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View Full Version : Controlled Round Feed, thoughts...


WildBill45
April 13, 2012, 09:07 PM
While I am at it, another question.

I am old school, and for serious work in dangerous ventures I still only feel secure only with a controlled round mauser type action. This is so for dangerous places and dangerous game. I have stood on the ground with my two, and faced a lion on his four, and nothing but a CRF will do under such dire circumstances ... in that case all I had was a camera; I am still nervous!

Am I alone?

TABING
April 14, 2012, 01:04 AM
No, you're not alone. IMHO it's the only way to go. I prefer Mauser Mod 1910 actions.

Scorch
April 14, 2012, 01:31 AM
Any CRF is better IMO.
I prefer Mauser Mod 1910 actions.
And what exactly is a Mauser Model 1910? Do you mean a Mexican Model 1910 Mauser?

44 AMP
April 14, 2012, 04:10 AM
1909 Argentine, the best of the military actions....I've got a .458 Win Mag made with a 1909, now, if only those cloned mastodons over at the research station come my way when they break out.......
:D

giaquir
April 14, 2012, 04:32 AM
Hey Wildbill45.
Are you the guy who shot himself
in the leg,trying to fast draw?

PawPaw
April 14, 2012, 06:40 AM
I have stood on the ground with my two, and faced a lion on his four, and nothing but a CRF will do under such dire circumstances ... in that case all I had was a camera; I am still nervous!

You faced a lion, but all you had was a camera? Where was your rifle?

I like a good Mauser action as well as anyone, but there are tons of good push-feed rifles out there. The Remington Model 700 comes to mind. As does the Savage rifles. Great shooters, perfectly capable rifles. I remember guys bemoaning the fates when Winchester dropped the CRF for the push-feed Model 70. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It was an abomination, a heresy against modern sporting rifles. Heh! Nowadays, the Modern Sporting Rifle looks more like an AR-15 than anything else. And those are all push-feeds as I recall.

The Army's Model 24 and the Marines Model 40 are all push-feeds. Heck, even my Ruger 77 is a push-feed, regardless of the fact that it's got a Mauser claw. It works just like a push feed rifle. Great extraction, but the round isn't controlled out of the magazine. It's just got that big honking claw.

Yeah, the Mauser design is a good one. Probably the best ever made. But the world has moved on.

kraigwy
April 14, 2012, 09:02 AM
Control feed vs. Push feed?????????????

Anyone have a legit link where someone got into trouble because they were using a "push feed"???????????

I have a lot of Winchesters, indubitably my favorite rifle/action. I have both pre and post '64s and the new FN Model 70 (pre and FNs are control feed), and I never had any problems with either, push or control.

Of the Winchester Model 70s I made into target rifles, all are post '64 or Push Feeds, I never lost a point because of the extractor.

I have a Few Remington's, which are push feeds, Again, never a problem.

ARs are push feeds, and I've fire thousands of rounds through them in combat and some dern tought conditions, Never a problem.

When the army and marines went to bolt guns they both chose Remington's, again a push feed.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a "control feed", I saying push feeds work as well.

The only "KNOWN" and documented failures with extractors I am aware of is the extractors on the M1917 Endfields, there is several articles on the failure of it's extractor........the M1917 Enfields were control feeds. I've never had a problem with my 1917, but I didn't use it extensively on the trenches of WWI either.

I will admit the best, smoothest, off the shelf, out of the box, new unmodified rifle I ever bought is the FN Model 70 which like I said, a control round.

I like both and wouldn't hesitate to use either in combat or dangerous game. If I was going after dangerous game I'd take my Post '64 Model 70, not because of its extractor but because I'd fired hundreds of rounds though it and am comfortable with my ability to shoot it.

WildBill45
April 14, 2012, 09:12 AM
Anyone have a legit link where someone got into trouble because they were using a "push feed"???????????

Yes ... ME! I had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag. IF< I was charged by a bear and it did it again, getting dead would spoil the fun!

This is why I like CRF, experience, not some opine from a Forum!:) Folks who have never been in real world life & death situations either wildlife or man, and I am not saying this to you specifically, do not understand the deep rooted desire for dependability over all other factors; caliber, cost, brand name, etc...

jmr40
April 14, 2012, 10:10 AM
CRF is very much understood. It is a better system, but it has little to do with dangerous game or feeding upside down or from any other position. Under normal circumstances a PF will feed just as reliably as CRF, and do it upside down just as well.

A CRF rifle will work under dirty harsh conditions and with dirty out of spec ammo much better than will a PF. They DO NOT feed ammo into the chamber any better than a PF. They do extract and eject much more reliably, especially when dirty. The TINY extractor on PF rifles may rip the rim off a stuck cartridge, or break the extractor all together while the much larger CRF extractor will grip roughly 50% of the cartridge rim, and grip it from both sides pulling sticky cases out.

The tiny spring loaded ejector on PF rifles can very easily become useless from a tiny spec of dirt or rust leaving you with a rifle that leaves empty cases on top of the magazine instead of ejecting them.

If you hunt like the majority of todays hunters were you take a clean rifle out of a safe, hunt from a tree stand in perfect weather for only a few hours at a time and return to your home where you can once again clean your rifle before the next hunt you will never notice the difference.

I have and use both types. I prefer CRF since there are no downsides to using it and when on backpack hunts or in harsh conditions the CRF rifles are the only ones I consider.

If you keep your rifle clean, use quality in spec ammo and keep it clean, one is just as reliable as the other. If I were on a wilderness hunt where a thorough cleaning may be impossible for days or weeks. Or hunting in bad weather, sandy dirty or muddy conditions etc. I'd much prefer CRF.

That is exactly the type of conditions the old time African Safari hunters hunted in. A hunt could last 4-6 weeks and they needed a tough rifle that could take abuse and still hunt.

Old Time Hunter
April 14, 2012, 10:21 AM
Under normal circumstances a PF will feed just as reliably as CRF, and do it upside down just as well.


With this I will contend, with push feed there isn't any accomodation to counter gravity. Laying upside down in a shell crater might pose a problem for a soldier using a push feed, being charged by a dangerous animal while trying to cycle a push feed also opens one up to the possiblity of a jam moreso with a PF, than a CRF.

Sitting in your tree stand or shooting paper off the bench, there is not an issue either way.

Savage99
April 14, 2012, 10:35 AM
I prefer CRF rifles for their mechanical operation. It's a pleasure to watch the machinery work including a three position safety that controls the firing pin.

Sure some where given push feed rifles to use in war but they had to take them.

A while ago I found a farm that had a perfect spot to watch for deer on opening day. Before dawn I was there ready with my M70 CRF 7mm WSM, Zeiss etc.

As I walked up to the spot I saw another hunter already there in MY spot. I walked away to take second best.

Just before light he came walking past me. I asked where he was going and he said:

"My Rem. 760 is jammed."

:D

http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/administration/img_upload/gammes-000009.jpg

old roper
April 14, 2012, 10:55 AM
Savage99, Isn't a Rem 760 pump rifle?

http://www.remington.com/products/archived/centerfire/pump-action/model-760-gamemaster.aspx

dvdcrr
April 14, 2012, 10:59 AM
well the small arms of today are capable of cycling 10 rounds a second and they are push feed. Seems like it works ok to me.

TABING
April 14, 2012, 11:14 AM
My mistake, I meant the 1908 Mauser. For more info, check this link.

In the 1980s I was fortunate to pick up four of these. Two are standard models with 29.25 inch barrels, one is a carbine with a 20 inch barrel, (my favorite walking around rifle), and one is an Israeli armory refinished with a new 22 inch FN barrel in .308 Win.

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=265-Brazilian-Model-1908-Mauser-Rifle-(Mfg-by-DWM)

"The 1908 Brazillian Mauser is, alongside the 1909 Argentine Mauser, considered to represent the very finest of pre-WW1 German arms manufacturing. The rifles were finished to the highest grade and designed to last for Generations in the service of Brazil – something they did very well. In one form or another, these rifles stayed in service well into the 1950’s, though a considerable number reached the surplus market in unissued condition – presumably having been stored as war reserve material."

WildBill45: I suspect we are both older, and "old school".

jmr40: spot on!

taylorce1
April 14, 2012, 11:37 AM
Isn't the Lee Enfield .303 a push feed? I haven't held one in years but I don't remember a big extractor on them. Most consider them the best battlefield bolt action rifle of all time. I'm sure quite a bit of dangerous game has been killed with that rifle both in India and Africa.

I kind of agree with kraigwy on this one reliable rifles come in all manner of action types. I think that a double rifle would be the best option for a quick follow up shot in a dangerous game hunting situation. Plus when asked what would be a good bear defense firearm, there seems to be quite a few on this forum who think a 12ga and slugs is the only way to go.

A lot of what is used has nothing to do with it being a crf or not but by the countries that colonized it. Your major players in Africa was the Germans, Dutch, English, and French. I'm sure the predominant rifle for that region would be the home countries primary service rifle. This would have given the hunter ammunition availability especially in an era where ammunition wasn't of the quality we have today.

RT
April 14, 2012, 12:21 PM
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/05/bolt-actions-broken-down-difference-between-controlled-feed-and-push-feed
"Bolt Actions Broken Down: The Difference Between Controlled-Feed and Push-Feed

by David E. Petzal

A blogger of my acquaintance asked me to explain the difference between controlled-feed bolt-actions and push-feed bolt actions, and the importance thereof to shooters.

Controlled feed refers to the system developed by Peter Paul Mauser for his Model 98 bolt-action. When the bolt is cycled, a cartridge rises up from the magazine and the extractor—that long, flat piece of metal that rides alongside the bolt—snaps onto the rim of the cartridge and holds it in a death grip on its trip into the chamber. When the round is fired, it pulls the case clear until it is kicked out of action by the ejector, a small, unattractive piece of steel that is fixed in place behind the follower and rides through a slot in the bolt face. So, controlled feed: Each round is held in place throughout the firing cycle.

Push feed was introduced by Remington in 1949 in the Model 721 (which eventually became the Model 700). Here, as a cartridge rose up out of the magazine, the bolt simply pushed it forward into the chamber without holding on to it. As the case chambers, a small unattractive clip snaps onto the rim, and pulls the case out when the round is fired. The shell is kicked clear by a spring-loaded plunger in the bolt face.

The advantages to push feed are that it’s cheaper to manufacture than controlled feed, and that the bolt face can be made to completely enclose the case head, so that if the case ruptures, you won’t be blown up as badly.

Controlled-feed fanatics snort and fart and claim that push-feed is unreliable; that without firm guidance, rounds will not find their way into the chamber consistently. The truth is that push-feed is just fine if the magazine rails fit the case correctly. Trouble comes when manufacturers try to make guns on the cheap and the rails fit poorly.

They further claim that the big extractors on controlled-feed bolts pull stuck cases better than the small extractors on push-feed bolts. Again, not so. A full-length extractor can slip off a case rim given enough force, and a push-feed extractor can either shear through the case rim or break.

In a properly-made rifle, either system works fine, and there are better things to worry about."

dgludwig
April 14, 2012, 04:51 PM
Three of my bolt-action rifles are push-feeds (a Browning A-Bolt and two Ruger Model 77s) and three are controlled-feeds (a Savage Model 116 SE and two Ruger MK II model 77s) and I have never been able to discern any differences between the rifles in terms of feeding or extracting (of course, I have never used any of them in combat situations nor have I subjected any of them to "torture testing"). That said, everything else being equal, I guess I'd opt for a controlled feed rifle for the reason jmr40 expressed: "...There are no downsides to using it...".

WildBill45
April 14, 2012, 06:45 PM
If you practice speed working your bolt gun to get good with it ... and I contend 99% of rifle owners never train like this ... you will see the difference if you use real ammo, blank or not. If you do not train with your bolt, you will fail under stress to do it right, fast enough, and keep it working if ever in such a scenario. If all your hunting is from a warm house--east coasters call these 'Camps" haha--and sit hunt, then an air rifle would do well on deer, but for surprise social encounters with bears, lions, and angry men you best be the best using that rifle under speed under stress or get dead real quick!

Train, train, and then train some more!!!

TX Hunter
April 14, 2012, 06:59 PM
I agree, but to a point, One of my Controlled feed rifles is a Jam O Matic, but the reason is because it was changed from 7x57 Mauser to .308 and where the cartridge is picked up out of the magazine is too far back for the shorter .308 cartridge and the cartridge sticks up, and impacts on the rear of the barrel above the bore.

But if you have a properly tuned controlled feed rifle chambered in the cartridge it was designed for its almost unstopable.

roklok
April 14, 2012, 08:46 PM
I think the whole CRF argument is just utter nonsense. I have both CRF rifles (Mauser and Win 70) and push feed Remington 700s. They both work. Both types of rifles can have feeding issues, both types can be flawless. If a given rifle is reliable, thats all that matters, be it push feed or CRF. If a rifles bolt is not operated properly, issues can arise with either type.

I have put literally thousands of rounds through various Remington 700s with never a problem. My go to big game rifle is a 700 in .35 Whelen, I have taken grizzly with it (solo hunts with no backup) and would not hesitate to do it again.

Harry Selby, one of the most renowned PHs used a Remington 721 on lots of dangerous game :

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/harry-selby-remington-721-rifle/

So, my thoughts ? Pick a reliable rifle and learn to use it.

Savage99
April 14, 2012, 09:21 PM
A push feed bolt action rifle is more apt to jam from a double feed.

A double feed is where a round is pushed part ways into the chamber and then another round is started along side it making a jam.

A Mauser type extractor will grip the rim and pull the first round out.

Besides, those push feed bolt faces don't look like good machinery.

Hansam
April 14, 2012, 09:56 PM
Thousands upon thousands of rounds through push feed semi auto rifles without failure due to the feeding system have said to me that there really isn't a problem with push feed.

Every FTE and/or FTF I've had with my rifles (all push feed) have had to do with malfunctioning magazines (ie mag lips) and/or squib loads. Sure you could argue this and argue that but if you put a detachable mag on a push feed mechanism and made it semi-auto you'd still end up with a similar ratio of issues... and for that matter more than likely the SAME issues.

When it comes to bolt action rifles I've ONLY ever had push feeds and have never had a problem with the rifle failing to feed or eject - and I abuse my firearms. My bolt actions are kept clean but they are used and exposed to all types of conditions, snow, rain, hot, cold, muddy, wet, dry and once, sandy. They've all worked just fine for me.

My ARs are even more abused - I only clean them once every couple thousand rounds. They are fired (a lot) in rain, mud, snow, hot and cold... arid and humid. Again no feed issues arising purely because of the feeding system... and I've got tens of thousands of rounds through these rifles altogether thus far.

WildBill45
April 14, 2012, 11:25 PM
I think the whole CRF argument is just utter nonsense.

Think as you wish, but the facts differ ... celebrity choices notwithstanding.

Winchester, CZ, and many other rifle makers bask in the sun of CRF! The new Winchester could have went either way; CRF was the choice, and the favorite of millions of riflemen in the USA for a long, long, time. It is a superior design for folks who may actually need a rifle to defend life & limb. Push feed is wonderful for animals that don't bite back.

To argue otherwise is just utter nonsense...

Selby's legacy is his legendary use of his 416 Rigby on dangerous game. Call Rigby and order a push feed ... let me know how that goes...

When I use to check my bear baits in Colorado, I had a push feed .338 Winchester, my Remington Custom Shop KS 350 mag, and my Winchester 7mm STW, and my Weatherby 300 Mag ... all lovely rifles that took more game than I can list, but, and there always is a but in life, I took my O3A3 Springfield ought-six because I trusted the CRF action when possible close work with bears was the job at hand!

I also shot thousands and thousands of rounds through my push feed Remington 10x in .220 Swift, which was great on prairie dogs, but, and there always is a but in life, if it were rabid coyotes that I was chasing I would have taken my O3A3 with accelerators instead ... for the same reason!

Danger: CRF over Push Feed any day of the week.

Push Feed was born to cut the costs for the rifle makers ... Period!

WildBill45
April 14, 2012, 11:44 PM
I agree, but to a point, One of my Controlled feed rifles is a Jam O Matic, but the reason is because it was changed from 7x57 Mauser to .308 and where the cartridge is picked up out of the magazine is too far back for the shorter .308 cartridge and the cartridge sticks up, and impacts on the rear of the barrel above the bore.

I do not understand at what point you agree to. You state that the rifle was changed from a working rifle to one with problems after changing the design parameters of the working rifle to a design that does not work. How does this give you any pause to doubt CRF when it was the rifle owner who is the direct cause of the failures of the rifle?

I think the 7x57 version of this rifle was probably a great rifle, and a similar rifle was used by Karamojo Bell to take many hundreds of elephants ... speaking of celebrity use of rifles, who made Harry Selby look like a tyro ... Bell, another big fan of CRF rifles!:eek:

Gunplummer
April 15, 2012, 12:21 AM
The only problem I have encountered is a CFR will pick up anything, hold it against the bolt and fire it. Wrong round or not it will fire it.

TX Hunter
April 15, 2012, 12:23 AM
Sorry my point flew over your head, Im in the Fan of Controlled feed camp.
But I went a little deeper to bring to light that if a rifle has been modified in correctly, such as sporterizing and changing the cartridge in which it was designed for it may not perform as reliably as originaly intended.
The point went deeper than some may catch on, because sporterizing surplus controlled feed actions is popular, so I didnt want someone to run across a similar situation and base their judgment on the reliability of that perticular rifle, if you would have read further in my post you would have noticed my closing statement, and I quote myself.




"But if you have a properly tuned controlled feed rifle chambered in the cartridge it was designed for its almost unstopable".

JohnKSa
April 15, 2012, 12:38 AM
I have stood on the ground with my two, and faced a lion on his four, and nothing but a CRF will do under such dire circumstances ... in that case all I had was a camera.I'm thinking that if you made it through with only a camera, chances are better than extremely good that you would have also survived even if all you had been carrying was a push-feed action. ;)I had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.What sort of problems?

20thru45
April 15, 2012, 01:28 AM
I've got both PF and CRF and mine all have the bolt on the correct side, the left side. I own a rare stainless LH Win 70 CRF in .338. For reliability I even screwed the floor plate shut on that rifle. No bumping the floor plate button and dumping the rounds for me. Other features of that design like the field strippable bolt are also helpful for reliability in the field.

I do use my rifles for extended forays in to the wild and and bought a Montana 1999 for my go to lower 48 backpack hunting rifle. It is a Win 70 CRF knockoff with some changes in .308.

I do have a very reliable 06 model Rem 700 and would trust that rifle almost as much as the other two. I did face down a lion (mountain) with that rifle but I had one in the chamber and wouldn't have had any time for a follow up if the lion leapt for me. It did not, and we parted company on good terms. No I didn't shoot it. I didn't have a tag and didn't want to kill it.

BusGunner007
April 15, 2012, 01:33 AM
I like my 700's. :D

roklok
April 15, 2012, 02:51 AM
Quote

"Winchester, CZ, and many other rifle makers bask in the sun of CRF! The new Winchester could have went either way; CRF was the choice, and the favorite of millions of riflemen in the USA for a long, long, time. It is a superior design for folks who may actually need a rifle to defend life & limb. Push feed is wonderful for animals that don't bite back.

To argue otherwise is just utter nonsense..."


My Winchester Model 70 Classic with claw extractor in 30-06 is only CRF half the time, when it is feeding from the right side of magazine. When it is feeding from the left, it is a push feed until the last bit before round is fully chambered. The rim of the cartridge does not slide under the extractor as it is released from the left side of the magazine. Many other so called CRF actions are the same. My Mauser in .375 H&H exhibits the same behavior, although with the larger diameter case it does slide under the claw earlier in the cycle.

Proponents of the CRF discuss preventing double feeds as an advantage. That is a very unlikely malfunction, as it requires fully opening bolt, closing it almost halfway (in order to release round from magazine), then opening bolt fully again to try to feed a second round. This is not something that is likely to be done in the "heat of battle" so to speak. Short stroking the bolt and failure to close completely are much more common mistakes made in tense situations. CRF and push feed act the same way in these situations. Short stroking fails to feed a live round and failure to completely close handle usually will cause a misfire, as the strikers energy is used closing bolt instead of igniting primer.

If CRF makes you feel better, go for it ! There is a lot to be said for confidence, whether that confidence comes from emotions instead of facts, but in the real world if a rifle is reliable, it matters not. Both push feeds and CRFs can be equally reliable.

old roper
April 15, 2012, 08:01 AM
Since all my hunting is in the lower 48 if I was going to hunt Africa for dangerous game or Alaska/Canada for bears or other places I'd have to buy a rifle.

I own both Win CF and Rem push feed never had a problem with either type.

WildBill45
April 15, 2012, 08:46 AM
Since all my hunting is in the lower 48 if I was going to hunt Africa for dangerous game or Alaska/Canada for bears or other places I'd have to buy a rifle.

Depends on what you are doing. If you hunted plains game it is not a problem, you have a guide backup with you most of the time anyway. Dangerous game you have a backup as well, but, and there always is a butt in life, you may not want to put your life in the hands of another ... prepare yourself, and choose a rifle you would use if alone. If the pro gets killed, and I personally knew one who did, YOU ARE ALONE!

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 09:29 AM
This is an interesting thread without all the "mines better than your becauses". I study firearms design. I routuinely completely disassemble a gun and examine every screw and part. Been doing this for 50 years. One statement made here I have to differ with. A controlled round feed firearm DOES and in a dramitic faction help a cartridge enter a chamber better than a push feed. I take many a gun and shoot it and cycle it at different angles. This is a real eye opener. One popular brand of lever guns will not cycle when laid on its port side. However their are many firearms designs that are controlled round feed that arent bolt guns. The Winchester 1890-1906-62--61, 22 pump action rifles are all controled round feed. The Colt Woodsman 22 handguns are controlled round feed. Many Smith & Wesson self loaders are control round feed. The are many other handguns and rifles that are control round feeds. And while I am a huge Winchester fan, the Savage 99, probably the best lever gun ever designed, is a controlled round feed gun while the Winchesters lever guns arent. As someone earlier stated, it is a marvel to watch a good designed control round action cycle.

taylorce1
April 15, 2012, 10:19 AM
Really is a lot of conjecture going on around here, and while I agree CRF is nice. I still don't think it is going to save your butt in a dangerous situation if you can't keep your wits about you. I'd really like to hear from guides/PH's that hunt DG for a living with clients about their preference of rifles their clients carry. I visit an African and Alaskan hunting forums on regular basis and this same discussion goes on everywhere. Really all it boils down to is preference, as to what you use.

There are some guys that will only hunt with double rifles, for the quick follow up. Then there are the guys who hunt with everything else. Plus there are hunters who borrow rifles and are give M700's from their guide/PH to do a DG hunt with. I doubt your going to complain much when an accurate rifle is put in your hands to hunt with after you paid several thousand dollars to hunt, and traveled several thousand miles.

From what I gather from the guides and PH who post on there as well the could care less what rifle you use as long as you shoot it well. If you don't shoot it well then the guide is going to have to work harder to put you on an animal at close range so that the risk of chasing a wounded animal is less. Plus those same guides and PH's have their own idea as to what kind of rifle they like to carry for backing up their clients.

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 10:49 AM
TAYLORCE1, is correct in his assesment of some professional guides. I was a guide for years but for deer,elk and antelope. It does not matter what proffesion a person is in, as long as he is getting paid that makes his a proffesional, I quess. I have interviewer many proffesional guide and hunter alike and all have different experences and preferences. As a guide it didnt matter what my clients brought as a gun, nobody was likely to get hurt from a failure. However every year I witnessed gun malfuntions that cost the client an animal, and required us guides to go back and find them another animal to shoot. My greatest regret as a hunter and guide and range officer is my lack of a well documented record of all kills, bullets used, shots taken, gun malfuntions, operator error, ect. As a range officer I see many many gun malfuntions at the range, most are just glitches that were easy to remidy but would have let an animal escape if these were field conditions. So many of these range malfunctions were handload malfunctions. I did document gun malfunctions, starting last year, recorded them on my comp, and then proceeded to send them to data heaven, to never be recovered. I will again this year record all glitches and will post a detailed report at the end of the season. So many proffesional guides I met were just very young "kids" ,like myself in my guiding, that were cronically short of money, and the gun and equipment they used was whatever they could find cheap. From knives to bullets. I have always believed in any proffesion, 90% of the people are there to get a paycheck, only 10% are true proffesionals and of that 10%, 5% "wrote the book". Just my observation. Again my research of guides is for non dangerous game.

old roper
April 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
WildBill45, I understand the difference between a Plain Hunt vs Dangerous hunt that may require a back-up but hopefully the rifle I select and shot I take would be enough.

jimbob86
April 15, 2012, 11:26 AM
CRF has advantages and disadvantages ......

I have guns using both systems.

I like CRF. Next bolt gun will have it.

dgludwig
April 15, 2012, 01:57 PM
CRF has advantages and disadvantages ......

Just curious. What do you think the disadvantages are?

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 02:40 PM
dgludwig, asked the question before I could. I am curious what disadvantage a control round feed action has. Not trying to start an arguement but am curious what issues were encountered with this type of feed system.

taylorce1
April 15, 2012, 03:00 PM
The only one I can think of is that not all extractors on CRF rifles will snap over the rim on a sigle loaded round.

WildBill45
April 15, 2012, 04:13 PM
I select and shot I take would be enough.

Probably so. The cheapest rifles can do the job most of the time, and the most expensive customs can fail. Almost any rifle can out shoot the shooter under field conditions; so it falls under luck, and design.

We have no control over luck, so if we do the best with design we keep the odds more in our favor!

jimbob86
April 15, 2012, 04:30 PM
Just curious. What do you think the disadvantages are?
__________________


As taylor noted, some CRF extractors won't snap over a chambered round- thus that gun MUST feed from the magazine. Because of this, you get one less round in the gun ...... you can't load the magazine and push the rounds down, advance the both enough to hold them down, drop one in the pipe, close the bolt .......

CRF extractors that will snap over a chambered round may well snap over the rim going the other way (going rearward), as well- so much for 100%reliability....

They cost more to make, being more complicated ..... and are impossible to completely disassemble with out a gunsmith ......

There are probably other reasons...... anybody else think of them?

Uncle Sugar picked the Remington 700/40X over the Model 70 ..... I'm sure he had his reasons, as well ......

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 06:09 PM
I have to RESPECTFULLY disagree with JIMBO on the extractor that will jump the rim of an extracting case. In 50 years of working with guns I have never heard of this. That doent mean it hasnt happened but I have never heard of it or experenced it. I have worked on guns so locked up that a mallet was required to open the bolt and then had to drive the bolt rearward to extract the heavily overloaded case. Never had the extractor fail on long non rotating extractors. As for Uncle Sam choosing the 700, all I can say is to read an article written by LAND, the father of modern sniping, written for American Rifleman a few years ago. It explains the government requirements, expectations, and experences. It was a real eye opener. It has been too long to remember the details but well worth the read.

old roper
April 15, 2012, 06:28 PM
Here is something about a famous Marine

In 1967 Hathcock set the record for the longest combat kill. He used a M2 Browning machine gun mounting a telescopic sight at a range of 2,500 yd (2,286 m), taking down a single Vietcong guerilla.[21] This record was broken only in 2002, by Canadian snipers from the 3rd Bn. PPCLI during the War in Afghanistan. Hathcock was one of several individuals to utilize the M2 Browning machine gun in the sniping role. This success led to the adoption of the .50 BMG cartridge as a viable sniper round. Sniper rifles have since been designed around and chambered in this caliber since the 1970s. The Canadian Army snipers from the PPCLI also used the .50 BMG round in their record-breaking shots.

Springfield Armory designed a highly accurized version of their M1A Supermatch rifle with a McMillan Stock and match grade barrel and dubbed it the "M-25 White Feather". The rifle had a likeness of Hathcock's signature and his "white feather logo" marked on the receiver.[22]

Turner Saddlery similarly honored Hathcock by producing a line of leather rifle slings based on his design. The slings are embossed with Hathcock's signature.[23]

On March 9, 2007 the rifle and pistol complex at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar was officially renamed the Carlos Hathcock Range Complex.[24]
[edit] Books

Hathcock was the subject of a number of books including:

Chandler, Roy F. (1997). White feather: Carlos Hathcock USMC scout sniper : an authorized biographical memoir (1997 ed.). Iron Brigade Armory Publishing. ISBN 978-1-885633-09-5. - Total pages: 277
Henderson, Charles (2001). Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills (2001 ed.). Berkley Books. ISBN 978-0-425-18165-2. - Total pages: 315
Henderson, Charles W. (2003). Silent Warrior (2003 ed.). Berkley Books. ISBN 978-0-425-18864-4. - Total pages: 336
Sasser, Charles; Roberts, Craig (1990). One Shot, One Kill (1990 ed.). Pocket Books. ISBN 978-0-671-68219-4. - Total pages: 288

[edit] Weaponry

Hathcock generally used the standard sniper rifle: the Winchester Model 70 .30-06 caliber rifle with the standard 8-power Unertl scope. On some occasions, however, he used a different weapon: the M2 Browning machine gun, on which he mounted a 10X Unertl scope, using a bracket of his own design.[4] Hathcock made a number of kills with this weapon in excess of 1,000 yards, including his record for the longest confirmed kill at 2,500 yards.[4][25] Hathcock carried a Colt M1911A1 pistol as a sidearm.[9].

TX Hunter
April 15, 2012, 07:04 PM
You guys were talking about an extractor jumping the Rim.
I know that on my 1903A3 can be single fed and the Mauser style extractor will jump the Rim and the bolt will close.

On my Yugo 24 47 It must feed from the Magazine, if you try to drop a cartridge in the chamber the bolt wont close.

I dont know if this qualifies or helps in any way, but both Rifles feed and extract with precision, I would trust either one If I was face to Face with a Vicious Animal.

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 07:20 PM
Many times there are misconseptions resulting from limited experence. Many push feed guns are great performers, some are clunkers. The 700 has a sterling reputation for accuracy and long service. One misconception is the tools reguired to disassemble a mauser, Springfield 1903, Winchester model 70. The only tool required to completely disassemble and reassemble the bolt, firing pin, extactor, ejector, bolt stop, trigger, magazine box, and floorplate is a single screwdriver. As I understand it the 700 requires quite a number of tools to accomplish the same disassembly. Am I correct? I am not sure, but have seen a special tools to remove the firing pin and extractor. The ejector requires additional tool. The trigger system is a nightmare if a gunsmith I talked to is telling the truth. Then there is the 336 Marlin, a push feed gun that can be mostly disassembled with a single screwdriver. Nothing ever built wont fail. Some fail easier than others. While the question of the op was controled feed reliability, another factor to consider in reliable performence is the ejector. I have always has a preference to the fixed blade ejector. Has anyone had ejector failures?

30-30remchester
April 15, 2012, 07:26 PM
OLD ROPER, you are correct about Hathcock. My memory fails me as I get older, but there was another sniper in Vietnam with a higher body count, 114 IIRC. His name escapes me now but if I recall correctly he used a Remington 700, standard equipment at the time during his tour of duty.

old roper
April 15, 2012, 08:02 PM
30-30remchester, I left Da Nang in 1965 and you could see the changes being made and I'm sure had the ground troops had a choice in weapons vs what was chosen for them things may of been different.

TX Hunter
April 15, 2012, 08:13 PM
Its my understanding that the ground troops wanted the M14 but were forced to use the M16.
At the Start of the Vietnam War, 1903A4s were the Sniper Rifle, but the scopes fogged up in the high humidity, The Government started buying high quality comercial hunting rifles for sniper rifles.
That was before my time but I have read up on it.
I guess the Government stuck with the 700 after Winchester lowered its standards after 1964. Anyhow the Remington 700 has served well, It was still in use when I was in the Marnine Corps in the early 90s. It is still in use today, but I hear that the cartdige is about to be changed from the 7.62X51 Nato to something else, but Im not sure what.

WildBill45
April 15, 2012, 08:29 PM
Uncle Sugar picked the Remington 700/40X over the Model 70 ..... I'm sure he had his reasons, as well ......

YES HE DID, THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS GOES LOW BIDDER ... IT IS THE COST and less time to make more, NOT IF IT IS WORTHY IN THE LAND OF THE FED!!!

WildBill45
April 15, 2012, 08:34 PM
a higher body count, 114 IIRC. His name escapes me now but if I recall correctly he used a Remington 700, standard equipment at the time during his tour of duty.

A sniper rifle is not necessarily a good defensive rifle for real world use ... two different missions!

Push feed rifles are more accurate in most cases!

A charging bear or lion doesn't need five minute per shot groups, it needs one or two that works now, groups do not matter!

PH/CIB
April 15, 2012, 09:27 PM
I could not agree with WildBill45 more!

I have a friend who is a Brown Bear Guide on Admiralty Island,,,he has a friend also a Guide whose client wounded a brown bear on Admiralty,,,there were three of them the Guide, the Client and an Assistant Guide. The Guide insisted the Assistant Guide stay with the Client and he the Guide went into the brush to find the brown bear alone.

He found the brown bear or the brown bear found him and he killed it with one shot from his .416 rifle,,,unfortunately the bear did not know it was a killing shot and continued coming while the Guides rifle a push feed jammed on the try for a second shot,,,whether it jammed from extraction or ejection or feeding I do not know...The Assistant Guide heard the Guides screams as he was being mauled and ran through the brush and shot the bear killing it.

The Guide after getting out of a long recovery and stay in the hospital went back to guiding and bought a controlled round feed bolt action heavy rifle and then thought better of it and went out and bought a second rifle a double rifle.

I could be wrong but I believe most of the Professional Hunters in Africa use a controlled round feed bolt action rifle or a double rifle,,,there must be a reason for it.

If I were going back into combat give me a machine gun and a radio to call in fire missions...

If I were hunting non dangerous game or dangerous game with a Guide backing me up give me any old push feed rifle that is accurate.

If I were hunting dangerous game on my own with no backup or if I were a Guide protecting my Client only a Controlled Round Feed Bolt Action Rifle or a Double Rifle would do.

mrawesome22
April 16, 2012, 12:43 AM
jmr40 hit the bullseye.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

Jim Watson
April 16, 2012, 12:55 AM
Not all controlled feed actions are created the same.
The Springfield is controlled feed FROM THE MAGAZINE, but the extractor is beveled on front and has enough clearance to snap over a pushed single round because it was designed to do so, being equipped with a cutoff to encourage single shot firing until the enemy charged. Riight.

The '98 Mauser was designed not only with controlled feed out of the magazine but with a cam cut that seated the extractor tighter against the bolt head and cartridge rim as it was pulled back to eject. Do the knockoffs from Springfield and Winchester? I don't remember and my rifles of those makes are out of reach.

If the US Army hadn't gotten sidetracked with the Norwegian Experiment, we might have had a plain Mauser and things would be different now. Or a Remington Lee.

Art Eatman
April 16, 2012, 08:14 AM
Looks to me that for those few who might have to play Dodgem with nasty critters and maybe have to reload and shoot while in an awkward position, the CRF would definitely be preferred.

Since I've never had that problem, and likely never will, CRF or PF is a matter of indifference to me. I've used both types in several examples of each, and have never had a problem.

But I reckon that folks oughta do whatever they think is right...

taylorce1
April 16, 2012, 09:53 AM
Since I've spent the last 42+ hrs. in a Dodge City Motel waiting for weather I've had a ton of time to research this. What I can find by most PH's on other forums that talk about CRF vs. other types of rifles is the problem with short stroking a rifle bolt. To some of the hunters this meant not fully pulling the bolt to the rear and picking up the next round from the magazine.

To the PH's it meant not fully closing the bolt fully after reloading from the initial shot, before trying to work a third round and it caused two primary problems. Push feeds will either drop the unfired cartridge on top of the other rounds in the magazine causing it to try to double feed. The other was the unfired cartridge remaining in the chamber and the next round being jammed into the back of the cartridge and the hunter unable to close the bolt. So the CRF was preferred not for controlling the round from the magazine but for the extraction and not leaving the round sitting on top of the others.

There were several other issues the PH's touched on as well that they thought were more important than what kind or rifle you used. They had hunters showing up with several different kinds of ammunition that all shot different POI. Not shooting the rifle at all before the hunting trip. Showing up with expensive double rifles and not remembering that it had two triggers one for each barrel.

Plus then there are things that could happen that even with a CRF action isn't going to save your butt. Murphy is always in play and things could happen like a case head separation even with new cases. Other things like dud/squib or overpressure loads that can happen with factory ammunition as well as hand loads. That could either leave you with an obstructed bore or an action you need a hammer and a 2x4 to open. A perfectly maintained rifle that the firing pin breaks after the first shot or failure of mechanical nature, it has all happened to people and hopefully before the hunt took place and at the range.

To me and to put it into terms I'm familiar with is to view CRF as a control to mitigate risk. People are going to get hurt and/or die hunting dangerous game or else it wouldn't be called that. While you can do things to mitigate that risk such as practice handling drills with your rifle, having a CRF/double rifle, and using quality components to put everything together it is still at risk when the first shot doesn't make the animal dead when they have a tendency to fight back.

WildBill45
April 16, 2012, 09:04 PM
I bought some custom .458 Lott loads, 500 grain, solid brass bullets, loaded by a famous custom loader. I set up my Oehler 35P to chrono the load, and when I fired the first shot IT WAS A DANDY! It read 2700 FPS Plus, a Weatherby .460 load for god's sake! It felt like it too!

The pressure was so high it discolored the action on my CZ 550 Lott!!! I had to use a piece of wood to beat the round back out of the chamber ... not good during a lion charge...


The CZ stood up to the shot after the round was beat out, and the primer fell out onto the ground. The stress was terrible on case, gun, action and me.

The Custom loader to remain unknown, did reload the rounds with Star Brass instead of the original brand; they worked as they should have, no problems.

THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER, AND I MEAN NEVER, GO INTO THE FIELD OF BATTLE--ANIMAL OR MAN--WITHOUT TESTING NEW LOADS AND THE RIFLE WITH THOSE LOADS, EVEN IF YOU HAVE ORDERED THEM BEFORE!!!

Brass, powder, and other things change, and you must know beforehand that there is no man made problem. No rifle is impervious to man made problems, and this is why I like the Mauser style action. With all that high pressure, the extractor being beaten with wood to open and get the round out, STILL PULLED IT OUT, AND WAS GOOD TO GO AFTER!

THAT WAS A SHOT I WILL REMEMBER. THE GOOD THING IS, IT WORKED, IF I HIT WHAT I WAS AIMING AT IT WOULD HAVE HAD AN ATTITUDE CHANGE.

PH/CIB
April 17, 2012, 12:19 PM
"Plus then there are things that could happen that even with a CRF action isn't going to save your butt. Murphy is always in play and things could happen like a case head separation even with new cases. Other things like dud/squib or overpressure loads that can happen with factory ammunition as well as hand loads. That could either leave you with an obstructed bore or an action you need a hammer and a 2x4 to open. A perfectly maintained rifle that the firing pin breaks after the first shot or failure of mechanical nature, it has all happened to people and hopefully before the hunt took place and at the range."
Quote Taylorce1

"The pressure was so high it discolored the action on my CZ 550 Lott!!! I had to use a piece of wood to beat the round back out of the chamber ... not good during a lion charge..." Quote WildBill45

This is an excellent arguement that the Double Rifle is the best rifle for dangerous game,,,the almost assured availability of a life saving second shot. And even if one barrel or side goes bad you still have the other barrel or side to shoot as a single shot where if a bolt action controlled round feed or push feed rifle goes bad you have no rifle at all.

Then there is the age old arguement of the Professional Hunters that a Sidelock Double Rifle with sidelocks that can more easily be taken off, cleaned and possibly repaired in the field is superior to a boxlock double rifle. The sidelock versus boxlock action is another debate that rages on.

So I suppose the first choice in a dangerous game rifle would be a sidelock double rifle, the second choice would be a boxlock double rifle, the third choice would be a controlled round feed bolt action rifle and the last choice would be a push feed bolt action rifle.

For armchair dangerous game hunters and commandos such as myself with nothing more dangerous than a hot cup of coffee and a computer to attack me,,,my push feed rifles will work just fine!

Bart B.
April 17, 2012, 12:42 PM
While the Rem. 700 action was selected for the M40 military sniper rifle, it wasn't because it was superior to the Win. 70 one. Note that Winchester was in dire financial straits back then and the USA military folks didn't want to chance it going under. So they picked the flimsy, cantankerous Remington over the stiff, reliable Winchester.

Too bad the current Remington 700's aren't as good as those made a few decades ago. Their current accuracy's not what it used to be.

Savage99
April 17, 2012, 02:46 PM
Not 'good' machinery. The bolt for the stamped out-economy person.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3qbY4UdhbrPy3fQYX9Qx2O13pcN1hkrK8TAdUAIzDniuTzUbZ

WildBill45
April 17, 2012, 05:07 PM
"The pressure was so high it discolored the action on my CZ 550 Lott!!! I had to use a piece of wood to beat the round back out of the chamber ... not good during a lion charge..."

Actually I beat the bolt handle, which then still ejected the round with the force being applied on the bolt handle during the beat down. This showed me how well the extractor worked, as it kept its grip even in these dire circumstances! A push feed extractor would have broken or skipped over the rim!

TX Hunter
April 17, 2012, 08:59 PM
I am a Fan of the Controlled Feed Bolt Action Rifle, The Most Dangerous Game that I hunt is Wild Boar, but I use a Ruger M77 for that.

What shocked me, is that Larry Poterfields Dangerous Game Rifle is a Push Feed.
I saw it on Midway USAs Wednesday Night at the Range.
Larry is a Highly Skilled Professional Gunsmith, It suprises me that he would choose a Push Feed for his Safari Rifle. He has probably forgotten more about guns than most people will ever know. :confused:

I buy Reloading Supplies from His Buisness, and Love Midway USA.

WildBill45
April 17, 2012, 09:55 PM
What shocked me, is that Larry Poterfields Dangerous Game Rifle is a Push Feed

You can afford that luxury when you have a Pro Hunter behind you with a CRF rifle!:D

Walking the bush along the Russian River in Alaska by yourself is another story. No expensive backup rifleman, no help, and no quarter if you make a mistake...

Besides, some of the most known men do the most dumb things ... that is why some of them get dead, and getting dead in Africa is an easy to do!

JohnKSa
April 17, 2012, 11:10 PM
You can afford that luxury when you have a Pro Hunter behind you with a CRF rifle!I doubt that many people consider it a luxury to have someone else shoot your game for you after you've paid the money and spent the time to hunt dangerous game in Africa.

I've heard this argument, but I can't believe that anyone would spend the considerable amount of time and money it takes to hunt dangerous game in Africa and do so with a gun they truly believe is inferior because they know they have a PH as backup.

Even more upsetting would be spending all that money and time and then having your PH actually make the kill because the rifle that you carried over there knowing it to be inferior, jammed after the first shot and he had to do the honors.

So what we've got is one of two possibilities if we truly assume that a person would carry a rifle they believe to be inferior to hunt dangerous game in Africa.

1. A hunter who cares enough about hunting to spend the time and effort to hunt dangerous game in Africa but doesn't actually care about hunting dangerous game in Africa because he doesn't care if his PH does the shooting for him.

2. A hunter who cares enough about hunting to spend the time and effort to hunt dangerous game in Africa but doesn't care enough about hunting to buy a decent rifle.

Both of those are contradictory situations because the person must simultaneously both care a lot and not care about hunting.

We are also forced to assume that this person who hasn't been able to use simple logic up to this point without being clearly contradictory IS able to use logic to decide that it doesn't matter if he gets in a jam due to his inferior weapon because his PH will bail him out.

So now this person has to be both logical and illogical and both care about and not care about hunting all at once.

I have to conclude that it's highly unlikely that anyone would go to Africa to hunt dangerous game with a rifle they actually believe is not up to the task and that's whether or not there's a PH to provide backup. had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.What sort of problems?

Lloyd Smale
April 18, 2012, 05:20 AM
ive used both and have never had a problem with either. Ive got a buddy who goes to africa just about every year and probably owns near a 100 rifles. i asked him what his favorite rifle for africa was and he said his custom shop 416 rem 700. I asked him about his opinion on controlled round feeding and he said he had never had a single problem with a push feed gun and asked many guides and hunters about this question and had never once heard of an actual problem with a push feed gun. He said that a few guides told him that back in the day when factory ammo was sketchy at best for quality that some problems with over pressure would crop up and cause stick extration and that in that case the guides would prefer a mauser with its bigger and stonger extractor but bottom line is if your in that prediciment your not going to get the bolt open without beating it anyway and by that time whatever wants to stomp you is going to have done it allready. Same goes for feeding upside down. If your into that much trouble chances are 99 percent of us arent going to be cool enough to get it done anyway. there may be small advantages to controled round feeding for a guide on a dangerous game hunt that has to protect his client but for the normal guy on safari its a moot point. More a discussion for so called internet experts then any real world differnces.

Savage99
April 18, 2012, 09:14 AM
The controlled round feed rifle is better machinery to me. I grew up in a tool and die shop that my late dad owned. I used to turn parts by pulling on the lathes leather belt when I was a child. He would not let me turn on the motor.

I operated Bridgeports, drill presses, threaded parts and more. I still have one of his lathes and other tools running in my basement.

A push feed gun is just fine. My eyes enjoy watching the machinery work.

Also those who have had failures with second rate machinery don't post.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQl0WPVLKZ_hCKu0braUnJGB3SrZy-ntF6aAmw15wNxVifBRvAnsMNG6VEcUQ

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 10:47 AM
I have to conclude that it's highly unlikely that anyone would go to Africa to hunt dangerous game with a rifle they actually believe is not up to the task and that's whether or not there's a PH to provide backup.

Your premise is incorrect. Some folks do it because they Don't know better ... this is why some folks get A's in school, and some a C! Everyone is not the same, which your premise is based on... Period...

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 10:50 AM
ive used both and have never had a problem with either. Ive got a buddy who goes to africa just about every year and probably owns near a 100 rifles. i asked him

Some of you guys are funny. This one sounds like a TV commercial, "I am NOT a doctor, but I Play one on TV."

"My Friend said, My doctor said..."

Funny, experts by proxy!!!:)

You have to admit these forums draw out different kind of folks!:eek:

THE POINT OF THE POST IS YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT MATTER. IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED TENNIS, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T POST AN OPINE ON HOW TO SERVE LIKE Björn Borg!

Lloyd Smale
April 18, 2012, 11:06 AM
Bill id have to guess ive killed as much game with bolt guns as anyone here. NO i havent been to africa and dont claim to have. Now tell us what you base all your advice on? How many elephants and cape buffalo charges have you stopped!! I shoot and shoot alot. I also listen to guys i personaly know that have experience. Not to someone on the computer that has more keyboard experience then actually game killing experience. Best check on who your slamming. Ive got as much or more experience loading casting and shooting all forms of firearms then most. I use my real name on every fourm i go on and am respected on all of them.

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 11:16 AM
Now tell us what you base all your advice on?

I have been to Africa 3 times, with one World Record entry in the SCI book!

But, and there always is a but in life, this is not about me, it is not a peeing contest as previously stated, it is your opine based on experience ... NOTE, it doesn't say African experience ... on the CRF in dangerous situations.

That is all...

I will say again, I feel more comfortable with a CRF action when confronted by dangerous game than with a push-feed action. What have you (You, as in you all)???

Lloyd Smale
April 18, 2012, 11:19 AM
well thats just fine. Keep in mind though that your opinion isnt worth a plugged nickle more then anyone elses and it doesnt give you the right to slam someone elses. I gave my opinion of it too. Didnt slam yours.

chewie146
April 18, 2012, 11:30 AM
Sheesh simmer down, guys. I have killed elk with a Remington 700 and a Ruger M77. The only failure I've ever had while hunting was with a sidelock Thomson Center, and that was an issue with the cap. Frankly, the hunting we do is pretty rough on a rifle and it is dusty out here most of the time, especially after the fire came through. I've never had a failure to feed with factory or reloaded ammunition with either rifle. I've never had a failure to extract, either. If I had to count on a rifle to feed upside down, it would probably be a good story to tell later. If I had to go for dangerous game anywhere, I'd take either rifle in a scaled up caliber suitable for the task.

Savage 99, is that a Saiga?

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 11:45 AM
well thats just fine. Keep in mind though that your opinion isnt worth a plugged nickle more then anyone elses and it doesnt give you the right to slam someone elses. I gave my opinion of it too. Didnt slam yours.

You are right, my opinion is maybe less than a nickel, but I am not sure what a plugged nickel is!:) I was trying not to be personal, just point, counterpoint, nothing personal my friend. My style in writing may not come across as such at times as I am direct, but in person it is easier to read facial expression, etc, and not have as much tension depending on interpretation of the written word, which is based on culture, style, and even where you are from!

Buzzcook
April 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
The Guide after getting out of a long recovery and stay in the hospital went back to guiding and bought a controlled round feed bolt action heavy rifle and then thought better of it and went out and bought a second rifle a double rifle. emphasis mine.

If I were to hunt dangerous game, from jumbo down to magic grizzly, I'd use a four bore double. That is not likely to happen.

I'm another person that has never had a problem with either CFR or PFR.
Most of the problems people have when it comes time to shoot is operator error.

Buzzcook
April 18, 2012, 12:33 PM
THE POINT OF THE POST IS YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT MATTER. IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED TENNIS, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T POST AN OPINE ON HOW TO SERVE LIKE Björn Borg!

That's simply silly. There are lots of thing that can be learned without direct experience. It is the ultimate in the appeal to authority error.
I f a person has hunted any type of medium or large game, it is not a big jump to hunting other types of game. They simply have to be shown where to put the bullet.
I have never hunted bear, don't want to don't care for the taste, but I'm pretty sure I could kill one without too much difficulty.

jmr40
April 18, 2012, 02:25 PM
Under normal circumstances a PF will feed just as reliably as CRF, and do it upside down just as well.

With this I will contend, with push feed there isn't any accomodation to counter gravity.


With either type the cartridge does not completely snap free from the magazine feed lips until the cartridge is almost all the way into the chamber. Gravity has no chance to work.

I'll repeat, both types feed into the chamber equally well. Both types are just as reliable if clean and clean in spec ammo is used.

The CRF rifles extraction and ejection system is much more rugged and bulletproof and will continue to work with a rifle that is filthy, abused, or with muddy ammo that is loaded into the chamber. That could be an advantage when facing dangerous game, but it is a myth that a CRF feeds more reliably. I prefer CRF, but because it is a more rugged design.

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 04:05 PM
I f a person has hunted any type of medium or large game, it is not a big jump to hunting other types of game. They simply have to be shown where to put the bullet.

Negative ... lions, leopards and some species of bear hunt you back! Seriously, you wound a deer who cares, you wound one of the dangerous ones you have a whole new world where your skill sets are quite different, NOT SIMPLY as you have suggested. This is not a joke, these animals will kill you, and simply put, where to put a bullet on a charging lion that is a blur doesn't come simply! I have seen lions run so fast after stuff ... they are literally a blur, I am not kidding. Do not disrespect them by putting them in any parameter to compare them to hunting non-predators. That is silly by any means!

A broadside whitetail compared to a 1000 pound charging head-on Brownie, and you think it is the same?

No offense, but you may want to reconsider your thoughts with that one. But, and there always is a but in life, you still should develop the skills to handle such, as deer, and elk have attacked before. Just shooting a rifle means nothing to the skill sets we are talking about. One shot boom, take your eyes off the target to rack another, and then line up the scope ... NO, that don't work in the long grass or the elders of Alaska.

A lion can cover a football field in less than 4 seconds, at 20 yards we are talking parts of seconds ... you wouldn't even get your rifle to your shoulder. They are not like a car coming at you at 45mph, they are bouncing up and down whilst going side to side with each paw digging and kicking up dirt to launch, all you see is tawny colors and teeth! Bears busting out of the brush are similar ... a 'Joe' deer or elk hunter wouldn't even get a shot off or be in a position to do so in most cases. This is a hard skill to acquire, and it takes years to develop ... it is not something that should be excused with such disrespect...

This is where EXPERIENCE comes in!

Lloyd Smale
April 18, 2012, 04:29 PM
keep in mind though that you can go on 20 safaris and still never aquire those skills. We were at a linebaugh seminar once where they had a charging bear target. these guys are some of the best handgun shots in the world but even that target of a bear comming at them would put so much pressure on them that many couldnt even put a shot on the target let alone a kill shot. I personaly think its more of your mental makeup then it is how well you or your rifle shoots and it sure aint going to make a pinch whether its a remington or a ruger or a mauser! I guess thats why were not dangerous game guides and why there nessisary on a dangerous game hunt.

WildBill45
April 18, 2012, 05:06 PM
keep in mind though that you can go on 20 safaris and still never aquire those skills.

This is absolutely true! One of the most famous/notorious PH's is Cotton Gordon, who I knew personally in Colorado. He said ... here I go with a friend said story ... some guys, mainly very rich, some from the middle east of high level of society ... show up with a double-rifle they have never shot, or shot any gun, but want to hunt elephants...

I am mainly talking about self-defense situations where you have to handle it yourself, and lions would not be the case for most of us. We have to have Pros with us while in most African Countries, and Alaska if hunting situations for dangerous game if you do not have relatives as I do there:) Self-defense situations you probably will be without a Pro in most cases...

Jim Watson
April 18, 2012, 05:42 PM
Whatever you get, be sure it works.
An Intrepid Nimrod here bought a major big name gunzine endorsed multi kilobuck CRF. It just HAD to be better than the Remington he took to Africa the first time, right?
Wrong.
It would not feed much of anything, never mind controlled. The maker was not much help, he replaced a bad part with a bad part. Eventually FLG spent a lot of time making a different model's magazine follower fit and get rounds up and aimed at the chamber.

Being a target rather than game shooter I always say there is a special name for people who enter a match with untried gear: Loser.
In Africa or Alaska it could be worse - Dinner.

JohnKSa
April 18, 2012, 08:16 PM
Some folks do it because they Don't know better ...If you read my post you will see that it was SPECIFICALLY oriented at the idea that someone would go to hunt dangerous game in Africa with a gun that

"they truly believe is inferior"
"knowing it to be inferior"
"they believe to be inferior"
"they actually believe is not up to the task"Everyone is not the same, which your premise is based on... Period...Your response and the quote that you responded to weren't about "everyone", they were about one specific person.

The initial comment was that Potterfield, "a highly skilled professional gunsmith" carried a push feed to Africa. The implication being that he knows about the two different actions and still chose the "inferior" one. You responded saying that he could afford that luxury because he had a PH to back him up.

I'm saying that doesn't hold water because it's doubly illogical for someone to carry a rifle they truly believe is inferior to Africa to hunt dangerous game.

Of course, people who don't know better might do foolish things, but no one is saying that Potterfield doesn't know anything about guns/rifles. It would be ludicrous to even make an argument along those lines.

Which means Potterfield doesn't really believe that the push feed is inferior or he wouldn't have taken one to Africa to hunt dangerous game unless he's simultaneously logical and illogical and simultaneously cares a lot about hunting and doesn't care about hunting.THE POINT OF THE POST IS YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT MATTER. IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED TENNIS, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T POST AN OPINE ON HOW TO SERVE LIKE Björn Borg!But if you know someone with lots of experience, it would certainly make sense to ask him and then post HIS personal opinion. I believe that is a much closer analogy to what the person actually did since he was quoting the opinion of someone who had been to Africa "just about every year".This is where EXPERIENCE comes in!Everybody who has killed a lion has killed at least one lion without experience. That's the way it goes....had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.Let's try this a third time. What kind of problems?

Bart B.
April 18, 2012, 11:11 PM
When I was shooting in South Africa in the late '90's, I asked some of the old timers who lived and hunted there about Winchester 70's, both controll feed pre '64;s and the later push feed post '64 actions as well as the Rem. 700 in large bore dangerous game rifles. They all said the pre '64 Winchesters and other Mauser style controlled feed actions were preferred by most. But the Remington' worst problems were extractors breaking and recoil lugs bending from the big bore calibers; they were not all that popular.

briandg
April 18, 2012, 11:54 PM
there are valid points that the push feed is not unreliable. They both, IMO, put the cartridge in the chamber without fail.



I use a .22 lr bolt that is controlled feed. Emptying it is a matter of running the bolt back and forth until the magazine is empty and the chamber has no round visible in it.

My brother left a round in the magazine of my 700 once. Without watching the whole process, I worked the bolt a couple of times, but the round in the magazine was pushed into the chamber and not extracted. I didn't see that as I did it, and forgot that the bolt of that rifle wasn't like the bolt in the rest of my rifles. After one last look at the action, I closed the bolt, aimed it downrange and pulled the trigger.

DAMN!!!! THERE WAS A BULLET IN IT!

I like controlled feed especially for that reason.

Buzzcook
April 19, 2012, 01:10 AM
This is a hard skill to acquire, and it takes years to develop

And yet, as in all things, there is a first time. Your argument is that there never should be a first time, because the hunter doesn't have the experience.

Gunplummer
April 19, 2012, 01:24 AM
I had to use "Push feed" with the game shooting back. I don't remember anybody wanting a control feed bolt action over the service rifle.

dgludwig
April 19, 2012, 10:05 AM
The CRF rifles extraction and ejection system is much more rugged and bulletproof and will continue to work with a rifle that is filthy, abused, or with muddy ammo that is loaded into the chamber. That could be an advantage when facing dangerous game, but it is a myth that a CRF feeds more reliably. I prefer CRF, but because it is a more rugged design.

This is true but it is also true that rifles have been made that are push feeds and still have the Mauser-type extractor/ejector "more rugged design" (i.e., the original Ruger Model 77).

WildBill45
April 19, 2012, 04:23 PM
"a highly skilled professional gunsmith"

That is right, that is what Potterfield is!

A piano maker does not make a piano player either....

Some can make them, some can play them.

Rifles are no different!

I take it you are a Spock fan, using logic where no logic is ... we are talking facts not theory!

Cops that only use logic never catch the good bad guys, because they are not logical or they wouldn't be a bad guy in the first place!!!

Live long and prosper!

You are funny!:)

JohnKSa
April 19, 2012, 05:50 PM
A piano maker does not make a piano player either....No, but a piano maker is someone who understands how pianos work, and that's why it's appropriate to point it out in Potterfield's case.

We are talking facts, and Potterfield is someone who understands the facts of how rifles work. Yet he still chose to take a rifle action you consider "inferior" to Africa to hunt dangerous game.You are funny!People tell me that all the time. I tell them that looks aren't everything! ;)...had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.What kind of problems have you had with push feed rifles?

TX Hunter
April 19, 2012, 09:36 PM
This is for those interested, because it has made the post more entertaining, at Mr Potterfields expense. :) The Remington 700 belongs to him, and is the one he showed on the interview I watched. He calls it his Nearly Perfect Safari Rifle.
Myself I would prefer Controlled Feed, but I have a couple or Rifles I wish Larry would tweek for me.

The Rifle in the Video belongs to Mr Potterfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF65ycD7Q50


I Edited my post because this Video explains Larrys Rifle Better, Enjoy:)

Guv
April 20, 2012, 09:18 AM
If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?:confused:

Savage99
April 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
GUV,

You posted above:

"If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?

All of the Savage 99 lever action rifles are control round feed!

Here are some real hunting rifles. These rifles were not stamped out or made as cheap as possible. A hunter would have pride carrying one.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg42/scaled.php?server=42&filename=184oi.jpg&res=landing

TX Hunter
April 20, 2012, 10:08 AM
Hey whats that sporter on the bottom ? It kind of looks like a Modified Nagant, but Im not sure, Its a nice looking Rifle. Infact all of the Rifles Pictured are nice looking, and you are right, Im a hunter and would be proud to carry any of them.

Jim Watson
April 20, 2012, 10:21 AM
You're joshin' me, aren't you?
It is, like the other two bolt actions, a Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
All four rifles share one thing... a rotary magazine.
W.D.M. Bell really liked the MS but moved on because of poor quality Austrian ammunition.

Savage99
April 20, 2012, 10:45 AM
Those four rifles are on a bench at the range. When I go to the range I usually take four rifles.

The top rifle is a Brno 22F 8X57 with a 2.5-8 Kahles scope.
Next is a MS 30-06 with a Leu. 3.5-10.
Then my most used woods rifle, my 99F .358 W. 2-7 Leu.
Last is a MS full stocked carbine .358 W. 2.5-8 Conquest.

Guv
April 20, 2012, 01:41 PM
The lever gun in question was a Marlin 45-70, I have 2 99's (an A .308 and a C 7mm08) and knew they where CRF. The 7-08 made me start handloading due to poor accuracy of the only factory load available 25 years ago. I would like to see Savage, now that they are back on their feet start producing the 99 again.

WildBill45
April 20, 2012, 05:17 PM
What kind of problems have you had with push feed rifles?

The problem with my 350 Rem. Mag KS, is I have on certain occasions had the round jam up against the feed ramp, probably when under stress if I recall correctly, trying to go fast! I didn't have many problems with any of push feed Winchesters, which were a few in various calibers.

I don't dislike push feed rifles, I just trust CRF more in dangerous situations. I loved my Weatherby 300 made in the 60s, etc...

I may take a few rounds out with my video camera and work the 350 KS a bit at speed and see what happens. If I trusted it I would drop the scope, and it is a nice scope setup, and put Ghost Rings on it for bear protection this summer in Alaska while fishin'! The Kevlar stock, one piece scope mounts, make for a very light package with some punch!

WildBill45
April 20, 2012, 05:23 PM
If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?

Good questions my friend!

When I moved back east from Colorado I sold so much stuff, such as my reloading bench to my hunting buddy. My shootin' bud here is setting up a nice station and I may get back to it. But a good point indeed!

The lever gun is a Browning 450 Marlin, BLR takedown I gave to my son. He needs it to pack in small aircraft, etc. It is a handy rifle. When I go there he carries that one, and I carry my CZ 550, 450 Lott! I was considering buying my own lever 45/70 and doing the bead thing. Nice lever guns, if actually facing a big, angry bear, you betcha I would wish I had my CRF rifle!

I just trust those hefty CRF rifles ... bad habits from knowing, and hunting with African Pros! It is like my old S&W model 19, then they made us carry the S&W 9mm auto, which worked well, but, and there always is a but in life, when faced with an armed suspect I always longed for the trusty model 19 again!

WildBill45
May 1, 2012, 08:46 PM
This is for those interested, because it has made the post more entertaining, at Mr Potterfields expense. The Remington 700 belongs to him, and is the one he showed on the interview I watched. He calls it his Nearly Perfect Safari Rifle.

Nice rifle. I would love to have it for deer and elk, but not for buff or lion! I tend to go with riflemen who actually killed many, many dangerous animals, not a few on a well to do holiday in the long grass.

Cotton Gordon, Jim Carmichel, to start! There is a big difference in experience and theory, experience is the side I stand on every time!

Art Eatman
May 1, 2012, 10:06 PM
Beddy-bye time for this thread. Rest assured, dearly beloved, it will come around again, and won't come any closer to being settled than it has before. :D