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ltc444
March 29, 2012, 09:15 AM
A 911 caller was arrested after Pasadena, CA Police shot an unarmed man.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/11-caller-arrested-after-california-cops-shoot-dead-alleged-armed-robber/#comment

The story got me thinking on how to avoid being shot when you encounter police. Following are some thoughts:

1. Be calm. If the cops think you are armed they won't be calm.
2. Follow instructions.
3. All movements on your part should be slow and deliberate IAW the police instructions.
4. If the cops are confused/indecisive passively take control and lead them to the point were they conclude that you are not a threat.
5. Make all movements "SLOW AS LASSES IN WINTER".

slow944
March 29, 2012, 09:39 AM
My thoughts exactly. Until I can prove to the police that I'm harmless, I'm not reaching for anything but sky.

Patriot86
March 29, 2012, 09:44 AM
Some LEO's might find it offensive what I am about to say but I follow these rules when dealing with police officers. Talk slowly and softly, nothing that could be considered threatening. NO sudden movements, any movements (such as show me your drivers license) done very slowly; keep hands visible at all times and open palmed.

If it is dark and you have a cell phone, flash light, anything DARK or for that matter silver JUST DROP IT. better to break your phone than get NYPD'd

Carne Frio
March 29, 2012, 11:18 AM
Civility and politeness always, when dealing with the men in blue.
Cris Rock made a great comedy sketch that explains the concept.
WARNING for language.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs

plouffedaddy
March 29, 2012, 12:30 PM
I'm a former police officer and the biggest thing I can tell you is keep your hands out in the open where the officer can see them.

Vermonter
March 29, 2012, 01:56 PM
Follow instructions. If they tell you to do the hokie pokie do the hokie pokie. It is not up to anyone to lead the poliece to any conclusion. Answer any question asked with the truth and move on. When I encounter the police I will most likely be armed therefore I will inform them of that correctly.

Everyone goes home when everyone listens.

Kind Regards, Vermonter

Young.Gun.612
March 29, 2012, 05:14 PM
As a LEO, a good majority of the people you deal on a daily basis with are scumbags

Good to know law enforcement feels that way...

Mobuck
March 29, 2012, 05:25 PM
Maybe just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.
I am NOT a dirt bag, dope dealer, or miscreant and I DO expect to be treated with the respect due any lawabiding US citizen.

Fishing_Cabin
March 29, 2012, 05:50 PM
Generally in a given shift in law enforcement, talking about dispatched calls, searching for suspects, or witnessed crimes, an officer will deal with many of the same people, doing the same or similar crimes, or at least it is true in the small town where I work. These people range from not that good, to pretty bad (not to get in to controversial terms).

During a shift, an officer will also deal with the regular upstanding citizens when he/she is out and about, whether it is on meal break, stopping for coffee, during some traffic enforcement/investigation, and during some calls.

Being that the job description is 'law enforcement', it is proper that the officer generally be around those doing the crimes, and try to catch and enforce the laws, but also spend time, though smaller with those reporting the crimes. It is only my experience here, but it takes more time to find/catch the bad guys/gals, then it does to take the initial report.

Unless you, meaning the person the officer is interacting with, is readily known to the officer, he/she will be on guard, cautious, and watching not only you, but others around. Im going to try to word the next part delicatly. When you deal with people, even good folks who the officer has known for years are not 'always trusted' in that, the officer in uniform is not only a person, but a representitive of the government, and as such is a target in some ways. A percentage of good people can be pushed to the edge, and a smaller percentage of them may go over the edge in a bad way.

Many on this forum have spoke about how they need to be prepared and ready because criminals are out there. People tend to forget that the officer is prepared because he/she knows the same, or that the officer should have some magic sense to tell him/her that the person they are dealing with is good or bad.

If you are detained, temporarily or otherwise, be as respectful while the officer does whats required/needed, as you would if the officer was doing business with you in some other manner. Meaning, dont try to tell the officer how to do his job, because I doubt most people would enjoy being told how to do their job either. If you feel you are wronged, fight it in court, not on the street. Respect goes along ways.

Mobuck
March 29, 2012, 07:54 PM
Courts don't help YOU if you're already dead.

saands
March 29, 2012, 08:18 PM
I'm not LE, but I spent several years in the Fire Department and from listening to the scanner, I was AMAZED at the percentage of license checks that came back suspended or revoked or attached to outstanding warrants ... it isn't that law enforcement FEELS that they deal with a lot of trouble makers, it is a FACT. It isn't personal and they don't think that everyone is a criminal, but a disproportionately high percentage of the people that they DEAL with are.

FWIW, when I get stopped, my hands are both on the wheel where they can be easily seen by the officer. It's "Yes officer," "No officer," "I'm not sure officer" and "The registration is behind the seat, officer, would you like me to get it for you?" How difficult is that?

I'm sure that not all LEOs are great guys, but my experience is that most of them are at least good guys. That being said, I know from talking to a few that they do an attitude check in the first 3 seconds they interact with you and it all flows from there ... cop a 'tude and it won't be any fun at all. Profiling and stereotypes get a bad rap in today's PC world, but they come from experience and people with attitudes tend to cause LEOs trouble ... I just can't blame them if they react when provoked by disrespect.

Saands

plouffedaddy
March 29, 2012, 08:30 PM
...

zxcvbob
March 29, 2012, 08:43 PM
This is simple
Follow instructions. If they tell you to do the hokie pokie do the hokie pokie. It is not up to anyone to lead the poliece to any conclusion. Answer any question asked with the truth and move on. When I encounter the police I will most likely be armed therefore I will inform them of that correctly.

Everyone goes home when everyone listens.

Unless your gun is in the holster on your belt and they tell you to "drop the gun" or "hand over the gun". (that's a trap) Do not put your hands anywhere near the gun even if they tell you to.

Glenn Dee
March 30, 2012, 12:06 AM
In my experience as a police officer most of the people I dealt with were decent people who just needed some help with what ever problem brought us together. After what ever interaction... most people thanked me. Part of being a good cop is being able to tell the difference between a person in some sort of emotional distress, and someone up to no good.

IMO it is the tactical responsibility of the officer to act in his own safety, the safety of other officers, the safety of the public at large, and even toward the safety of the wrondoer. Again I relied on tactics as best I could. I've disarmed quite a few people. Most of the time they drop the gun when asked. when stepping to an individual, or group I SUSPECT of being armed I always challanged from a position of cover, or ambush.

My advice is to treat an officer the same way you want to be treated. If it's an armed confrontation... as the officer gives you instructions... repeat those instructions out loud as you follow them.

GM2
March 30, 2012, 01:44 AM
Maybe just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.

Really :confused: :confused:

BlueTrain
March 30, 2012, 05:48 AM
I grew up in a small town at a time when policemen wore white shirts and had a decidedly easy-going attitude. That was 50 years ago. The town is even smaller now (I moved away) but I was alarmed to discover the crime rate there is higher than it is where I live now in a suburb of Washington, DC. Do you suppose that was always the case or have things changed? Was the idea of a peaceful small town where nothing ever happened a myth?

I don't see how a policeman could have an easy-going attitude now, though all I have had personal interaction with have been nice and professional. But judging from just what I've read in this forum, if you will allow me to say so, policemen have to deal with people who think they are law-abiding, God-fearing, church-going, conservative patriots but who are in fact arrogant, racist, anti-authoritarian, reactionary and maybe just a little bit conceited. But then, practically everyone in Virginia and South Carolina is conceited. North Carolina has a little more humility. Anyway, and those are just the good guys.

plouffedaddy
March 30, 2012, 06:21 AM
Oh snap! :D You just called out two states... Where's my popcorn :D

iamdb
March 30, 2012, 06:32 AM
But then, practically everyone in Virginia and South Carolina is:eek: So your a glass half empty kinda guy.

BlueTrain
March 30, 2012, 07:50 AM
Okay, for those of you who are not from Back East, here's the original expression:

North Carolina is a vale of humility between two mountains of conceit.

I live in Virginia, the same state where my father was born. My wife and her father were born in the District of Columbia and have no idea what I'm talking about.

But to return to the topic at hand, do people think policemen may have changed since we were kids in the 1950s? Or did we change?

MLeake
March 30, 2012, 08:15 AM
I think part of it is that, just like TV news tends to focus on the scary, illicit, and dangerous (because that drives up ratings), that people tend to have sharper memories of events that went badly than of those that went well.

I think there are anthropological and psychological reasons for that, based on long term survival of the species (Danger! Beware!), but I will leave that argument to Glenn E Meyer to dissect.

My point being, though, that I suspect humans are geared to have stronger memories of negative interactions - hence, "it only takes a few bad apples."

I have a lot of LEO friends. Of those LEOs I only met in passing - and there have been many - most were good people. But, of the ones I met in passing, the two who made the sharpest impression were bullies, who had reputations among the high school and college crowd in my area as bullies.

As a percentage, these guys were a small minority. Their emotional impact, though, was disproportionate.

aparootsa
March 30, 2012, 08:29 AM
just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.

Acting on this attitude (from your first post) is the quickest and most reliable way to get to the situation in your second post:

Courts don't help YOU if you're already dead.

Generally if "the fuzz tries to murder you" there's a pretty good reason for it. There are rare instances of officer chasing down innocent individuals and killing them in cold blood, but it's more common by several orders of magnitude for officers to kill someone who either (1) is armed and aggressive or (2) somehow presents a perceived immediate threat.

Most of us on this thread are talking about how to avoid the second one, since that's how innocent people get killed.

BlueTrain
March 30, 2012, 09:52 AM
Of course the TV news focuses on the scary and tragic. It always has. Anything else is not news. But one thing that has changed is 24-hour news. Think of it: news all day long. But there isn't enough news to go around, in a manner of speaking. So you live in Florida and hear about school bus accidents in Oregon. It is information overkill.

However, just as we might remember bad things it is just as likely we remember the good things and overlook the bad. That's called looking at the past through rose colored glasses and I see evidence of that all the time here. Things were grand and glorious at some point in the past and it's been downhill ever since. The question is merely whether the year was 1910, 1928, 1957 or 1965.

Fishing_Cabin
March 30, 2012, 09:56 AM
But to return to the topic at hand, do people think policemen may have changed since we were kids in the 1950s? Or did we change?

Bluetrain,

Police officers have changed alot since the 1950's. What people sometimes seem to forget is that the officers are roughly a cross section of the community (that can pass the background, etc). Back in the 50's officers I understand were more easy going, and relaxed. The officers had respect, and gave respect. The 60's brought up alot of riots and unrest that kind of turned one group (demonstrators/rioters) against the other group (officers), and it was done regularly during this time. Also, the 60's brought a questioning of authority that still stands to this day in ways. Locally back in the 70's is when we had alot of officers killed, these officers I mention, were all shot and killed on duty.

That changed a good bit of things. Many of the officers then were korean and vietnam vets, as well some local folks who due to age were between the drafts, or were uneligible to be drafted. When these officers were killed, the other officers became more safety concious and also more forceful.

I could go on and on, but I think both sides have changed, both for good and bad in some ways.

This is just my opinion, so feel free to enjoy your own. May the force be with you in your universe, and have a by golly wonderful day!!! :)

rem44m
March 30, 2012, 11:35 AM
@Carne Frio


Thank you! You made my day, I can't stop laughing! :D

BlueTrain
March 30, 2012, 01:22 PM
I suppose it is wishful thinking to imagine that things only changed recently. Things are always changing. I hope that remembering the police when we were small as friendly and helpful, and maybe even easygoing, is not a figment of our memories. It's really hard to say.

But you're correct about the events since then and how they affected attitudes, not just those of the police. It does not follow, however, that everyone's attitude towards the police changed. That's equally hard to call. Whether or not officers are more representative of the community or a cross section of the community is an arguable point. I have my doubts but it probably depends a lot of which community we speak of. In more expensive parts of the country, policemen often actually live outside of the community they work in. That has not gone unnoticed but it certainly makes you wonder about just how much of a cross section there really is. I don't imagine there have ever been many rich policemen, however, Burke's Law notwithstanding.

HALL,AUSTIN
March 30, 2012, 01:53 PM
I had a situation when I was about 15 where the police were called. 6 friends and I were playing airsoft and the police were called. They showed up, saw our guns and in turn drew theirs. I slowly put my plastic slinger on the ground, took 3 steps back, and laid down with my fingers laced on the back of my head. All my friends did the same. We were frisked, and I notified them that I had an airsoft pistol in my tac vest, it was removed and then the boys in blue and the laugh of their lives.

They told us that they recieved a call saying that multiple people armed with "machine guns" were running around shooting at eachother. One of the police even shothis leg with my pistol. They told us to go home and play in the woods next time. I learned two things from that.
1. Remain calm and do EXACTLY as you are told.
2. Don't ever, ever assume that someone knows an airsoft gun is not a real gun.

Willie Sutton
March 30, 2012, 10:33 PM
Just an observation for LEO's:

Don't refer to the public as "civilians": Unless you serve in the military, YOU are a representative of civil authority, and are very much a civilian too.

The "them and us" barrier needs to be dropped if you want to earn the respect of the public. Don't build an emotional fence keeping you away from the people you serve. Thinking and saying publicly "civilians" brings you to the mindset that you are not a civilian but somehow have a different set of rules to follow. And never forget that you serve US, not the other way around. Show respect to gain respect.



Willie

.

Fishing_Cabin
March 31, 2012, 04:18 AM
Just an observation for LEO's:

Don't refer to the public as "civilians": Unless you serve in the military, YOU are a representative of civil authority, and are very much a civilian too.

The "them and us" barrier needs to be dropped if you want to earn the respect of the public. Don't build an emotional fence keeping you away from the people you serve. Thinking and saying publicly "civilians" brings you to the mindset that you are not a civilian but somehow have a different set of rules to follow. And never forget that you serve US, not the other way around. Show respect to gain respect.

Willie

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really am not. But after reading your post on this thread, and rereading my own post in the thread as well, I dont see where I am putting up the "them and us' barrier" nor have I mentioned "civilians." I mentioned that I am a police officer, as well as one other person here said they were an offficer, and one other poster here mentioned he was a previous officer, and thats all I saw mention of being in law enforcement. I also stated some personal opinions and experience in the best way I could think to word it at the time.

I have tried the best I could to avoid the issues you mentioned when I composed my post, I have tried to also participate, and join in on the discussion, instead of being in a fence away from the issue. I have also been trying to give respect as well.

As an officer, I have conciously tried to remove this barrier in my professional business with the general public as well. As yet, the "them and us" barrier still exists since others still see this line when I try to communicate with them honestly, and doing my best to remove any barrier that I am able.

Perhaps you can shed some light on where I went wrong?

Not really trying to pick you out, since you probably are grouping all officers in a group. I try to break through these wall/barriers/fences/etc, but no matter in what way, or how hard I try, they remain.

Please no offense intended at all. Just honest discussion

deguello
March 31, 2012, 06:22 AM
There are definitely things I don't like about the way policing is done now in the "modern age", but it's mostly political and institutional complaints and nothing to do with the people doing the job. Even so, I can't believe that there's actually people here who think cops are gonna try to trick you into making the wrong move just so thay can get a chance to shoot you. I really hope that was just trolling.

Mobuck
March 31, 2012, 06:46 AM
We recently voted in a new county Sheriff which seems to have changed the outlook of the organization. No more black BDU's and drogleg holsters. Now the deputies are wearing white, blue, or brown uniform type shirts and khakis or jeans.
I know the new Sheriff personally, know his Dad, went to school with his wife, and know some of the deputies personally(same with old one, too). The Gestapo look is gone. My daughter was a dispatcher for the old department and I had lots of info on their practices which I wasn't too happy with. A couple of the older deputies lost their position and that was probably a good thing since I think they were having more control over the operation of the unit than the old Sheriff.
The local police chief is very selfcentered and egotistic-thinks he is better than everyone else. I wouldn't trust him to "do the right thing" if another way suited his purpose. I caught him running a STOP sign a while back for no reason other than he was in the city cop car and knew no one would correct him. I won't say he would shoot a person outright but I would not get in the way of his agenda unless I really wanted to find out.

manta49
March 31, 2012, 07:46 AM
I am not sure about america but here a police officer got his pistol out of his holster without good reason he could be reported. Stopping and approaching a car would not be geed reason. Unless you put an officers life in danger then i don't see that he would have a reason to shoot you. Not falling his instructions is not a good reason.

Grant D
March 31, 2012, 08:01 AM
When I get pulled over I roll down the window and put my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2 with my license and CHL in my hand, and it's yes sir, or no sir to their questions.
Officer Fishing Cabin: as a "civilian" I thank you for your service,and every other LEO that puts their life on the line every day for me, and thank you for your rational coments on the subject.
There's a lot of discussions on here about how to get out of a bad situation,and I guess people forget that we can run away,but the LEOS have to run towards it! I thank Peace Officers for their service, just as I thank combat veterns. They both put their lives on the line every day for us.

giaquir
March 31, 2012, 08:48 AM
I used to do a good amount of traveling up
and down the Maine turnpike early in the am
(from Mass to Bangor then up the Airline to Calais).
I got stopped many times.
One thing I do is always turn map lights and
the dome light on and it gets appreciated.
ron

Willie Sutton
March 31, 2012, 09:19 AM
I was not making reference to any poster here when I made my "civilian" comments, certainly not to the gentleman who replied above, and a private message was sent expressing this. All I was doing was to comment on the militarization of policing: Put a guy in a military type uniform, issue him a "carbine", and then tell him that anyone could be a terrorist and we have a police state. It's more true in some places than in others: prudence dictates that I expect it to be "worse" and not "better" when I come into contact with an unknown LEO. Show respect to gain respect: That's a two way street.


Willie

.

zxcvbob
March 31, 2012, 11:34 AM
There are definitely things I don't like about the way policing is done now in the "modern age", but it's mostly political and institutional complaints and nothing to do with the people doing the job. Even so, I can't believe that there's actually people here who think cops are gonna try to trick you into making the wrong move just so thay can get a chance to shoot you. I really hope that was just trolling.

That's exactly what happened in Las Vegas as people were evacuating a Costco a year or two ago. I doubt that the trap was intentional, but not sure that matters now to Erik Scott or his surviving family.

Fishing_Cabin
March 31, 2012, 12:21 PM
Willie,

No offense taken or meant. You actually brought up a couple of good points with your post, which was why I ask in a way "how to bring down the wall" so to speak. As an officer its a constant battle, not only to ensure that you dont misspeak and alienate some folks by pure accident, but also to keep that wall/barrier/etc down to as small as possible. While I do understand your point of the Us vs them, the flip side is of a regular person dealing with an officer is the fear of an officer due to the officer's enforcement powers. I hope you and others understand both sides as I do.

In closing though, I do enjoy a friendly debate, took no offense, and did not intend any toward you. Sometimes its great to have a friendly chat on "how to do things" and get other ideas...No harm

The best to you and others on this forum.

Enjoy the wonderfully warm, brightly sunny, and incredibly awesome day! :)

Glenn Dee
March 31, 2012, 01:57 PM
Again... I'd advise folks to speak to the police as you would want then to speak to you. One reason the police refer to non police as civilians because the police organzations are considered quasi-military. Quasi-Military to insure order and discipline within the organization.

Of course the police are a civil authority, and when compared to the US military are civilians.

As a retired officer after many years I find it increasingly difficult to deal with the modern American Police officer. They seem to have a different mindset, and mission statement than when I was on patrol. It seems that the police try to wear the most intimidating uniforms, and equipment they can find. It seems the put officer safety ahead of public safety and public order. It seems that a friendly helpfull attitude has been replaced with sullen, threatening, and negative attitude with no reguard for the CIVILIAN they are dealing with. They seem to put the welfare of an animal ahead of a human (police dogs). K-9 Officer? whaaa?? how do they get the dog to swear an oath?

Sorry I didnt mean to go off on a rant.

BlueTrain
March 31, 2012, 03:01 PM
There is such a variety of police departments across the country that it is hard to generalize. The County Sheriffs seem to be entirely different in every way. In fact, they tend to even dress differently. Ironically, there is a world-wide trend for the police everywhere to dress roughly the same, with all blue uniforms. The police in some places traditionally wore green, for instance.

I never thought of local police departments as being quasi-military. They don't look like and they don't act like it. Curiously, no one has mentioned so far, I think, the various state police departments. They are often very much quasi-military. In some places, the state police office is referred to as a barracks and they do tend to be used as the governor's police reserve, in a manner of speaking. But you would still behave the same way no matter who stopped you.

I've heard policemen use the expression "citizen."

Willie Sutton
March 31, 2012, 05:33 PM
"One reason the police refer to non-police as civilians because the police organzations are considered quasi-military'


That's the problem: THEY consider themselves to be quasi-military when in fact they are civil *servants* serving the *citizens* who pay the bills.

Two observations, from two different viewpoints:

(1): We the citizens don't think so well of being policed by people who think even partially that they are "military" and we are "civilians". We're all on the same side here (or ought to be).

(2): We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either... you're a civilian unless you are bearing arms against *foreign enemies* or preparing to do so, and work for the DOD. Even the Coast Guard are "civilians". Department of Homeland Security does not count either.


Way too many patrol-car commandos these days with departments that are spending DHS grant money on (fill in the blank and add "tactical" to every word in the advertisements that they read). That brings out the mindset that they are soldiers, not just patrol cops. Us v/s Them... a story as old as the first guy who had more power than the guy next to him.



Willie

.

BlueTrain
April 1, 2012, 05:33 AM
You may be right (far right, maybe) but is it the fault of the police?

We have had the tendency over the last few decades to describe things as "wars," when they are merely social and sometimes law enforcement objectives or programs. From the war on poverty (we lost) to the war on drugs (we also lost), everything is called a war.

If all of those things are wars, who's the enemy? Maybe it all started when we called real shooting wars "police actions." What a twist!

Personally, I still don't see it in our local police departments and I think you are mostly overstating your case.

Fishing_Cabin
April 1, 2012, 05:41 AM
deleted

Willie Sutton
April 1, 2012, 09:35 AM
"We have had the tendency over the last few decades to describe things as "wars," when they are merely social and sometimes law enforcement objectives or programs"


Precisely.

The real thing that someone like me finds frightening is the difference between departments. Where I live I wave at my local LEO's on the road, have helped them at first aid scenes, and generally greet everyone with a smile. If I am pulled over I know it's for a social call mixed with the news that my brake light is out. All good.

Then I go to California and am sitting in my rental car in the parking lot of a hotel near the airport at 10:00PM, wrapping up my GPS cord before going into the lobby to check in for a nap before an early flight out. Without warning two police cars, with 4 guys pull up in front and in back of my car, jump out, weapons drawn, and proceed to carry out what can only be described as a felony stop. No chance for me to produce my (military) ID, or answer any questions. handcuffed, tossed into a car after having my pockets turned inside out, and then watch my car be disassembled, my wallet stripped, my iPhone searched of it's email and text messages, all of the photos on my iPhone looked at, and basically violated in every way. When it was all done (and I had the shift sergent standing there in front of me, with a pocket copy of the US Constitution in my hand that was reading from), his answer was "Well, you are a white guy in a nice car sitting in ther parking lot of a hotel on the wrong side of the freeway... this is a high crime area and we wanted to know whet you were doing here"..

Interestingly enough, the photo that was on the screen of my iPhone when it was returned was of my holding a Colt SAA out in the desert that I had taken a month before this. It was 200 photos back from the end of the photos, so they had looked at every one and concentrated on this one. Lesson learned there... always have your phone on "lock" so nobody can pick it up and rifle thru your personal text messages, emails, and pictures "under color of law". My wife seriously thought about suing for invasion of her privacy for them looking over some photos of her that she had sent me to encourage me to come back home sooner... you can well imagine what they looked like.. :cool:

It's obvious that some departments are OK and others are simply enforcing their idea of a police state upon us. The lesson I learned from this stop is to trust no LEO that I come into contact with, and that you can be tossed into jail for essentially nothing. If I had been legally transporting that Colt SAA with me in my suitcase to be checked as baggage to go home with me, I am CERTAIN that I would have been arrested for no reason at all. No doubt, zero... these guys were doing their very best to make an arrest.


Bottom line: I was in genuine Condition White, rolled down my window with a smile, said "What's up, Officer" and was held at gunpoint and was traumatized and terrified. I'm a fighter pilot, BTW... not much scares me. I have NEVER been threatened by any criminal like I was threatened by those who had "to protect and serve" painted on their car.


I'm in condition Orange now every time I interact with a cop. They taught me this, not anyone else. If you are a LEO and you read this, know full well why guys like me want nothing to do with you. We can't tell the good ones from the bad. The only prudent choice when confronted with the unknown is to consider all of you to be bad. Sure I'll be polite... I'll also be terrified.



Willie


.

Cascade1911
April 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
The County Sheriffs seem to be entirely different in every way.

Interesting that. Might it have something to do with the Sheriff being an elected official rather than a political appointee? A while back the county I grew up in tried to move from a county sheriff to police department. Thankfully the voters didn't fall for it.

asm3686
April 1, 2012, 10:45 AM
Interesting that. Might it have something to do with the Sheriff being an elected official rather than a political appointee? A while back the county I grew up in tried to move from a county sheriff to police department. Thankfully the voters didn't fall for it.

In my area id take the local police over the sheriffs anyday. The police are respectful and the sheriffs all have little man syndrome and its just annoying.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

BlueTrain
April 1, 2012, 11:24 AM
Fairfax County, Virginia, has had a police department only since about 1940 but there's still a sheriff. But I wouldn't call the chief of police a political appointee. They are recruited, often nationally, as law enforcement administrators. They are hired, not exactly appointed, and by elected county officials. I don't know which system produces the better results but it might depend on what results you are looking for. Some sheriffs get bad press any more.

CaptainObvious
April 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
Uh-oh, this is another one of those threads which pick apart and criticize the actions of police officers. Usually the moderators shut these things down fast, but not so fast. Please allow me a chance to counter these overly critical remarks.

First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals. There is a selection process which includes testing and intensive interviews. There is a myth that you have to know someone to get on this force, but that is just a myth. The fact is you still have to pass all that testing to get on. Once you are aboard, the selection process is not over. There is the academy and then the probabation period which not everyone makes it through. Your first three years aboard you are very carefully watched and the Chief can send you packing VERY QUICKLY. Just try showing up late for work or get caught off your game and you are gone just like that.

Second, managing a law enforcement agency is one of the toughest jobs to have out there. Before you become critical of their decisions then ask yourself if you can do better. Most people simply cant do any better and the decisions being made are actually the best ones which could be made.

Third, there is no officer out there who makes commission. Believe me, they dont want to do extra work like the next guy. If you find yourself being pulled over, questioned or searched then there is a reason. Most of the time you only hear one side of the story, but if the officers could talk freely then they would enlighten you on the other reasons. Remember, there are two sides to every story. I authored a thread in this forum telling you exactly how to behave and what to say during these moments. Basically, stand still, say nothing, obey orders and verbally state to the officers you do not want to be searched. I wouldnt focus on the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, but focus on your behavior at the time. Stay still, stay silent, dont answer questions and vocally object to any searches which are being performed.

Fourth, the initial post of this thread is about the shooting in Pasadena. Lets keep in mind that none of that would have happened if the person involved did not run from the Police. If they had followed my simple strategy outlined previously then they might be walking free right now.

BlueTrain
April 1, 2012, 02:33 PM
In this thread the police are criticized for doing thing that in other threads the police in other countries, especially the U.K., are criticized for not doing.

ScottRiqui
April 1, 2012, 07:32 PM
First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals.

I'm not really sure how to fairly compare apples to apples, but consider that the NYPD alone outnumbers the active-duty SEAL community by more than ten to one.

Willie Sutton
April 1, 2012, 07:37 PM
Not to mention that we don't see too many slothful SEAL's here hanging around the Dunkin Donuts.. :rolleyes:

To say that hiring and retention standards in LEO positions is, err... "highly variable" is accurate. To say that selection and retention standards in the Navy is highly standardized and rigorous is also accurate. There's no comparison possible between the two. I've never seen a fat or poorly educated or just plain angry or lazy or incompetent or overtly hostile SEAL (Bearing in mind that I work with them professionally).

LEO's? Uhh.... don't get me started. We've all seen it.


Smile guys...



Willie

.

Pbearperry
April 1, 2012, 07:57 PM
I belong to several forums and these type of topics come up all the time.I don't understand all these traffic stop stories.I have been driving for 46 years and have been stopped twice last time 40 years ago.I have to make a guess that many people who belong to gun forums drive like complete idiots?Or maybe they are just keyboard Ninjas?:cool:

ScottRiqui
April 1, 2012, 08:01 PM
I've probably been stopped 8 or 9 times over the last 25 years, mostly for traffic infractions. Every time, the officers have been polite and professional, so I can't believe that's totally a coincidence.

Willie Sutton
April 1, 2012, 08:30 PM
I think it's highly variable based on location. In both NJ and WI, where I've lived for years, I have never had a problem. In Inglewood CA, however, going into a Hotel and minding my own business the night before a business flight, I saw deep into the maw of a system that could absolutely destroy someone, with what can only be described as completely lawless behaviour that flies directly into the face of the Constitution. That disparity is what completely changed everything for me.

The reason people run from cops is because they are fearful. Some might be fearful of what they have done... some might be fearful for what the cops have done to them previously without reason or with poor reason. Until I was victimized, and there is no other word for it, I would never have believed it was true. But now... no more. No more condition white when I interact with LEO's for me, sorry.... my security requires that I treat every encounter as if they are going to take away my freedom. Treat "the civilians" as the enemy and you alienate them forever. It only takes once. It sticks for life.



Willie

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Fishing_Cabin
April 1, 2012, 09:34 PM
To all of you..

While I do understand some of the stories and issues, I, as for myself, got in to law enforcement because I had a bad experience once. Its not worth going in to here, but it lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, I could do something better, and have an impact, however so small.

While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure. While it is true that some law enforcement agencies do define theirself as one of the two of the above, choosing a title for the structure leads to, in itself, kind of grouping or setting itself apart from the other sections of the community. The choice of title, or wording of it is above my pay grade at this moment, so I have little choice in it. Many agencies though use the terms losely as a way to define their structure of rank, no more, no less. Some tend to carry it farther. My agency does not use a term for the structure of rank, other then to define in definition what each rank is, and their function/role in the agency. As with any title or rank though, there are those who feel that it does not apply, is if offensive because of their personal service, or is of less importance because it is not a "real military rank earned" and other similar trains of thought. This is not only limited to the typical ranks in law enforcement such as sgt, lt, capt, etc, but I have also seen it up north when visiting a friend. While visiting my friend this time, I had the, umm, pleasure to learn how an elected commissioner felt it was wrong/dis-service/unethical/etc that a law enfocement leader to be titled a police commissioner. I am sure that some indian tribes may object to the term "Chief" being used in law enforcement and fire service, since neither of these have a recognized or historical tribe. I also know many commissioned military officers who have a huge problem, to put it in a small fashion, that police are called "officers" as well, since they are not commissioned in the military, trained as such, as well as serving as such. Even the term "sworn" I have been "politely" told at times is offensive since it was not "sworn in" in the military sense. In law enforcement the term "sworn" and "unsworn" generally merely describes job duties, and the information available to the person. It shouldnt matter whether its protecting the country as a whole, or a section as small as a local community, or doing just any job/career at all. I could go on but there is little need. I dont care what term or definition, someone will object to it in time.

Dont get me wrong, I am the son of a LtC, and have had family over seas in various ways for years, since before I was even born over the years. One was a even POW. We are all equal in that we serve the better good of our country as a whole.

I do understand the "fear," as it is always a part of my life, in and out of uniform. I lost a couple of friends when they found out I started rookie school years back, who still avoid me to this day, for no other reason. I have other friends/family who act differently toward me noticably when I am in uniform, vs, out of uniform. They speak to me that it is the fear they have of the enforcement aspect. I even have one friend who is a medic, that refuses to take a meal break together when our shifts match up. He says its "uncomfortable" but both of our families do many things outside of our work, and even go out for lunch dinners, cookout together, ball games, etc. The mere difference of the uniform changes things though. Even dealing with the others in the community, I get the tired old "your one of them" type comments no matter how hard I try to keep things equal.

As to the "slothful seals" comment...While growing up the proud son of my father who served and retired as a LtC, I have had my share of many veterns who claim that, for which they are not. Whether seal, ranger, etc, Ive seen my share. The few military members that have "been there, done that" never discuss it, or at least in my experience. It wasnt until a funeral of my great uncle did I learn his service, and his confinement as a POW. It was never mentioned in any way before. My own family members never would acknowledge that they actually served and did their best to move on and avoided anything related to the issue. While I do not serve the country as a whole, I do serve a segment. My service is humble, and while I respect everyones service, small, or large, perhaps we can all be more humble. I am thankful for everyones service, and I am sure they are thankful for my own. Lets try to treat us as an individual person and not a group.

Bless, and pray for those who serve, no matter in what way they do indeed serve.

Willie Sutton
April 1, 2012, 10:32 PM
That's a thoughtful answer, and is received in the spirit that it was sent. I'll just comment on this:


"While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure."


What follows is a simple legal fact: There are two "powers" in the United States: Military, and Civil.

Military is the Department of Defense. Period. Their mission is to defend us against external enemies. Nothing more, nothing less.

All others are Civil. The FBI, State Police, Local Police Departments, etc.. they are civil authorities. Those who staff them are civilians. Officer, dispacher, all of them. They are US, they represent US, they serve US, and protect US... and when they start thinking about themelves as different than us, they forget who they serve and they mis-serve us.

One thing that really changes an officers mindset is to think of "us" as civilians while considering himself "something else". Change that mindset, make sure that the officers KNOW that they are civilians, just like the people they supposedly serve and protect, and you remove a huge barrier of communication.

The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?


Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I can assure you that the LEO's of the Ingleside CA PD could use some of your wisdom.


Willie

.

Fishing_Cabin
April 1, 2012, 10:48 PM
The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?

I am glad it was recieved in the spirit that I meant. I can, and do understand the insult as mentioned. As to the "who is serving who" part, it is up to the courts to decide, as there has been a limit placed on the protect aspect, but not the serve.

Just speaking for myself. While I am glad to respond, and help/serve in any way I am able to with in the law/policy, there are certain parts I am unable to help with. Such dispatched calls have been, but arent limited to, plumbing issues (repairing water heater), parenting issues (child wont stay in the house), electrical issues (they didnt pay the bill), and on and on. More to your point though as for the service part. I feel there is a line between being there to help (service), and being there to enforce (protect). Many times with the help/service issue, it is beyond what we can do as an officer. Even if we know how, we are limited in tools, time, and legal responsibility, even though many of us, do indeed try our best to resolve any issue we come accross. The enforce/protect issue, while having been before the supreme court in Castle Rock v. Gonzales, is still contested in many ways due to the conflict between serve AND protect. As to the enforce/protect issue, at times our hands are tied as well due to laws enacted, or court decisions. There can be no 100% on both, only do the best that is possible. Many enforcement actions only "serve" to protect the public at large, but is a punishment on the "individual", which is another part of the issue. I do forsee, a limit placed on the "serve" part of law enforcement at some point in the future by the courts.

Respectfully,
Fishing_Cabin

P.S. As to who should be more humble, my opinion is we should be equal.

thump_rrr
April 2, 2012, 01:47 AM
I belong to several forums and these type of topics come up all the time.I don't understand all these traffic stop stories.I have been driving for 46 years and have been stopped twice last time 40 years ago.I have to make a guess that many people who belong to gun forums drive like complete idiots?Or maybe they are just keyboard Ninjas?
I have been driving close to 30 years and have been stopped numerous times for speeding, talking on the cell etc.
When I am stopped I turn on the dome light, keep my hands on the wheel and obey all commands and speak politely.

A few years ago I was stopped doing 91 in a 65mph zone. After being pulled over the officer asked me if I had ever been pulled over in that state before.
I replied yes 2 years prior. He then notified me that the prior ticket was showing as unpaid and my license was suspended due to it.
I told him that it was paid and how and where I paid it.
He could have thrown me in jail for the weekend and let the judge figure it out on Monday however he let me go with a ticket and a notice to appear.

I think the way you interact with the police goes a long way towards how you are treated as long as they don't have their mind already made up on how they are going to treat you.

BlueTrain
April 2, 2012, 05:40 AM
No offense to anyone but I don't mind being called a civilian. I was in the army on active duty for three years, three more reserve and a year in the D.C. National Guard but it feels odd to be referred to as a "vet." But of all the people who work where I do, only one other served in the armed forces.

CaptainObvious
April 2, 2012, 07:52 AM
Willie Sutton,

The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious.

The stop you are describing is a "Terry stop" and has been argued in the Supreme Court. The police have a right to conduct such stops. I know "it sucks" to be on the receiving end, but you have to realize these stops keep us all safer and the community free of crime. Lets say there was a stranger loitering outside of your home for an extended period of time without any obvious reason. Wouldnt it be reasonable for the police to stop and question that individual or would you rather the individual just keep loitering outside your home without anyone questioning their presence?

The military is unlike any law enforcement agency. Almost anyone who meets some basic criteria can enlist in the military whereas very few ever make it to become police officers. The police academy is at least as rigorous or more rigorous then any boot camp in the military. When you get through the basic training in the military, then your job is relatively secure. Even if you screw up a few times or your commander thinks less of you then you can continue on in the military. However, on any police force they will monitor you closely for at least 3 years. Any screw ups or if the Chief doesnt think your a good fit then your out the door before the probationary period expires. During the first 2-3 years on the job, you can expect there to be at least monthly, if not weekly, meetings critiquing your performance and they will watch your every move. After the 2-3 year probationary period, it doesnt end there. You are constantly held to a higher standard and every action is scrutinized. Unlike the military, you need to be able to justify whatever you do in a court of law. Every officer eventually ends up on the witness stand being questioned by a defense attorney with the whole world watching. So not only do you have to get through the selection process, make it through the academy, the probationary period and the scrutiny, but you also have to justify yourself every step of the way on the witness stand. If any conduct in the future threatens your credibility or witness potential, then you are fired. Its clearly not easy.

As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.

If you need examples of the rigorous training, then go to youtube and there are many videos of actual academies. It is much much easier to be thrown out of these academies then a regular military basic training. The standards of conduct and performance are much higher.

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 08:47 AM
"The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious. "


I see... so making a hotel reservation with a well known 3-4 star national chain on Orbitz at a hotel one mile from the LAX Airport, and then parking in their lot in a rental car, and turning on the dome light to wrap up my GPS cord and toss it into my briefcase is sufficient "probable cause" to conduct a felony stop? No acceptance of my offer to show my ID, my boarding pass, my hotel reservation letter, or anything? Just "on the ground, handcuffed, head banged against the door of the car, a search of my private papers, my phone, etc.". This when I am a clean cut military pilot with a uniform, helmet, DOD Identification, and all of my things in order.


And you defend this sort of behaviour?

And you are a cop?

Uhh.... Yes, this is *precisely* why it's "Us" v/s "You":

Nobody but a cop would make any excuses for this sort of industrialized civil rights violation. There is a special name for a place where the Police make the rules. It's called a "Police State". I entered one that night and I no longer recognized where I was.

Listen to the excuses: "It's fighting the war on drugs", "fighting the war on prostitution"... the WAR... the end justifies the means I guess... after all it's a war. The language defines the attitude: "civilians"... "fighting the war:"... fighting the enemy... who is us.

I was never treated like the "enemy" before. And you were not cause for any alarm by this honest citizen. But for the rest of my life you sure are the enemy now, not in a way where I wish you any harm, but just in a way that makes me want to RUN AWAY, which is the reason this thread on the forum started. Why do people run from the police? It's because they are TERRIFIED. Yes, some are probably bad folks... but some, like me, have just been abused and are truly frightened. I can see now why they run of they think they can get away.


In contrast: In my town, if I seemed out of place at 10:00 PM, my local cops would have come up, rolled down the window, and asked if I was OK, lost, needed assistance, etc.. to engage me in conversation to determine if I was a good guy or a bad guy. That's OK... and would meet the law enforcement objective while not causing someone like me to become the "enemy". I'd have smiled, offered to show my ID and airline ticket and hotel reservation, and that would have been the end of it. I'd have tossed them one of my unit coins with a thanks and been on my way.

And this disparity in the way things are done is, sir, the reason I want nothing to do with LEO's and all I can think about when I am around them is leaving. Thank GOD I did not have my SAA in my suitcase being transported home. although I am certain it would have been perfectly legal, I am equally certain that I would have been tossed into jail for having it, after being stopped and held with a loaded weapon aimed at me for "probable cause" for my "crime" of being a traveler at a major airport.

As for police academy training, I suggest that you go down to Coronado sometime and see how the SEAL's train. Saying that it's harder to get onto and stay on a local police force is harder than being selected for SEAL training is absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, Officer: I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm sure you're a stand up guy at home, but might also be a guy who would toss my car and throw me in jail if you had the least chance to do so. Maybe not...probably not in fact, but I cannot take that chance. You want to fight a war? Sign up with your recruiter for a real one. I did.


As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.


I'm 53, I run, can outfight the kids, and when people call me "Captain" they mean it. The only thing that would gain me more respect would be to be called "Chief", and if you know anything about the Navy you'll get it. ;)



Smile, it's all OK... I'm here discuss to learn from each other.


Willie

.

BlueTrain
April 2, 2012, 08:50 AM
I don't mean to pick on you, Mr. Sutton, but you might have chosen a better name to use on this forum.

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 08:54 AM
I'm a SASS member: Willie is my SASS nom-de-guerre...

Glad you picked up on it though. Kids these days have no clue about Willie the Actor.... :cool:

Smile, we're all here to learn from each other. Maybe a few LEO's can learn from me.


Willie

.

zxcvbob
April 2, 2012, 09:13 AM
I thought to myself, "Maybe the CA cops thought you were a bank robber." With a name like W.S., it could be an honest mistake. ;)

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 09:15 AM
Humor Helps... ;)

Willie

.

CaptainObvious
April 2, 2012, 09:15 AM
The thing about law enforcement is that you have to have common sense and be able to see deeper into situations to be able to ask the right questions to find out the real story.

I dont know the particulars of why a group of 8 officers stopped you. It sounds like it might have been some sort of stake out at the hotel and there was something about your behavior which triggered a response. While I dont know those particular officers, I can guess those officers probably grew up in and around that community. They patrol that community everyday and there are probably weekly, if not daily, meetings and discussions of what goes on there. I can hazard a guess that the officers know exactly what goes on in that hotel and can articulate exact reasons for the stop. As how the system works, however, those officers cannot come to this forum to defend their actions. The only place where they are legally required to defend their actions is in a court of law and I am certain if they were brought there they would be able to articulate in great detail. Who knows, maybe they might have been looking for someone in the military because of thefts at the base...

I wouldnt take offense for being stopped. Sometimes we behave in a manner which stirs some suspicion. There was one time in my life where I was lost and had to turn around several times and so I was stopped by an officer to ask what I was doing. I didnt feel offended, but I understood and it did look unusual for someone to be constantly looping around looking and acting confused.

I do know the northeast quite well and can tell you that if there was any suspicious activity at an area hotel then they would do the exact same thing as the officers on the west coast. They would basically stake out the hotel looking for suspicious behavior and confront those who they feel might be committing a crime.

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 09:25 AM
"The thing about law enforcement is that you have to have common sense and be able to see deeper into situations to be able to ask the right questions to find out the real story"

Nobody bothered to ask: My plea to show my ID and paperwork was laughed at: "We'll find it all when we search your wallet" as they all laughed at the handcuffed pilot laying on his belly in a parking lot with a gun aimed at his head. No common sense, no attempt to do the right thing... I was just non-human scum to them at that moment, completely dehumanized in their view, not worthy of even being able to offer ID. At least in SERE school we knew the cadre was acting (we escaped, BTW)



"I do know the northeast quite well and can tell you that if there was any suspicious activity at an area hotel then they would do the exact same thing as the officers on the west coast. They would basically stake out the hotel looking for suspicious behavior and confront those who they feel might be committing a crime."


I can tell you that they would not have done so with drawn weapons... "Take that to the bank" says Willie... :D

Make all of the excuses you like, this one incident, legal or not, made a lifelong "non-supporter" of the PBA out of me. I will never give undeserved respect to a police officer. I will comply with their requests, but only out of fear... take that to the bank too. By fear we are controlled. It worked for me.


To your question: Sorry, Officer: I have a firm policy of not answering any questions. Your colleagues in California taught me that. May I leave now or am I being detained?


Willie

.

Grant D
April 2, 2012, 10:01 AM
Willie: I feel your pain, I've had that happen a few times in CA. SOME of the CA. Police think they're John Wayne. But Inglewood?? real high crime rate there. I have three friends that were robbed there at gunpoint, not a good place to be,and believe me your not the type of people they generaly deal with. I'm not backing that action,I just understand why after living in So.Cal.

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 10:22 AM
"Willie: I feel your pain, I've had that happen a few times in CA. SOME of the CA. Police think they're John Wayne. But Inglewood?? real high crime rate there. I have three friends that were robbed there at gunpoint, not a good place to be,and believe me your not the type of people they generaly deal with. I'm not backing that action,I just understand why after living in So.Cal."


Yeah... so it was explained to me by the shift supervisor after it was all done, and I was making my complaint to him about the treatment I received. But even so... and after just taking the Orbitz advice about closest and best hotel to LAX... give me a break.... there are other ways to stop someone and ask "are you lost" while really wanting to know "W T F are you doing here?" I fly out of Burbank now when I need to get to Edwards AFB, it's closer anyhow.


Capt. Obvious: I'm torn between (A) defending my honor and (B) sticking to my firm policy of not answering questions asked by strangers. I'll compromise by sending you my Linkedin profile by private message. Consider it a gift, not an obligation. We probably have mutual friends. Feel free to PM, it's gauche to make such a challenge in public.

Truly also, consider my posts a gift to help LEO's not make the same mistakes that these guys made. No reason at all to take someone who is basically inclined to like LEO's and make a lifelong skeptic out of him. I'm one of the good guys, one of the ones you are paid to protect, or so I had always believed.


Willie

.

kraigwy
April 2, 2012, 10:29 AM
I bet if I was to post a story about some cop rescuing a child who was trapped in a vehicle after an accident, the topic would turn into a cop bashing convention.

It don't take much smarts while reading these topics to figure out which ones always seem to flunk the Hello Test.

zincwarrior
April 2, 2012, 11:03 AM
Quote:
As a LEO, a good majority of the people you deal on a daily basis with are scumbags

Good to know law enforcement feels that way...

Probably really accurate though.

zincwarrior
April 2, 2012, 11:12 AM
I used to do a good amount of traveling up
and down the Maine turnpike early in the am
(from Mass to Bangor then up the Airline to Calais).
I got stopped many times.
One thing I do is always turn map lights and
the dome light on and it gets appreciated.
ron

Hadn't thought of that. Its probably an excellent idea.

Young.Gun.612
April 2, 2012, 01:24 PM
My grandmother, little old lady who has never been involved in any sort of illegal activity, who wouldn't even let me pick up a dollar from the street because it "wasn't mine if I hadn't earned it" doesn't trust or like cops and won't let them past the front steps without a warrant. Now why would someone who has no reason whatsoever to fear arrest or anything like that from police, be so distrusting of them?

I don't think they're all bad, I've met and dealt with some very cool cops. Unfortunately the stories of their abuses outshine and outweigh the stories of whatever good they do.

Buzzcook
April 2, 2012, 02:03 PM
Sometimes the police just get it horribly wrong.

Kenneth Chamberlain, Sr., a 68-year-old African-American Marine veteran, was fatally shot in November by White Plains, NY, police who responded to a false alarm from his medical alert pendant. The officers broke down Chamberlain’s door, tasered him, and then shot him dead. Audio of the entire incident was recorded by the medical alert device in Chamberlain’s apartment. We’re joined by family attorneys and Chamberlain’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain, Jr., who struggles through tears to recount his father’s final moments, including the way police officers mocked his father’s past as a marine. "For them to look at my father that way, (with) no regard for his life, every morning I think about it," he says
http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2012/03/29/racist-deaths-in-tusd-trayvon-tragedies-in-tucson/

I suppose it was Chamberlain's fault for not behaving in a deprecating manner.
You'd think when police make a well being check, they might decide force was off the table. If you thought that you'd be wrong.

Police Tasered an 86-year-old disabled grandma in her bed and stepped on her oxygen hose until she couldn't breathe, after her grandson called 911 seeking medical assistance, the woman and her grandson claim in Oklahoma City Federal Court. Though the grandson said, "Don't Taze my granny!" an El Reno police officer told another cop to "Taser her!" and wrote in his police report that he did so because the old woman "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," according to the complaint.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm

"Took a more aggressive posture in her bed" Reasonable cause to taze the old girl. At least she wasn't one of the growing number of taser deaths.

Sometimes the police are just going to kill you. Google ,unarmed man shot by police, and you get 2 1/2 million hits.

Fishing_Cabin
April 2, 2012, 02:15 PM
Hadn't thought of that. Its probably an excellent idea.

The dome/map light idea is a great one. Some others would be to roll the window down while you are stoping the vehicle. Know where the registration and insurance card to your vehicle is, and keep it together in a handy location, such as maybe clipped to the visor, or I personally keep mine partially stuck in the plastic trim above the drivers door at the head liner, so that if I am stoped, I dont worry an officer by reaching around or digging for it.

Other ideas, are just pretty common sense that sometimes we get busy and forget. Keep the lights working. Enure your tag is clean, visable, and the tag light does indeed work. If you drive a pick up, or are pulling an open trailer, keep any debris picked up, because if it blows/falls out on to the road it can be a reason to be stopped.

Another thought for those who have concealed carry permits (or whatever your state calls it) is to keep the concealed carry permit behind your license, and keep both somewhere easy to get to, and also, of course, keep in the habit of ensuring you have it with you when you go out.

Where to keep your hands on a traffic stop? You can keep them on the steering wheel, or if the window is down, comfortably as possible lay them on the door so the officer may see them as he walks up to your car. Or try at least keep them easily visable in some matter. it may be a good idea if possible to have your registration, license, concealed carry permit, etc in your visable hands as well. If you dont know where they are, or if they are in a compartment, tell the officer, and ask, "may I open the glove box (or whatever place it is in) and get it for you?" Dont just reach over and start opening things.

The reasons why I have responded to this thread and others similar, have been to try to help others maybe understand, to share ideas, to let some people know there are officers willing to try to help when/how they are able, also to help myself try to improve on my skills in dealing with some folks who may be leary, or dislike law enforcement for whatever reason, and to try to understand those who may have had a bad experience in the past, so perhaps maybe I can better relate to them if I come accross a person like this at work.

I hope everyone here has a wonderful day!

zincwarrior
April 2, 2012, 02:29 PM
To be honest, if someone said registration I'd have a blank look on my face (my Wife would proffer thats normal ;) ). We have the registration sticker on the driver side, and insurance. I don't think Texas has a separate registration thats normally required to be carried.

Its been awhile (knock on wood).

I worry about my teenage boy in this regard. He's a band geek with band geeks, but you never know what can happen. :(

Fishing_Cabin
April 2, 2012, 02:59 PM
True, you never can know what may happen.

A couple of other tips for ya'll too. If you have an experience with law enforcement for which you want to make a complaint against an officer, try not to play the one up game by telling the officer you are going to make a complaint, or trying to argue to that point. When you are free to leave, go by the agency's nearest office as soon as you are able with in reason. If you were charged, having the documents with you, as they, at least here, will have date, time, officer/agency info, etc. If its a verbal warning or similar, take a note of the time, and ask for the officers name/number and the agency. This can be done generally without trying to be arguementative. When you are free to leave stop somewhere up the road and write down this info as its generally better then trying to remember it.

If its an unmarked vehicle, late at night etc, the majority of the agencies I have been around, including my own, have no issue with the driver slowing down, and proceding to a near-by, but well lit area. It can be a good idea to also turn on your 4-way flashers as well.

JimCameron
April 2, 2012, 04:33 PM
Slick Willie, you paint a broad stroke with your brush, based on your encounter with a handful of officers. There are over 800,000 LEO's in the U.S.

On the other hand, my guess is that the Jet Blue passengers don't think much of pilots in general either.

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 05:06 PM
What I first learned is that cops treat citizens like suspects because 1 out of 1000 is a criminal, wants to harm the cop, and that the only way for them to stay safe is to treat everyone as a threat. They treat the people they interact with like threats until they drive away. That's understandable: It's just good tactics likely.

What I then added to that knowlage was that I need to do the same thing: I need to treat all cops that I come into contact with like someone who will trample my rights in order to do whatever they have been ordered to do. 1 out of a 1000? Same odds. They are all threats to me until they prove otherwise... by getting back in their car and driving away. Those are my tactics now. I learned them from the police.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Maybe it is 1 out of 1000. Cops don't accept those risks... neither do I.


I don't want to be a lightning rod here, I'm a relaxed good guy and basically LIKE cops from a cultural standpoint and from the standpoint of what they SHOULD be trying to accomplish in society. But I cannot risk my freedom on the wishful thinking that they are all good, or that all departments are honest departments. I have, to my own peril, found otherwise.

I'm going to step out of the discussion now, as its not productive. My entire point was to try to articulate why some people choose to run from the cops. it's not always that they are criminals: Sometimes the cops have taught people to fear them more than being punished for running if they are caught. Just food for thought.


Willie

.

JimCameron
April 2, 2012, 05:33 PM
Actor, I just don't want you to get yegg on your face.;)

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 05:54 PM
It's all good... sense of humor unscathed. Friends greeted, and enemies waved at.

Willie the Actor... what a guy, eh? Everybody liked him, unlike me... ;)

Best,


Willie "not the actor"

Fishing_Cabin
April 2, 2012, 06:00 PM
Not a problem Willie...

At times we all have opinions and ideas that may be great, or may rub others the wrong way. The discussion has been friendly, at least my view of it.

Also, no problem being a lightning rod...That is unless your grounded properly as well. I think we can all become a lightning rod at times. I hope you took nothing personally. I for one, did not infer that, only enjoyed the friendly discussion.

All, enjoy your evening

Willie Sutton
April 2, 2012, 06:38 PM
Completely agree.

Willie

.

marsofold
April 2, 2012, 06:40 PM
I agree 100% with Willie Sutton's attitude and conclusion about the current state of law enforcement in America. Thank you for your post, your service, and may God bless you Willie...:)

F350Diesel
April 3, 2012, 03:26 AM
I was taught by my dad what to do when interacting with the police. He enlisted in '73 as MP and still does it. That advice kept me not only sans handcuffs, but kept me out of jail when the police had more than enough to make me stay a few nights. Due to those few encounters when I was wrong but still acted calm, respectful, and followed orders, I wanted to be a police officer. I joined the military instead, but still want to be an officer when I'm done with the military. I've also got a lot of friends who are police officers. I've volunteered at my local police department to play "bad guy" during training. Just like my dad said, be good, you get treated well. Step out of line and get what is coming to you. Even in the training ops that was apparent.
Obviously there are variable factors in play here. Everyone is prone to a bad day. The stress of working a bad part of town for an extended period of time can really put someone in the red when it isn't necessary. Mob mentality is a pressure everyone is susceptible to, including officers. I guess even if these situations develop just a tiny bit, a regular Joe can make it a pretty bad day through complaints or legal action. But in all the instances where I've been pulled over or anything like that across the country, I've been treated with respect and fairness regardless of how obviously stupid I was being.
I guess I'd just like to say thanks to the cops out there.

Frank Ettin
April 3, 2012, 12:07 PM
Getting stale -- let's call it a day.