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View Full Version : ATM Robbery.. man in condition white but still wins


Deaf Smith
March 23, 2012, 06:38 PM
In Shreveport, LA.


http://www.kltv.com/story/17230681/atm-attempted-robbery-victim-turns-tables-on-attacker

Could have ended badly but he got the bad guys gun and the crook ran off (and arrested later.)

Deaf

TXAZ
March 23, 2012, 07:07 PM
Wow, was really glad to see no one got hurt. If I wasn't armed, I believe I would have just given him the money, taken a really good look, then called the cops.

I'm still surprised ATM's in the US don't have a holdup code: When you enter your pin in reverse order, or some other predetermined number, you still get your money but it's a silent alarm to the Police. They had this in one country we lived in.

On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't allow criminals to have guns? Where's that congressman Chuck from NYC when you need him :)

Edward429451
March 23, 2012, 07:29 PM
I cant imagine using an ATM in condition White. No one needs training for this (you would think!). I liken an ATM to a watering hole. It is no different. You look around for a potential attack before you put your head down to drink.

It goes against instincts and nature to be in the white on the street and especially at a bank! These people have White Picket Fence Syndrome (it can't happen to me).

Hansam
March 23, 2012, 07:51 PM
I hate ATMs and specifically for that reason. I know of three people who have been mugged while at the ATM. Granted all three were in Detroit when their respective muggings occurred but I've shied away from ATMs since then unless I absolutely HAD to use one.

Then I use a drive up ATM and have my pistol sitting on my lap when I use the machine. I park my truck as close as possible to the machine and give a good look around before commencing. After each time I look down to punch in numbers or select a menu option I look up and around again.

My left hand does all of the work. My right hand remains on my pistol the whole time. After I've driven away from the ATM I'll reholster the pistol.

I know I sound paranoid but when you personally know a few people who were victimized at ATMs you tend to be more paranoid about those things.

Oh and no none of them were carrying - two were decidedly anti-gun and the other was just oblivious.

Neal_G.
March 23, 2012, 08:49 PM
Oh and no none of them were carrying - two were decidedly anti-gun and the other was just oblivious.

Sounds like the three blind mice to me.

I'm just as wary of car washes, but ATM's can be a little harder to go without using if you really need cash.

TheNocturnus
March 23, 2012, 09:33 PM
Glad the guy got away unharmed. When I use the ATM I am in my car, car is in drive, I have one hand on my gun ready to draw and the other hand is working the machine. I am on high alert looking for anybody that should not be there.

Frank Ettin
March 24, 2012, 02:54 PM
It's not necessarily clear that the victim was in Condition White.

Remember that the Color Code, as taught by Jeff Cooper, (http://www.frfrogspad.com/color.htm) describes levels of preparedness and mindset. Specifically, Condition Yellow is described as: ...Relaxed alertness. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." There is no specific threat but you are aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something if necessary....

The next step, Orange, is described as: ...Specific alert. Something not quite right has gotten your attention and you shift your primary focus to that thing. Something is "wrong" with a person or object. Something may happen. Your mindset is that "I may have to shoot that person."...

And then one might go to Red, described as:...Fight trigger. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I will shoot them."...

Here, it doesn't look like the victim had a gun, but it does seem that he made the transition from Yellow, at the ATM, to Orange, as the mugger ran up to him. He appeared to recognize a particular problem he might have to deal with. And apparently, he did prepare himself to deal with it and went to Condition Red, setting a trigger that would result in him taking definitive action, because as soon as the mugger gave him an opening, the victim counterattacked.

Note also that the victim, just before he jumped the mugger, appeared to be turned toward, and looking at, the ATM. But he obviously was keeping tabs on the mugger, because as soon as the mugger turned away, the victim sprang.

The key element of Condition White is that one is mentally unprepared for the possibility that he would have to do something about something. When one is in Condition White, it's almost impossible to quickly move to take action in a rapidly unfolding crisis. It would be like starting out in a hole and having to first climb out on to level ground before starting to do anything.

But Condition Yellow is sort of like already being out of the hole. So our victim here never really seems completely flummoxed. He is alert and aware, and when given an opportunity acts immediately and decisively.

9mm
March 25, 2012, 08:34 AM
This video brings up long range shooting, if this was in a (ccw) state and the guy was armed, that would be a long shot/30yards?

GaryH
March 25, 2012, 08:52 AM
9mm, the guy's running away and you shoot him? In the back?

TexasJustice7
March 25, 2012, 11:30 AM
When I go to a teller machine in Texas I am always armed and ready, and conduct my business from the vehicle. In Shreveport I am unarmed due to the nature of my visits to Shreveport, and so I don't shop there, I don't stop for gas, to use the teller machine and no trips to a casino. I won't even stop for gas. My travel there takes me on federal property so I have ruled out doing any other business in Shreveport. Besides, that city is so rich they don't need none of my business while I am there on federal property. :eek:

ltc444
March 25, 2012, 01:02 PM
Any shot over 50 yards is a long shot. 50 yds and under should be second nature to an average shooter.

Frank Ettin
March 25, 2012, 02:42 PM
This video brings up long range shooting, if this was in a (ccw) state and the guy was armed, that would be a long shot/30yards?9mm, the guy's running away and you shoot him? In the back? If our victim were armed (Louisiana is a "shall issue" State), proficient, highly skilled, and able to immediately access and use his gun, he might have had an opportunity to fire as the mugger was running towards him.

The victim had about two seconds from the time he turned and could have first seen the mugger running towards him to the mugger being about seven to ten yards away. The mugger appeared to have a gun even at the distance at which he could have first been seen. Had the victim been armed and skilled, he might well have been able to recognize the threat, sidestep, draw and fire in about two seconds.

While the mugger was running, he was running towards in a fairly straight line, thus presenting a fair target. And even though the mugger appeared to be armed, his gun was sort of waving around, off line and not in firing position as he ran. Had the victim sidestepped, and fired, it's unlikely that the mugger would have perceived what was happening and been able to react quickly enough to return fire.

BUT

[1] To pull that off, our victim would need to be highly skilled and well trained.

[2] And he'd have some serious explaining to do. Depending on all the circumstances, it could be fairly straight forward, or very difficult, for our victim to establish that he was justified in using lethal force. While I think he'd probably be able to make a good case for justification, it could wind up being expensive, time consuming, stressful and highly disruptive of his life were he to have to do so.

[3] He's probably best off the way things turned out.

bikerbill
March 25, 2012, 03:33 PM
I never use an ATM for exactly this reason; if I can't charge what I need, I cash a check inside my bank ... glad this guy turned the tables on this thug and, if he disarmed the guy, was smart enough not to shoot him in the back as he fled ... condition white works when you're asleep, otherwise, pay attention!

Deaf Smith
March 25, 2012, 05:25 PM
Guys,

Someone on Condition Yellow would have keep turning his head to see if anyone was watching BEFORE they even started to withdraw their money. Someone on Condition Yellow would have kept an eye out to see if anyone started to approach them (or RUN toward them.) Someone on Condition White is so busy getting their money they don't turn around till it is to late.

I have no doubt the thug was watching across the street, waiting until someone they felt was an easy mark would come by and not watch around.

Louisiana, like Texas, is a shall issue state and there no reason for good citizens to not be armed and alert (especially Shreveport and ATMs!) And I suggest some H2H skills be added for if one gets the drop on you then grappling/disarming will be one of your few options.

The thug in the video did not consider the possibility the victim would fight back. While the victim was in Condition White, the thug was in Condition Stupid.

Deaf

Frank Ettin
March 25, 2012, 05:37 PM
...Someone on Condition Yellow would have keep turning his head to see if anyone was watching BEFORE they even started to withdraw their money....Sorry, but I disagree with you regarding the victim's state under the Color Code. There is nothing in the definition of Condition Yellow that would require someone to keep turning his head. I've provided a link to a comprehensive definition of the Gunsite Color Code published by John Schaefer. And I'm also relying on the lecture Jeff Cooper gave on the Color Code to my 250 class at Gunsite in 2002 as well as my conversations on the subject with Col. Cooper.

So I'll stick with my understanding of the Color Code.

hoytinak
March 25, 2012, 05:44 PM
Some of the ATMs around here actually have mirrors on them. When the victim looked at the ATM that last time, he could have been watching the mugger the whole time. It didn't take him long to act as soon as he seen the opportunity.

Frank Ettin
March 25, 2012, 06:08 PM
Some of the ATMs around here actually have mirrors on them. When the victim looked at the ATM that last time, he could have been watching the mugger the whole time. It didn't take him long to act as soon as he seen the opportunity. Yup, the ones here have mirrors too, at least all the ones at banks.

I use them, and probably our victim here did as well. When he turns towards the mugger, the mugger had just crossed the street and was quite a distance away.

Brit
March 25, 2012, 06:11 PM
If he had turned and saw the start of the run, drop every thing take cover behind the unit.

Robber to be, would have seen a gun, and a slice of person, and bullets!

Then, pick up cash and card. Then call 911. Ask for assistance, Ambulance, Parra medics, Police.

In being the person who was designated as the Official Guard person for the ATM technicians, in our Company, for 6 months.

I got to see lots of possible almost threats, that did not materialize.

But with the vaults open for up to 5 hours? Pucker factor was hi at times.

And I was visibly armed.

Deaf Smith
March 25, 2012, 09:12 PM
There is nothing in the definition of Condition Yellow that would require someone to keep turning his head.

Frank,

Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code

'You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." Hence keep looking around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

And from Jeff Cooper's Principles of Self Defense in the chapter on Alertness:

"Two rules are immediately evident: Know what is behind you, and pay particular attention to anything out of place. "

http://www.waywardthinking.com/pdf/Principles_of_Self_Defense.pdf on page 7.

Jeff wrote to keep your head out of your posterior and understand your surroundings. This is the basis of alertness.

LATER, Jeff pointed out his color code system was more of a mindset and being willing to use whatever force is needed. That is break your inhibition to use it if need be.

Deaf

SilentScreams
March 25, 2012, 09:20 PM
I don't really care about the color code system. Yes, it could have ended badly very easily. But it didn't and with folks like this taking an oppurtunity when you see it, maybe there'd be less of these around the country. But then, maybe not. Perhaps it'd just get more people killed. I just like the "Stand up for yourself" angle.


And I agree. Always use one inside somewhere. Much safer.

Frank Ettin
March 25, 2012, 11:08 PM
...LATER, Jeff pointed out his color code system was more of a mindset and being willing to use whatever force is needed. That is break your inhibition to use it if need be...That is as Jeff presented it to us and what became the core of the Color Code.

Furthermore, we have the possibility, as proposed in a prior post, that our victim was in fact "watching his six" using a mirror at the ATM.

Bottom line is that in my opinion your characterization of the victim as being in Condition White is unwarranted. And in any case, the real point is that he was able to act decisively and take advantage of an opportunity.