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'88Scrat
April 19, 2012, 11:11 PM
You see this in old westren movies a lot. The hero fires and spin cocks a lever action in one hand while saving the girl with the other.

I was wondering what the best rifle for this might be. I was thinking along the lines of a Winchester 92 or 94 but its only speculation.

I ask because I worked in a bar for a while and got pretty good at doing tricks with liquor bottles, in class I always spun a pen around my fingers, and my "pocket" knife is a actually a Benchmade 51 balisong (a butterfly knife) that I can do some really cool tricks with. A rifle seems like the next logical step really.

For the record I have no intention of EVER doing this with a loaded rifle but simply knowing how to do it to satisfy my own curiosity has me interested enough to check into it.

Jim Watson
April 19, 2012, 11:33 PM
John Wayne and Chuck Connors did it with '92s.
There is just too much monkey motion in the '94 for it to work very well.
You will note that the Steve McQueen "Mare's Laig" knockoffs are built on '92 actions.

egor20
April 19, 2012, 11:53 PM
In El Dorado when Cole Thorton is partially paralyzed in his right arm and he uses a Winchester 1892 to twirl in the gun fight at the end of the movie against Nelse McLeod, Jason's hired gun.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/El_Dorado#Winchester_Model_1892

bamaranger
April 20, 2012, 12:49 AM
Chuck Conners carbine was shortened to something like 14 in bbl to facilitate his twirling.

Gosh I loved that show.

BigMikey76
April 20, 2012, 06:29 AM
My favorite example of this was in True Grit when John Wayne was charging down four bad guys with his '92 in his right hand and his revolver in his left holding the reins in his teeth. Classic scene. :)
As I recall, the lever on John Wayne's rifle had an expanded loop. I am not sure if that was to facilitate spin cocking, or if it was just because he preferred it, but I know the big loop was specifically mentioned at the beginning of El Dorado when the sherriff, J.P. Harrah, said that he had set his up the same way.

Mike Irwin
April 20, 2012, 06:36 AM
Story is that John Ford was looking for a gimmick for John Wayne's character during the filming of Stagecoach, and someone came up with the idea of modifying an 1892 to allow it to be spin cocked.

The modification was made, and the first time Wayne tried it the barrel came around, caught him square in the chin and knocked him out cold.

That's when the spin cockers became short-barreled carbines...

BlueTrain
April 20, 2012, 07:03 AM
I believe John Wayne's carbine is in the Warner Brothers museum. You might want to go see it if you're ever in L.A.

Willie Lowman
April 20, 2012, 07:17 AM
What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2?

I taught myself to do something similar with my 14" 590A1. A sort of a open the action, twirl shotgun, thrust gun forward to close action type maneuver. I first did it with a 20" barreled gun that required me to turn sideways so I wouldn't hit my face or shoulder with the barrel... The 14" SBS is much easier.

Kids, don't try this at home.

Mike Irwin
April 20, 2012, 09:01 AM
"What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2?"

Probably a Winchester Model 1901.

Could have been an earlier 1887, though.

WV_gunner
April 20, 2012, 10:22 AM
I got a magazine about the gun in terminator 2. All I remember was it was a Wichester 10 gauge.

kraigwy
April 20, 2012, 10:32 AM
I learned at a very early age, that you cannot spin and flip cock a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.

Dern near broke my fingers.

aarondhgraham
April 20, 2012, 11:02 AM
I think that was a universally learned lesson,,, :D
No matter how many of us twisted our fingers dang near off of our hands,,,
Every one of us young id-jits had to try it thinking that maybe we just needed to do it harder.

Aarond

aarondhgraham
April 20, 2012, 11:03 AM
Why couldn't it be done with 1876 Winchester rifles,,,
Every time I see it the 1892 is being used.

Aarond

.

DPris
April 20, 2012, 11:28 AM
The film versions involving leverguns have all been large-loop 92s.

The 92 may or may not feed in spincocking, without being altered. The 92s on the Rifleman were altered for feeding blanks reliably.

The more common story about Wayne's Stagecoach gun is that it was devised between Wayne & veteran stuntman Yakima Canutt.

It will work with a large loop 94, as an emergency-only experiment I've done it with a 16-inch .30-30. If one arm's injured, the gun CAN be run with the other.
A Rossi 16-inch .45 Colt 92 would not feed when tried about 14 years ago, dropped rounds on the carpet.

Connors used a 20-inch carbine, there were two Winchesters & one Spanish El Tigre copy used during the show's run. He was tall enough & had long enough arms to pull it off.
He was ambidextrous & could use the carbine with either hand.

Wayn'e original 92 had a short barrel, I've seen sources listing it as 15 inches in .32-20.

The 76 Winchester might be possible, but a much larger & clunkier gun to try it with, and you may run into feeding problems (c'mon, you KNOW it'd be tried with live ammo by somebody).

The toggle link actions are quite different from the later Winchesters, I don't know what kind of stresses would be involved in spincocking one.

The large loop lever is an absolute requirement for spincocking & to that degree of "largeness" there's no other benefit.

It does add room for gloved hands, but that result can be obtained with a far smaller enlarged lever.
Denis

Jim Watson
April 20, 2012, 12:11 PM
A '76 or even a '73 is a heavy gun with a long lever throw.
It would take a weightlifter to twirl a '76.

RedBowTies88
April 20, 2012, 12:38 PM
Wonder if you could do it with a marlin guide gun? :D

Strafer Gott
April 20, 2012, 01:44 PM
IIRC Old Iron Jaw played "The Rifleman". I stand by 20 inches.

Deja vu
April 20, 2012, 01:59 PM
I think about trying it with my 1895 (18 inch barrel) but every time I hold it I change my mind. :D

giaquir
April 20, 2012, 06:18 PM
I don't see how the round chambers
without falling out or jamming.
Just Hollywood stuff

TX Hunter
April 21, 2012, 09:05 AM
Im a John Wayne Fan, and have watched all his Westerns, and a couple of his War Movies. I think the Spin Cocking looks cool, but sounds like it has the potential for danger. Guns are not toys, and real life is not a movie. Everyone needs to remember that. Be Carefull Folks.:)

Jason_G
April 21, 2012, 09:13 AM
I learned at a very early age, that you cannot spin and flip cock a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.

Dern near broke my fingers.

ROFL!! :D

I didn't hurt myself, but I did try to do this when I was a kid as well. I wasn't successful either.

Jason

BigMikey76
April 21, 2012, 12:51 PM
I found a few videos of guys doing it with various rifles, but this one was my favorite because it has a slow motion replay so you can really see the technique. He is using a '94 with a regular loop. I don't see any cartrige being ejected, so I am fairly sure he is not actually cycling rounds, but it still looks pretty cool.

http://vimeo.com/20658310

Art Eatman
April 21, 2012, 08:55 PM
Hollywood had lots of money for repair parts and gunsmiths...

Gunplummer
April 21, 2012, 09:05 PM
If you watch the first "Rifleman" show, it is said that the lever closing fires the gun, not the trigger

DPris
April 21, 2012, 11:18 PM
Looks like he's spinning using one finger, never seen anybody do it that way. Strong finger.

On the Rifleman's 92, there was a set screw through the triggerguard that tripped the trigger when the lever closed. The lever didn't fire the gun, as such, it just pulled the trigger on closing.
That allowed Connors to get extreme speed without the danger of puncturing his trigger finger.

A 1961 magazine article on the gun stated Connors could actually run it that fast without the screw, but producers were concerned about a potential injury to his finger that could hold up filming, so the set screw was developed. Along with a plunger above the chamber to keep the blanks from dropping out during spinning.
Denis

Gunplummer
April 22, 2012, 10:21 AM
The lever fired the gun on closing and was designed that way. It was not a bad sear or worn trigger. I know what happens when you have thick gloves on and try to cycle a lever action fast. You get the same affect until you take the gloves off. Talk about trying to re-invent the wheel.

DPris
April 22, 2012, 11:38 AM
The lever itself didn't fire the gun on closing & it was modified with the addition of that set screw to trip the trigger. The lever was not "designed" to fire the gun on closing.

The screw was turned in to engage the trigger when a series of fast shots was required for a scene & backed out to avoid engaging the trigger when a scene required single shots as with a normal gun.
Denis

BitterTait
April 22, 2012, 01:22 PM
I know it's possible with practice to spin-cock the henry Mare's leg. Took me dozens of tries to get it right and there were bruises up and down my bicep from when I managed to thwack it with the front sight during a mis-spin.

Unfortunately (or fortunately for the safety of everyone in the area) it doesn't work when loaded. I tried (starting with birdshot, so at least the bleeding wouldn't be very arterial if I shot myself in the foot) it jammed every time.

Chuck Conners was able to do it with a full-sized rifle, however he was an ex-basket ball player, so he had the arms for it.

There were a couple of different shotguns used in the movie, some with the large loop, some without, for use in different scenes. Arnold almost broke his fingers when trying to spin-cock a standard lever model by mistake.

TX Hunter
April 22, 2012, 04:39 PM
John Wayne started the Hoop Lever thing, so this is apropriate.
I named my Youngest Son after the Character that John Wayne played in the movie The Searchers. Anyone know my Sons name ?

BigMikey76
April 22, 2012, 07:10 PM
I named my Youngest Son after the Character that John Wayne played in the movie The Searchers. Anyone know my Sons name ?

Well, the character was Ethan Edwards, so I will guess either Ethan or Edward.

TX Hunter
April 22, 2012, 08:04 PM
Good Guess my fellow John Wayne Fan, My Youngest Son is named Ethan.
And he is living up to that name, he is already well known for his bravery and his accuracy with his lever action Daisy BB Gun.:)

Gunplummer
April 22, 2012, 08:30 PM
On the show the lever was designed to fire upon closing. I was not on the set like you were, but did watch the first show. It was stated that the rifle functioned that way and a cowboy accidentally fired it by closing the lever on that show. I am sure that if the show had a Gunsmith in the town he would have used your explanation for the audience. Get a life.

Jim Watson
April 22, 2012, 10:39 PM
There was a Mattel lever action with a trip cam on the lever, too.
But I don't think they made a large loop lever for spinning.

JohnKSa
April 22, 2012, 10:47 PM
On the show the lever was designed to fire upon closing.I saw/read an interview with Connors in which he claimed to have modified the gun himself by adding a screw to the lever. It could be screwed in to fire the gun when the lever was closed or backed out so that the gun could be used as normal. The lever itself was normal--it wasn't a special design, and on the show, "The Rifleman" used the rifle as normal occasionally, indicating that it retained the capability to be used by pulling the trigger instead of by simply closing the lever.

DPris
April 22, 2012, 11:27 PM
Plummer,
You can easily do some Googling & find descriptions & photos of the gun & the set screw.

What you could find, if you bothered, would be facts about the gun, not whatever the writers may have included on film in the first show.

With a little effort you might even find a copy of the 1960 GUNS Magazine article written by Rodd Redwing, a Hollywood gun coach involved with the gun's development. I have one here.

The lever was built in two versions during the run of the series, first the rounded "D" shape & later a more squared shape.
The modifications to the levers included adding additional material to the "loops" to enlarge them, and the set screw, as mentioned.
Nothing to fire the gun internally on closing, the inclusion of the set screw accomplished that.

I have no idea what your reference to a bad sear or a worn trigger has to do with the subject.

Get a life?
If you're going to jump into a thread with erroneous info & insult people who know more about the subject than you do, you may expect to be corrected.
I'll get you started, in fact, to make it easier for you.

www.riflemansrifle.com

There's enough material on that site to give you a pretty good history of the Rifleman's Winchester & how it worked.

Denis

Gunplummer
April 23, 2012, 01:50 PM
Neither one of you know what you are talking about. I don't care who made what. The show stated that the rifle functioned as I described and was used in that manner. Nobody cares how the props were made to fudge the action shots. That would really make for a good show. "Hey, wait a minute while I adjust my setscrew so I can empty my gun on you". Do you really think everyone on this forum is so stupid that they need an explanation from you to watch a T.V. show? If you are sitting around, how about Batmans car? I was always curious about how they propped that out.


If the lever did not fire the rifle, why would they add something to it? There is usually a difference between T.V. and reality. In this case not. Get a life.

DPris
April 23, 2012, 02:16 PM
Plummer,
It was you who brought up the issue of how the gun fired & worked.
"Nobody cares how the props were made to fudge the action shots"?

There actually are far more people than "nobody" who are interested in that gun & how it really worked, as opposed to how the story claimed it worked, but apparently you & I are coming from different locations.
I have no idea where you are.

Even your TV version that it fired because the lever was modified to do so every time it closed was nonsense on the part of the writers, since it was also used repeatedly in normal single-shot mode during the run of the show.

"If the lever did not fire the rifle, why would they add something to it?"

You've totally lost me with whatever it is you're trying to say.
Denis

JohnKSa
April 23, 2012, 09:23 PM
Neither one of you know what you are talking about.http://www.riflemansrifle.com/the_riflemans_rifle.htm

Another feature of the rifle was a screw pin attached to the large loop lever which was positioned so as to trip the trigger when the ring was slammed home, thus allowing Lucas to rapid-fire the rifle, similarly to a semi-automatic pistol. ... Of course Chuck could also back the screw a few turns out of the trigger guard and the special rifle functioned normally.

http://www.riflemansrifle.com/picts/rifle-Flattened%20style%20loop.jpgThe show stated that the rifle functioned as I described and was used in that manner.I didn't watch every single episode, so I can't say for sure what they said about the rifle. I can certainly tell you that the rifle wasn't always used in the rapid fire mode, it was fired on occasion normally. That is, it was cocked normally and then the trigger was pulled to fire the gun. If it was ever stated on the show that the gun always fired when the lever closed, that was a fairly major screwup on their part.

Gunplummer
April 23, 2012, 10:17 PM
Anybody that can look at that picture and tell me the lever is not firing that rifle is in way over their head. Either way, watch the very first show. I have had enough ignorance. Later Dude.

JohnKSa
April 23, 2012, 10:37 PM
The screw fires the rifle. It's an important distinction because the screw can be backed out and the rifle can be fired normally.Neither one of you know what you are talking about.Both of us knew exactly what we were talking about, and the proof is that the picture shows exactly what we said was true.If the lever did not fire the rifle, why would they add something to it?The lever did not fire the rifle, the screw they added fired the rifle.The show stated that the rifle functioned as I described and was used in that manner.The rifle was also sometimes used as a normal rifle, which would be impossible if the lever, itself, operated the trigger.

MJN77
April 23, 2012, 10:38 PM
DPris and JohnKSa, you two DON'T know what you are talking about. All you have on your side are facts and logic! Plummer has .........watched T.V.??? Darn it, you two are just WRONG!!!!! Get a life!! :rolleyes:

Anybody that can look at that picture and tell me the lever is not firing that rifle is in way over their head.

The lever is not firing that rifle. The fairly large, obviously visible screw sticking through the trigger guard fires that rifle.
http://www.riflemansrifle.com/replicas/slide1.jpg
Not a difficult concept to grasp, really. The screw, as has been said, could be backed out so as NOT to fire that rifle when the lever was closed. That way, the rifle could be cycled and fired one shot at a time by manually pulling the trigger with your finger as a "normal" rifle could. When tightened down, the end of the screw tripped the trigger when the lever was closed. So, again the lever itself did not fire the gun. The screw did. Plot devices in a script from a fictional T.V. show do not effect the facts. Since you are the one getting argumentative and hostile about a prop rifle on a long dead fictional television show from fifty years ago, perhaps it is you that needs a life? Like you, I too have had enough ignorance for tonight "dude".

TriumphGuy
April 25, 2012, 02:00 PM
As a completely neutral third party, I'd like to step in and mention that the lever can't trip the trigger without the screw in place and the screw can't trip the trigger without moving the lever.

I think everyone is arguing about whether a potato grows in the dirt or underground.

BigMikey76
April 25, 2012, 05:22 PM
I think everyone is arguing about whether a potato grows in the dirt or underground.

Well put!!:D

While I have been enjoying the comments going back and forth as I have followed this arguement, it has been occurring to me that both sides are saying the same basic thing, just from different points of view - the lever and screw work together to get the job done, and neither would fire the gun without the other. In other words, both sides are right and wrong at the same time... funny how that happens some times.

shafter
April 25, 2012, 07:01 PM
I've never understood why someone would want to risk knocking their brains out spinning a rifle when it can be more easily fire with one hand by gripping the stock to your body with your arm and working the lever normally....

Strafer Gott
April 25, 2012, 07:48 PM
I pinched very much more than my finger in one of those Daisys. Almost made a Daisy outta me. There were more of those toy rigs for playing "The Rifleman", the show or somebody made a ton of money on MERCH! Hey it's a show. I know someone can spend the time to get it to muscle memory. After that accuracy drills. I think it will take one hugely talented actor to fill his shoes, and I'd pay to see that movie.

Jason_G
April 25, 2012, 10:10 PM
I've never understood why someone would want to risk knocking their brains out spinning a rifle when it can be more easily fire with one hand by gripping the stock to your body with your arm and working the lever normally....

Err..., yeah, but... what's cool about that?!! :D :p

Jason

Scribe
April 26, 2012, 01:00 AM
...it's having a poor grip on a powerful weapon, going through it's loading cycle and pointing at my chest while doing so that causes me concern.

Art Eatman
April 26, 2012, 09:40 AM
Er, y'all could go to the Revolver forum and talk about the "road agent's spin" with the old Colt thumb buster...

:D:D:D

rickyrick
April 26, 2012, 08:21 PM
I avoided this thread many times but the bb gun comments made it worth while. We've all tried it I think

gak
April 27, 2012, 02:16 PM
JohnSka and Denis--and those corroborating their views--are the ones with their heads on straight on this one. There are several episodes showing ol' Lucas specifically backing out (or screwing in) the screw noted, as the occasion called for, and at least one IIRC where he briefly explains the function "correctly." I don't recall if the Rifleman website links noted (and there are several others out there as well) specifically refers to, but there are one or two gentlemen out there who have "exactly" replicated the fully operational versions of the Lucas McCain 92--complete with screw, and at least one sells them--and the proprietors have mastered the technique...I'm sure with much practice. Chuck was said to have become proficient even with "live" rounds--off set of course. Being tall (and especially a combo of long legged and armed) certainly helps, as mentioned. I would agree that the practice should be done--if at all--with extreme caution (the whole idea's a non sequitir I admit)--whether with or without loaded ammo and with or without the screw device. An accident waiting to happen for most of us, either way.

My solution: get a large loop 92 (mostly Rossis, but pricier Italians (Chiappas) are available as well, all of which are without the screw--just for the John Wayne or Rifleman looks...either for use with gloved hands, and DON'T spin cock it! Just look at it, ooggle it, "handle" it, fondle it. Just don't spin cock it. (I'm assuming losing shells on the ground if you do, as someone mentioned--without the custom plunger--anyway). I admit I had one of my Rossis configured with the loop (actually had a large loop from a 16" "Trapper" 92 swapped to a regular 20" 92 as it seemed more fitting/to scale) for the visual effect...but again without adding the screw (are you kidding?). Functionally that super enlarged lever makes for a LESS effective levering action when operated as as "regular" gun--which again is what I'd recommend if you get one...and consider that less functional aspect just the cost of doing Hollywood business! But it does look cool on the mantle :)