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View Full Version : Need Help Identifying a Jungle Carbine.


TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 07:58 AM
Hello, I just purchased a Beautifull Jungle Carbine, I was told though that it may not be authentic, I bought it for a shooter so was not worried about that.
I purchased it from Cabellas, and was told at the Gun Library that the headspace was checked on these. On the side it says No 5 Mk 1 it has a rubber kick pad on it, and looks like it had some kind of scope mount on it because it has one tapped hole on top of the reciever, and looks like it had some kind of clamp on the stripper clip guide.
Its in what I would call very good condition.
I will edit this post in a minute, and add some pictures.
I hope it dosent have the lightening cuts in the reciever, but am not familiar with the Einfield so I came to this forum for help.
Thanks in advance.
Forgot to mention Serial Number TE0062 Still trying to upload pictures.
It does have a Bayonet Lug, and the Rear Flip up appeture sight.
Its a beautifull piece that I cant put down, and has really good Rifeling in the barrel.

madcratebuilder
April 8, 2012, 08:11 AM
Without the receiver lightening cuts it's not a No5 LE. Look for cuts at the Knoxx form and around the rear of the receiver.

Drilled and tapped for a scope hurts value as I'm sure you know.

The so called "wandering zero" the No5 is reported to suffer from is greatly exaggerated. The Brit Army did not want to get stuck with a bolt gun as the standard while the rest of the world went select fire auto. They hand picked No5's to demonstrate this so called wandering zero and played it up big time.


ETA: That Serial Number "TE0062" does not sound correct. There's a Tennessee importer that brings in some faked up No5's that uses the TE prefix a lot. Upload some pic's

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 08:23 AM
I took a few pictures and uploaded them on Photobucket, but for some reason when I go to copy them my old computer bogs down, I may have to reboot. I will keep trying, the rifle is great shape.
The people at Cabellas were very helpfull, and assured me, that if this rifle does not work properly they will repair it.
I went through a pile of rifles but I couldnt put this one down.
I believe this one is a cut down long rifle, The Rubber kick pad is well fitted with a metal frame around the outter edges.
I have a feeling that this may end up being a favorite.
The Metal is in what I believe NRA would grade 90% and the wood looks new.
The whole rifle looks new, with minimal handeling wear, a few very slight dings in the stock you need good light to see, the wood has a nice reddish color and the metal has a black parkerized look about it, except for the magazine, it apears to be blued with some old shallow pitting. where the safety hinges it has a plumb color. I may have paid too much for it at $400 but I just had to have it.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 08:39 AM
The Rear sight is graduated to 800 Yards, and under the barrel near the muzzle it is marked TGi knox TN No5 303 British UK it also has a 1942 date under the No 5 MKI on the reciever.


http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo697.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo697.jpg)





http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo696.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo696.jpg)



http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo698.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo698.jpg)

Mike Irwin
April 8, 2012, 08:49 AM
Does it say anything on the butt stock socket (metal ring behind the trigger guard) on the right side?

Mike Irwin
April 8, 2012, 08:55 AM
"also has a 1942 date"

That's an issue, I think.

Jungle Carbine production didn't start until 1944, so as far as I know all true versions should have a 1944 to 1947 date on them.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 08:57 AM
It looks like it has an upside down J on there.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 09:05 AM
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo699.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo699.jpg)





http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo701.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo701.jpg)




I believe this is a modified Long Rifle, and as I said, Im interested in using this as a shooter, I have a few more questions though, First is how to remove the bolt for cleaning, also where could I find a sling for it, and also What type of scope mount do you think was on here, and do you know where I might find one. Thanks so much, I love the advice that I get on this forum.:)






http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/th_Photo700.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Houndsman2007/?action=view&current=Photo700.jpg)

PetahW
April 8, 2012, 09:37 AM
It's been over 35 years since I've owned an Enfield JC, but IIRC, the bolt is opened partially, then the gas shield (looks like a locking lug) is rotated "up" to pass through the receiver bridge as the bolt is fully withdrawn.

.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 10:08 AM
I really like this carbine, I cant wait to shoot it.
Now I will know how to remove the bolt for cleaning.

Mike Irwin
April 8, 2012, 10:15 AM
Yep, that's a rework.

I hope they didn't sell it to you as an authentic jungle carbine.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 10:28 AM
No Sir, They didnt sell it to me as authentic, If its a remake, I will have no guilt using it. The Fit and finish on the stock and everything else is very good, It looks like it will be fun to shoot, I dont expect top accuracy out of it, but I hope it has acceptable accuracy. "3 to "4 inch 100 yards.

gyvel
April 8, 2012, 10:50 AM
Actually, if it was made up from a No. 4 rifle, it should be plenty accurate.

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 11:42 AM
I found this video, and compared mine, Mine is definately a remake, and does not have the milled off portions under the handguard, that makes me happy as I figure it will be more accurate, and a little bit of epoxie, as if someone glass bedded the acton.
Should be a fine shooter, we would go shoot, but would feel a tad guilty on Easter Sunday, we got in late last night and missed church.

Anyhow, here is a very good video that I used to compare my rifle.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4cwDD3eUP4&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL02DF2C83E7C6C2F7

James K
April 8, 2012, 07:04 PM
It is a bit hard to be sure, but the second picture sure looks like a No. 5 receiver with the extra gap under the rear sight and the sloped cuts.

TX hunter, did you remove the handguard and check the rear of the barrel? There should be cuts a bit like the flutes on a revolver cylinder.

Jim

TX Hunter
April 8, 2012, 07:46 PM
Yes I removed the handguard, it does not have the lightening cuts on the barrel, the reciever does look correct though.
I went out and shot the thing today, and discovered that it shoots extreemly left, I tapped the front sight over to the left until it was about to fall out and it still shot slightly to the left. Good thing is that it puts them all in the same place. Ran out of shells, gotta work on it when i get another box.
Drifted the sight all the way to the left with some JB Weld so it wont fall out under recoil.
Will try again next weekend.
I wish I could figure out what type of scope mount the previous owner had, Id scope it. I posted a question and a picture on the smithy forum but have not got a result though.

madcratebuilder
April 9, 2012, 08:39 AM
It is a bit hard to be sure, but the second picture sure looks like a No. 5 receiver with the extra gap under the rear sight and the sloped cuts.

TX hunter, did you remove the handguard and check the rear of the barrel? There should be cuts a bit like the flutes on a revolver cylinder.

I agree on the receiver appearing to be cut at the right rear, sure looks like a No5 cut to me.

Looking at the left side of the receiver is that a new serial number to the right of the ejector screw?

Could be a parts rifle, a No5 receiver with a shortened No4 barrel. That may explain the "shoots left" issue.

Look at the flash hider, does it have casting lines on the top and bottom. A real No5 FH well not have casting lines.

The butt stock is a modified No4, hard to tell from pic but the metal looks repro. Is the rubber butt pad soft?

The 800yd backsight is correct.

1942 would be a No4, first No5's are 1944, Faz and BSA only.

It's a nice looking rifle, get her shooting straight and enjoy.

TX Hunter
April 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
I will have to look at the serial number again when i get it back, but the flash hider appears to be seamless i cant tell if it was cast. I know its very loud, even louder than my Ruger Frontier. I think the flash hider amplifies the sound.

emcon5
April 9, 2012, 03:41 PM
Is the bolt knob hollow?

TX Hunter
April 9, 2012, 04:05 PM
Yes the bolt handle knob is hollow.

TX Hunter
April 10, 2012, 06:29 AM
I noticed that the rear appeture seems to be oriented to the left, and have looked at groups people have posted shooting left is common with this model. The good thing is that the rifle groups so with some sight manipulation the POI should be correctable. I like to tinker anyway so its no big deal. Thanks to everyone for the help.

BlueTrain
April 10, 2012, 08:31 AM
I had one of the Gibbs No. 4 rifles modified to No. 5 "style" and with a couple of reservations, they did an excellent job. The "reproduction" No. 5 had the correct type buttpad and flashhider, which were both spot on. However, the handguard was not, thought that made no difference to the shooting. It also did not have an adjustable rear sight, merely the L-type battlesight. That detracted more from the appearance than the utility, however.

While we often cringe at the thought of old military rifles that were dripping with history (if that rifle could talk!), armies often had their own rifles brought up to date, nearly always by shortening the barrels. In fact, rifles were freely modified and rebuilt when there was some need or benefit. They were getting ready to make more history.

Tikirocker
April 11, 2012, 07:32 AM
See my No5 Mk1 Serial Number Survey and FAQ thread ... for identification - first post, all your questions answered.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=52472

Tiki.

TX Hunter
April 11, 2012, 11:26 AM
Thanks for the link, from what i can tell ive got a really good fake with a definate wrong date. So that means i can make whatever i want out of it guilt free. Ofcourse the only thing im likely to do is bed the barrel and add a scope.

TX Hunter
April 12, 2012, 08:15 PM
:)
Well I Bought a different box of ammo this evening, 180 Grain Seller and Bellot.
I took the Rifle out and shot close, determined that the Battle Sight is useless unless your only a few feet away, It puts the bullets in the dirt.
But with the flip up sight, It is accurate, or in my case accurate eneough.
I had to drift the front sight all the way to the left where its hanging out, and secure it with JB Weld, but now with 18 clicks up, from the sight bottomed out, I can put a very nice group dead center of a standard sheet of notebook paper with it at a Measured 130 Yards.
I measured that distance with a Bushnell Backtracker, and from the knealing resting the Jungle Carbine on a folded up Rifle Case, on top of a picknick tabel, knealing behind it, Honest to goodness Center of paper.
Its the best target I had, I taped it to a Political Sighn.
I hate that the sights are so far off, but now that I know how to set it and adjust the sights I love the way it shoots. the Other ammo I tried was Privi Partison 150 Grain Soft Points. The 180 works nicely.
Im gonna order a neck Sizing Die, and bullet seater, and make my own ammo for it. Its a neat little carbine. Thanks for all the help guys, Im a happy Camper now, Ive got the coolest looking shooter around, and dont have to feel guilty about enjoying it.

Oh other observations, with the Seller and Bellot ammo the recoil was not as fierce, and the rifle didnt seem to be as loud, I know its strange, but it was my perception. Ive never used SB ammo before, but now I like it. Also, the Rifle fed more reliably with the FMJ ammo than it did with Soft Points. Everything worked much better, and I am all happy now.:)

Madcrate Builder , Thanks for the Compliment, She is shooting stright now, The front sight looks a little funny but it works. :)

BlueTrain
April 13, 2012, 10:40 AM
Of all the ammunition I ever fired through a .303, and I think that over the years I owned and fired six different .303 Lee-Enfields made in almost that many decades, British issue ammunition was the most powerful.

TX Hunter
April 13, 2012, 11:39 AM
Blue Train,

I would shoot that too, but its all gone, so the expensive store bought is all that left unless I reload, and ive been informed that the .303 British is should only be neck sized, and that you only get about four shots per case before it must be discarted.
I measured my fired cases with a calliper yesterday evening after firing and discovered that the shoulder had moved forward and the rest of the case swelled about .006. Which Ive been told is normal, as these rifles had oversized chambers allowing them to acomodate ammunition that may be less than perfect.
I will neck size. This rifle groups nicely, the sights are just poor due to no windage adjustment. Still I like it.

kilimanjaro
April 13, 2012, 08:42 PM
It's still a good-looking rifle and should be fun to shoot. Do get a magnet and check the flash hider on the muzzle, see if it's original steel or repro aluminum.

Might want to think about having the scope mount holes filled and then re-blue with the correct British color, what the heck, it's a fun rifle, right?

There were some No. 4s converted to No. 5, I believe for use in mountainous Cyprus in the 1950s, or by the Cyprian police after the British left.

TX Hunter
April 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
Thanks, I will enjoy the rifle, If I do use a scope it will be a no tap type.
I put a magnet to the flash hider, and it stuck. It must be real.
This is a strange piece, its so correct, except for the date, the front of the bolt is flat, the but pad is not hard, its kind of medium. Its a very good fake.
The point of aim was to the left, but the rifle groups nicely.
Ive got a feeling this will end up as one of my favorites. Its sitting right next to my 1903 A3 maby they will become allies.:)

Ignition Override
April 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
Around the mag wells of my four Enfield #4s, the metal shape of the thin frame corresponds exactly with the contour of the wood.

On both of my authentic #5s (one is from Joe Salter), the metal contour does not have the same exact shape/contour as the wood.

I don't know whether my LE #4/#5 book by Charles Stratton mentions this.
It is kind of subtle, and you wouldn't normally compare this area.
Tiki: Have you or any other guys noticed the two different contours?

TX Hunter: Without the lightening cuts, your action might be a bit stronger than with original #5s.

madcratebuilder
April 17, 2012, 07:15 AM
I put a magnet to the flash hider, and it stuck. It must be real.

Genuine flash hider is machined steel and no casting lines, most repros are cast steel with obvious casting lines top and bottom.

Keg
April 18, 2012, 02:47 AM
TX hunter....I have a reproduction #5 made by Sante Fe....

Master Blaster 2
April 18, 2012, 07:37 AM
If the rubber pad is origional it will be rock hard. Here is a replacment that I used.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=502460&catid=5833

gyvel
April 18, 2012, 08:18 PM
I have a phony "jungle carbine" made out of a No. 1 Mk III action, but the only identifying mark on it is the logo "Jungle Rifle" neatly and professionally engraved on the side of the receiver in relatively large and deep characters.

Anyone have any idea who made these? It was actually very well done.

Keg
April 19, 2012, 09:37 PM
gvel..Is Golden State or Sante Fe in small letters on barrel?

TX Hunter
April 22, 2012, 05:12 PM
Sorry It took me so long to get back to this post, HMM, on the Bottom of the barrel in small electro pencled letters it says. TGI KNDX TN No 5 303 British UK.

Keg
April 23, 2012, 03:31 PM
Tennessee Guns International....They import guns....or did import guns....

TX Hunter
April 23, 2012, 06:40 PM
That explains the marking, but the 1942 date, plus correct reciever, incorrect bolt face, and lack of lightening flutes on barrel under the hadguard ?
Its a strange bird indeed, but very nice.
I love the way this carbine carries though, man it feels good.
Its a Mistery Carbine :D

TX Hunter
April 29, 2012, 02:58 PM
I did notice something odd yesterday, It appears to have left hand rifeling ?
Opposite direction from my 03 A3 , and my Yugo. HMM ?:confused:

Tikirocker
April 30, 2012, 11:23 AM
Tiki: Have you or any other guys noticed the two different contours?

Ig,

If you are talking about the trigger guard then yes, the action cover loop of the No5 trigger guard is a rounded loop and waisted, unlike the even U of the No4 cover. This is correct, it is this way as a further lightening measure on the No5. I cover this in the FAQ section of my Survey for the No5 Mk1 at surplusrifle.

Tiki.

kilimanjaro
April 30, 2012, 11:41 PM
If it's left-hand rifling, the barrel is backwards, you'll shoot your eye out !

gyvel
May 18, 2012, 11:51 PM
gvel..Is Golden State or Sante Fe in small letters on barrel?

Neither. Other than the original Lithgow markings, all it has are the words "Jungle Rifle" deeply engraved on the left side of the receiver, and is painted with OD green paint.

It is one of the more elegantly done phonies that I have seen, as it more closely resembles a real jungle carbine than some of the others done on No. 1 actions.

Seeing as how it was done on a Lithgow, I was wondering if it was some kind of Australian commercial venture from the 60s or 70s.

Tikirocker
May 19, 2012, 02:30 AM
Seeing as how it was done on a Lithgow, I was wondering if it was some kind of Australian commercial venture from the 60s or 70s.

No ...

Tiki.

Ignition Override
May 21, 2012, 01:06 AM
Tikirocker:

The area is smaller than I suggested. My memory was faulty. When you look directly at the small area of the screw, just Forward of the magwell, the metal edge of the #4 follows the exact outline/shape of the wood.

This is not the case with either of my original "Jungles". Put one of each side by side and you will see the difference.
My previous description stated that the difference was along the full contour of the magwell, but I had forgotten.

It is really subtle, because that small metal area barely Forward of the magwell is not something that people normally compare, and it was strange that it was noticed.