with trying to draw quickly out of an unfamiliar holster than it does with some inherent design flaw.
As far as it getting ripped off easily, has anyone actually tried it or is that just another internet rumor? Maybe mine is different, but the holster attaches to the belt loops with 4 fairly beefy screws. Tightened properly, with a drop of locktite, I don't see them coming out very easily.

ClydeFrog
April 26, 2012, 07:40 PM
If "Pax" is speaking of the SERPA duty holster, I have seen a video clip of how it can be torn completely off a duty belt BUT...
If you watch the clip, it talks the grabber a considerable amount of force to tear the polymer holster off. A armed security or sworn LE could or should be able to deter or defend against the threat. The officer or armed citizen could also deploy a 2nd gun, OC spray or Taser/EDW too. If you aimlessly stand by & let a violent thug grab your firearm you have more problems then the brand you carry.

I'd add that the Safariland SFS or ALS may be a better pick if you feel the weather conditions or work environment(jail, prison, mental health center, court, etc) may lend itself to fights or outbursts/gun snatches.

Clyde
PS: I agree to that a gun owner or sworn LE officer can TRAIN to carry & use the SERPA safely. As the YouTube.com clip of "Tex" shows, it's not the SERPA holster but Tex's improper method that caused a mishap. Tex(the victim) clearly says that in the video. ;)

pax
April 26, 2012, 07:51 PM
dayman,

Two links for you.

1) How it breaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv1WLkKZSNE

2) How people shoot themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

(That second video is discussing Tex Grebner's well-publicized mishap, which we discussed here on TFL at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923)

pax

dayman
April 27, 2012, 06:12 AM
As far as the first video goes, it looks like maybe he's using the one built for a light without a light on the gun? Mine's screwed together, and fits a lot closer to the gun. It's also made out of a very stiff material, so I couldn't come close to twisting it apart like that. I do have the "sportster" model, so maybe that's the difference.

As far as the release goes - where they were using the same exact setup I have - I guess I've finally found an advantage to stubby fingers:cool:. My fingers are short enough that they hit the release as intended, so the curling is a non issue for me.

But, it does see that there are definite issues with the holster. I'd probably think about picking something else up if it was the rig that I used on a daily basis.

Frank Ettin
April 27, 2012, 10:07 AM
Remember the quote from Glenn in post 45 -- the reference to human factors. That's a real issue with the Sherpa. Why?

Human factor engineering is about designing things in a way that considers human capabilities and limitations to reduce the possibilities for operational errors, especially under stress, and to reduce training requirements. The Sherpa doesn't seem to do that well.

While it is possible to train to use the Sherpa properly and safely, its design makes it especially easy to make a particular, natural and predictable operational error that is dangerous to the user. If you are really good at using it correctly, that will be fine. But it is designed and operated in a way that makes it especially easy to make a particular mistake that can get you hurt.

pax
April 27, 2012, 11:24 AM
dayman,

About that first video: I can't remember if I read it in his comments or heard it on the video, but he commented that it was a hot day -- and that he couldn't do the same thing on a very cold day.

pax

johnwilliamson062
May 6, 2012, 08:33 PM
have training in how to retain the gun.
LEO in Ohio must just be way behind the curve. I trained with an OPOTA grad a few weeks ago for his requalify and he didn't know about jamming the strongside holster up into his hip so it was impossible to draw the gun. If they aren't teaching that in the academy i don't think they are teaching anything about retention.

ClydeFrog
May 7, 2012, 12:43 AM
A few years ago, I watched a update of a PBS Frontline doc about the police academy class of the Philadelphia PA police department(2001).
In a clip of the cadets from 2001, a young female couldn't re-holster her duty Glock pistol in a Safariland retention holster. :(
The PBS special noted how the Philadelphia PD had a 97% graduate rate compared to 75-80% for most state police training academies.

To train & prepare with the proper gear is important. Some understand that point more than others.

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2012, 01:13 AM
A good retention holster and a backup gun on the weakside.

I don't see this as completely necessary. I always carry a knife on my weak side. I have had retention training, and knife training as well.

I have had someone go for my gun once, and it was out on my farm. We had bought two horses from a guy and he had come over to check up on them. I admit, when I am out there I let my guard down at times, and I did on the day that he was there. He tried to grab my gun (later he said "just to look at it") and I responded and kept my gun. He did not know how to operate the SERPA so it was a help as well.

He was escorted off of our property, and has not been invited back.

IMightBeWrong
May 7, 2012, 04:22 AM
I personally don't believe in open carry as a deterrent. I don't think any criminal around is going to be deterred by knowing a weapon is present. If somebody is mentally screwed up enough to make a target of a person without knowing if they're armed or not, announcing to them that you are only gives them an upper hand.

But open carry shouldn't be used as a deterrent in the first place. It is a statement to the public that carrying a firearm isn't a crime. Too many people don't have the slightest clue what is legal when it comes to firearms and assume the only people carrying are cops and criminals. Open carry should be about peacefully expressing your stance on gun rights, not about deterring criminals.

I also don't like the types who open carry with a camera with them hoping they'll get stopped by an officer so they can video tape said officer and put the video online. You don't need to immortalize some poor officer on the internet to make a point and let him forever be seen as the villain. But I suppose that's an issue for another time.

Stevie-Ray
May 7, 2012, 05:20 PM
Really? Maybe he isn't 21 and can't CCSince he's an EMU student, I'd say that's a very good bet.

I CC most of the time and OC a portion of the time, especially at home and around the house. I've found it keeps a lot of crime from my neighborhood when several of us in the area are OC'ing. The neighborhood watch crime stats have proven it out time after time here. We are "the crazies" in my liaison officer's words, which he borrowed from street punks.:D

Doubtful I'll change my habits.

pax
May 7, 2012, 06:14 PM
I personally don't believe in open carry as a deterrent. I don't think any criminal around is going to be deterred by knowing a weapon is present.

Actually ...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4850401&postcount=31

pax

johnwilliamson062
May 7, 2012, 08:46 PM
I personally don't believe in open carry as a deterrent. I don't think any criminal around is going to be deterred by knowing a weapon is present. If somebody is mentally screwed up enough to make a target of a person without knowing if they're armed or not, announcing to them that you are only gives them an upper hand.
I hear Brinks is going to have their guards start CCWing for this reason... I mean really, are you going to stand behind that statement or are you going to rethink it?
Open carry has been an accepted deterrent since the carry item was a club.

In my previous post I said hip where it is actually more the ribs. IDK the anatomy, but you pull up on the bottom of the holster and angle it into your body.

ClydeFrog
May 8, 2012, 05:07 AM
Doing armed security details in uniform and working armed in a few EP(executive protection) posts, I can honestly say having a OC sidearm can deter some criminals.
In the mid 2000s, I worked as a security officer for a hotel property in a high crime, high incident rate area. I wore my Ruger GPNY .38spl on duty. Several times I saw a few vehicles repeatedly "case" the hotel property, see me, then drive off.
One important point I'd make about armed/uniform carry is to wear a duty uniform that clearly identifys you front & back. This can prevent mishaps or misunderstandings. Being clearly identified can help protect you. Using the reflective type badges & patches avoid problems in low light.
It's important to remember that some LE officers may not know you have a concealed license or can carry OC. I've talked to a few patrol officers in my area who had little or no knowledge of the regulations/policy of the state's Div of Licensing. For the record, the state where I live had in-service training for LE but cut the program to save $$$. :(

Clyde