what's the deal with carcano rifles?

[tahunua001]

hello all.
a couple days ago I was at fairchild air force base wrapping up my obligations to uncle sam when I decided that since I was only 20 miles from the nearest cabelas(which I never have had the chance to go to) I would go check it out. well cabelas was it's usual, seemingly overpriced plethora of junk I really "need" but stopping by their used gun racks I was surprised that they had an entire rack(about 2 dozen guns) devoted entirely to carcano rifles. I had never batted 2 eyelashes at them when I saw them at gunshows but I am quite curious as to the sudden availibility of them. the prices were nothing to call home about being about the same as the yugo mausers and norico SKS's sitting behind the new gun counter.

so why is everyone and their dogs suddenly selling their carcanos?

[Big Shrek]

Mostly because...they're pretty sad excuses of a rifle, dang near anything is better,
and it has a black mark of notoriety for being the rifle that killed John F. Kennedy...
For the same money & a FFL03 (C&R), you can get a wide variety of really NICE WW1/WW2/Korean-era rifles sent to your home...

Yes, I'm old...
Yes, I still hold a grudge...
Yes, I still hate Jane Fonda...and wouldn't mind if Kalifornia quaked off the map & took all the current movie stars with it ;)

[44 AMP]

Agreed they are a poor excuse for a rifle, even the Russians built better, overall. Also, there is no surplus ammo market for them (and never was much of one).

For a long time they were dirt cheap, and, other than French, the least desirable of the collectible milsurplus bolt guns. This was long before the fall of communism let the Russians sell their surplus in the US, at dirt cheap prices, which stimulated the whole collector market.

The most common caliber, the 6.5mm Carcano is by itself, not a bad round. BUT, its modest velocity, (2200fps) and the fact that it is only found in Carcano rifles kept it from being very popular in the US, and finding ammo was a real problem for many years. Today, nearly all the old rounds are being loaded by somebody, but niche rounds like the Carcano are expensive, for what you get.

The 7.35mm Italian is even more scarce and while you might be able to find some, good luck.

There were also some Carcanos (the bigger caliber ones, although it might have been a different Italian rifle, I no longer recall, and am too lazy to look it up :D) the Germans converted to 8mm Mauser. Most folks I know would be real hesitant about shooting one of them.

My old Lyman manual warns about the wide variations of groove diameter found in these rifles, with many being well over the proper .264" bore, and to beware of gas blow by if using .264 bullets in one of them. Always wear safety glasses and they recommend using cast bullets sized to the bore of the individual gun.

My guess about why there are so many Carcanos on the rack is that as our "Greatest Generation" passes, the guns they brought back as war prizes, and the guns they bought cheap during the 50s-60s are being sold by their decendants. Another thing about a rack full of Carcanos, that tells you that no one is buying them, much. And for good reason.

They are awkward, in rare calibers, not noted for accuracy, not easily converted to anything else, or sporterized. Also there is the whole "Oswald's gun" thing, which still makes a difference, to some people.

[tahunua001]

I kindof got the vibe that they were probably being sold with good reason. they are fairly small and a lot of them seemed like they had the stocks cut down at least a little so I guess you would call them semi-sporters. I'm not 100% but I think there may have been one of those 8mm conversions on the rack but again, can't remember.

I was kindof tinkering with the idea of converting one to 308 which if the bores were that badly done, would have to be bored out to a nominal diameter anyway, the only problem would be shooting a roughly 51mm case out of a 52mm chamber.

[Gunplummer]

Whole lot of rumor flying here. I am not a fan of Carcanos, but I still take "Lee Harvey" out for a doe now and then. My sister found it in a barn when she bought her farm and it looks pretty scarey. I put a scope on and did not bother to clean it up. Rough weather gun. Shoots as good @ 100 yards as most surplus guns I have shot, and a lot better than some. "Oswald stigma?" What about Mr. Schickilgruber's rifles?

[gyvel]

There is no deal with Carcanos.

Salvatore Carcano designed that gun using innovations from some of the best rifles of the day, ca. 1890. The rifle was officially adopted in 1891 and served well until 1945 as a military rifle, and for some decades after WWII as a police weapon in Italy.

Probably the rifles you saw in Cabela's were surplus rifles from Finland who used them with good effect against the Russians in the Winter and Continuation Wars. Did they have the letters "SA" inside a rectangular box with rounded corners?

It's also possible, since you say they looked to have "cut down" stocks, that they were 1891 "Moschetto" models that used a half stock and a folding spike bayonet ala SKS. These were used by Italian police well into the 1960s, at least.

Interestingly enough, it is stated that many privately held weapons used in the recent Libyan Civil War were Carcanos.

Granted, they aren't the smoothest operating rifle in the world, but they are made of good steels and were suitably adequate for the purpose intended.

[TX Hunter]

I alwayse thought they were a neat looking rifle, I looked at a nice one today, guy wanted $300 and it wasnt import marked.
Most of the Young People I know that shoot like the AR 15s and all that Jazz, Let um. It frees up the kind of guns I like.

[Scimmia]

My old Lyman manual warns about the wide variations of groove diameter found in these rifles, with many being well over the proper .264" bore, and to beware of gas blow by if using .264 bullets in one of them. Always wear safety glasses and they recommend using cast bullets sized to the bore of the individual gun.

I really think this misunderstanding (along with the JFK stigma) shows where so much of the Carcano hate comes from. They tend to shoot like crap with standard 6.5mm bullets (.264") because the standard groove diameter for them was .268"!

[gunsmokeTPF]

I was given a Carcano for nothing in the 1970's. It's stock looked like dried up driftwood. That was the most forgetable gun I ever owned. I gave it away within 24hrs from my locker, without ever bringing it home. The only place they belong, except of course the one that's in the Smithsonian, is in a crusher.

[SIGSHR]

There seems to be no "cachet" or mystique attached to Carcanos or Italian military firearms or militaria in general. I don't understand the "Lee Harvey Oswald Stigma", how many war surplus P-38s and 98ks were used against GI Joes, how do you know that 32 ACP bringback wasn't used by some SS type to execute partisans or innocent civilians?

[tahunua001]

I also do not understand weapon stigma. funny how with carcanos everyone seems to dislike them because oswald used one while everyone loves the FN fiveseven because the fort hood shooting prooved the lethality of the round.

I dont care if a rifle was shot by sergeant Alvin York, Vasiele Zaitsev, or Kim Jung Il, if it works and I can afford the ammo, I like it. if it was a load of horse manure that was molded and baked until crusty and costs 2 dollars every tim eI squeeze the trigger...not so much.

[Scimmia]

I don't understand the "Lee Harvey Oswald Stigma", how many war surplus P-38s and 98ks were used against GI Joes, how do you know that 32 ACP bringback wasn't used by some SS type to execute partisans or innocent civilians?

You're trying to attach logic to a purely emotional issue. The execution of a random innocent German civilian didn't exactly provoke the same emotional response as the assassination of a popular sitting US President. You have to remember the mantra of the gun grabbers, it was the guns fault!

[TX Hunter]

The Carcano is on my list of Guns to Own Sooner or later I will add one to my collection. I think its a neat looking little carbine, but thats just me.

[deadcoyote]

My local shop has a couple of these for $175 each. I've been thinking about grabbing one up. PRVI makes commercial reloadable ammo at $15 a box.

[James K]

A lot of the "stigma" of the Carcano comes from the same anti-gun gang that promoted the "Saturday Night Special" and "assault rifle" names in an effort to ban military surplus, inexpensive handguns and semi-automatics. They were, of course, aided and abetted by folks like gunsmokePTF ("the only place they belong is in a crusher") not realizing that if the gun grabbers can put Carcanos in a crusher, their own "good" guns will soon follow.

I have some personal experience in that area. A local author, who wrote on the JFK assassination (one of the many conspiracy nuts) asked a retired colonel, a military target shooter, about the Carcano. The colonel, who thought the only good gun was a National Match Springfield, told the writer that a Carcano couldn't shoot 100 yards and didn't have the accuracy or the power to hurt anyone. Naturally, the writer, anxious to find anything that would point the finger of blame away from his hero, Fidel Castro, lapped it up, and such nonsense has continued to dog any discussion of the Carcano ever since.

In fact, the Carcano is not junk, it was quite a decent rifle in 1891 (the U.S. was still using the trapdoor Springfield), pretty much in line with what other nations were adopting at the time. At that time, the 6.5 was considered state of the art, with light recoil and light ammo, but with sufficient power and accuracy for lethality at normal battle ranges. In fact, the same justifications given for the adoption of the 5.56mm by the U.S. some 70 years later. It was obsolete by WWII, but so were other rifles, including the much loved Swedish 6.5x55.

Jim

[Slamfire]

Wish I picked up a Carcano. The WW2 generation hated them, so they were cheap for a very long time.

Handled them, I guess I let other people's opinions sway me too much and I did not buy.

It would be interesting to compare to other 1890 designs.

Basically all bolt gun actions became obsolescent once the M1898 action was perfected. There were service rifle actions developed later, but the 98 action was still the best. At least in my opinion.

The other variations, including the Carcano, they worked well enough that they were kept in service.

[gunsmokeTPF]

James K, I'm sorry you took my quote about the Carcano litterally. Could we get back to reality for just one moment? Please don't put words into my mouth, because of your interpretation. It's only my opinion that that rifle is garbage. They weren't dependable and couldn't even be counted on to assist in a suicide. Remember now, I actually owned one for almost a full day.

That's not to say that the cartridge was bad, or good, cause I don't know. I've been around guns for over 50 years, but even back then I was practically forced to take it. That particular one was frightening and there was no way I'd ever put my cheek on that stock and fire it. I even had trouble giving it away. I hate cheap pen guns too, but guess they have their place, though I'd never own one.

I have no problem with people wanting to own one for whatever their reason may be. I don't believe in gun confiscation. The Philidelphia derringer was used to assassinate Lincoln and I like that gun a lot. I don't hate it with it's connection to JFK. I'm not completely convinced that that dog Oswald was able to do what's claimed he did with that weapon and I didn't mean to insult dogs.

I love italian guns. I have 2 beautiful italian shotguns and my 1st gun ever, which I still have since I was 8 is an 1875 Vetterli, that was brought back from France after the war. People should collect whatever they like. No one should get their panties in a bunch just because a particular gun is called crap and that's even if it's true. Only the one who designed it should be insulted, but won't be cause he's dead a long time. Also, I don't like being put into the category of acting in concert with the gun grabbers. Anyone who knows me personally would laugh at that. Your accusation towards me would be like me saying you wrote your post in a mental ward. That's also rediculous, cause I don't know you , or where you actually are. By the way Jim I'm gunsmokeTPF and not PTF.

[gyvel]

They weren't dependable and couldn't even be counted on to assist in a suicide.

And were did you pick up this little gem of information?

[giaquir]

I can remember reading F&S or outdoor life when I was a kid
and Carcanos were $7 shipped to your house.
Things change.

[Shotgun693]

My first gun was a Carcano, just like the JFK gun. My Father went with me to the Army Surplus Store because I was about 11 when I bought it. It was about $14. I killed my first deer with it. The sights stank, ammo had to be loaded into a clip, and you could only get ammo at that Surplus store. It was serviceable and like I said, I killed my first deer with it. It I could get another one for $14 I’d just keep it in my truck as my ‘better than a sharp stick’ gun. BTW, I remember it as being very loud and hard kicking.

[tahunua001]

well I don't know much bout the reliability of the gun but I will say that depictions of a stock made from drift wood pretty closely describes the quality of the stocks I was seeing at cabelas.

the action didn't look half bad but the magazine/trigger assemblies all looked like they were made of cheap tin with a number of the rifles sporting serious dents and dings that other battle rifles of the time were not prone to.

they are all short barreled carbine types which when pared to a round that would be comparable to a heavy grained 308 would have probably kicked like a mule and sported a muzzle flash that would have given away your position if you were shooting with the sun at your back.

these are just a few design characteristics that would lead me to believe that they aren't the greatest rifle ever invented at the time. just try comparing to a mosin nagant 1891 which is believed by many to be one of the worst guns you can get right now.

the mosin nagant fired a more potent round and was a heavier design, meaning it was easier to stabilize, had longer sight radius and absorbed recoil all of these features would have made the shooter more prone to higher accuracy and greater chance of a kill shot(not that the Russians were the best trained conscripts in the world) but in the hands of a well trained and experienced shooter the carcano when compared to other weapons of it's day was probably not the greatest.

[gunsmokeTPF]

Gyvel, I can't remember at this time where my information came from, cause it was many years ago and frankly that's one of the last guns I'd even think about. But in my case since I actually had it in my hands and had a little experience with a few guns I was able to determine it belonged in Sanford and Son's junkyard. That show was on TV at that time.

I and I just mean I wouldn't want anyone to know if I owned one. My taste in guns is far better than that, which is just my humble opinion. Does one have to be an Elmer Keith, or a Skeeter Skelton to give one's opinion on this forum? If your so knowledgeable regarding this rifle then fill us in with your pearls of wisdom. I'd be willing to listen, cause I don't take personally what others like, or don't like.

I will continue to criticize that gun, but never personally put down anyone else for wanting one, or having one.

[amd6547]

I consider a Carcano to be one of the best fighting bolt actions made.
Certainly a better fighting carbine than the Mosin.
I have owned just about all the great military bolt actions...Mauser, Mosin, Enfield, Springfield...
My Carcano cavalry carbine is short, and it's action is very slick. It has a 100yd battle sight setting. The enbloc clip someone complained about makes it very fast to load, and contribute to the quick feeding action.
The 6.5 Carcano cartridge offers excellent power and penetration at normal battle ranges. The steel used in the receiver was a special formulation which is high quality and strong, as is the design. The safety, which many describe as slow and awkward is actually positive and quick to disengage.
I too had my doubts about Oswald using the Carcano in November 1963... Until I shot my own Carcano. I now have no doubt at all that the weapon was capable of making the shot.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000671.jpg

[gyvel]

GunsmokeTPF, I question your unfounded statement as to Carcanos being not dependable, etc. Carcanos, as I stated earlier, utilized some of the best innovations available in 1890.

Carcanos were certainly dependable as they kicked some Austrian butt during WWI, and were used to good advantage in Ethiopia in 1935,

Maybe you don't like the odd design or the color of the wood, but Carcanos were made from very good steel, and exhibited no significant problems other than the undersized calibre as evidenced by field reports from the Italian Army.

Much like the Nagant, they are judged by hearsay and their appearance, most of which is simply not true.

I am no great fan of the Carcano, but unfounded negative comments based solely on subjectivity do little to solidify your position.

Its use by Oswald is certainly of no concern to me. He just happened to elect (or was told) to purchase one of the cheapest guns available on the market from Klein's Sporting Goods. While I don't condone assassination of a president, Kennedy was no favorite of mine anyway.

[gyvel]

well I don't know much bout the reliability of the gun but I will say that depictions of a stock made from drift wood pretty closely describes the quality of the stocks I was seeing at cabelas.

Tahunua, what you are seeing at Cabela's is well-used junk. These are the dregs of some some third world country's arsenal, put away and finally sold off after years of hard use and abuse. I would like to know the origin of those guns you looked at as they sound like the came out of some North African country where Italy had a large presence

I have collected military rifles for many years, and some (naturally) of these are Carcanos, but in near new condition. They are well made, well finished and very reliable guns, and fun to shoot, but definitely not my favorite.

Badmouthing of the Carcano is based mainly on hearsay or that someone "once read somewhere" that they are junk. They're not junk, they work well, and they are made from good materials.

Having said that, I will state that they are definitely not up to later standards, technologically speaking, but, much like the Russians with their Moisin Nagants, the Italians found that they worked, and adopted the old adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Too often, guns are clasified as "junk" simply because they are sold here as surplus long after their useful (and abused) life has ended.

[gunsmokeTPF]

I love many of the old surplus guns. I loved my grandpa's 1912 Austrian 9mm Steyr and that I wish I had today. I have a love affair with a Colt 1911 black army. I think a 1937 s/42 Luger is real nice and I regret ever selling my 1953 dated mint Springfield M1 Garand.

As far as the advantage of the carcano by the italians in 1935 at the battle at Wal-Wal Oasis is concerned, they didn't win and a couple hundred got killed. There were probably many spears chucked by the other side, which served them equally as well.

I don't think the italian experience in Ethiopia serves as a good example of the carcano's dependability. I'm not familiar with what went on during any battle between the italians and austrians during WW1, but maybe grandpa's gun was used back then. Other than having to use stripper clips it was a very high quality and dependable gun, though for many years the 9mm steyr cartridge was considered obsolete, but did make a comeback around the 1970's. The germans during WW2 felt they were good enough to be converted to 9mm luger. Sorry for digressing.

I'll conclude by saying that I'm no carcano expert and have absolutely no interest in ever owning one again. I don't feel it's my calling to convince people whether, or not they're great rifles, or garbage. I'm happy for anyone who gets enjoyment out of whatever gun they own.

[sc928porsche]

I cleaned up, refinished, and reblued one for a friend about a year ago. We bought a few boxes of privi and the rifle did well on the range. I got him a set of dies (lee) and the hand held press, along with some bullets and mag clips for his birthday. He picked up some powder and primers in short order and we went through the reloading process. This past deer season produced a buck and a doe for him. Not bad for a rifle that he found in the old house he had bought and was fixing up.

[SHR970]

A good read on the carcano rifles and their ammo. You might also want to check out the author.

Carcano (http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html)

[Gunplummer]

I read through it and it was interesting. I did not see anything about "Gain twist" rifling that the Italians were playing around with. Some rifles had it but I can not say if all did. As I said before, I own and use one, but am not a fan of them. It takes a little getting used to a side mount scope when you have a quick hunting shot. They definitely got a bad rap over the years and I blame a lot of that on the big gun companies in the U.S.

[SHR970]

Gunplummer, you missed it. Section on the rifle, paragraph 4.

And not all rifles did.

[BlueTrain]

There are many interesting surplus guns out there and they are getting older every day, just like all of us, and it shows.

My bit of Carcano lore is only this. I am from West Virginia and spend some time living in the "coal fields" of the southwestern part of the state. In a general store way back in the hills of the sort that had a post office in the back, I happened to notice a case of 7.35 ammunition. I have no idea whatever happened to it but I would have been surprised if anyone around there had a Carcano. I doubt I my father had even heard of one and his infantry combat experiences in WWII was in Italy.

Garands need clips to work too, don't they?

[tahunua001]

Garands need clips to work too, don't they?

yes they do, and luckly if I ever get one I have about 50 garand clips on hand that I got simply because they were loaded with tracers and black tip :D

[Gunplummer]

If you need a couple Carcano clips, "THE GUN PARTS" has them. They work for either caliber.

[BlueTrain]

Of course what I mean is that you need clips for them to work as repeating rifles.

[TX Hunter]

I dont care what anyone says negative about the Carcano, I will add one to my collection one day. It looks like a very well made firearm to me.

[44 AMP]

Understand a couple of things. First off, nobody equipped their armies with junk. Except for the "volksturm" guns and "last ditch" Arisakas (some of which actually are junk, as far as a good gun goes), all main issue military rifles were well made, to the extent of the origin nations arsenals.

What they aren't all equal in is design.

After WWII, and until the later 1960s was they heyday of cheap surplus rifles. And, in those days, we didn't look at them they way we do today. Instead of being desirable collectibles they were both common and cheap as dirt.

The main use of the surplus rifle was a cheap starter gun, for many, and what they could be made into by those so inclined.

Springfields, Mausers, Enfields, and even Arisakas (which are mostly mauser design), lent themselves into being made/remade as nice, even beautiful sporters. SMLE's are rugged durable, fine guns, but not as easily sporterized.

French, and Italian rifles were of less desirable "quality", not because they were junk (poorly made) but because they did not have the mauser type features, and were poor candidates for sporterizing.

Remember, this was decades before the former Soviet guns became available, creating a new market for surplus rifles, and the cheap prices made them widely available to new shooters, who typically don't have a lot of available cash.

People being what they are, there had to be some reason, beyond pure snobbery why Carcano's weren't desirable. The non-standard bore diameter, and the poor performance with "proper" 6.5mm size bullets was magnified, and became legend, kind of like the early AR problems still seem to show up in discussions today.

The whole "Oswald" thing is more an individual issue, I think. Though not everyone believes everything the Warren commission reported, even today.

[BlueTrain]

Well, actually some armies did equip themselves with junk and they knew it, only they couldn't get their hands on anything better. The junk guns kept circulating around until, it seems, they made it to this country.

I sometimes wonder when the best surplus years were. There was a new surplus market after WWI that in this country, even included Krags and Single Action Army revolvers. Catalogs listed surplus Mausers, Lebels, and Enfields before WWII. I don't know when surplus bolt actions started showing up after WWII, other than as war trophies. In the immediate post-war period, the bulk of surplus guns were being bought up by new countries like Israel, which ironically standardized on the German Mauser. Most contries continued to use the same bolt actions they had used since when the soldier's fathers had been in the army. The US was still making new M1 rifles and the British were still making new Lee-Enfields. Those 7.62 NATO SMLE rifles from India were made after I got out of the army in 1968. So I wonder if there were many surplus rifles for sale before the mid-1950s.

[tahunua001]

every time a country changes to a new design that is proven to be better than what they already have, they normally sell the surplus to a poor but up and coming country that can't afford the latest an greatest. many times it's not even junk, it's just outdated. many south american countries are using FN FALS, they aren't junk guns, many countries just switched to 5.56 rifles such as the SA80, AUG or the FAMAS, leaving a whole lot of 7.62 chambered rifles laying around, collecting dust.

one notable incidence was the Falklands incident, a single british submarine sunk about a dozen Falklandic(whatever the term is) ships in a matter of hours, where did they get these "pieces of junk" from? the good ole USA, they were using decommissioned ships that served during WWII that we sold in order to help out the postwar national budget (an act that thanks to good ole bill clinton, we are no longer legally able to perform). the falklands didn't knowingly provide their navy with junk ships, they bought the best they could afford.

[BlueTrain]

You mean Argentinian, of course. One ship sunk by the British, probably the first ship torpedoed since 1945, had been sunk at Pearl Harbor.

[SHR970]

ARA General Belgrano. Actually the second ship sunk by torpedo since WWII. A Brooklyn Class light cruiser; obsolescent but not obsolete.

This is a good analogy to the discussion. The up weaponed Belgrano posed a serious threat to the Royal Navy in that it had upgraded from WWII era anti aircraft defenses in the form of radar, and missiles. It's compliment of 15 6" guns in 5 turrets made it more than a match for any 2 of the frigates or destroyers that the Royal Navy had in the area and it had a top rated speed that was comparable to the oposition (not that it could necessarily make that speed) . If it got into range of the carrier, it posed a serious threat.

A 5 shot bolt action is not as capable of putting rounds into the area as a high cap. semi, but if it connects it drops a whole world of hurt into the equation. When you have 5 slowly you make them count; when you have 30 quickly you spray and pray. At least that is what tends to happen at the lower discipline levels.

[Buzzcook]

There are people who make money in part by denigrating the Carcano and Oswald's ability to shoot it.
There's also the same type of bigotry that made many people consider the Arisaka to be junk, because the nation/people that used them were considered inferior.

The Carcano I fired was reasonably accurate and easy to operate. That's pretty much the same thing I've said about comparable surplus bolt actions of the same vintage.