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View Full Version : The more I swab, the dirtier it looks!


Tom68
March 20, 2012, 07:13 AM
Cleaning the bore of a long-neglected rifle is a real chore! Gunslick, Break-Free, Hoppes #9, Hoppes Bench-Rest Copper Solvent... just when the patches start lightening up with one product, I look in the bore and it looks worse than when I started. So I move onto another solvent, and start getting filthy patches again! Just goes to show you just how much junk can accumulate in a barrel.

Currently working on an M1903A3 and an M1917, and I think I'm almost there. But after working these bores, it really makes me wish I could hear where they've been!

JimPage
March 20, 2012, 07:22 AM
I suspect you are seeing alternating layers of copper and char. Keep at it. It takes a loooonnnngg time to get neglected rifle barrel clean.

Tikirocker
March 20, 2012, 10:45 AM
Clean >>> shoot >>> clean >>> shoot ... it will improve.

Tiki.

NESHOOTER
March 20, 2012, 12:19 PM
I suspect you are seeing alternating layers of copper and char. Keep at it. It takes a loooonnnngg time to get neglected rifle barrel clean.


I think you got it JIM, good call. and to the OP need a good overnight bore foam you can keep in overnight.

Tom68
March 20, 2012, 12:46 PM
didn't use an overnight foam, but did leave in the hoppes copper solvent last night. We'll see in a few hours how well it did. Had to do that with a k98 a few months back....and it took a few overnight applications.

warningshot
March 22, 2012, 05:46 AM
Hot, hot, a very hot pail of 212 plus degrees F dish detergent soapy water. As the metal heats-up most of that 60 year old gunk surfaces so you can scrub it out. Asbestos type thick gloves? Darn right. You can't do this job without them.

At 212 degress the water will evaporate; but, there'e always a butt,

this will also remove all/any kind of lubricate/preservatives of all kinds so you will have to immediately grease or oil your action, and then put a thin coat of oil on all metal surfaces.

tim s
March 22, 2012, 10:17 AM
That's good advice for a flintlock not smokeless powder/copper fouling. We have available many great solvents for copper and carbon, most work.

Old 454
March 22, 2012, 07:18 PM
try butches bore shine, that stuff works pretty good

sir_n0thing
March 22, 2012, 09:29 PM
I've had my Mosin for abut a year now and I'm still getting a lot of gunk out of it! :D I clean it every time I come home from the range, and I also clean it every few weeks even when I'm NOT shooting it. Decades worth of filth in that thing...

Heavy Metal 1
March 22, 2012, 10:39 PM
I've had good luck w/ the Outers Foul Out system back when I was in the C&R buying phase of my collecting. I still have it, but no longer use it since I have them all cleaned down to bore metal & keep them that way.

jsmaye
March 23, 2012, 08:19 AM
You might consider searching this site for the thread about using electrolysis to clean your barrel.

gyvel
March 23, 2012, 08:40 AM
Electrolysis is a Royal PITA, but it does work.

I have had excellent results with a bore cleaning product called "RB 17." As you keep scrubbing the bore with it, more and more disgusting grey sludge comes out.

What's really a good feature of RB 17 is that it is completely biodegradable and non-toxic.

warningshot
March 25, 2012, 02:35 AM
Carbon yes, copper yes, water-based???? Not always. Keep scrubing and hope for the best. Good luck.

DE Shooter
March 26, 2012, 09:37 PM
I collect and shoot Mosin Nagant M91s. I have never had a patch come out white yet. My first couple , I cleaned the heck out of them...trying many of the methods mentioned above. I believe there is truth in the fact that you can actually do damage by trying too much cleaning. So, I can live with the grayish patches. I shoot corrosive ammo, then clean accordingly, every time.

warningshot
March 27, 2012, 02:33 AM
Heat that barrel up with 212F water and cut-back on scrubbing ten fold. What is the matter? Do you think you can hurt that Mosin? Science says 212F water evaporates on contact.

O.K. Think of it this way: All those mentioned flintlocks...do you see all those rusted-out because the owner didn't use $15.00 an once bottled spluey from Hoppes?

Or how about taking your brand new $5,000 dollar sniper rifle to a match and it's raining? Shoot between the rain drops? Wait in the car? This isn't Baseball. It is shooting.

Now go find some big mittens, heat-up some water, and give that Mosin a good hot soppy water scrub down just like the ruskie prior owner did 70 years ago. And don't forget to send pictures. :D

jsmaye
March 27, 2012, 07:57 AM
No matter how hot the water is (and 'science' says it can never exceed 212 F. at sea level where few of us live), on its own it will not remove copper or lead fouling. Or carbon deposits.

If you're scrubbing with patches then it is impossible to scrub too much; besides, as dirty as the OP's bore seems to be, he's not even gotten down to the metal yet. Scrub on.

Rifleman1776
March 27, 2012, 08:26 AM
Electrolysis is a Royal PITA, but it does work.


Not so. Electroylsis is incredibly simple and effective. Takes a little set-up time but when ready, very-very simple to use. Once you are set-up your friends will want you to do their rifles also.

Sport45
March 27, 2012, 09:13 AM
I haven't found anything better than Boretech Eliminator for getting copper and carbon fouling out of old milsurps. There are some I haven't tried that may work just as well, but I can't imagine them being any better.

One good thing about Boretech is it's a preservative. So there's no way you can leave it in the barrel too long.

warningshot
March 28, 2012, 03:05 AM
Let's see...moving water carved-out the Grand Canyon. Was there any carbon there when it happened? Moving forward...steam..oh yea...steam cleaner. That's it! We clean car engines with pressurized ice water! Even children know it's eaiser to clean a kettle with hot soapy water vs. cold soapy water.

Water can't reach temps over 212F, or 100C for you Euro people? That's correct. You win a gold star. Now what about...about....oh ya...change of state...steam. Wow. Let's have a barbeque and experiment at the same time.

I'll bring a kettle of water with a lid and put it on. 10 minutes later I'll lift the lid and aim a lazer therometer inside.

Oh no, we can never riase the Mosin barrel temp above 212F with just water.

Ask yourself this: What came first? A jacketed bullet or gun cleaning solvents? How did they do it?

How did any gun that had corrosive ammo pumped thru, many times no less, survive without any metal damage decades before these Wonder solvents even existed?

M1 Garands, 30 Cal carbines, and 1911s, by the millions, fired 10's of million corrosive rounds without incident as you can see now holding an exact gun. Just how were they sometimes, if not often, cleaned? Gee, I wonder.

warningshot
March 28, 2012, 03:22 AM
Let's see...moving water carved-out the Grand Canyon. Was there any carbon there when it happened? Moving forward...steam..oh yea...steam cleaner. That's it! We clean car engines with pressurized ice water! Even children know it's eaiser to clean a kettle with hot soapy water vs. cold soapy water.

Water can't reach temps over 212F, or 100C for you Euro people? That's correct. You win a gold star. Now what about...about....oh ya...change of state...steam. Wow. Let's have a barbeque and experiment at the same time.

I'll bring a kettle of water with a lid and put it on. 10 minutes later I'll lift the lid and aim a lazer therometer inside.

Oh no, we can never riase the Mosin barrel temp above 212F with just water.

Ask yourself this: What came first? A jacketed bullet or gun cleaning solvents? How did they do it?

How did any gun that had corrosive ammo pumped thru, many times no less, survive with any metal damage decades before these Wonder solvents even existed? I am not just talking about Daniel Boone's rifle.

M1 Garands, 30 Cal carbines, and 1911s, by the millions, fired 10's of million corrosive rounds without incident as you can see now holding an exact gun. Just how were they sometimes, if not often, cleaned? Gee, I wonder.

Sport45
March 28, 2012, 03:38 AM
Ya should have just said boiling water... :)

jsmaye
March 28, 2012, 08:30 AM
Let's see...moving water carved-out the Grand Canyon. Was there any carbon there when it happened? Moving forward...steam..oh yea...steam cleaner. That's it! We clean car engines with pressurized ice water! Even children know it's eaiser to clean a kettle with hot soapy water vs. cold soapy water.

Water can't reach temps over 212F, or 100C for you Euro people? That's correct. You win a gold star. Now what about...about....oh ya...change of state...steam. Wow. Let's have a barbeque and experiment at the same time.

I'll bring a kettle of water with a lid and put it on. 10 minutes later I'll lift the lid and aim a lazer therometer inside.

Oh no, we can never riase the Mosin barrel temp above 212F with just water.

Ask yourself this: What came first? A jacketed bullet or gun cleaning solvents? How did they do it?

How did any gun that had corrosive ammo pumped thru, many times no less, survive with any metal damage decades before these Wonder solvents even existed? I am not just talking about Daniel Boone's rifle.

M1 Garands, 30 Cal carbines, and 1911s, by the millions, fired 10's of million corrosive rounds without incident as you can see now holding an exact gun. Just how were they sometimes, if not often, cleaned? Gee, I wonder.

Wow.

Well, I didn't see any winkies ;) or smilies :) , so I'll proceed as though this snark-fest was deliberate.

'Moving water carved the grand Canyon'. Correct but inapplicable. Are you suggesting that geological erosion and bore cleaning are the same?

Your posts were 'hot water' this and 'hot water' that. Now you trumpet 'Steam!' My responses were about the 'hot water'. Yes, water can get to higher temperatures than 212F before undergoing the phase change to steam, if the pressure of the system is greater than 14 psi (pressure cooker, automotive cooling systems, etc.) High-pressure water or steam could go a great job cleaning a barrel of dirt, corrosive salts, and solvents (disregarding the fact that it would also strip away whatever finish the wood had.) It's still not going to be effective against copper and lead fouling.

Some children realize that hot water is more effective than cold. What they don't realize, being children, is that no amount of hot water is going to remove copper or lead fouling from inside a gun barrel.

Jacketed bullets made their first appearance in the 1880s. I'm sure there were not a lot of solvents available. Fouling was probably removed by mechanical means, such as scrubbing with patches. Was it effective? The creation and successful marketing of all these bore cleaners and fouling removers tells me 'no.'

With regards to removing salts left behind from firing rounds with corrosive primers, I've found water to be sufficient. The OP wasn't just cleaning corrosive salts from his barrel or else he'd have finished long ago.

Hot water is not effective against copper or lead fouling..

warningshot
April 6, 2012, 03:40 AM
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him gargle :D:):p:eek::ro

PawPaw
April 6, 2012, 05:06 AM
We used to boil M16's by the batch when we'd come out of the field. We'd get a big metal garbage can, fill it with water with some Simple Green, put an immersion heater in it, and fire it up. Then we'd strip the uppers and put them in the boiling water, 15-20 at a time. Let them boil for fifteen or twenty minutes, then fish them out an let them dry. I was always amazed at the gunk and crud that would be floating on the surface of the water when we were done.

Edward429451
April 7, 2012, 09:54 AM
Water is indeed, the universal solvent. You probably could do it with cold water, it might just take 4000 years. :D

warningshot
April 9, 2012, 01:05 AM
Did you have to wait 4,000 years? Ha Ha.

I 'herd' that on many a time ARVN troops dunked their M1 Garands and 30 Cal Carbines directly into a stream or river to clean their weapons. Who needs solvent? Ha Ha. That isn't going to get those weapons clean.

You should hear the howling and crying when I use hot soapy water on a Mosin Nagant. "YOU CAN"T DO THAT!" "Oh but here... use some Windex."

A good thing no one ever told Daniel Bone he couldn't clean corrosive gunk out of his rifle with hot soapy water.

jsmaye
April 9, 2012, 09:31 AM
Maybe I just wrote too fast, so I'll slow it down.

Hot. Water. Is. Not. Effective. Against. Copper. Or. Lead. Fouling.

warningshot
April 10, 2012, 02:31 AM
iifff-yyoouu-ssaayy-ssoo. Carry-on.