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RevJim
April 11, 2012, 09:17 AM
At this point, we can only speculate about what happened in the Trayvon Martin shooting, which leads no where. We do not know the facts and none of us were there. Therefore I will stay away from the specifics and the specualtions. However, from a tactical point of view, it seems like we can learn a lot from this case.

For instance, having a gun does not make one invincible. I have not see Bill Cosby's direct quotes, but he mentioned that some people think a gun empowers them to do things they would not normally do. All of us that carry ought to think carefully about that concept. Too many times a gun makes us feel "tougher" and we act more aggressively. From a tactical standpoint, having a gun should not make us more aggressive. If we find ourselves going places and doing things that we would not do without a gun, perhaps we need to rethink our strategy. We should perhaps stay inside our car instead of getting out; we should perhaps stay inside our house instead of racing outside to investigate; perhaps we should stay hidden rather than reveal our position. Having a gun does not make us invincible.

Another thing we may need to think carefully about is our appearance and how we behave. Our appearance conveys a message to people. If we dress a certain way, it conveys a different message to different people. For instance, wearing a leather jacket and riding a Harley motorcylce can intimidate certain people and will put them on the defensive. Am I saying that no one should ever wear leather jackets and ride a Harely? Absolutely not! But I am saying that we need to be mindful of the way we dress and how we act - these affect how people PERCEIVE us. Sadly, perceptions can be very wrong. But as wrong as someone's perception may be, there perception affects how they will react to certain situations. As an example, when I see three or four young men hanging around a place, my perception is that they MIGHT be up to no good. In fact, they may just be waiting for a friend to join them as they go volunteer at an orphanage. But my perception is that a possible danger lurks nearby, and I become defensive. Should one of those young men approach me and ask for a contribution for their orphan work, I would be less likely to donate than if an elderly lady approached me and used the same exact words. As an example, when I was in college, I left the computer lab late one winter evening and put on my black jacket and my black gloves as I walked across the campus (around 10:00 pm). As I walked along, I noticed that I was going to intersect a young lady walking across campus alone. When she noticed me 25 yards away and walking fast (I was hurrying home), she almost dropped her books! Here I was, walking rapidly and wearing a black jacket and black gloves, and she PERCEIVED that I might be a danger. Rather than frighten her any more, I immediately stopped and tied my shoe; Ishe practically ran past the intersection point and hurried off into the night! We ought to be mindful of our appearance and our behavior.

Another lesson we might want to consider is our willingness to engage in confrontations. The first two issues come into play here. We do not know the other person and we do not know their perception of us. Our willingness to engage another person may intimidate them and put them on the defensive if their perception of us is negative. IF we chose to confront someone, we should carefully consider our approach and be wary of their response. Perhaps we would be better off not confronting someone over a parking spot or a driving infraction. I have seen videos of people getting cut off while driving; the individual who got cut off then follows the offender, waits until the driver exits his vehicle and leaves, and then damages the offender's car! This kind of behavior can get a person killed!

These are three lessons that I have learned from the Florida incident. Without discussing the Florida incident, what other lessons can we learn?

ChaseReynolds
April 11, 2012, 09:25 AM
Well that is pretty deep. I think you made alot of strong points and I totally agree. I have no input other than good job. I never thought of it that way. I don't carry (not old enough) but I will keep this in mind when I do.

jstgsn
April 11, 2012, 09:31 AM
Treat everyone you meet as though you were going to meet them everyday for the rest of your life,

but always keep in mind,

you someday may have to kill them.


If you want peace, prepare for war.

zincwarrior
April 11, 2012, 09:51 AM
I think a better lesson to be learned is, never get out of the car.

There are other lessons, but you probably are intending this to be a law abiding scenario, and not include such time honored traditions as "drop guns.":eek:

BlueTrain
April 11, 2012, 10:12 AM
I suppose you're correct. We may go to war with our neighbors. "Someday you may want to kill them."

Is that the way it is these days?

I think there is another trend that goes along with this. It is the gated community mindset. There seems to be the idea that you can wall off yourself from the rest of the world and literally privatize yourself. It means that the law no longer means anything. Private rules are all that matter. The rule of an elected government has been usurped. In fact, the rules of private organizations like home owner's associations tend to be much stricter than public law. I'm not sure this is all a good thing.

There also is the mindset that having a gun makes you a deputized member of the law enforcement community in some way. To be sure, you are enabled and empowered but you are not authorized. You have no police powers no more than you have the power to bring someone back from the dead.

Doyle
April 11, 2012, 10:46 AM
I tend to agree. Having a weapon is a means to get OUT of a bad situation. It does not give you any more right or reason to get yourself INTO a bad situation.

aarondhgraham
April 11, 2012, 10:49 AM
Observe and Report does not mean Follow and Confront.

Aarond

.

BarryLee
April 11, 2012, 02:39 PM
I may be a little different than some folks, but I have found myself to be less aggressive since I started carrying a firearm on a regular basis. For instance the other day as I was driving someone started tailgating me and when I slowed to turn they gave me the “you're number one” sign. In the past I might have returned the gesture, but this time as soon as the incident occurred the first thing I thought was – you have a gun. I did not think this because I felt empowered to be aggressive, but just the opposite that I need to do my best to avoid situations that might result in me being forced to use the gun.

C0untZer0
April 11, 2012, 03:15 PM
We don't have carry in Illinois, but if we ever do get it - one thing I am going to make certain of is that our neighborhood crime watch people have strict guidelines - or maybe even drop the neighborhood crime watch.

If you belong to a home owner's association and the crime watch is formed by the association, then this is an issue that you as a member of that association better be aware of and involved in.

I do think a lessons learned takeaway though for members of a HOA - you should be sure what the guidelines are for members of your nieghborhood crime watch, and be certain of who is on that watch.

drcook
April 11, 2012, 03:30 PM
Another thing that can be learned from this issue has to do with the homeowner assocation itself and belonging to one. I realize my post here is not firearm related per se, but people, as members of a homeowner association, can be held liable for lawsuits against such association. early on in the opening days of the issue in Fla, there was a news article about what happens if the Martin family sues and wins. It was reported that in another lawsuit, the homeowner association lost and each and every member (read that household) of the association had to contribute (actually was legally forced to pony up) $7000.00 as their share of the award.

While a person may not agree with every policy or implied policy/action/etc of a homeowner association, by moving in a joining such, you can be deemed guilty by association (no pun intended).

Jamie B
April 11, 2012, 04:14 PM
Never, but never, assume that the legal process will afford you innocence until proven guilty, even though it is supposed to.

Never trust that the legal process will provide you a fair and balanced trial.

Make logical and rational decisions, even in a SD situation.

Don't share your personal observations, opinions, or telegraph your beliefs on social media for all the world to see (and later dissect).

Learn to keep your mouth shut. Listen more than talk.

Trust no one.

Doc TH
April 11, 2012, 04:18 PM
Have to agree with Aarond.

And as another poster above noted, CCW imposes a higher degree of responsibility and maturity because of the increased potential of serious harm.

Bubba in c.a.
April 11, 2012, 05:41 PM
First, the Stand your Ground Laws are new and will be challenged in court. period, that is the nature of new laws.

Second, keep your distance from suspicious characters--they might just be football players who can move faster than you!

Third, SYG, etc. are a direct assault on the ``rights`` and welfare of the urban underclass and their political representatives and they know it.

Fourth, when attached, the underclass rallies around it's own. When attached, normal folks hide, snivel, and nit-pick their own.

Net, net, welcome to the elections of 2012.

RevJim
April 11, 2012, 05:47 PM
Until we know the facts of the Trayvon Martin case, we cannot apply specific tactics to the specific situation. To keep this thread from getting locked, please refrain from discussing that situation. And while we have our own opinions concerning the politics involved, there are few tactics that we can apply to politics! :D

So what lessons have you learned? What principles have you taken away from the situation? I believe someone stated a frightening principle - just because we feel justified in shooting someone in self-defense, what will a district attorney say, and what will a jury of our peers say if we go to trial?

Alaska444
April 11, 2012, 06:08 PM
Certainly, we can learn that as a home owners association member myself with some recent break ins, we are looking at setting up a neighborhood watch as well. I will be sure to have rules and regulations in the neighborhood watch that make an observation only watch even though many carry up in that part of Idaho. The way law suits go, I don't want to have to cough up thousands of dollars for some creep or his family if some sort of incident were to occur.

On the other hand, they are now targeting what had been a very nice and safe neighborhood and we need to respond in some manner to their provocation. They recently broke into 4-5 RVs and a few houses unoccupied in the winter months. First time that has happened in this well established neighborhood.

But following and confronting folks just seems like the wrong way to handle your CCW privileges in my opinion, not withstanding what is not known about the Florida case, but just in general.

Bubba in c.a.
April 11, 2012, 06:11 PM
you are not talking thousands of dollars--you are talking millions.

shurshot
April 11, 2012, 06:50 PM
The lesson from Florida? Think and act like Sheriff Taylor, not Barney Fife!
Your brain and the ability to remain objective, not to mention on the right side of the law, are much more important than ego. The trigger should never pull the finger.

dayman
April 11, 2012, 07:01 PM
The take away for me - or what I'd hope the take away would be in general, as I felt this way before - is that:
1) carrying a gun does not make you a police officer, and
2) there is, and should be, a difference between "stand your ground" and "follow and confront".

I agree entirely with the idea that - for a civilian - a gun is a tool to get you out of a bad situation, not a tool to allow you to walk into one.

I also agree with the idea that those gun owners that do see themselves as some sort of modern vigilantes do far more harm than good to the gun rights cause. It's always aggravating to agree on any issue with a moron.

Lastly - and I should have been more careful to copy names to cite - I agree with the poster that said he's been purposefully less aggressive since carrying. I've noticed the same thing. When I'm armed I make sure to be as non confrontational as possible. Most stand your ground protections - as well as any moral high ground - go out the window if you escalate a confrontation.

Frank Ettin
April 11, 2012, 07:02 PM
Until we know the facts of the Trayvon Martin case, we cannot apply specific tactics to the specific situation. To keep this thread from getting locked, please refrain from discussing that situation...Thank you.

You will notice that some posts are gone or edited. So just to be clear --

We are not discussing the detail of the Zimmerman matter.

We are not discussing whether or not Zimmerman did the right thing or the wrong thing.

We are not speculating about what Zimmerman did or didn't do.

We are not discussing Zimmerman's personal problems.

Even without addressing those points, this can be a useful thread. So I'm leaving it open for the time being -- if people can stay on topic.

Alaska444
April 11, 2012, 07:08 PM
I can't carry here in CA. I got a small folding knife today since every one has pit bulls running every where. I always carry a stick, but until today, had little to defend myself especially if there are more than one dogs in a group.

I don't have any pretense of being a cop. My CCW trained to evade, avoid and be a good witness first and foremost. In the gravest extreme and as a last resort, use lethal force to STOP an attack. Provoking an attack makes you the perpetrator in just about every case.

TenRing
April 11, 2012, 07:26 PM
An important thought about neighborhood watch is that if the community is not dysfunctional, every member of the community is de facto part of the watch. If someone is loitering on your neighbor's back porch and you see it, wouldn't you call it in?

I don't think organized citizen patrols are as necessary in a functional community as some indicate. If the community is falling apart at the seams, I'm moving my family to another community ASAP. I realize that everybody's situation is different but I would like to see more emphasis on what used to be called the good neighbor policy and less emphasis on neighborhood patrols.

If you live there and you have eyes and ears, you are already part of the watch. No title, gun or patrol car necessary. Just sayin'.

G1R2
April 11, 2012, 08:19 PM
As a patrotic American citizen living in a 3rd world country south of the equator for more than 30 years, I enjoy reading about your views on tactics and training. Fortunately, it appears to be a lot more peaceful sown here than up there and concealed carry is not a controversal issue here.

I have learned:

1. Treat everyone as if you are running for election and you need their vote.
2. Pray to God that you never have to kill someone, unless you have to.
3. Keep your firearm ready 24/7. You will never know when you need it.
4. Do not associate yourself with anything illegal.
5. Know what's going on around you at all times.
6. Little good happens after 10:00 pm.
7. Do not compromise your values.
8. Never show your money.
9. Mind your own business.
10. Live a modest lifestyle.
11. Speak no ill of anyone.
12. Be happy.

The above should protect you from everyone but the psycopaths and they will kill you without a second thought.

Naterstein
April 11, 2012, 08:25 PM
Agree with Aarond and OP.

Regardless of "Stand your ground" or "Castle Doctrine", CCW holders have a greater responsibility to try to avoid situations where one may have to employ their weapon(s).

FireForged
April 11, 2012, 09:21 PM
deleted

Alaska444
April 11, 2012, 09:39 PM
Actually, our condo neighborhood is one of the best in the entire city. That is why we have recently become targets for these creeps breaking in. There is an adjacent property that is most likely the source of this crime spree.

We have a very active neighborhood watch in CA that has helped keep the lid on more crime in the area. It really is up to the individual owners to secure their own property which is not that hard to do with a little bit of effort involved.

Aikibiker
April 11, 2012, 09:39 PM
Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.

Pbearperry
April 11, 2012, 09:40 PM
Never look for trouble as you will most likely find it.

Alaska444
April 11, 2012, 10:21 PM
There is a very narrow set of circumstances where you can use lethal force to STOP an attack. That set of circumstances is probably much smaller than most of us believe who carry. If you provoke a fight and then later have to use lethal force to save your life, you are very likely looking at a murder charge the way many DA's look at these issues.

With the nature of lawsuits in America, the cities and counties do look for someone to blame to remove lighting and street and police coverage from potential liability issues. Just the way it is today. The prosecution working for the city, county or state or Feds may not be completely "neutral" parties when considered from the deep pockets lawsuit mentality.

Even a neighborhood watch organization as part of a home owners association finds liability protection from finding someone criminally negligent, i.e. the shooter. That makes many conflicts of interest in cases involving all of these elements.

motorhead0922
April 11, 2012, 10:32 PM
Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.

^This.

Unfortunately, I believe that this incident will cause some people to not report suspicious behavior when it is really warranted. Let's resist the temptation to look the other way when it's not the right thing to do.

This may also cause those who normally carry to not participate in neighborhood watches. That is a loss for their neighborhoods.

I'm also glad I'm a member of Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network.

Alaska444
April 11, 2012, 10:43 PM
I don't believe that an individual's actions will put a damper on neighborhood watch groups. What drives that is home robberies.

I also belong to the Armed Citizens network and understand it is a very narrow set of conditions for self defense with lethal force. What happened or will happen in Florida only reinforces what most of us already know. Don't look for trouble, don't provoke an incident since you can be held accountable, and let the police do their job, if they will.

We had a home invasion robbery here in neighborhood a couple of months ago. When the home owner came home a few hours later, he called the cops but they never came.

We routinely have people passing through that members of the neighborhood watch actively observe and sometimes follow and circle. Sometimes they take pictures of the people that appear suspicious. The last thing a punk kid smash and grab sort of kid wants is someone to take their picture. I suspect it has helped keep the number of smash and grab robberies down from what it could have been. We have had three in the last 6 months compared to none for about 4 years.

Hiker 1
April 11, 2012, 10:57 PM
What can we learn - armed confrontation when no one is at risk is a bad idea.

Hank15
April 12, 2012, 12:17 AM
Stay in your car unless forced out of it/trapped in a corner.

Your odds of surviving a confrontation and/or trial are much better if you stay in your car.

Besides, your 3000lb car is a better self defense tool than your gun, both tactically and legally.

Hook686
April 12, 2012, 01:31 AM
I chuckle when I read this thread as some of the folks posting about the virtures of not following, nor confronting are the folks that maintain it is the right thing to do to step in if they see someone being threatened. Very odd how perceptions work.

Alaska444
April 12, 2012, 01:47 AM
Stepping in is something that must be well thought out and well executed tactically if you are going to do it. An example from one of my CCW classes is helpful.

The instructor asked what you would do if you came out of a convenience store bathroom and saw the clerk being held up in a robbery. He asked what would we do. Various answers came forth, but his was the most unexpected. He stated he would go back in the bathroom and lock the door.

This is a 20 year veteran of the Army as an MP, a certified firearms instructor noted as an international expert, a certified VIP bodyguard and an incredibly accurate shooter. The reason why was more important. If you shoot someone pointing a gun at someone else, unless you score a midbrain CNS hit with your bullet, the physiologic response to the gunshot involuntarily most of the time will be a trigger squeeze killing the clerk you are trying to protect. In such a case, you will likely be the object of a lawsuit, but probably no criminal charges.

If the criminal is already shooting, that is a different situation, but the majority of armed robberies result in no injuries. Impossible to tell which robbery will end deadly or not.

He adised to take a tactical position incase he saw you as a target as well. Intervening in the first situation may be much more problematic than most people believe. The physiologic startle reactions could end in a bad outcome for the clerk and you as well. When to intervene or not is not a settled issue in almost all situations.

I believe our first duty is to be a good witness and diffuse the situation if possible. That may mean simply taking a defensive position and seek a tactical advantage of surprise if you have to. Taking matters into our own hands is another issue altogether that we should only venture under the gravest extremes.

zincwarrior
April 12, 2012, 06:25 AM
I may be a little different than some folks, but I have found myself to be less aggressive since I started carrying a firearm on a regular basis. For instance the other day as I was driving someone started tailgating me and when I slowed to turn they gave me the “you're number one” sign. In the past I might have returned the gesture, but this time as soon as the incident occurred the first thing I thought was – you have a gun. I did not think this because I felt empowered to be aggressive, but just the opposite that I need to do my best to avoid situations that might result in me being forced to use the gun.

Good point. I have as well. As I believe any physical confrontation will escalate, its on the realization that there no longer is a middle ground for me. Its either nothing or all out. Note, I have found this does not apply to anyone messing with the family.

Having said that I seem to now attract very large unleashed dogs like fleas when I walk the little wiener dogs, but pepper spray in the adoption of my dad's old tank of a dog has helped that immensely.

Mobuck
April 12, 2012, 08:17 AM
The point I keep remembering from my CCW training is this: regardless of the aggressive action, once the aggressor walks away, you are no longer in a SD situtation. Now, if the agressor reenters the action, that puts you back into SD. Basically, even though someone has threatened you with harm(or actually harmed you), if he changes his mind/attitude and walks away, you can't shoot him in the back.
As has been said, none of us were at the scene of the conflict. Lets say that Zimmerman did follow, confront, or harass Martin. When Z walked away, that portion of the situation was over. IF Martin chased or followed Z and struck him from behind, the entire victim/aggressor situation was reversed.
The ONLY question is how that specific sequence of actions took place. Whether or not Zimmerman used poor judgement in pushing the initial contact or was foolish for making statements is secondary but is being used by the minority mouthpieces to cloud the issue.
I would love to launch into a tirade about how to alleviate the problem of "hoodies in the hood" but that would not be prudent.

bikerbill
April 12, 2012, 09:45 AM
A fascinating case ... I was under the impression, perhaps unfounded, that sanctioned Neighborhood Watch members are usually not allowed to be armed; their job is to spot trouble and call the Mounties ... I'm not sure what I've learned, since armed or not, I would never have followed Mr. Martin after alerting police and being told to back off by the 911 operator ... bad decisions usually have bad results, and since Mr. Zimmerman is now facing a murder charge, I think his actions qualify ...

mukibetser
April 12, 2012, 12:45 PM
For me, this event is a reminder that with rights come responsibilities. As gun owners, we often focus on our rights, which makes sense given that a not insignificant portion of the American electorate and our politicians would like to take certain of those rights away. However, as members of society we also have responsibilities and those responsibilities come into sharper focus when you decide to carry a gun.

People have already said it well in this thread: make an extra effort to avoid confrontation -- be pleasant, conciliatory and reasonable; if a confrontation is unavoidable, try to de-escalate and/or remove yourself from the situation if you can do so safely; as a last resort, when your life or the life of loved ones is in danger, respond accordingly. IMHO, neighborhood watch members should absolutely not be armed. Carrying a firearm does not turn you into law enforcement, and being armed while on a neighborhood watch, where your job is to observe and report, only invites tragedy.

Alaska444
April 12, 2012, 12:53 PM
Neighborhood watches are just that, but that does not preclude someone with a CCW to not be able to carry as they do everyday. Our home owners association up in Idaho is organizing a neighborhood watch because of recent robberies in the last month that we have never had in this area. Sorry, but I ain't leaving my gun at home ever. I will also not be on "patrol" like a certain person of interest lately. But when out walking and doing my usual chores, yes, I will be armed as is my right whether their is a neighborhood watch or not.

If the home owners association places that preclusion in the neighborhood watch agreements, then I won't participate as a member of the neighborhood watch.

BGutzman
April 12, 2012, 01:16 PM
he mentioned that some people think a gun empowers them to do things they would not normally do. All of us that carry ought to think carefully about that concept. Too many times a gun makes us feel "tougher" and we act more aggressively.

Im sorry I whole heartedly disagree with you on this and the concept it puts forth... When I am in CCW mode I am extraordinarly polite and I am a polite person to begin with. I am not seeking trouble or trying to bully anyone nor create any sort of situation. If and when the horrible day ever comes that I have to use deadly force under the law it will be exactly in the conditions the law expresses with no other intent but to save my own life or that of someone I may lawfully protect.

I would rather give up my seat, or walk away from a confrontation and when under arms. I let things go that might otherwise at least deserve a comment. Some young punk runs into you not paying attention, would normally get a comment of how about watching where your going or something similar... In CCW mode its simply excuse me and move away from the situation...

So no, CCW is a conflict reducer not a builder..I personally dont know of any carriers that act in the way you suggest and if I did know someone like that I would suggest that they stop carrying until they get themselves some help or just give it up all together.. I appreciate that its possible some people do as you suggest but in my experience that isnt how it is..

I will have to check with the local mall ninjas and see if they have been eyebrow beating people or what??? :rolleyes:

SauerGrapes
April 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
I may be a little different than some folks, but I have found myself to be less aggressive since I started carrying a firearm on a regular basis. For instance the other day as I was driving someone started tailgating me and when I slowed to turn they gave me the “you're number one” sign. In the past I might have returned the gesture, but this time as soon as the incident occurred the first thing I thought was – you have a gun. I did not think this because I felt empowered to be aggressive, but just the opposite that I need to do my best to avoid situations that might result in me being forced to use the gun.

This is also my way of thinking. While we have a right to defend ourselves, we also have a responsibility to act as muture adults. When carrying a weapon with such lethality, use your head!
Once the bullet leaves the barrel, you can't get it back. A gun is for life threatening situations only!

thmsmgnm
April 12, 2012, 02:10 PM
Don't bothering getting involved, mind your own business, and if you see something...why bother calling 911, it can be used against you in the future.

Be prepared to protect yourself & your family. Let everyone else to the same, and hard luck to them if they fail.

That is what I have learned.

kobes31
April 12, 2012, 02:24 PM
Thought to might add to discussion with this article/study:
http://news.yahoo.com/people-carrying-guns-may-appear-bigger-210313387.html

ronto
April 12, 2012, 02:42 PM
Just because you have a CHL does NOT make you a LEO.

cnimrod
April 12, 2012, 03:24 PM
Apologize if this study is being discussed elsewhere on the forum.
(this is actually a report about it if anyone has/knows if the actual study is published online please share)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120321152627.htm

but it addresses an interesting point the OP bought up on the issue of how carrying makes one "feel"

I read elsewhere that the study was done on subjects who were not "regular" gun users -Curious what that means and curious what those of you who do carry think

Marquezj16
April 12, 2012, 03:29 PM
My wife told me about an odd incident at our home one morning.
She just left the house to jog around the neighborhood. As she was rounding the street she saw a truck slow down next to our house. She kept jogging until she felt that something was not right so she turned around. she found a "red work truck" parked in our driveway. Then she saw a man (no discription) walking out of our back gate. she confronted the man and asked him, "Can I help you?" The guys story was that he was there to meet with "Thomas". It just so happens to be one of our neighbor's name. Well the guy left and my wife thought nothing more of it until she ran into "Thomas". Thomas did not know who the guy was but said he will keep an eye out for the 'red work truck".
When my wife told me the story that evening, I asked if she took down the license plate or had her phone with her ready to call. She did not think it was necessary because it was daytime. Rather than get upset with her, I simply stated that I'm glad she is safe. Then I asked her if it happens again, to not confront but observe and report.

9mm
April 12, 2012, 03:39 PM
Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.

Not always the case for everyone, like older people who can't or fatter people, or people like myself who are small and most people could beat up easily.

Just because you have a CHL does NOT make you a LEO.


^ This, a CCW is to defend yourself, not looking for trouble or starting trouble. Call the police and get out of there.

nate45
April 12, 2012, 05:05 PM
You're all on your own. If you need help because you are being assaulted, if someone is breaking into your home, etc, etc. Don't expect me to help, to much liability involved. Who knows my intervention might create the next causes celebres, if I it does, it will only be from defending my own life, my family, or my property.

Call me any names you like, I care not the least. I've seen with my own eyes how the 'justice' system and media work. Or do not work, whichever your view may be.

TenRing
April 12, 2012, 05:58 PM
My wife told me about an odd incident at our home one morning.
She just left the house to jog around the neighborhood. As she was rounding the street she saw a truck slow down next to our house. She kept jogging until she felt that something was not right so she turned around. she found a "red work truck" parked in our driveway. Then she saw a man (no discription) walking out of our back gate. she confronted the man and asked him, "Can I help you?" The guys story was that he was there to meet with "Thomas". It just so happens to be one of our neighbor's name. Well the guy left and my wife thought nothing more of it until she ran into "Thomas". Thomas did not know who the guy was but said he will keep an eye out for the 'red work truck".
When my wife told me the story that evening, I asked if she took down the license plate or had her phone with her ready to call. She did not think it was necessary because it was daytime. Rather than get upset with her, I simply stated that I'm glad she is safe. Then I asked her if it happens again, to not confront but observe and report.
A similar incident happened to me two years ago when I was working on a property that I rent. My guard was down because I had been working on the plumbing in the basement crawl space for a few hours and I was tired. The tenants were not home when a loud knocking came to the front door. Then the loud knocking came again. I went to the door in an agitated state of mind covered in crawl space dirt and looking like the Loch Ness monster holding some plumbing tools.

I didn't know what to expect but I didn't get a good feeling from the knocking. I was carrying a small frame .38 in a belt holster but it didn't occur to me to get it ready because I was too tired, dirty and agitated. When I opened the door, there stood a big dude on the top step of the porch looking nervous. We just looked at each other for about two seconds then he said that he was looking for somebody by a name that I didn't know. Next I noticed his partner on the driver side of a car that was backed into the driveway. My internal alarm went off because a similar thing happened to me at my house some years earlier.
The guy quickly said that he thought he had the wrong house and immediately got into the passenger side of the car and the car drove away. Later when the tenants returned home, they stated that they didn't know anyone by the description I gave and they didn't know the car.

Several things come to mind when I review this incident.

I think it was my bizarre appearance that gave this guy pause from attacking me.
My gun did not come into play because like an idiot, I didn't have it ready.
I normally consider myself alert and aware but when I'm tired, my guard goes down somewhat whether I admit it or not.
Many home invasions begin with a knock at the door.
I could have been shot as soon as I opened the door.
Before opening the door, it pays to look out a window to see what is in the driveway and how many people are there.
It doesn't hurt to look and sound like a mean S.O.B. when strangers come knocking at your door. If they turn out to be good people, you can always offer an apology later. This might be what saved my life.

R1145
April 12, 2012, 06:22 PM
Discretion is the better part of valor. Lethal force must be the last resort in the face of unavoidable threat, because even if it is decided to be justified by law, there are dire consequences for everyone involved.

Shoot if you must, avoid if you can...and do this on the basis of a split-second decision, in the dark, under stress.

Frank Ettin
April 12, 2012, 06:33 PM
It's interesting to see that some folks don't seem to see any options between "don't get involved" and "come out with guns blazing."

Folks might want to give some serious thought to ways in which you could help without necessarily putting yourself at much risk.

saands
April 12, 2012, 06:44 PM
CNIMROD:

It looks like that "study" is slated for publication in the near future ... usually journal articles are not allowed to be published by the author in other venues, so it isn't likely to be available. All that aside, it has also been shown that when people are exposed to images of a certain shape, that they find those images in other contexts ... the fact that they are having a test subject hold a toy gun simply HAS to put that image in their mind ... and all the moreso if the subject doesn't usually interact with firearms. It shouldn't surprise anyone that with that strong of a suggestion, that there would be a bias in how they perceive images. The fact, however, that the subject was also wearing shoes probably never once correlated to their identifying the objects in the pictures as shoes ... I hate to say it, but a lot of research is done with an agenda, so it is critical that we look carefully at the results and understand the limitations of the study.

I applaud your desire to see the original study ... at some point it will publish. You might contact the author and ask directly when it is due out.

Saands

Alaska444
April 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
Today, 03:05 PM #48
nate45
Senior Member

Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 3,270
You're all on your own. If you need help because you are being assaulted, if someone is breaking into your home, etc, etc. Don't expect me to help, to much liability involved. Who knows my intervention might create the next causes celebres, if I it does, it will only be from defending my own life, my family, or my property.

Call me any names you like, I care not the least. I've seen with my own eyes how the 'justice' system and media work. Or do not work, whichever your view may be.
__________________
(>_<)

Unfortunately, we truly have little justice left in America in many ways because people on juries don't follow logical conclusions as they did in the past. How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt. But that is America today. A jury of my peers would be composed of people that can act like Spock looking logically and objectively at the evidence. Anything other than that and a jury of my peers today is nothing but a frightful consideration.

You truly have to look after yourself and be very careful what you take on. Placing yourself in a situation where you have to depend on the American justice system ain't any place I ever want to be.

I do remember a news story a while back of an elderly man who was sitting in a shop when it got robbed. He had a military background of some sort if I recall the story correctly. Even though he was armed, he did not interfere with the robbers UNTIL they took him back into the bathroom. He believed at that point his life was in danger and he put a bullet in the two robbers heads killing them instantly.

No charges were filed. He showed restraint and only acted when he was taken into the back room, often an ominous sign. Tactically, he caught them by surprise because he didn't give away the fact he was carrying. In addition, there were no other people in the line of his bullets except the bad guys. If I can find that news report again, it is a true master piece of concealed carry intervention in my opinion.

saands
April 12, 2012, 07:21 PM
Oh ... I also wanted to mention that of the 10-15 people that I know who carry, I don't know a single person that acts brave or aggressive when they CCW ... on the contrary. In fact it has been my experience that when a firearm gets holstered, the typical response is enhanced civility and care to be law abiding in almost every dimension. I say "almost every dimension," because somehow none of us seem to drive any slower when we carry :p

Saands

Jeff22
April 13, 2012, 04:49 AM
So what is the proper tactical protocol for a private citizen to follow should they observe a crime in progress?

In August of this year, I will have been a police firearms instructor for 30 years. We train police officers, who are actually sworn and have the legal right to be armed off duty and make arrests, to do the following when observing some crime or potential crime off duty: OBSERVE AND REPORT. Don't follow anybody. Don't confront anybody UNLESS you are acting directly to protect somebody's personal safety. Get on your cell phone and call the ON DUTY UNIFORMED cops to come and investigate whatever situation you are observing. BE A GOOD WITNESS.

That's what ANYONE should do in a similar situation. Believe me, the on-duty police don't WANT the assistance of some clown who gets in the way and complicates the situation. OBSERVE and REPORT and let the cops do their job.

As a private citizen it is NOT your job to "take care of it myself" or "handle it my own way". The same thing is true for an off duty cop in most situations, or an on-duty cop in plainclothes. You don't carry a gun to be James Bond or Dirty Harry. You carry a gun to protect you and yours while you get on the cell phone and call for help from the police, or the fire department, or the ambulance service, or whatever . .

dayman
April 13, 2012, 07:29 AM
How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt.
On TV/movies, often. On jury duty, or from people who actually served on a jury, never.

I'll give you that we have a lot of problems with our judicial system, but jury's are still comprised of every day people - people who didn't duck their civic duty - and most people are trying to do the right thing.

I think most of the lessons learned from the situation in FL have more to do with citizenship than duties of a CCWer. Unless you're LEO - and regardless of whether you're carrying a gun - it's not your place to tail kids around, no matter how suspicious they look.
That doesn't mean we should completely ignore the world around us and take the tack that "if it's not directly effecting me, I won't do anything". I just think there's a lot of room between sitting by and watching someone get mugged, and chasing down every kid that we think looks like their up to no good.
But again, the only thing that carrying a gun effects in all that is that it does have the potential to escalate things. And if we do escalate - intentionally or not - a non violent situation into a violent/lethal one there will probably be consequences no matter what our intentions were. I think I heard that good intentions pave a road somewhere....

Double Naught Spy
April 13, 2012, 07:46 AM
Never look for trouble as you will most likely find it.

So no neighborhood watches?

zincwarrior
April 13, 2012, 07:52 AM
To play Devil's Advocate, what exactly keeps you safe if you're on a neighborhood watch? If neighborhood watch sees potential BG and calls it in, unless they immediately run/drive away they are potentially liable if attacked.

Mainah
April 13, 2012, 08:48 AM
Don't draw any conclusions about high profile cases like this until all the facts are out in the open.

Frank Ettin
April 13, 2012, 09:43 AM
To play Devil's Advocate, what exactly keeps you safe if you're on a neighborhood watch? Your exercising good judgement. Every situation is different, so there's no "cookbook" formula.

BlueTrain
April 13, 2012, 10:34 AM
To play the devil's advocate, do you allow the police in your neighborhood?

zincwarrior
April 13, 2012, 10:43 AM
Not understanding your question there.

Alaska444
April 13, 2012, 11:14 AM
Today, 05:29 AM #56
dayman
Member

Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: the Maine woods
Posts: 84
Quote:
How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt.
On TV/movies, often. On jury duty, or from people who actually served on a jury, never.

I'll give you that we have a lot of problems with our judicial system, but jury's are still comprised of every day people - people who didn't duck their civic duty - and most people are trying to do the right thing.

I think most of the lessons learned from the situation in FL have more to do with citizenship than duties of a CCWer. Unless you're LEO - and regardless of whether you're carrying a gun - it's not your place to tail kids around, no matter how suspicious they look.
That doesn't mean we should completely ignore the world around us and take the tack that "if it's not directly effecting me, I won't do anything". I just think there's a lot of room between sitting by and watching someone get mugged, and chasing down every kid that we think looks like their up to no good.
But again, the only thing that carrying a gun effects in all that is that it does have the potential to escalate things. And if we do escalate - intentionally or not - a non violent situation into a violent/lethal one there will probably be consequences no matter what our intentions were. I think I heard that good intentions pave a road somewhere....


Actually, I don't believe many people understand basics aspects of logic and are ruled in many ways by emotion and fads than by logic and thought. I was recently an expert consultant in a murder trial where the defense in my opinion went beyond resonable doubt to much evidence of innocence far beyond just doubt of the prosecutions case. When the jury found the defendant guilty, one of the alternate jurors who heard the entire case came and wept in the defense lawyers office on how wrong the jury verdict was and that he could have made a difference in the case if he had been on the jury itself.

Two of the counts were dismissed in a manner that defies logic since they were two of the counts that had the strongest evidence. Trying to reverse engineer their logic is impossible.

No, I take exception to the statement that we have true justice any longer since we now have people who can barely count or read let alone put together a logical treatise of guilt of innocence. How many people deliberating have any basic understanding of the constitution or the Bill of Rights or our basic history of jurisprudence? No my friend, God forbid I ever have to stand before a jury of my "peers." That is one of the places where justice has broken down in not being able to recognize prosecutorial misconduct and lack of police integrity in so many cases.

Sorry, but I think I would rather take my chances before a panel of judges than the current average American jury where they routinely exclude anyone that has higher education and forethought on the basic issues of the case. Just as we have dumbed down schools, we likewise have dumbed down juries. Sad, but quite true.

BlueTrain
April 13, 2012, 11:50 AM
Sheesh! No wonder people are forever arguing about the second amendment. It's too short and too the point.

When I said do you allow the police in your neighborhood, what I really meant was: Do you allow the police in your neighborhood.

Do you live in a gated community? Or do you live or think you live in a neighborhood where the police do not come or are not welcomed? In other words, from your point of view, whose side do you think the police are on. Yours or someone elses?

tipoc
April 13, 2012, 12:04 PM
Sometimes it is overlooked, but 99.9% of the time, while you are armed, you will or should do exactly the same thing you would do if not carrying a firearm.

tipoc

Cycrops
April 13, 2012, 12:24 PM
Here's a thought:

TTAG frequently recommends that if you are in a DGU situation that you should keep your mouth shut when talking to the authorities afterwards. Identify yourself, tell them that you felt your life was in danger, and that's about it.

I can't really imagine what I would do in a DGU situation in terms of speaking to the police. It seems tempting to plead your own case in the hopes that they will choose not to charge you, but it's probably smarter to say nothing and let the legal process take its course. If the circumstances clearly indicate a defensive situation, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

No matter what, I believe you should avoid confrontation if that option is available to you.

OldMarksman
April 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
Posted by BlueTrain: When I said do you allow the police in your neighborhood, what I really meant was: Do you allow the police in your neighborhood.Are you honestly under the impression that people have a lawful option to not "allow police in a neighborhood"?

Sheesh!Yep.

BlueTrain
April 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
Not necessarily lawfully, although I don't know about gated communities. But there is an awful anti-police feeling here.

zincwarrior
April 13, 2012, 01:14 PM
1. In many jurisidctions the streets, even in gated communities, are considered public.

2. I'm not seeing the benefit or capability of keeping the police out. Even if possible (images of Waco come to mind) what happens when there is a crime in the gated community? What if someone calls the police?

I'm not getting where this train of thought is at.

Frank Ettin
April 13, 2012, 01:17 PM
Enough!