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TheRoadWarrior
March 18, 2012, 01:33 AM
Bad part of my job is that all I deal with is trauma and war surgery. I see exactly what weapons are capable of every day. I can say this: no matter the caliber or weapon system, there is NEVER a guaranteed kill shot.

I've seen a guy get shot in the face with an SVD by an insurgent sniper. The bullet struck his zygomatic process at a glance so the bullet tunneled under the soft tissue to the base of his skull and exited. He said he felt like he got stung by something but felt blood dripping from his face and got his medic. Dude walked in to our hospital. That sniper was probably wondering if he hit him at all.

I saw a guy try to kill himself with a .45 to his chest...which I have no clue why the chest, maybe he wanted to make sure he was an open casket funeral, I don't know, but it missed EVERYTHING vital and he lived.

I saw a guy take a 9mm to his temple and blow out most of his cerebrum and he lived for hours breathing on his own until his family said their goodbyes.

But, I have seen a single small piece of shrapnel from a ricochet hit in the back and severe the aorta. I have seen a 9mm hit the femoral high in the pelvis and bleed out by the time they arrived, and I have seen a 9mm strike an arm and blow out all the major nerves and vessels resulting in an above the elbow amputation.

I have seen 9mm enter the lower abdomen and blow out a kidney and the patient's retro-peritoneal cavity completely fill with blood and the patient die by the time they arrived to the hospital. I have seen a man shot through the shoulder with a .50BMG and walk away with only soft tissue injury.

I have also seen a guy shot center mass in the chest with a 9mm and continue with what he was doing for a few minutes until he collapsed and died. I have also seen insurgents (by the time they reach me they are no longer called insurgents but "detainees" which I have no clue why...I mean you witnessed them shooting at you and all of a sudden they are not insurgents when you shoot them back lol) that have been shot multiple times by 5.56 to the abdomen and chest and they were witnessed to continue fighting until they lost enough blood to pass out or surrendered.

So my point is, a bullet hurts no matter the caliber, and when people get caught up on calibers and forget that even a .22 to the chest center mass can kill, then you might be developing a false sense of confidence that your caliber big iron will absolutely drop someone when you pull the trigger. While slower, large kinetic energy bullets will definitely make bigger holes and damage, the faster and higher penetrating rounds can pierce body parts that otherwise may not be able to by large caliber at a longer distances.

Training is the best weapon, train as you fight but never expect that your shots are going to kill someone automatically. A shot to the chest may only cause a pneumothorax/hemopneumothorax and the person can take hours to die, they may even still be a threat until their lung starts to collapse and they start having breathing difficulty. This can be the case no matter what the caliber as long as the heart and great vessels have not been effected. Everyone has seen 3 Kings I'm sure...that one part of it was actually pretty realistic where Mark Wahlberg gets shot in the chest..although there is no way he could just keep walking around for hours without seeking medical help lol. The pain alone would make you want to stop what your doing I'm sure; I have never been shot in the chest, but I probably would not want to keep walking around the desert looking for gold and stuff with a giant bullet hole in me, plus the fact that even if the bullet passed through the intercostal space, there is muscle in between, nerves and vessels, so it will probably shatter both ribs in proximity and that alone would put you in excruciating pain with every breath. But that is Hollywood of course.

So from a trauma surgery perspective, aim center mass and make sure you neutralize the threat because people don't just instantly die like in the movies!

jrothWA
March 18, 2012, 09:41 AM
THANK YOU for steeping in harm's way.

May you and your unit return intact (as deployed) and with fading memories.

TheRoadWarrior
March 18, 2012, 10:03 AM
"THANK YOU for steeping in harm's way.

May you and your unit return intact (as deployed) and with fading memories."

Thanks, I appreciate that! My only job is to get as many soldiers back safely to their loved ones as possible!

kraigwy
March 18, 2012, 03:26 PM
As an old Combat Infantryman,

I REALLY REALLY LIKE MEDICS.

Skadoosh
March 18, 2012, 03:51 PM
Very interesting post, TRW!

HALL,AUSTIN
March 18, 2012, 04:50 PM
I would not like to have that job, but would like to thank you for your part in helping out our troops. And holy poo! Walk into a hospital after a headshot from an svd :eek: that must have been insane. If I was the guy on the sending end I would have said "what a badass" and quit my insurgency.(I think thats a word...)

TheRoadWarrior
March 18, 2012, 10:33 PM
Thanks for the support everyone!

I'm getting out of the service shortly and I will return to being a nurse in the civilian world. I hope to specialize one day in forensic nursing (like CSI stuff). I often catch myself figuring out the patient's distance from the weapon and the angle they were shot from, the caliber used and even the type of ammunition used (HP, AP, FMJ etc.) all of which lead me to believe that I would really enjoy that field.

Skans
March 19, 2012, 10:57 AM
This has been a very interesting read. Thanks for laying this out factually with solid examples and thanks for your service.

trex1310
March 19, 2012, 01:56 PM
Real life aint like the movies for sure. When I was in Vietnam
on patrol, my unit took some rifle fire. I was lying behind a log
when a sniper round nicked the brim of my helmet and struck
me in the right foot. It exited the bottom of my boot. We
couldn't get a Medevac for 12 hours or so. In that short time
the wound got infected. I had surgery the next day to try and
repair the broken bones and damaged tendons. Needless to
say that episode ended my Army career. To this day it still
causes me considerable pain. God bless the medics. They
were there when I needed them the most.

Doc TH
March 19, 2012, 09:37 PM
RW is correct.
A few cases have been hit with a 20mm shell and survived. There is one well documented case of an individual hit with a single pellet of birdshot at almost 100 yds who died of an aortic puncture. In civilian ERs I have seen DOAs from non-contact birdshot wounds to the chest and survival after a .45 round directly to the brain (as a matter of fact in that case the hospital magazine [Philly inner city] later had a cover photo of the x-ray showing a .45 slug directly in the middle of the brain).
None of this means that birdshot can be expected to be effective in SD scenarios, nor that a .45 to the head is inconsequential.
In the multi-year NYPD SOF studies of police-perp shootings the NYPD concluded that the only factor that was related to stopping the fight was not caliber, but shot placement.

FM12
March 19, 2012, 10:49 PM
TRW: God bless u in a special way for your service. I hope and pray you and all your crew are soon home, well and fully recovered!

TheRoadWarrior
March 20, 2012, 05:22 AM
Doc TH,

Thanks for your support, and your experiences just reminded me that "less than lethal" means of self defense are not always true.

If a person takes a rubber bullet or bean bag shotgun shell to the right place it can kill them, or paralyze them for life. A bean bag mid sternum can cause sudden death just like the kids that get hit with a baseball. A shot to the head or neck can severe the spine, cause massive internal head bleeding and sheering of the brain or any vessel within, if it hits the neck can crush the trachea. A child accidentally hit with this would be really in trouble almost anywhere they got hit.

A tazer gun can put you into a fatal cardiac rythym. Rare but possible.

To all veterans I salute you!

markj
March 20, 2012, 03:55 PM
Medical people are the best. My wife is one, she puts up with, well me :)O

A young boy was shot in the chest with a bb gun, he went into the house lifted his shirt showing his mom then he died. Was in Nebraska.

briandg
March 20, 2012, 04:26 PM
Thanks for your service. Yes, most of this endless ammunition wars argument, while helping to create some basic information, is practically useless once life adds in the millions of variables. something as simple as altering the angle of impact by a few degrees, the point of impact by a half-inch, or even changing the ammunition used and hence depth of penetration or wound channel trauma can mean the difference between walking away and being carried in a bag.

Regarding the BB gun, a punk with a BB gun shot a boy local to this area as he rode past on his bike. the BB hit the kids jugular, and was flushed into his heart. Of course, they just left the thing there and bandaged the hole in his neck, and at this point, it's safe to assume that the BB has dissolved. Copper, brass, or even zinc plated iron shot should have corroded away after 15 years.

rem44m
March 20, 2012, 05:15 PM
Thank you for your brave service and God bless our troops!

Also I really appreciated the post!

serf 'rett
March 20, 2012, 05:54 PM
Interesting post. While we may say the shot placement is king, this post could also make a strong case that two or more holes are better than one.

PawPaw
March 20, 2012, 06:24 PM
I really like Medics too. Married one, as a matter of fact. She's now a practicing RN and what I like best about her is her absolutely warped sense of humor. Soldiers, Cops, and Nurses have a lot in common.

Thank you for your service and come home safe.

OEF-Vet
March 20, 2012, 06:52 PM
Thanks Doc.

Doc TH
March 20, 2012, 08:13 PM
RW, you are welcome. You brought some interesting perspectives to the forum. On the web, many debates degenerate into caliber wars; it is rare that the debaters have had much personal experience with specific firearms injuries and their ultimate effects. You may want to pick up a textbook in forensic pathology to see if you are really interested in that kind of work. I do NOT recommend this to the general public, but you've already been there.

TheRoadWarrior
March 21, 2012, 02:48 AM
A question about a possible situation you might find yourself in when you defend yourself: This is related to my topic because remember, not all people die when you pull the trigger.

Your life is in danger and you choose to pull the trigger. Now the threat is neutralized....but now lying on the ground bleeding all over and still alive. You are looking this person in the face and they may be talking to you begging for help or mercy, but they are no longer a threat to you. What would you do? Would you holster your weapon and give them aid, put pressure on the wound or wrap a tourniquet on them? Would you double tap them and kill a non-combatant? Would you keep your muzzle on them and call the police and let them save their life?

If I just shot someone in my home and they are not dead, I tend to fall back on my rules of engagement training and treat that person now as a non-combatant and a patient. We get taught that when you shoot the enemy and they are still alive, you do not double tap them or mercy kill, you disarm them and render aid. This is a safety issue in your own home or out in public with your CCW because if the person was armed and you shot them, they may still be a threat to you. So if they had a gun and you shot them first and they are alive, do you shoot them again if they are still holding the gun? Do you yell at them to drop the weapon or tell them to safely slide the weapon away from them? If they have just a bat or a knife would that change the situation?

But what about civilians, is there some sort of good Samaritan law about SD? Can you get sued or criminally held accountable if you shot someone and didn't provide them with aid after they were no longer a threat? Lawyers can be very clever in painting a picture in courtrooms that you were maliciously watching a person bleed to death and not offering any aid I'm sure.

seeker_two
March 21, 2012, 06:50 AM
Not sure I'd render aid in that situation. If they were a threat to your life before you shot them, nothing really changes after you shoot them. You may even open yourself up to another attack at close range.

Stay back. Call police and ambulance. Let those paid to handle it do so.....

BlueTrain
March 21, 2012, 07:01 AM
Not only should you render aid, but you should also apologize for having to shoot them. After all, it wasn't something you wanted to do. It was unavoidable, wasn't it?

Otherwise, you might as well shoot them again.

Double Naught Spy
March 21, 2012, 07:48 AM
Interesting post. While we may say the shot placement is king, this post could also make a strong case that two or more holes are better than one.

More holes certainly may be better, but shot placement is nothing without trajectory and penetration. For example, even if you have good placement and trajectory, it means nothing without penetration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqV_rmiSCZc

Also note Roadwarriors .45 to the chest attempted suicide where the guy had placement and penetration, but the trajectory was such that the bullet missed everything vital.

All three must work in unison to get the results successful results needed.

jimbob86
March 21, 2012, 08:15 AM
Stay back. Call police and ambulance. Let those paid to handle it do so.....


Um..... in most of the country (area-wise), EMS is not paid ..... we volunteer for that crap, because there is not any money to pay someone, and somebody has to do it....... we can't just leave people to bleed out on the streets.

If it were me, I would call 911, and if I was pretty sure the threat was ended (disarmed and incapacitated), I'd render aid..... try to figure out an improvised occlusive dressing for a sucking chest wound.....


Not only should you render aid, but you should also apologize for having to shoot them.. Probably would .... I apologize to folks when I poke them with needles or lancets.....

BlueTrain
March 21, 2012, 09:55 AM
I was serious. Don't act like the bad guy. Hard rule to follow, though.

DasGuy
March 21, 2012, 10:05 AM
I personally (as someone that was an EMT) would not render aid to someone I had to shoot. I might throw them a towel or something; but that's about it. What's to stop them from pulling a gun or knife or even grab your gun when you drop your gaurd and get close?

The police are going to go in first and make sure the scene is safe for the medics.

BlueTrain
March 21, 2012, 12:39 PM
Harder to follow than I thought, apparently.

SPEMack618
March 21, 2012, 12:46 PM
I've always been taught, and witnessed first hand, that one of the biggest things that seperated American military personnel from our enemies is that after the fight is over, we will work feverishly to save a wounded enemy combatant.

I would like to think that if I were ever invovled in a defensive shooting that I would adhear to the same code.

jimbob86
March 21, 2012, 01:24 PM
I personally (as someone that was an EMT) would not render aid to someone I had to shoot. I might throw them a towel or something; but that's about it. What's to stop them from pulling a gun or knife or even grab your gun when you drop your gaurd and get close?

The police are going to go in first and make sure the scene is safe for the medics.

Thing is, I am the EMT on scene.... after I determine that the scene is safe:

if I was pretty sure the threat was ended (disarmed and incapacitated),

I then have a Duty to Act, if it's in my district..... If he's still capable of hurting me, then of course the scene is not safe..... but if he's laying in my livingroom with a sucking chest wound, struggling to breathe, bleeding profusely, and I have his weapon, I can't very well just stand there and watch him expire.

markj
March 21, 2012, 04:42 PM
but they are no longer a threat to you. What would you do? Would you holster your weapon and give them aid

I would try my best to save their life. We are VFD too, wife is a resp therapist and EMS. I have first aid and cpr. We value life and it would take a lot to get one of us to shoot someone. Some folks just will not listen to reason and shooting them is a nessasary thing.

We both shoot, she is taking her carry class this weekend. Daughter of mine is a RN out in Nebraska now too. Mom is a scrub nurse, sisters both nurses.

Daughter wanted to be a vet, then her horse got a bad neck injury, she went into the RN, told me it hurt her too much to see an animal hurt like that, people not so much :)

ltc444
March 21, 2012, 05:27 PM
if ever I am in need of first aid for a gunshot wound, I want a SF independent Medical Operative (I don't Know if they still call then that) or a Marine Navy Corpsman working on me. They know what they are doing and will not give up. Thank you for serving Doc.

briandg
March 21, 2012, 06:17 PM
There isn't a chance in the hot place that I would render aid to a person I just shot.

When confronted with a situation, I will give that person every opportunity to stay alive. When force is the only option, I will lay fire on that guy until there is no sign of resistance. At that point, in my philosophy, the person I shot is just going to have to hope that I missed the vitals, and that he's luckier than I am.

I wasn't given a choice about whether or not to shoot him, and I'm not going to interfere with whatever fate has in store for him.

I'm going to back the heck away, avoid his probably infected blood and tissue samples, not put myself within spitting distance, take care of my family, and protect myself.

For the people who would find it revolting that I would coldly allow a human being to die, I have nothing to say. Yep, let him die. Everyone dies. People always make choices that lead to their death. his decision was as stupid as windsurfing in a hurricane, and even being stupid and a criminal will not deter others from trying to save his life.

If it is in your nature to defend everyone from death, just like the people who protested when ted bundy was executed, that is admirable. At this point, I don't put that much value on the life of any random human being, and evil people are at the bottom of my list. I wouldn't donate an ounce of marrow to save my own brother's life. I wouldn't cross the street to save the guy who wrote the virus I got last year.

But, I'd give my own life to save the minister of my church.

jmr40
March 21, 2012, 06:50 PM
On a similar note this is one of the most amazing stories of survival I'm aware of.

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez

Roy Benavidez was involved in a battle in Vietnam and received a total of 37 separate wounds including 7 gunshot wounds, one through the right lung, as well as shrapnel wounds and bayonete stabbings. He made it to an evacuation helicopter that was shot down and he survived the crash.

Six hours after the first wounds he arrived at a hospital with his intestines outside his body and his eyes caked closed from dried blood. A doctor declared him dead, but before he could zip the body bag closed Benavidez spit in his face to let him know he was still alive.

He didn't receive his MOH until many years later. When Ronald Reagan presented the medal he told the audience that if someone were to ever make a movie about about what he did, no one would believe it actually happened.

I honestly believe that some folks just have the mental attitude that they are not going to give up and die. This accounts for some surviving wounds that easily kill others.

briandg
March 21, 2012, 08:47 PM
I read about benavidez when the war was still on. IIRC, he was engaging in rescue when he took a lot of those hits. That man deserved our unending awe.

sabo954
March 22, 2012, 12:31 AM
Our deployments got cancelled because of Hurricane Katrina, but during the early part of the war when I was in clinicals, we were getting patients en route from Ramstein to MTFs in Texas. I remember being 19 and looking down at the paperwork from my first patient that had been wounded in the AOR... That's when I "grew up". He was a soldier shot in the back with 7.62x39mm, he had taken off his armor to get into a tight space while repairing a humvee damaged in the field. The bullet remained intact after striking one of his ribs proximal to his spine, and had shattered the bone fragments into his left lung. The bullet stopped there, but flipped into a vertical position. They had removed the lower two lobes of that lung in emergency surgery. My X-Ray demonstrated no change in the bullet position on the trip over, or any worsening of the remaining lobe, the bullet was still dangerously close to his spine and would need delicate neurosurgery. Thank God he was doped up to his eyeballs and sedated. And then I looked at his DOB: he was 3 or 4 months younger than me...

Double Naught Spy
March 22, 2012, 07:28 AM
I've always been taught, and witnessed first hand, that one of the biggest things that seperated American military personnel from our enemies is that after the fight is over, we will work feverishly to save a wounded enemy combatant.

I would like to think that if I were ever invovled in a defensive shooting that I would adhear to the same code.

LOL, I have always thought the US military stupid for such acts because they have cost additional US lives.

Aid to my attacker will come when the good folks at 911 send help. I see no reason in exposing myself to a biohazard risk that potentially could do me harm.

briandg
March 22, 2012, 07:48 AM
I guess that one of the primary reasons I feel that way is that I genuinely believe that psychopathic criminals have no business being loose in society. the only absolute way to keep them out of society is killing them. Getting killed in a gunfight with a potential victim or LEO is the natural course of a violent criminal's life.

I have a lot of contradictory thoughts and feeliings about lethal force, but that's not a sign of hypocrisy, that is proof that I take it seriously. With all of the myriad moral, ethical, religious, personal, and emotional issues involved, somewhere, you have to draw a line and make that personal decision.

I set aside a lot of things, and the fact that I loathe people who exploit and hurt others is the primary criteria for my decision to leave that punk where he lays. If nobody ever shows up, I'm gonna eventually leave him for the flies and go home and have dinner.

Of course others among you make different decisions. I respect you for being a more charitable man than I am. Someday, you may reach my state of cynicism, but I truly hope not.

SPEMack618
March 22, 2012, 08:26 AM
Comment removed

SPEMack618
March 22, 2012, 08:36 AM
You render aid to the enemy because, aside from the various laws and conventions of war, it is the right thing to do.


American soldiers render aid to thier enemies, it's what seperates us from everybody else, especially our enemies.

And I believe, and so did General Petraeus, that when you render aid to a fallen Taliban fighter, you are showing why we are different than the Russians or the English, and therefor contributing greatly to the eventual succes in Afghanistan.

War is horrible, and should be ended by the most violent means possible, how some evr, that doesn't mean it has to destroy your soul.

Merad
March 22, 2012, 02:38 PM
Your life is in danger and you choose to pull the trigger. Now the threat is neutralized....but now lying on the ground bleeding all over and still alive. You are looking this person in the face and they may be talking to you begging for help or mercy, but they are no longer a threat to you. What would you do? Would you holster your weapon and give them aid, put pressure on the wound or wrap a tourniquet on them? Would you double tap them and kill a non-combatant? Would you keep your muzzle on them and call the police and let them save their life?

Best not to do the bolded part if you value your freedom... if they're incapacitated or no longer a threat and you execute them you're going to be strung up on murder charges in most places...

As far as the rest... gotta check your local laws. I have a feeling this is a huge grey area in most places. I'm not so sure you'd be covered by Good Samaritan laws since you caused the injuries. In googling trying to find some answers I did find that Minnesota at least requires you to give "reasonable assistance," however you interpret that.

A person who discharges a firearm and knows or should know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person must immediately investigate the extent of the injuries and render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person. A person who violates this duty is subject to criminal penalties that vary according to the extent of the shooting victim’s injuries. A person who witnesses a shooting incident is subject to the same duty to investigate and render aid and is also subject to criminal penalties for failing to do so. Minn. Stat. § 609.662

IMO legally and morally you're probably better off helping if at all possible, even if it isn't required. If the DA decides to charge you, sitting there and watching while the BG bleeds out isn't going to help your case.

markj
March 22, 2012, 02:48 PM
You render aid to the enemy because, aside from the various laws and conventions of war, it is the right thing to do.


+1 there. After WW2 the pres got 2 trillion for the re building of Eastern Europe, we also helped re build Japan. A war we didnt even wish to be a part of.

My Uncle was wounded in Nam, he had many scars, was all shot up, same as my God Father. Glad they had great medical help or they would not have made it.

Would I double tap? No, I have no desire to kill someone, and if I ever had to shoot someone I would hope they would not die. It would be better to help a person than to kill a person.

My cousin is a cop here or was he retired. Never pulled his gun in duty, he did however talk a few guys out of their gun. Ask any cop in Omaha, they know his name. He is very well respected, uses his head not his brawn.

Double Naught Spy
March 22, 2012, 05:18 PM
American soldiers render aid to thier enemies, it's what seperates us from everybody else, especially our enemies.

mmkay.

And I believe, and so did General Petraeus, that when you render aid to a fallen Taliban fighter, you are showing why we are different than the Russians or the English, and therefor contributing greatly to the eventual succes in Afghanistan.

I don't think your message is getting through. The atrocities committed seem to outshine providing medical aid.

DasGuy
March 22, 2012, 06:54 PM
Fighting a war and defending your life from an attacker as a civilian are two completely different things.

OEF-Vet
March 22, 2012, 07:19 PM
A bit off topic but they call us combat vets heroes. I don't feel like a hero but combat medics and surgeons are then a heroes' heroes, superheroes if you will. I've seen medics run into a fight without a regard for their own safety to aid a downed warrior. Without the surgeons I would have a few less buddies for sure.

Thanks for the work you folks do and Godspeed.

Nnobby45
March 22, 2012, 09:28 PM
So my point is, a bullet hurts no matter the caliber, and when people get caught up on calibers and forget that even a .22 to the chest center mass can kill, then you might be developing a false sense of confidence that your caliber big iron will absolutely drop someone when you pull the trigger

I like your post and agree with most of it, but I don't think anybody believes that a .22 to the chest can't kill, and no one I know chooses a SD weapon just because, under the right circumstances, it MAY do so.

If Bubba dies a day later, one hour, or one minute after he's shot me, after I shot him first, then that's little consolation. I'm not concerned so much with whether he dies---more so that he's stopped from hurting me.

Choosing a caliber/bullet combination that has been shown to work consistently well on the street doesn't give me a false sense of confidence, since, as you mentioned, nothing is a sure thing. And the best weapon/ammo doesn't give me a false sense of confidence. Just lot more. :D

Yes, I have to do my part--we all do. There are no Talismans.:cool:

TheRoadWarrior
March 22, 2012, 11:18 PM
"eventual succes in Afghanistan"

SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

SPEMack618
March 23, 2012, 07:20 AM
OEF-Vet- I'll echo you 100%.

TheRoadWarrior- I can understand that, I ceertainly can, but I just look back on what I did there, what my guys did there, whay my friends did there, and think it was all for naught.

Nnobby45
March 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

You sit in the same place as many in your profession before you. What you experience in an emergency medical environment takes place whether your side is winning or not--including your fatalistic out take on things.

PH/CIB
March 24, 2012, 09:37 PM
Combat Medics going into firefights not to take lives but to save lives knowing full well that the enemy will be trying to kill them and the Soldier on the ground they are trying to save. Doctors and Nurses where the Soldiers are Medivaced to, all day every day for their Tour of Duty working in blood and gore on Men in agony and horrible pain, some they will save and give them joy and hope, some will die…As an ex Combat Soldier I do not know if I could take that every day, Thank God there are Brave Men and Women in the Medical Field who can.

As far as the Mission goes, you have no idea of how Proud we are of all of you and how Thankful we are to all of you. Winning the Hearts and Minds is tough when you invade a country like Viet Nam or Iraq or Afghanistan, totally different people and culture, expected to welcome us with open arms and accept our culture while the enemy is of their own people and is willing to kill them if they do not support them. Yet we did win Hearts and Minds in Nam and I am sure in Iraq and Afghanistan, I knew when we pulled out American Air Support and Artillery that it was just a matter of time in Nam before the government fell. It broke my heart in 1975 when Saigon fell and I saw thousands of Vietnamese trying to get through the gate and fence at the US Embassy and on the helicopters. And then the Boat People from Viet Nam and the treatment of the Vietnamese and Laotians and Cambodians we had left behind. Over 58000 Men gone, the real Heroes who never came home, if they could only have seen the fall of the Berlin Wall, the freedom of the former countries of the Soviet Union, the basic fall of Communism, our trade with China, sure we have problems in the US today, but those Men did not die in vain!

Our Men and Women in Uniform are our Finest Citizens and our most Idealistic Citizens of all,,,Soldiers fight for the most Noble of reasons and causes, unlike our Politicians and those who profit from wars…

Our most important job as Citizens of this Country is to be forever vigilant about our own government and their reasons for wanting war,,,to fail is to let down our Country’s most important asset, our Soldiers.

ROADWARRIOR,,,OEFVET,,,SPEMACK618 and all of our Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, no matter what happens to those countries in the future, You went with the most Noble and Idealistic of Causes, America’s Security, and Freedom and a Better Life for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, YOU ARE ALL HEROES! Just like in Nam you never failed us, our Soldiers never do, I wish I could say the same for our Politicians and We the People back Home.

BGutzman
March 25, 2012, 06:08 PM
SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

We fight for our country, yes and we also fight for the man or woman next to us... Victory isnt always winning the war but sometimes its just making sure you and your team make it back to whatever FOB at the end of the mission.

We dont go back for our dead because of some stuip law or rule... we go back becuase they are our brothers and sisters in arms and as much as we may or may not like the person who went down they are one of us...
Some people like to think there are no winners but the truth be told you can either fight the fight over there or over here... Yes, were not going to change a society that still lives like its the 2nd Century BC but what we are accomplishing it the firm impressing that messing with our nation has severe consequences and unlike much of the rest of the world we can and will kick someones butt for messing with our nation....we can never win like WWI or WWII with all the rules the politicans make us fight with and politically castrated generals dont override and only add more too... but were still no joke as a military..

trex1310
March 26, 2012, 09:38 PM
There isn't a chance in the hot place that I would render aid to a person I just shot.

When confronted with a situation, I will give that person every opportunity to stay alive. When force is the only option, I will lay fire on that guy until there is no sign of resistance. At that point, in my philosophy, the person I shot is just going to have to hope that I missed the vitals, and that he's luckier than I am.

I wasn't given a choice about whether or not to shoot him, and I'm not going to interfere with whatever fate has in store for him.

I'm going to back the heck away, avoid his probably infected blood and tissue samples, not put myself within spitting distance, take care of my family, and protect myself.


Amen. I agree with you 100%.

egor20
March 26, 2012, 09:47 PM
Thank you Sir for your Effort and Duty.

BMCS (SW/DV) Ret.

Sleuth
April 6, 2012, 08:39 PM
TRW, thank you for your service to our country.

As for approaching a downed person, there are any number of things to keep in mind:
1. are they shamming, to draw you in close?
2. Where are you in relation to the person, cover, and his gun?
3. Can you approach from a safe direction?
4. Can you neutralize him (cuffs, rope, whatever)? He may be out now, but revive and be really upset with you.
5. How can you help him best - getting trained people there vs. your level of training and equipment to deal with the situation ?
6. Could you be destroying or moving evidence that could help you - or him?
(added) 7. How good are you at evaluating his condition? Is he dead, unconcious, or playing possum?

I have given this a lot of thought, as we live remote, and response time around here runs 45 min. at the best! On the other hand, I have some training in field treatment of GSW and keep advanced med supplies on the ranch and in my cars.

And I would never apologize for shooting someone - it was his actions that made me do it in the first place, and now I can expect to spend $50,000 even if I am innocent and can prove it. I would say nothing except that needed to assure my safety and help treat him if I chose to do so.

Edited to add:
8. On TV, crooks either resist totally or obey every command perfectly. In real life, they do anything but. Crooks train in prison to say "Stop hurting me!" while they try to kill you.
9. What do you do when the downed person does not speak any language you do?

Murdock
April 8, 2012, 10:52 AM
TRW: Come home safe, brother.

We render aid to our military enemies for two reasons.

First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.

Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind. When the transitional psychotic experience of war ends, it is important for our warriors to return to civilization and their homes and families as human beings who are not ashamed of what they have done in the name of our country. Showing mercy to a military enemy -- when appropriate -- facilitates this transition. We can be warriors who must kill without being killers. Mostly. Hopefully.

In WWII Europe and North Africa, there were documented cases of medics of either side risking their lives to render aid to the enemy's wounded on the battlefield. Actions like this make an eventual transition to peace thinkable, which can invite the losing side in war to give up sooner. The Japanese on the other hand fought a war of no quarter in the Pacific, and received one in kind. There was a much wider racial and cultural gap between the Japanese and the Americans than between Americans and Germans or Italians. Thirty percent of the US Army fighting in Europe was of German extraction to some degree.

Afghanistan? My only Afghani friend told me -- long before 9/11-- that the reason he immigrated to America is that we can disagree about stuff here without somebody pulling a Kalashnikov. Afghanistan has always has been very violent culture. We can't change it, but we can -- and have -- stopped them from exporting religious murder to the rest of the world. For now anyway.

A sociopathic, home-invading felon lying on my floor bleeding out? It's good legal and psychological strategy to render aid, but only if safe to do so. He dealt the cards, and frankly doesn't have the moral stature of a battlefield enemy. I'll be sure to tell the cops that I want him arrested whether he bleeds to death or not.

Double Naught Spy
April 9, 2012, 08:50 AM
First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.

What evidence is that? "...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous.

Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind.

Providing aid isn't the same thing as not killing.

Not in our core nature? Interesting conclusion given that we have been doing it for thousands of years (indiginously documented, the earliest being 2700 BC between Sumer and Elam) and longer (documented via archaeological evidence).

As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.

Obviously, humans killing humans goes on all the time even in "peaceful" societies. It is hard to explain away something as not being in our nature when we do it so often and even on mass scales. It is certainly in the nature of society.

Murdock
April 18, 2012, 07:31 AM
As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.

Actually, Grossman's work was what I had in mind when I wrote that comment. In his book On Killing he relates an incident wherein he verbally disciplined one of his subordinates (IIRC he told the soldier he would shoot him himself) if that soldier thought he could kill a prisoner. He articulated that committing such acts stiffened the enemy's will to resist and made the task of defeating him more difficult.

"...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous. Once again I have to remind myself that when I attempt to use irony or sarcasm in a discussion it often fails to be appreciated as such.:D

The Marines taught me that it's easy to be hard but it's hard to be smart. We should be both as needed.

DAS9mm
April 19, 2012, 03:45 AM
Very interesting post.

I'm a physician too. Regarding treating the perp just shot in a SD scenario, I am in my home. What can I do? I have some 4x4s in my bathroom and some bacitracin ointment. But seriously; in this scenario the other person has several 9mm SD rounds in his chest. Am I going to needle his chest with the barrel of a ballpoint pen? Auscultate with my spare stethoscope? Start CPR? Call 911, retire to safety, and let the police and EMS do their thing.

As a civilian hypothetically involved in a shooting, this is a one off emotionally traumatic event. Would I even by mentally or emotionally capable of rendering aid? Compare this to a soldier in an army that has been at war for 10 years. Probably not the first person he's shot, not the last, nothing but work, work, work. Very different scenarios.

Denezin
April 19, 2012, 02:01 PM
TRW ty for serving! This is a very good read. And another thing to add is you can never tell where a bullet or pellet may ricochet striking someone else. Had a friend and her uncle died because he let his brother borrow a .22 and the brother was cleaning it and it went off. went through an entire house ricocheting off a frying pan and hit him dead center of the chest. he didnt die immediately and actually talked to his family for a few mins before death.

Sleuth
April 19, 2012, 04:56 PM
Some years ago at a range in Texas, a pistol bullet hit a steel target support, bounced off another piece of steel overhead framing, penetrated the steel roof of the office and killed a teenager who was standing there with his father.

IZZY
April 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
As far as the rest... gotta check your local laws. I have a feeling this is a huge grey area in most places. I'm not so sure you'd be covered by Good Samaritan laws since you caused the injuries. In googling trying to find some answers I did find that Minnesota at least requires you to give "reasonable assistance," however you interpret that.

Quote:
A person who discharges a firearm and knows or should know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person must immediately investigate the extent of the injuries and render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person. A person who violates this duty is subject to criminal penalties that vary according to the extent of the shooting victim’s injuries. A person who witnesses a shooting incident is subject to the same duty to investigate and render aid and is also subject to criminal penalties for failing to do so. Minn. Stat. § 609.662
IMO legally and morally you're probably better off helping if at all possible, even if it isn't required. If the DA decides to charge you, sitting there and watching while the BG bleeds out isn't going to help your case.

Yep MN is a different place, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, but would not calling an ambulance ( or requesting one on the 911 call) be considered "rendering aid" to a gunshot wound for most non medical professionals?

certainly going on record as requesting an ambulance ( would be sent in any case) is a positive thing to do in such a negative cultural environment ( e.g. media lynchings). I also happen to think it IS the right thing to do. And I presume that everyone here would at least do that.

Sleuth
April 20, 2012, 10:44 AM
As a former Fisrt Responder (local Volly Fire Department), we were not allowed on scene until the Sheriff's Deputies had secured the scene. It was sometimes frustrating, as we would arrive 15-20 min. before the SO.

DAS9mm
April 26, 2012, 09:14 PM
Yep MN is a different place, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, but would not calling an ambulance ( or requesting one on the 911 call) be considered "rendering aid" to a gunshot wound for most non medical professionals?

certainly going on record as requesting an ambulance ( would be sent in any case) is a positive thing to do in such a negative cultural environment ( e.g. media lynchings). I also happen to think it IS the right thing to do. And I presume that everyone here would at least do that

You do not request an ambulance. You tell 911 that someone tried to kill you and you defended yourself. Your assailant was shot. You are really scared that there might be more BGs, please send the police! The 911 operator will send EMS and LEOs.

iwas1ncthr
April 27, 2012, 04:21 AM
Navy Docs were almost like "gods" in the Corps. A Marine would take a round to save the life of a Doc in a heartbeat knowing that this Doc being alive means that more of his Marine brothers will survive. You posted a wonder example and although very graphic and detailed, I think people need to see it in true black and white like the way you presented it. I happened to see the result of an insurgent who was hit by a .50cal SLAP round and it was right then and there I never questioned the validity of whether or not a sniper rifle bullet could cut a human being in half because I had now see the result and effect up close and in person. When thinking about the whole "SHTF" scenario, my wife asks me what kind of weapons we should have. I told her that one of the most under looked weapons to have in your arsenal is a nice high power pellet rifle for hunting small game to not only conserve ammo, but also to keep quiet if you do not have a "can" on your other weapons. But with that I also have the other rifle I believe a person could never do without being the trusty Ruger 10/22. Now, the 10/22 I built for my wife is all tricked out with the Timney trigger, the fluted threaded bull barrel along with the raptor rifle stock but in all fairness, the amount of ammo you can carry with this weapon is nuts. My toss up between the AR 15/10 is exactly that, in the air. Price wise the .223 is much better but the .308 is both a wonderful weapon for laying down possible suppressive fire as well as being a precision sniper rifle as long as you carry the extra upper. That's the thing I love about the AR platform. So many people seem to forget that you can carry more than 1 upper for a variety of needs. You could for example have the short barrel upper with the 4 rails system built up for CQC. The Eotech sight, the green laser, for end grip etc... IF your lower has the PRS Magpul as the butt stock, you can swap out the upper with a 24" fluted target barrel that already has your optic fixed on it, maybe a bi-pod up front and then you can add the mono pod on the Magpul to have a complete sniper rifle. Like I said though, I just have not decided which round I would want as the primary rifle or if building one of each with 2 different uppers would suffice. I have always had that .338 Lapua Mag in the back of my head ever since Savage built that new one being offered for around $1200. Buy a nice H-S Precision stock, add a nice Leopold Mk4 and now you not only have the ultimate in long distance sniper systems but you also have one heck of an anti material weapon as well. Think taking out vehicles heck even choppers if they ever became a threat. I know, I know, doom and gloom and while all that 12/21/2012 stuff IMO is a bunch of rubbish as far as that being the exact date, I do believe that our generation may very well live to see some thing come to pass that no other one ever has nor ever will. With guns as you said, that big .50cal could end up being a hole puncher where the intended threat lives to fight another day while that .22 cal pellet rifle that shoots at 1500fps enters a person temple area or eye socket and ends their life. Sorry my post is so long and for sounding like a dooms day fanatic. Hope people enjoy and I would be very interested in opinions concerning what I have brought up.

TheRoadWarrior
May 5, 2012, 02:13 PM
I was once there: thanks for you support. You bring up a good point of not completely disregarding the smaller caliber carbines in combat, I think there are documented Israeli Mossad engagements with .22 pistols. I have a Colonel that works with me that says that he has heard of many Israelis run up and just unload the clip into your head or chest. Again, enough of any caliber and in the right spot can ensure death if you just keep shooting until they are confirmed dead, but taking a shot and then checking to see if they are dead with any caliber often times will not have the result you were hoping for. Any hunter probably has that story about the deer or random animal they swear they made a kill shot with that .30-06 or .308, only to chase the thing through the woods and find it dead hundreds of yards away. Just because the bullet hit center mass on where the animals heart should be, doesn't mean it hit their heart at all, it was just a higher probability of ending up there. Ribs love to deflect things in angles that sometimes don't even make any sense. Sometimes you get left with some Kennedy bullet theory story because the pieces just don't add up.

Sleuth
May 5, 2012, 06:46 PM
The Mossad did use .22 Short pistols, but they specialized in assasinations. Their prefered technique was to come up behind the target on the street, and empty thier .22 short Barretta into the back of the targets head, the drop the pistol and casually walk away.

That is not combat!

Doc TH
May 5, 2012, 11:43 PM
Actually, the Israelis issued Beretta model 70 22LR (not short) to their sky marshals. The following account describes one (of two epsiodes of the use of the Beretta by Mordechai Rachamim) instance in which the Beretta was used against hijackers.

During the incident that took place in February of 1969, Israeli Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim engaged several heavily armed Arab terrorists as they attacked an EL Al airliner on a snow covered runway in Zurich. Despite the odds against him, the young Israeli sky marshal expertly used his issued Beretta Model 70 pistol to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists, moments before the Zurich Police arrived and took the remaining terrorists into custody.

Frank Ettin
May 6, 2012, 12:05 AM
...The following account describes one (of two epsiodes of the use of the Beretta by Mordechai Rachamim) instance in which the Beretta was used against hijackers....When posting something that purports to be an account of an actual event, it's good form to include a link or at least cite a source.

Doc TH
May 6, 2012, 02:19 PM
Tactical Weapons May 2009.
There have also been many threads on the Beretta model 70 in the Firing Line Forums that contain similar information.

Silent_Bob
May 7, 2012, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the first hand account, information, and practical advice.

Camar
May 27, 2012, 06:59 AM
War Surgery Experiences? Absolutely none.
Enlisted in USMC in 1963. We received First Aid with emphasis on Stop the bleeding, Clear the airway and Treat for shock. That is if a corpman was not present.
All of our First Aid training was as stated above even including our pre-deployment training for our turn in the barrel in Vietnam. I was a rifle sqd. leader and aided our corpman (we had 1 per plt.) when he got overwhemed with casualties. I have treated a sunken chest wound, intestines outside of the body cavity, assisted in 2 tracheotomies, and head wounds.
If I remember when we administered a tourniquet we placed a "T" with the wounded Marines blood on his forehead, and noted the time the tourniquet was placed.
For the sunken chest wound we wrapped his poncho around him to create an air tight protection.
Intestines outside the body cavity we poured water over the intestines and placed them back into his body.
Head wounds, we treated for shock, and I think that was about it.
When I assisted with the tracheomatamy, the corpman used a ballpoint pen for the breathing tube.
When the corpman administered morphine, he carried 1/4 gram serettes, he would stick the used serette for however many he used on the left lepel of the casualties uniform.
Medical evac. was fast, ever when we were under heavy fire day or night. I remember several occasions when along with the Medevac. came extra corpman to help on the ground because our corpman was overwhelmed.

On several occasions after we were taken out of the field I went over to our Battalion Aid Station (BAS) to see the status of some of my men. That place looked and smelled like a slaughter house. Literally blood and discarted bandages all over the floor. You were walking and slipping in the blood.
Don't ask me about the triage corner. All of our politians and citizens who get their rocks off spouting off lets (not them of course) go kill'em and let God sort them out spend a few minutes there.:mad:

Camar out.

Marquezj16
May 27, 2012, 07:21 AM
Thanks to everyone who served and to those still in service.

Anyone could be trained to pull a trigger and take a life. It takes a whole lot more to save one. Here's to the medics!