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TheRoadWarrior
March 14, 2012, 11:20 AM
I have the urge to put a light on my handgun for home defense, but I'm having second thoughts after a cop told me that they don't because the enemy just has to aim center mass on the light and game over. He preferred a separate light so you can aim freely and use the light when you need it, and also to be able to be stealthy, he said it is better to let your eyes adjust and look and listen for an enemy, get a bead on them and then shine the light. I may be inclined to agree with that idea, because I know my house best, where to get cover or hide, get the drop on someone coming up my stairs.

I also think about the possibility that the enemy has their gun drawn and finger on the trigger, I think I have the drop on them and shine the light in their eyes and it makes them panic and shoot wildly and rapidly before I can even get a shot off. Perhaps stealth would be best, just double tap them in the dark and ask questions later? My state has castle law. ;)

gnarSKYLER
March 14, 2012, 11:28 AM
Another reason I won't put a flashlight on my gun is that you have to point the gun at whatever you want to see? I don't know if you have kids, so what happens if your wife or significant other gets up at night to get a drink and you think it's an intruder? Handheld. Flashlights are the way to go

BarryLee
March 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
While I am by no means a tactical expert I do agree it is better to not have the light mounted on your gun. I think it provides more flexibility and just seems to make more sense to me, but again just my opinion.

Stooge
March 14, 2012, 12:26 PM
Also, if you turn a light on to find and identify a target, chances are it's going to let the bad guy find you before you find him.

My instructor gave me a tip, which i follow. I have a box of inexpensive light sticks next to the bed. If I hear someone up the hall, I grab a few, crack them and toss them out in the hall. This not only lets the bad guy know that someone is on to him. Many will flea at this point. But to get to you, the bad guy has to walk out into the light, with no idea where you are.

Twycross
March 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
I also think about the possibility that the enemy has their gun drawn and finger on the trigger, I think I have the drop on them and shine the light in their eyes and it makes them panic and shoot wildly and rapidly before I can even get a shot off. Perhaps stealth would be best, just double tap them in the dark and ask questions later? My state has castle law.

First, if you believe that somewhere in your house, somebody/s is waiting finger on trigger, why would you go search them out? Have you ever done any MOUT/house clearing exercises? I have. It's a nasty business. You can do everything right and still get shot.

The last part in particular is troubling. Killing an unknown, unthreatening person for the mortal offense of being in your house is a terrible idea, even if the law permits it. Maybe it's your daughter's boyfriend sneaking in/out. Maybe it's one of your family on a midnight run to the bathroom. Maybe it's your roommate, or the neighbor who broke in to inform you that your house is on fire (it's happened). You must be able to positively identify your target before you shoot.

As far as the light on/off the weapon goes, that's just personal preference IMHO.

Stooge
March 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
I agree you should not go looking for a bad guy in your home. Not only do you run the grave risk of running into an ambush yourself, there is a legal concern. Seeking out a bad guy in your house can make you appear as the aggressor. If you do have to shoot someone, you should absolutely make sure that its utterly and totally clear that it was in self DEFENSE.

As to shooting someone for just being in your house, I agree, partially. It kind of plays into the idea of not going on the hunt. If I'm awakened in the night by shattering glass or something of that nature, I arm myself first and foremost. My next action is to secure and gather my family into a defendable location...back bedroom, on the floor, behind the bed. Then I call 911 and wait for help to arrive. The gun only comes into play if someone comes down the hall and attempts to enter that bedroom. But if someone does come down that hall, they WILL get shot. I'm not going to endanger myself and my family by waiting to make a positive ID and seeing what his intentions are. It won't be a family member on a midnight stroll, as I will already have the family secured, which is my case is just my wife. If it's a neighbor coming to tell me my house is on fire, I'd have an expectation that as soon as he enters the house he's announcing his presence and yelling that the house is on fire. If he comes down the hall toward the bedrooms without announcing himself, well there's just going to be one less idiot in the world.

Of course that doesn't cover the home invasion scenario where someone just kicks down your door when everyone is up and about. You just have to play that one by ear, as there are way too many variations in the scenario to plan it out in advance. Of course, in that case, the aggressor is going to be pretty apparent and the threat immediate.

Lee Lapin
March 14, 2012, 03:21 PM
Nothing says you can't have a weapon mounted light and a hand-held light as well. Different lights, different jobs, different tactics. Get some training in low light shooting if you don't know how to use a weapon mounted light... and NEVER shoot at a target you have not positively identified as hostile.

Double Naught Spy
March 14, 2012, 04:07 PM
Another reason I won't put a flashlight on my gun is that you have to point the gun at whatever you want to see?

Yes, if you tape your 1960s vintage 2 celled (AA batteries) Eveready penlight (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-OLD-EVEREADY-PEN-LIGHT-WORKS-/390399986959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae5a70d0f) to your gun, then you may have to point your gun at what you want to see. If you have purchased a tactical light in the last 10 years, it will be bright enough to illuminate much of the room just be pointing it at the ground. A couple of mine are more than bright enough to illuminate things in front of me by pointing the light the opposite direction. Of course, you don't want to do this to backlight yourself, but today's lights are really much brighter and don't require being shown directly at somebody to identify tem inside of a typical home.

Handheld. Flashlights are the way to go

Of course, it can be hard to hold your gun, flashlight, and ... cell phone as you are dialing 911, staunching blood flow, trying to open doors/windows, manipulate your keys, give hand signals, carry your baby daughter, drag you wounded spouse to safety, etc.

I agree you should not go looking for a bad guy in your home. Not only do you run the grave risk of running into an ambush yourself, there is a legal concern. Seeking out a bad guy in your house can make you appear as the aggressor. If you do have to shoot someone, you should absolutely make sure that its utterly and totally clear that it was in self DEFENSE.

In many, if not most, states, there is no duty to retreat and intruders in your home can be considered a lethal threat whether you are looking for them or not.

Frank Ettin
March 14, 2012, 04:08 PM
In my most recent class at Gunsite we did a number of night exercises using a flashlight. The Gunsite perspective on a gun mounted light: they are good for shooting, but one still needs a flashlight for looking and seeing. Remember Rule Two of gun safety -- “never let the muzzle cover something you are not willing to destroy.” One needs to be able to illuminate something without pointing a gun at it

Stooge
March 14, 2012, 04:34 PM
In many, if not most, states, there is no duty to retreat and intruders in your home can be considered a lethal threat whether you are looking for them or not.

So you think that if you walk into a room at night and see a lone man carrying your TV set toward the front door, and you shoot him in the back, that all you have to do is hold up the castle doctrine and you're off scott free?

We have the castle doctrine here. But all it does is remove the requirement to RETREAT. You can stand your ground. It does NOT authorize you to go hunting anyone you find in your home, without cause. So says my attorney. And as someone else already said, I'll take her advice over internet opinions.

Frank Ettin
March 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
Application of a State's Castle Doctrine and/or whether there can be a duty to retreat is off topic for this thread.

A primary reason not to go looking for a suspected intruder (unless absolutely necessary in order, for example, to get innocents to a place of safety) is that it puts you at an extreme tactical disadvantage. And in any case, you will still want a light source if you wait in a safe room.

m&p45acp10+1
March 14, 2012, 05:05 PM
I remember reading about a police officer that ended up shooting a suspect trying to actuate the weapon mounted flashlight. I will not get into it a whole lot.

For me I prefer a light that is not mounted to my handgun. I am not a police officer, I am not military. I do not wish to pretend that I am one. I live in a small duplex. I have a dog. If he starts going balistic, the first thing that is happening is the house lights, and porch lights are getting turned on. I will be in my bedroom behind the bed with my girlfriend and my shotgun. She will do tne calling. I speak this as a matter of personal choice.

The only thing in the past near 3 years that has gone bump in the night in my aprtment has been me bumping into something on my way to the refrigerator.

TenRing
March 14, 2012, 06:22 PM
I went through this thought process several times and each time I came to the conclusion that a weapon mounted light is likely to cause more trouble than benefit. My 3D Cell LED Maglite is separately held in my support hand and it is bright enough to temporarily blind and disorient an intruder. I won't use the light unless I have the decided tactical advantage because it shows the intruder which direction to spray his bullets. If he had the mindset to break in, I can't count on him leaving just because he saw my light.

It's my house and I care who gets hurt. The intruder is presumably prepared to shoot indiscriminately if it means avoiding capture. The less visual and sound information you give him, the better off you're going to be.

The concept of a safe room is good but the concept goes literally up in smoke if the perp starts a fire in your house. Many times perps will start fires to cover up their crimes. Google it. You can't afford to wait patiently behind the bed not knowing what mayhem the home invader is creating for you downstairs. The sooner you get him and his partners out, the better for you and yours. That's why the Castle law is so important. When you're at home, there is nowhere else for you to run. Find the threat and neutralize it but do it to your advantage. It's your castle, not his.

Frank Ettin
March 14, 2012, 06:42 PM
...Find the threat and neutralize it but do it to your advantage...The reality is that there is no way to go looking for the threat that is to your tactical advantage. If there really is someone there who means you no good and is willing to engage you, he will be the one with the element of surprise.

You may have to go out looking if there are unaccounted for innocents, but otherwise, solo house clearing is generally a bad idea.

(a) If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one BG, one of whom can get to your family while you're occupied with the other one.

(b) When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.

There used to be an annual event called the National Tactical Invitational at which some 130 of the top security people and firearm trainers gathered, by invitation only, to test skills and examine tactics. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the "Good Guy" must clear a house against a single "Bad Guy." During the first six of these annual events, only one "Good Guy", in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these were highly skilled, highly trained instructors/operators.

These are some past threads on the subject. You'll notice that in general the folks who have had training and/or done this sort of thing for a living recommend against solo clearing unless absolutely necessary.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317285

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314788

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328646

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365308

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383046

TenRing
March 14, 2012, 06:57 PM
Interesting. I'm not one of those experts but I have had some training and I don't do this for a living, nor would I want this type of job.

Even so, each year there are lots of ordinary citizens around the USA and literally dozens each year around metro Detroit who do survive these house clearing scenarios. This is a regularly reported event around here and it is not unusual at all.

I think those who do this successfully know that they have an advantage in their particular case. Otherwise, I doubt that they would take unnecessary risks. I wouldn't do it unless I knew that I had an advantage and I won't always have it but sometimes I will.

Frank Ettin
March 14, 2012, 08:00 PM
...each year there are lots of ordinary citizens around the USA and literally dozens each year around metro Detroit who do survive these house clearing scenarios....Really? I'm aware that ordinary citizens have managed to successfully handle intruders. However, I have not seen any reports of ordinary folks successfully undertaking a true, solo house clearing, i. e., a situation in which the householder suspects that there is an intruder in the house, the householder goes looking for the intruder, and there is in fact an intruder in the house willing to engage the householder. And I challenge you to provide reliable, published report of such actually having taken place.

This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3104214&postcount=1) describes a time in which it didn't work out too well for the householder.

...I think those who do this successfully know that they have an advantage in their particular case. Otherwise, I doubt that they would take unnecessary risks. I wouldn't do it unless I knew that I had an advantage and I won't always have it but sometimes I will. Actually, those that do this sort of thing do it only because the situation requires them to. The person who goes looking will never have the advantage. For example, see --

This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3108346&postcount=78):...I am technically one of the trained professionals that would deal with a bump in the night or a silent alarm. I have done force on force training where a BG is in a warehouse and you are tasked with investigating it. It was a 50/50 split on the number of times I had a chalk cartridge make contact with my body. I was told that I was better than most at doing it...


This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3109135&postcount=93):To those advocating clearing your house on your own, I strongly suggest getting some FOF experience at a reputable training center. Nothing drives home the point of how dangerous it is better than getting repeatedly shot with Simunitions for 8 hours.

I have also been trained in building clearing, and I absolutely will not do it unless I have no other choice. "No other choice" in this context is defined as either my wife or child is on the opposite end of the house from me with a BG between us.


This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3083959&postcount=22):Okay, off the top. I have been trained to clear houses. Will I do it without at least three buddies who are good at it? Oh heck no. Will I do it solo if I can get away with not doing it? Absolutely not.

When you go room-room in a clearing exercise you are entering into an aggressor/defender situation. Sure its your home, but when you are going room to room you are the one who is aggressing. You are moving and making noise all the while the person you are trying to clear out will most likely stay static and listen and watch. When he sees you in the poor light, he will be better able to engage you before you will see and engage him. Ask any LEO how they feel about house clearing....


This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3088057&postcount=49):I've been through house clearing training (Tactical Defense Institute) and night-time use of flashlight. Two points.

First, I would not attempt clearing my own house, let alone one I was visiting, unless there were visitors at risk (normally only my wife and I are present). Going through a live-fire house shooting at bad-guy targets is one thing. Going through my own house risking getting shot by a bad guy is something else entirely. Assuming it's a night-time invasion, I'd stay in the bedroom, call 911, and shoot anyone who tries to get in. If it's during the day, I have guns located around the house. I'd get one, call 911, then let the bad guy come to me....


This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3104956&postcount=87):I took a class that taught room, hallway, and stairway clearing in low light conditions. I am NOT a professional, but here's what I took from the experience:

* The homeowner is at a disadvantage the moment he begins clearing.

* Get off a staircase, or die. You break too many planes at once and it really requires a partner to do properly.

* The intruder generally knows you're there when you begin to clear.

...

Despite having instruction, I would NEVER voluntarially clear my house....


This post (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3570200&postcount=17):...Despite being well trained in building clearing in a prior career/life, it's high on my list of things not to do unless absolutely necessary, and the only reason I would consider it necessary is if I have to do it to get to my daughter. Clearing a building by yourself is a great way to get yourself killed,...

TenRing
March 14, 2012, 11:20 PM
Your points are well taken and well understood. We just have a difference of opinion and that's fine. Since you challenged me to find one published incidence of a homeowner clearing his house, here's one.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/canton-homeowner-shoots-intruder-in-the-leg-20111012-ms

As I stated in an earlier post, there are many more examples and they are easy to find. I just posted the first one I found. You may say that this example doesn't meet the strict definition of "clearing a house". I say that when a homeowner wakes up from a nap, arms himself and confronts multiple intruders, he has cleared his house. The news reports don't relate each minute detail of the incident, but I think this is sufficient to illustrate my point.

I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm just making the point that homeowners clear their own houses on a routine basis, notwithstanding the advice of the experts.

Frank Ettin
March 14, 2012, 11:39 PM
...Since you challenged me to find one published incidence of a homeowner clearing his house, here's one.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/canton-homeowner-shoots-intruder-in-the-leg-20111012-ms

As I stated in an earlier post, there are many more examples and they are easy to find. I just posted the first one I found. You may say that this example doesn't meet the strict definition of "clearing a house". I say that when a homeowner wakes up from a nap, arms himself and confronts multiple intruders, he has cleared his house....Nope, I don't buy t this as "house clearing."...Two men managed to unlock the door and head inside. Both started up the stairs, but they were met by the owner, who happens to be a bail bondsman and had his service weapon in hand.

When the intruder reached for his weapon, the homeowner said he fired his several times.... It's one thing to be present at the time, and close to the point, of entry and confront an intruder then and there. It's quite another to suspect that there is an intruder somewhere in the house and to then go searching for him.

TenRing
March 15, 2012, 12:44 AM
Nope, I don't buy t this as "house clearing."
Well, there were multiple home invaders who broke into the man's house and he confronted them, wounded one and held him for police and ran the other off. Existentially, the house was cleared of intruders as a direct result of the homeowner's actions.


It's one thing to be present at the time, and close to the point, of entry and confront an intruder then and there. It's quite another to suspect that there is an intruder somewhere in the house and to then go searching for him.
Wow! Now it really gets interesting. The homeowner could not have known how many intruders were in his house unless he was psychic. He had to decide whether it would be better to go search and investigate or to stay put. He decided to go search and he found them near the stairway. Would you have felt better if the homeowner had stayed put and called 911 as the thugs rushed into his bedroom to kill him? Mind you, this was a forced entry by at least two perps in broad daylight. It was not a case of investigating a
bump in the night at 3 AM. This was only one example of many available. As I stated before, this type of thing is a very routine occurrence in metro Detroit and other areas of the country.

It seems that you were trained to accept only a narrow definition of house clearing and that house clearing looks a certain way and that it must only be done by certain people. It is different in each case with different people under different circumstances. There are no rules when one if fighting for one's life. When you force the thugs, rapists, thieves and methheads to leave your house, your house is clear.

gnarSKYLER
March 15, 2012, 01:12 AM
Post deleted.

Double Naught Spy
March 15, 2012, 01:46 AM
Are you really going to walk around the house with your gun mounted flashlight turned on pointed at the ground? I would prefer to have my gun in a more ready position. Call me crazy.

Okay crazy, since you don't want a light on your gun because you don't want to point your gun and whatever you want to see, just where is your gun going to be pointed should you be clearing your own home?

Not only will my light and gun be pointed at the ground, the gun will be in a "more ready" position. In fact, that position is called...wait for it...the low ready position.

So as to not cover things with the muzzle (such as loved ones located in the home, either in direct view or behind walls), but still have the gun in a ready position, your options are fairly limited to low ready, high ready, indoor ready, or any number of their variants. From high ready, your gun mounted light will be reflecting off the ceiling. Generally speaking for the interiors of most homes, walls and ceilings tend to be lighter colors or white, especially the ceilings. As such, you can often light up a room even better from high ready than from low ready given that carpets and floors are often darker colors that the ceiling.

While not quite as ready as high or low ready, indoor ready allows you to navigate confined spaces without sweeping other people. It also has your gun and the gun's light pointed to the ground.

TheRoadWarrior
March 15, 2012, 03:24 AM
Thanks for the great advice everyone. I am military so I tend to want to clear my house and pretend I'm kicking down a door in Afghanistan...problem is that I don't have my battle buddies behind me...and I'm not wearing interceptor body armor....and I don't have an automatic weapon...

I have a two story, bedrooms are the only rooms upstairs. I have gone through emergency plans with my family, from fires to environmental disasters...even a zombie outbreak lol, but mostly intruder response. My tactic was to gather the kids and wife in the daughter's room because the window opens out on to the garage roof which can then safely permit a soft landing to the grass below, and since its a duplex it can also mean climbing to the neighbors roof and yelling for help if need be. I even have the emergency fire ladder there so if you have to climb down to the grass below it can be done safely.

My tactic was only thinking of myself having the upper hand since I can keep the lights out at the top of the stairs and wait to see if the BG has violent intentions, or just taking my TV and running away. I had it in my mind that if someone comes up the stairs unannounced and my family are accounted for, then they must be hostile, so I did not have qualms about opening fire at that point. I did however realize with all of your help that I should be behind that door, behind the bed with gun aimed at the door, the wife is calling 9-11 on the floor with the kids, not waiting at the top of the stairs in ambush like I'm Chuck Norris or something.

I'm deployed, so that is what I told my wife to do anyway. It was just me and my ego that thought I could be a ninja and get the drop on someone. But when I'm back home, I will have my mossberg 12 gauge and the wife will have my CZ aimed at that door, I pity anyone that tries to come through that door!

Frank Ettin
March 15, 2012, 05:00 AM
...The homeowner could not have known how many intruders were in his house unless he was psychic. He had to decide whether it would be better to go search and investigate or to stay put. He decided to go search and he found them near the stairway...He didn't "go search." He responded promptly to a noise and was lucky enough to meet the intruders just as they were making their way into the house. Luck has a lot to do with these things.

Even if it pleases you to think of what this householders did as "house clearing", his situation was a good deal different from "bump in the night" situation, and presented different problems and opportunities. If one is there and armed at, or near, the time and place of first entry, he has a chance to deal with the problem one way. If he becomes aware of the possible problem a bit later, after the intruder has gained entry and established his presence and control of a part of the house, the householder's problem, and best tactical response, is quite a bit different.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 15, 2012, 08:06 AM
I personally like a separate light myself, mostly because I use the light a lot more than the pistol in everyday more mundane tasks. Having said that, there are several modern pistol lights that mount by 1913 rails that you can slide on and off the pistol in a couple of seconds. So it is quite possible to have a weapon-mounted flashlight but use it as a separate flashlight if you desire to do so; but you now have the option of a weapon-mounted pistol light if you decide you need it.

And that is one thing that I think gets missed in the discussion of flashlights and firearms is that it is about options. A flashlight gives you options you don't have without it. A flashlight that can be mounted to the weapon does as well. Just because you have those options, you are not mandated to use them at all times. Nor are you required to surrender common sense concerning how they are used.

It seems a lot of times this discussion ends up boiling down to "Here are stupid things people do with flashlights, ergo, I will not use any flashlight at all." For some reason, we never spend much time on the "Don't do stupid things with flashlights" discussion, which would probably be more educational for everyone.

FAS1
March 15, 2012, 08:26 AM
Personally I don't have any weapons mounted lights, but there are more and more people using them. My handgun box is primarily used in homes for storing a HD handgun. Over the last 3 years the boxes sold with a holster for a handgun with a light has increased from about 10% of sales to about 20% today. In my home I feel I have the advantage in the dark and there should be no one wandering around in my house at night other than my wife. If I feel the need to iluminate an area it will be with my off hand with a hand held flashlight.

TheRoadWarrior
March 15, 2012, 11:31 AM
I think my urge to put a light on the gun is simply because it has a rail to put stuff on it, I succumb to what many military guys call "tacticool" addiction, just have to have every single little accessory and high speed do-hicky on their gun even if its not doing anything but looking cool.

I will stick with my plan of barricading the daughter's room and having an escape plan.

Zombies on the other hand...they might be attracted to a flashlight

ProShooter
March 15, 2012, 02:27 PM
Usually when this type of question pops up on a gun forum, 12 pages of arguing will follow...

I always advise my students not to attach flashlights, lasers or bayonetes (:eek:) to their defensive handguns. That's just my .02...your mileage may vary..

and yes, I said bayonets.....

http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/c/pistol_bayonet_540.jpg

TheRoadWarrior
March 15, 2012, 10:39 PM
yeah, bayonets are tacticool, not tactical, unless of course it is zombies.

I think a large part of my urges to buy crap is from my peers in the service. Many of these guys just buy stuff to 1-up their buddy and show off.

WarWolf
March 16, 2012, 03:06 AM
Oh how i've stayed at the gun range far to long talking about this subject.
I think it comes down to personal preference. For me i like the idea of both. But i actually have a TLR3 on my gun at home. and although it does show whatever you're aiming at it also will light up the whole room.
I like it But i do agree about the "bad guy" aiming at the light. But i also think he's going to be kind of stunned and eyes not adjusted.
also my TLR doesnt have the strobe on it. (because i'm always broke,haha)
And i think if you have that feature on the light thats even more time to identify the target. But on all of this i also don't have kids. and my feeling might be different on the whole thing then.
But as far as right now goes i could have 9mm or 00 buck and the only thing i could hurt is my walls.

garryc
March 16, 2012, 09:04 AM
This is one of my pet peeves.

1) A light on a gun is a target. It also removes independent mobility of the light. You cannot pan an area without moving your entire body. Learn to shoot one handed in the extended and tucked positions. Learn to shoot cross wrist and with your off hand held high. The light is also a weapon. Held in the had it is a strike weapon with a hammer blow. You can strike him with it if he jumps you at close range, then fire.

2) Use enough light! These cheap lights just don't get it. You want to blind him in a face on encounter. Also, it should be bright enough that if you pitch it to the ceiling it lights up the whole room. My Streamlight Stiron LED does that.

3) Screw house clearing!! That requires training. It also requires a partner to be done right. The only reason to cross that house is to protect your loved ones or get to the safe room. Your T.V. just isn't worth killing someone over, and especially putting yourself in the line of fire. (Besides, replacing floor because of a blood stain is likely more expensive) Leave house clearing to the pro's. Lets understand, he may fight you but when he sees those flashing lights outside the house and knows it some cops coming to get him he will likely give up.

.22lr
March 16, 2012, 09:15 AM
Re - bad guy shooting at the light:

I don't care! I will not fire a gun without being very sure of my target.

Iowan who wanted to surprise her fiance dies in accidental shooting (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117377)

Shooting dark shapes just because they are in your home, seems like a bad idea.

RE
I like two flashlights, on eon th epistol, and one in my hand. This way I have fewer worries about batteries, pointing a gun at something I do not wish to destroy, or Not having the flsahlight where I was sure i left it.. Also, if I need a free hand, I can still see.


VR

Matt

Edward429451
March 16, 2012, 09:31 AM
I like that idea of keeping a supply of lightsticks in the bedroom.

Clearing my own house sure would be easier with flashbangs. :D

Blindjim
March 16, 2012, 02:02 PM
Reading again that having an extra light or one not on the weapon is a good idea is something I agree with now. Although I still will have a light on my primary and secondary weapons. All are capable of imtermittent or prolonged operation by my choice.

I did acquire a bit of the ‘tacticwild’ flu not long ago… it’s OK I’m better now and bought one of those itty bitty one inch wide barrel and six inches long flashlights that put out enough light to embarrass the sun. 400 lumens reputedly, when on HIGH or STROBE. Two CR 123A batteries, and boy does it eat batteries, but then I do use it often outside of the house when I hear something that isn’t normal or something that is out of place and suspicious enough for me to investigate it.. $70.

I’ll not trust my life to it by thinking I can use it to disrupt, blind, or some even say, immobolize an assailant. It’s sole purpose is to help me save my own life. By using it’s reflective lighting, or by using it as a stabbing or hitting with weapon as a last resort. Actually if it comes to that I must be fighting a T5000 terminator, as he’ll get ten 12ga 00 buck, and fifteen .45cal 185gr JHP. With any luck at all he’ll slip on the wet floor where I’ve already voided as he approached and I can run away.

I’ll not attempt to catch another’s eyes and hope to blind them with some flashlight! That’s ridiculous.

My circumstances are a bit different than all of you fathers and mothers, I’m a bachelor and have no inside pets routinely.

In my state there is a ‘Stand your ground’ statute.

I am in fact legally blind too.

I have an alarm system with redundancy set up as well as exterior motion controlled area lighting. Even if the BG pulls the meter out of its can on the power pole my alarm system operates and dispatches by it’s built in battery back up and cell phone component.

I’ve also endured 3 violent attempts to enter my home these past months. 3 others while I was away briefly shopping or at church.

I do not wish to kill anyone. Ever. But with my visual impairment, IF I have the displeasure of a late night intruder, my plan is to disarm the sirens, asap, and await whatever comes to me.

If the sirens weren’t enough to run him/her/them off, I’ll likely not go towards what sounds I hear. They’ll be defeated so I can hear.

I hear pretty well.and the house is not huge. Hopefully, all I should hear is them exiting given the sirens recent bursts.

I’ve thought about this a lot and figured to loudly direct the ‘guest’ to hit the deck or die! What if these folks aren’t into taking orders? What then?

Then I came up with this plan… Wait. Listen. Stay calm. Prepare. And if the threat then approaches my position, I’ll use my lights to acquire and shoot them till there is no more movement or sound coming from it/them.

I know full well what I’ve just said and wonder why some of the words Ive used weren’t said by others. I’m not shooting to maim. Distract. Or ward them off. I’m playing for keeps. If I have to use my gun (s) ever, as I must presume they are willing to go to those lengths as well especially if they’ve violently or even covertly entered my home unannounced or without permission to do so.

AS a matter of fact…. One officer recently tried to by pass my civil rights and tried forceably to gain entry to my home!

Completely unannounced at that time, he simply walked up to my kitchen door and tried to force the door knob several times. No knock. No cell call informaing he was at my home or my door. Just tried to walk in like he owned the place.

I picked up my pistol I had at the table, and yelled out asking who it was with no immediate answer coming back to me…. I removed the safety and took more cover… and prepared for the worst.
Then a yell came, “POLICE!”, and nothing more.

I stood up to unlock the door with my pistol at the ready for I’ve still a legitimate doubt, and replied, “You better be a cop!” and commenced to unlock the door.

That situation almost came to a dire end. All because some Hot Rod cop figured he could forego his training and my rights to fulfill his interests.

It gets even wackier after that tenuous moment but I’ll refrain. The deputy was clearly in the wrong.

Not being able to see well enough as so many others posting here puts things into a different ‘light’ for me. After a couple shots I’ll not hear too well either. Consequently, I’m forced into a real mess.

From past expeirnces I’ll say this and shut up… IF a person is ‘dispatched’ let’s say… it sure ain’t like it is in the movies. They’ll be laying there for a while. A WHILE! Pics have to be taken, your statement, yada yada… THEN ‘they or them’ will get removed… along with you too… maybe. Usually not though, if the above scenario is the case.

Then you have to deal with the aftermath of it all… and that stinks just as much as did the event persipitating the shooting… but it lasts longer.

There’s been an immense amount of wisdom posted in just this thread. Enough to save lives. Or to not if one chooses to dismiss it.

I don’t care terribly for the idea of shooting to disable. I adhere to the notion if a gun is used do it in such a way as to entirely, completely and utterly halt whatever wrongfully intrusive thing that is there to cause you & you’rs harm.

then I'll juse my little tactical light so I don't stumble over the bodies... or the crooks might if I'm not quite so successful with my plan.

Nice thread.

GM1967
March 16, 2012, 09:46 PM
I’ll not attempt to catch another’s eyes and hope to blind them with some flashlight! That’s ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? I guess you've never had a bright flashlight shined in your face. It's quite easy to do, many modern lights are VERY bright, and at night in a darkened house when eyes are adapted to the dark, they are especially vulnerable.

I am in fact legally blind too.

Well, that might explain why it's ridiculous for you to try to blind someone, since you may not be able to see the person at all. But for those without a visual impairment, it's pretty easy and quick to guide a flashlight beam to their face. And with some lights, hitting their chest is enough to be painful and blinding.

garryc
March 16, 2012, 11:02 PM
My Streamlight Strion LED has a strobe mode. I had my wife blast me with it in the dark from 35 feet away. It is absolutely disorienting. I've used that function several times in the prison, works great.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Q3ywZZTUI

Jim March
March 17, 2012, 02:06 PM
I had to help clear an apartment complex parking lot of a really large Javalina a couple of nights ago, after full dark. More here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482715

The flashlight was critical in staying out of the critter's "personal space". I was able to herd it without scaring it into a charge. Decent backstops were few and far between. And with the light off the gun, I was able to leave the gun holstered, hand on it, flashlight in the other hand...didn't want to terrify any residents popping out who didn't yet know about the megapiggie.

I was by far the best equipped person present. I had the most potent gun (full-house 357) and a cheap dual-CR123-based flashlight with a "160 lumen" rating. Probably closer to 120 or 140 or so but it's good enough for my needs:

http://www.amazon.com/Duracell-Daylite-160-Lumen-Flashlight-Batteries/dp/B002FU6KEI

It's been tough over a year's daily carry, effective, oversize by a bit but a solid "thwacker" at either end if needed. Nice recessed tailcap switch. The downside: the "width" control is a joke, it's going to be a narrow-beam no matter what. And I do NOT want crap like strobes or multi-intensity-whatever switches - in an emergency I want straight-up on/off thank you!

Blindjim
March 17, 2012, 09:02 PM
GM1967


Well, there's that. Good point.

I often lose perspective as to how another with decent eyes can be influenced or distracted sheerly from the intensity of an immensely brillliant light. it does force one to turn away or hide their eyes somehow. Me too actually.

I've had the ability to fully use a very bright light as effectively as one probably could. So I have but a single train of thought as to the use of any light and that is to acquire and defeat an intruder with it.

My handheld is a Jetbeam... 400 lumens... lots of fill with an utterly intense beam on its highest setting. On it's lowest setting you could use it in a theater to look for your keys or something you dropped and not bother anyone else from it's spill. It has 4 levels. Tail button sw, with memory for the last used setting, or by using just the function sw a full on strobe which if held for a few seconds will then remain on until you switch it off. Aircraft aluminum and water proof. Got it from here

http://www.longhorntactical.com/JETBeam_s/159.htm

They don't show my model though. Guess lights are as quickly outdated as are i Pads.

Saw a review today saying many things about bulb replacements for Surefire and Streamlight, and dealextreme for the Ultrafire 501b and Hugsby flashlights.... at around $20 for 250 lumen you can mount or hold. I didn't save the link but it should be easy enough to Google for if 'Hugsby & review' are in the search terms.

Anyhow the fella at Longhorn Tac is very helpful and paitient... though some of thier offerings aren't too cheap. I'll vouch for the one I got is first quality though. its bounced off the floor more than a few times from a counter, table, bed, etc. and works flawlessly. usually you can wind up with 10 - 20% off and free shipping.

With loops, you can attach this light to a long gun... or shot gun too as you can with many of the Jetbeams.

moxie
March 18, 2012, 05:12 PM
Best advice I've heard here is to stay barricaded up, calling 911, with weapons at the ready.

If you MUST leave your barricade, I think it's a good idea to have low intensity nightlights throughout the house that come on when it gets dark. While these give you enough light to shoot by, they still might not provide enough to ID the target, which you must do before shooting. Once you've got the target covered, if necessary a quick flash from a bright flashlight held out by the weakside hand should take care of that problem. I agree that a weapon-mounted light makes you a brightly lit target.

A decent alarm system, like ADT, might obviate the need for any of these measures, and doesn't cost much more than some of the ultra-tactical lights now available. Defense in depth...

Blindjim
March 19, 2012, 01:03 PM
Good stuff... really.

I live in one of the 17 states that have a “Stand your ground” law. So, inside or outside of your home, or off your property (with a CCL), one has but to feel they are being put in jepordy of injury or loss of life and deadly force can be used to dispel whatever perceived danger

I’d submit unless the intruder is a skilled professional criminal, and perhaps even then, anyone breaking into a house has their nerves on edge already, pulse pounding, blood pressure soaring, and definitely on edge. Surprising someone with a light but not firing at them immediately is taking a chance I’d as soon allow someone else to take.

Usually, they’re there to take things outside of the home, tools, boats, or your car. Ordinarily, seeing a car tips ‘em off someone might be inside. Seeing that someone very well is inside and still desiring to enter should be enough info to indicate perhaps, they’re there for something considerably graver.

Too many things could happen and there’s absolutely no way of knowing what some junkie, crack head, or plain ol’ B&E fella will do once they know they are discovered!

Therefore I'd submit another perspective. IF you have instituted a monitored alarm system, or merely one which alarms you, or not. If you choose to figure you can just unveil a burglar with an off hand held light by flashing it briefly in the general direction of the invader and in that instance decidedly tell they are armed, or not with no further course of action in mind but to contain or hold for the police? Good luck with that.

Now that you’ve shone your light, well, now what?

But then, that’s taking a really big chance, isn’t it?

I’d say it is a dicey proposition at best to attempt to overcome or yikes! detain a threat that is now inside your home in the middle of the night.

If you can see a person without a light being cast into a suspect’s direction, there’s no need to display your light at all, except to acquire and dispatch them with it. No need to reveal your locale by yelling commands at them either.

If you do shine one even very briefly, it seems then too the opponent has an area or point of aim. Out of sheer surprise they could fire in your genral direction. Probably quite wildly and often! I’d as soon not be shot at generally or directly.

They may even shoot at your orders to drop to the ground…. Don’t move! Freeze! You’re covered! Or the sorts we’ve all heard one way or another.

Shine your light to discover only? Then, who's got who covered?

I'd submit using which ever tactic of displaying a bright light to 'identify' only, is sheer folly.

Be a light stuck onto my pistol and held away from my body entirely ready to fire, or one operated by my off hand makes no diff if you have no intention to fire in that moment.

I’d much rather have my light bearing weapon under control and when I light up the now aptly discovered ‘position discovered’ bad guy, pull the trigger almost immediately.

Nope. In a home or personal defense situation, lights or lasers are for acquiring and immediately disposing of your threat! I’m not Roy Rodgers, The Lone Ranger, or Batman.

No actions I or anyone should take with an intruder inside of their home should involve giving the ‘bad guy’ another chance… nope. They rolled the dice when they decided to enter your abode unlawfully, stealthily and perhaps violently.

As for me or someone else shooting a first responder, LEO, neighbor, or friend, doesn’t it seem logical that any of these people will be avidly, vociferously, and very likely enthusiastically announcing themselves so as to both alarm you and identify themselves as no threat??

If your home is in jepordy from flood or on fire, it should be first responders duty to assume they are at risk in such a scenario…. And should do everything they can to both alarm the home owner and protect themselves. So demonstrably identifying themselves seems a no brainer!

Bad guys, last time I checked don’t make a habit of doing that. The really really bad guys won’t be announcing themselves. Only the good guys will.

In such cases, law enforcement is not always going to be the ‘first responder’, most likely you will be it.

Naturally, my comments depend on prior knowledge of the whereabouts of your family, room mate (s), or guests. Under conditions where you know full well the current spots of those listed above when a home invasion takes place, following the above prescribed actions appear as a matter of course for insuring one’s safety and maintaining the integrity of your property.

True, there’s a time and place for brandishing blinding lights into faces of people without taking measures including the use of deadly force… just not in admittedly desperate situations.

.22lr
March 19, 2012, 01:36 PM
I'd submit using which ever tactic of displaying a bright light to 'identify' only, is sheer folly.

Identifying your target is pretty silly. How else would you accidentally shoot your fiancee the day before your wedding? (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5378626-504083.html)

Abrogation of one's duty to identify what / who they are shooting at, based on the target's loaction, is folly.

~Matt

Blindjim
March 19, 2012, 08:58 PM
Hi Matt

PERHAPS READING A BIT FURTHER INTO MY POST WOULD HAVE PREVENTED YOU FROM MAKING SUCH A MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION OF MY statement and it's INTENT.

I don't expect any family member, fiance, friend etc, to be breaking into my house... things might be different for others or yourself.

Give your fiannce a key!

Knowing what is being said is important if an intelligent response is to be made.

Taking pot shots at something out of context is both 'pure folly' and says something about whomever breaks in unprepared and pops off a drive by posting.

every situation is different... I expressed my own circumstances.... AND my feelings about exposing yourself and how little one can actually find out about some burgalar in a split seconds burst of light... not only that but a strong light will affect your eyes too..

The mere presence of a stranger in ones home yields the pressence of a possible threat, and in the case of a home which is alarmed and monitored as well, as so many are and is my own, and they are still on the premises informs me the likelyhood of things going south fast is a viable assumption.

Lights flashing and sirens screaming, and some person hasn't headed for the highway yet?... sounds like someone wants more than money jewelry electronics, drugs or guns to me.

BTW.... any known persons would have contacted me by cell, phone, and or just tapping or beating on my bedroom window most likely. Close ones too. Family members would all have access keys... and I'd know where my loved ones are... I suppose some remote circumstances could change things but it's doubtful.

True too, those who know how I feel about such matters, and know me, also know I own weapons... and am not afraid to use them. trust me, they all either knock loudly or call me from the driveway on their cells... that is of course, if I'm not already outside awaiting them.

Perhaps knowledge is key... identification is knowledge... and as I said, the displayed light determines or supports your belief the intruder is indeed a stranger.... OK. Then what... and naturally, the "then what" only applies IF they don't shoot you.... or their partners don't shoot you.

There's no time for all the supposed rhetoric being jotted down here to be filtered thru!

Capturing is better left to the pros...

keeping myself and my loved ones breathing is my duty.

Here's one other scenario for ya... what if the interloper very closely resemgbles one of your friends and you make such a mistake?

NOpe. There's always someone which will interject some wierd ... just won't happen... situation to attempt to poke holes in someone else' notions.

But then, you've probably not experienced someone kicking in your door or busting in your window... and not responding to your cries for them to ID themselves... or to leave.

Once you have.. you may change your mind. I have. Recently. several times and its why I own guns again. Even though law enforcement says I can shoot thru the door I still want to hesitate... and that too is wrong in that case. I should have shot. there was established precidence.

I take no pleasure in this... for me it's all just too real and I aim to be standing in the aftermath. Let other's take chances of misidentifying someone, or identifying the person whose shooting first... not me. My gun's light will be the next to last one they'll see depending on their religious beliefs.

However ... anyone can proceed whcih way they choose. I've no problem there. I simply feel there's contingencies some folks here might have missed or overlooked and why I posted as I did.

Good luck...

Frank Ettin
March 19, 2012, 11:22 PM
All the foregoing flummery aside, if one is considering shooting someone, he needs to identify his target. One might rationalize it however he wishes, and he might be sure that whoever he is going to shoot deserves it; but people have been wrong about such things before.

Blindjim
March 20, 2012, 04:59 AM
true enough... identification begins way before some incident takes place. it begins with planning, security, and having all on board actively participating in the plan.

Despite all of this .. despite everyone practicing together various scenarios... things can indeed turn out poorly.

We all have our very best efforts and ideas laid out in our minds, and prayerfully, all will turn out great and no one will encounter anything dramatic, but if so, the home owner, renter, etc, will prevail by sticking to his or her plans..

I have my own, and for me... its a good plan. I live alone, no pets, no kids, and some plants that won't make September.

the thing is this, RESULTS WILL ALWAYS VARY!! No matter what the plan likely is when stuff hits the fan.

Regardless, thinking ahead as is being done here by tossing around different perspectives and ideas is always a good thing to do in advance, no matter the path one winds up subscribing too.

Double Naught Spy
March 20, 2012, 06:55 AM
My Streamlight Strion LED has a strobe mode. I had my wife blast me with it in the dark from 35 feet away. It is absolutely disorienting. I've used that function several times in the prison, works great.

Several of my lights have strobes. While they may be disorienting to some (including the person behind the gun), some folks aren't really bothered by them. My kids like to use the strobe lights for dancing and running around stop action antics.

Who knows? Maybe you will get lucky and your bad guy will suffer a photosensitive epileptic seizure.

true enough... identification begins way before some incident takes place. it begins with planning, security, and having all on board actively participating in the plan.

I don't think 'identification' means what you think it means.

garryc
March 20, 2012, 07:01 AM
I don't have to worry about the dark too much, I have motion sensor light switches in my hallway.

rha600
March 20, 2012, 07:48 AM
I agree and disagree with both sides. One thing that someone pointed out is that it doesn't hurt to have two lights. one in your hand, and one on the gun. You don't HAVE to use the one on the gun but it's nice to have it just in case.

the way my house is laid out it's like a "V" my master bedroom is at the bottom of that "V" so anyone that might have come in through a bedroom window will need to come down the hallway from the right, and anyone from the living area will come from the left.

Sitting in the bedroom, behind the bed, on the phone with 911 will allow me a perfect view of the door to the master bedroom. I also keep at least one or two lights on in the house even at night. small lights, but enough that I can easily see at night. I have a revolver and a LED maglite in my nightstand. I also have the benefit of having hurricane windows. Ask anyone in Florida, the chances of someone breaking in through those is VERY slim. Fire departments don't like them because even they can't get into a house through them without some extreme measures.

In the living room I have a PX4 with a streamlight on it as the patio on the back of the house is off that room and the backyard is not very well lit. yet. We live on a lake so in case something comes up out there I have, again, both a handheld and a gun light. If I did identify someone, regardless of what light, I could easily flip on the gun light, drop the handheld and use that hand to then dial 911. Now if I've only got a handheld light, how am I supposed to dial 911 while holding the gun and the flashlight? Or do I drop the gun to dial? do I drop the hand held flashlight so I'm now in the dark again?

And before anyone says it, no, I'm not calling 911 on every sound I hear in the backyard just for them to come out because of a big bad raccoon or opossum that wants to eat one of my tomatoes. haha.


Basically though, it's like having the gun itself. Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to use it. But in that one scenario that you do need it, it's damn nice to have.

TheRoadWarrior
March 20, 2012, 08:30 AM
I started quite the debate on this topic.

I have to thank many of you for helping me revamp my tactics and think of alternative ways to make my home safer!

Frank Ettin
March 20, 2012, 12:15 PM
...true enough... identification begins way before some incident takes place. it begins with planning, security, and having all on board actively participating in the plan....Nope. It means simply looking at, and seeing, the person.

Twycross
March 20, 2012, 01:57 PM
identification begins way before some incident takes place. it begins with planning, security, and having all on board actively participating in the plan.

Nonsense. At best, all that gives you a vague idea of what you might be able to expect. It does not relieve you of the responsibility to ensure that you are not shooting a nonthreatening or completely innocent person.

rha600
March 20, 2012, 06:48 PM
while I agree 10000%, I think I know what he was getting at.

could be things like, call your husband/wife before coming home at 2:00am.
having a plan that is a noise is heard everyone meets in a certain place in the house?
leaving certain lights on in the house to help easily ID the person making the sound. Or thing, it might be something that just fell over when an AC or heater vent blew on it...

rburch
March 20, 2012, 11:59 PM
Hate to be rude but anyone advocating shooting without positively identifying their targets is dangerous and has no business handling firearms.

Preplanning is good, but unless you see the person for sure, you don't know if it's a criminal that broke into your house, or a family member that tripped over something on their way to get a drink of water.

As to the nature of the light I have an L shaped mini light it's a UTG brand not sure the model. It's my main flashlight, and I rather like it.

The wrist strap means I can still have the light with me, but have a hand free at the same time.

That said I feel a decent light on a rail isn't a bad idea to have too. As a backup, or if you off hand is busy but you need light to take the shot.

My current pistol a CZ PCR doesn't have a rail, but if I get a gun with a rail I might look into one.

Slightly off topic, my Mossberg 500 has a light mounted to it for defensive use.

rha600
March 21, 2012, 06:04 AM
I think you meant withOUT positively IDing the target, but yeah. rule #3, know the target AND what's behind said target.

shooting at shapes or sounds is how accidents happen and anyone that does so should not own a firearm, or probably any weapon of any kind.

rburch
March 21, 2012, 01:13 PM
Yeah i did mean that, my brain sometimes jumps ahead of my fingers. :o

Fixed it now.

rha600
March 21, 2012, 01:17 PM
luckly my brain is just as slow as my fingers so I'm usually good to go. :D

dayman
March 22, 2012, 01:06 PM
I like a maglite 4D - obviously not attached to my gun. The reason for that is that I believe it's more likely to be some dumb kid breaking in than a well armed/trained boogyman, and a scaring/clubbing may be closer to what they need than a shooting. I like my TV, but I'm not going to kill anyone for trying to take it. Life seldom resembles a John Wu movie.

rha600
March 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
make sure he doesn't sue you for hitting him over the head while he was trying to steal your TV. haha.

personally, I'm not shooting them for taking something, I'm shooting them for being in my house uninvited. And I hope to make sure they don't do it a second time or to someone else. Because we know the legal system won't make sure of that.

bikerbill
March 25, 2012, 03:35 PM
Agree with those who don't use a light mounted on their home defense handgun ... my nightstand 1911 has night sights, and right next to it is a Surefire 9p ... the tailcap lets me switch the light on and off quickly and keep the light outside the outline of my body ...

As for shooting a home invader, the only person other than me who has a key to my house is my wife, and the first thing I do if a sound disturbs my sleep is reach and make sure she's next to me in bed ... anybody else in the house, thanks to the Texas Castle Law, is there uninvited and is fair game ...

rha600
March 26, 2012, 06:12 AM
Just curious, but how many people keep their house totally dark at night when they go to bed?

Those that need some kind of light, are you wanting the light in case someone were to cut the power or turn out lights or are you wanting it because you turn out all the lights before going to bed?

My house is set up with high ceilings. We keep the light in the, ummm, I think it's supposed to be a breakfast area on and with that on it lights up enough of the family room, kitchen, dining room and living room to see quite easily. the only dark areas where I'd need a flashlight would be down the hallway to the other three bedrooms.

Sigowner
March 30, 2012, 04:08 PM
I have the Viridian C5L on both Sig's and I recommend them because they provide both a solid light and strobe capability in addition to the green laser. I can assure you the strobe is powerful enough to cause anyone in front of it to hesitate and wince when hit with it. The nice thing is the strobe also casts a wider solid ligght similar to the flashlight so you can see a wide area.

jstgsn
March 31, 2012, 12:12 PM
I’ll start with this. Whatever firearm you choose, it won’t help you if an intruder can get into your home without you knowing it.

Being able to force a door or window because it isn’t secured properly will result in someone standing by your bed while you sleep. You can have a hand cannon with a mounted flood light in your nightstand, but if you are asleep, it won't help.

If your home is just off the street, make sure you don’t have shrubs etc blocking the street view of you windows or door. Often criminals will use those shrubs to hide while they work on breaking in, or lay in wait for you to come up to the door. Make sure your house number is highly visible from the street so emergency responders can easily find your home. If you have a back alley, number the house there too.

Place motion activated lights around the home. They have decorative fixtures with motion detector capability as well as spot lights for the back of the home. Yes a deer or raccoon will trip the lights, but so what, they only stay on for as long as you set them to stay on, and then go off until tripped again. When the exterior lights go off it illuminates the surrounding area of your home, and any intruders trying to enter. They are in the light, you are concealed in the dark.

We have a long driveway, so I went to Harbor Freight and bought two $20 motion sensors. They are battery operated and the detector is mounted to a post by the driveway, and one by the back of the house. One sounding device sits in the living room, the other by the back door. When someone enters the driveway, the alarm gives a ding dong sound. If they get near the house, the other sounds. Again deer and raccoons will set it off, but I don’t mind watching them too.

For the doors, have a locksmith key all the doors alike. Then unscrew the strike plate screws and make sure they are long enough to go into the 2X4 in the wall, not just the pine door frame. If there is glass surrounding the door, have double cylinder dead bolts installed, but keep an extra key hidden near the door in addition to your regular keys for fire safety and escape. Solid doors should have a 180  peep hole so you can see who is knocking before unlocking. With the screws going into the wall itself, not just the frame, if they kick the door in, you’ll hear them.

Windows need to have an additional locking system other than the butterfly lock. You should be able to secure the windows when they are closed and/or when they are partially open.

The inside should have lights on timers. There should be a good gun safe for guns and jewelry.

One other thing is to mark your property with your driver’s license. The state initials and the numbers will allow officials to find your name, age, address and so forth. If you can find stickers that indicate “Operation Identification” for your windows they help.

If you trust your neighbors, work with them. Be suspicious of traveling salesmen and so forth, and don’t hesitate to report suspicious activity.

When you call the police, remember, they don’t know what is going on until you tell them and they need the information in order. Your name, your location, phone number, why you are calling, what you think is going to happen. If it is happening right now, tell them “IN PROGRESS”. Be patient and stay on the phone until they tell you to hang up.

Make sure the family has a plan for fire and intrusion, and practice.

There is no one answer to crime, but using a combined package or system perspective where all the units work together can make the bad guys go somewhere easier.

Last but not least; I have an alarm system installed that not only monitors doors and motion, but a smoke detector. When we are not home, or the wife is home alone, it is comforting.

FireForged
April 1, 2012, 10:47 AM
As said earlier and I agree wholeheartedly... "there is no good way to go looking for someone".

Stevie-Ray
April 3, 2012, 09:34 PM
Guys, I keep a flashlight next to my nightstand gun. And it doesn't have to be expensive either. This is what I use: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00112HSE2/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=rayovac-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B00112HSE2&adid=1W4Q5RFZK6ZAEH0XVECN&

Bright, handy, and very inexpensive. Had mine for about a year. 28 bucks for it at Meijer, as you can see even cheaper from Amazon. Never really wanted to attach one to my gun, as it's my EDC.

jnichols2
April 26, 2012, 08:52 AM
I have read several threads on tactical flashlights, going back 6 years. Most people saw them as a normal light source, they are much more.

If a BG gets in my house, my 5 pound Yorkie will let me know. That will also let the BG know I'm home, and where I'm located.

I have no intention of going out to "clear" the house. I stay in the bedroom with my wife and dog. The BG can take anything he wants and leave. I will try to convince hi to leave: "I have a gun" "The police are on the way"

He is not an actual threat untill he tries to come in the bedroom. Texas Stand Your Ground says I can use deadly force to protect my property, but I have no property worth a human life.

I keep my gun and two flashlights handy. After getting the wife and dog safely in the bathroom, I get behind the bed with the gun and both flashlights. I have a cheap normal penlight to identify anyone coming in if I can't see good enough. The 500 lumen tactical light is actually part of my arsenal. I know from experience what it can do. It's like a professional strength flash bulb right in front of your face.

If it's strobed quickly in someones face (from the head of the bed, then I move to the foot of the bed), they will not instantly fire at it. The brain will require some time to process "What was that" "Where did that come from". It may only take a second, or it may take 3-5 seconds. That time is the advantage I want. Also, the BG is disoriented and confused.

A small possibility is the BG will become so confused he will bolt and run. So much the better.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the tactical is a powerful weapon in itself. But it's a valuable addition to the tools I have available.

kraigwy
April 26, 2012, 12:27 PM
I'll do my own searches if need be. I live out of town, if there is a Sheriff's Deputy close by then I figure at best the response time would be 30 minutes. If one isn't close by, then there is no telling how long it will take.

I'll do my own. It's not like I haven't done a building search. In my LE days I've done hundreds in not thousands, most alone. I've taught other cops building searches.

Don't agree, thats fine.

As to flash lights, no way in heck am I going to mount one on my pistol/revolver. Guess where your eye is if someone decides to take a pot shot at your light.

I carried a flash light, but always held it away from my body, I'd rather get my hand shot then my eyeball.

I also don't like super bright flash lights, I found they reflect off way too many objects screwing with your night vision. I like the standard old flashlights that you pay a couple bucks for at the box store. You don't need to read the newspaper with your light, you just have to see the bandit.

In fact in SE Asia I used the old L shaped light w/red lens (and mostly dieing batteries) searching little dark muddy tunnels. I saw all I needed to see.

This brings up something else I have mentioned more then once. LEARN TO SHOOT WITH ONE HAND. Extend your flashlight with one hand, and shoot with one hand. Learn to shoot one handed with either hand. If your right handed and peek around a corner on your left side, you're going to expose more of your body if you want to use your right hand. Same with the right side if you're left handed.

Simple enough to check. Get your partner to stand in front of a barricade. Get down on the right side of the barricade and point your finger. Try it with both hands, try it with two hands. Ask you partner which method exposed the most part of your body.

Use mirrors to peek around corners. Go low. Don't stand up and peek, get down. People (bandits included) expect people to stand up and peek around corners or doors, and are looking at head level. Get as low as you can, its not expected.

I know many, if not most will agree with me, but this is based on my experience and my set up.

Onward Allusion
April 26, 2012, 01:06 PM
I had an opportunity to attend lectures and practice drills with our city's LEOs recently and one observation was that all the patrol officers did not have lights/lasers mounted to their pistols.

Whereas every one of the Special Operations officers (drugs/gangs unit) had at least a light if not a combo on theirs. Oh, they also carry flashlights, too. The thing is, a weapon mounted light is a tool. Who says that you can't have both and use both? It all depends on the situation. Why limit yourself?

Onward Allusion
April 26, 2012, 01:10 PM
LEARN TO SHOOT WITH ONE HAND.

Amen

TacticalDefense1911
April 26, 2012, 01:34 PM
There are both good and bad points to using a weapon mounted light. The only problem with a handheld light is your ability to shoot one handed. If given only one choice between either a WML or a handheld I would choose the handheld. You always need a handheld light IMO.

If you do have a WML you need to practice with it. Don't just assume that it is going to work for you. Through practice I've found that I have an issue operating the momentary switch on my X300 while firing. The heavy recoil of my 45 causes my thumb to come out of contact with the switch when firing. Not a good thing while trying to keep a threat illuminated during an engagement. While the x300 is a wonderful light, I've found that it does not work for me.

R1145
April 26, 2012, 02:46 PM
I have the option of using a handgun tactical light at work, and I work nights, but I choose not to have one mounted. I considered it, and find it comes down to personal preference, depending on whether one prefers a "defensive" or "offensive" handgun.

It's kind of an extension of the point-shooting/aimed-shooting debate.

I remember some years ago reading about the approval of the H&K as the SOCOM "offensive" handgun: A primary weapon in a particular tactical environment. Enhanced sights and weapon lights seem to suit this application.

I think the main threat in my environment is more likely to come from a very quick, very close point-shooting "defensive" scenario, and I think a light on the handgun just makes it slower.

Most of the other points seem to cancel each other out. One only activates the weapon light (presumably) when seeking to illuminate an actual target, and turns it off immediately after engaging (then moving, if possible).

Our training and policy have us activating the light only with the non-firing hand, so I don't gain a free hand. I still need to have the hand-held light out because chances are I will need to use it for searching, etc., that I cannot do with the weapon light.

On the plus side, your chance of identifying a target and getting an accurate shot off in the dark are vastly increased, and if you fumble your flashlight, you can still illuminate the target.

The dilemma is similar to the situation with night sights: They really do make it easier to shoot accurately at night, but are they more suited to the range than real life? Much depends on the scenario.

For a dedicated home-defense weapon, I suppose I would consider one, but for a carry weapon, I will probably stick with my decision to keep it simple.

However, I think a tac-light is desirable on a long gun.

There you go, clear as mud...whatever. Just make your choice and train with it.

Double Naught Spy
April 26, 2012, 02:59 PM
He is not an actual threat untill he tries to come in the bedroom. Texas Stand Your Ground says I can use deadly force to protect my property, but I have no property worth a human life.

Don't be so naive. If he is inside your house, he is a threat. An inch of dry wall isn't much protection, except maybe against a yorkie.

You might want to recheck your laws. Texas stand your ground law does not say this. That part of the law has been in place long before 2007.

Property isn't worth a human life? Try explaining that to the criminals who are willing to kill you for your property and who are willing to die while trying to take your property.

ltc444
April 27, 2012, 01:56 PM
My home defense situation is different than most. My problem is varmints such as wild dogs, coyotes and the occasional mountain lion messing with my horses or goats. The signal is that my dogs raise heck and hit the door. If that occurs I know to bring a rifle and flashlight.

I will be adding a flashlight to my AR which is my primary outside response weapon.

Big_Bullet
April 28, 2012, 12:35 AM
just double tap them in the dark and ask questions later?
Have you heard what happens when we assume? It sounds too much like you're assuming that someone needs to be shot at. Always be certain that you need to shoot. After you are absolutley certain, make certain again. Might sound a bit insane, but I think I may almost need to hear a shot fired before I pull my trigger. Regret is one thing I don't want to regret.

Big_Bullet
April 28, 2012, 12:55 AM
anybody else in the house, thanks to the Texas Castle Law, is there uninvited and is fair game
Is there absolutely no possible way, none whatsoever, that someone could be in your house for some other reason than to rob or kill you? How about, a neighbor, so disoriented by diabetes, or some other reason, that they unlocked your door with their own key (has happened), and they thought they were in their own home. Stranger things have happened. We all know this is true. Pulling the trigger is always the absolute last possible option, and even then, away from the target with the first shot is a really good idea. The sound alone could scare a genuine crook away, or at least make the disoriented, possibly innocent stranger very quickly make themselves known before it's too late. A neighbor is a terrible thing to waste.

GunByte
May 3, 2012, 03:28 PM
All it took was one training session to learn that you cannot do a quick mag change with a flashlight in your left hand. As some posters said, the new lights today light up my whole living area by pointing it to the ground or ceiling. I do not have to point my gun at anyone. I have no kids so if someone is in my home they do not belong there. I also have tactical handheld lights with clips to attach to my waist.

I advise all of you that use handheld flashlights to walk through what you will do even if just to round up the family. You will find it hard to turn door knobs, hold your child's hand, turn on lights and do the many other things you will need a free hand to do. Then after all that imagaine your gun jams and do the drills you practiced to unjam it with a flash light in your hand. Of course you can waste a lot of precious time tucking that flashlight under your arm but seconds count.

I was adverse to gun mounted lights because they altered the balance point of my gun but after taking a night course I learned that you really need one hand free to do a lot of things.

P.S. I quickly learned in Vietnam, where the enemy dressed like the civilians, that you lived much longer if you did not debate whether that guy in the pajamas heading for you with his hands hidden was just a civilian that was ashamed of showing his hands or a VC. Many a civilian has had his gun taken from him and used against him becaues when the moment of truth occurs he cannot pull the trigger. He will consider all sorts of things like maybe it is my neigbor with the same key, or maybe he will just leave if I threaten to shoot or many other things. However, by the time he is absolutely certain that it is not some kid he did not know he had, coming to see his biological dad at 3am, the BG will be on him taking his gun away or plunging a knife into him. Had most of my LEO family and friends tell me that many a time a civilian was killed with his own gun by the person he was trying to stop because he could not pull the trigger. Humans are programmed not to kill each other. The military has to train you to act differently and even then I saw many a new recruit freeze up and not fire back when fired upon. So I am not going to spend much time deciding whether to shoot or not. If the person is acting like a threat he will be treated as one. This is the same thing LEO do. You cannot act like a pyschologist becasue you just do not have the time or training.

Frank Ettin
May 3, 2012, 04:22 PM
All it took was one training session to learn that you cannot do a quick mag change with a flashlight in your left hand. ...

I advise all of you that use handheld flashlights to walk through what you will do even if just to round up the family. You will find it hard to turn door knobs, hold your child's hand, turn on lights and do the many other things you will need a free hand to do....imagaine your gun jams and do the drills you practiced to unjam it with a flash light in your hand. Of course you can waste a lot of precious time tucking that flashlight under your arm ...

... learned that you really need one hand free to do a lot of things.....Which is why at Gunsite we train using a lanyard on the flashlight and around our wrist.

nate45
May 4, 2012, 04:18 PM
I'll be a dummy and post a couple of my flashlights. The reason I say dummy, is that for some reason a certain segment sees flashlights as some unnecessary piece of 'tacticool' equipment. The reasons why they do elude me, or their logic, or rather lack of logic behind their reasoning, I should say.

I use a handheld, but think weapon mounted is probably the best way to go. If you can't light up a room, or outdoor area with a weapon mounted light, without covering someone, or something with the muzzle, you are inept. Just hold it at low ready, no need to sweep it around like a search light. You will be able to see just fine.



http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii296/nate45auto/100_1309.jpg
Pistol is a Kahr PM9, top knife is an Ontario Rat 1, next is a 4Sevens Quark AA2 Tactical, then my twenty year old Cold Steel Ultra-Lock, last a Fenix LD20.

The Quark has a moonlight(0.2 Lumens), low(4 Lumens), medium(22 Lumens), high (85 Lumens), Max (205 Lumens). It also has strobe, beacon and SOS. It will run 30 days on moonlight and 1.3 hours on Max. I use rechargeable AA Eneloop batteries that have 1500 charge cycles and hold up to 75% of full charge for 3 years. I charge them on average every six weeks with normal use.

As you can see, you can easily use Kraig's technique of a lower lumens, stealthier light and still deliver 205 eye searing, room illuminating lumens if you want/need too.

Having a practical/tactical flashlight as part of your EDC and knowing how best to employ it, is the only way to go, IMHO.

FireForged
May 6, 2012, 06:58 PM
IMO, dealing with a SD issue by myself...A flashlight has no place on my weapon. I am fortunate that the street lights give off enough that I can see throughout my house "good enough" with just cracked blindes. If I have to use a flashlight I use fenix TA20 led on it lowest setting (for spot on identification)

I do have one of those clear baseball sized LED glowballs. I can roll it into a room and it gives off plenty of light to see anyone in there.

nate45
May 6, 2012, 09:13 PM
A flashlight has no place on my weapon


One of the features of a weapon mounted light, is that it can be left in the off position. The mere fact that its mounted doesn't necessitate its use. Yet it remains ready to go at a touch.

I think lights are really useful additions. I don't have one on a pistol right now, but I have one mounted on my HD shotgun. Its not in the way and is very useful, if I need it. Like I said earlier, its mere presence, does not mean it has to be used, but its there.

Frank Ettin
May 6, 2012, 09:16 PM
Even though there is a fair amount of ambient light from outside, I'd still want to have a flashlight. Shadows can be tricky. But I do prefer a handheld light.

Double Naught Spy
May 6, 2012, 10:33 PM
Is there absolutely no possible way, none whatsoever, that someone could be in your house for some other reason than to rob or kill you? How about, a neighbor, so disoriented by diabetes, or some other reason, that they unlocked your door with their own key (has happened), and they thought they were in their own home. Stranger things have happened. We all know this is true. Pulling the trigger is always the absolute last possible option, and even then, away from the target with the first shot is a really good idea. The sound alone could scare a genuine crook away, or at least make the disoriented, possibly innocent stranger very quickly make themselves known before it's too late. A neighbor is a terrible thing to waste.

LOL, just because somebody is your neighbor doesn't necessarily mean that they are a friendly or that your first inclination should be to believe that they are there simply because they are confused in some manner.

You know, there have been a lot of criminal acts committed by neighbors robbing, raping, and murdering one another. Maybe it is your poor, confused, diabetic neighbor who is unintentionally in your home, but having a delusion where he feels he needs to harm you or your family. Just because it is medical-based or chemical-induced condition doesn't mean he won't be a determined attacker.

MoBart
May 16, 2012, 10:41 AM
There are very valid arguments on both sides, as always when this type of discussion comes up.

My thought is simllicity. I dont keep a hadgun as part, of my hd setup anymore. I did for several years and always had a couple staged in various safe locations. Always had a light spare magazine or speed loader and kept near a phone. To much gear to deal with in the middle of the nihjt, under strsess and fear. The real value of the weapon mounted light is grab and go simplicity. Now my cell phone is always in my pocket or on the charger, my rifle is always close and in conditoon three and Im pretty confadent that I can make the phone call gather the kids and.gf and egress to the safe room with a minimul rjisk of fkrgetting anything. We all think ahead and train to one degree or another and all practice. However the reality is this would be a terrifying situation while your half asleep or in some other vonerable state (my worst fear is being invaded/roken into whike Im in the shower or takeing a sit down head call lol) aveing the light on the weapon eliminates the risk of forgetting it. And if your alone or acting as the only fighting componant of the family, you should not be "clearing" the house. Light up the approach to your position and leave it lighted up,let them knkw where you are. They will leave you alone in most every situation and if they dont you have a clear positional advantage.

Constantine
May 21, 2012, 05:23 PM
I personally go the route of a weapon mounted light..Gave it away to a less fortunate friend. TLR-1 miss it but I'll get another one. Probably the one with the strobe effect. Easier to have that one hand free without sacrificing the light.

PH/CIB
June 16, 2012, 03:26 PM
I have always hated light at night or anything that would give away your position even those swinging rocking parachute flares threw light over everything, and if a trip flare went you knew it was the enemy however had a deer set one off one time about gave us a heart attack. Have not seen anyone smoke with their hands cupped or at the bottom of a bunker under a poncho in years and I never smoked at night good way to get your head blown off and guard duty in the bunker or outside the perimeter on ambush or LP is no place to smoke.

That said a light on a gun does free up your off hand while as others have said giving the bad guy a good chance to shoot you in the head or torso, while a light off the gun like I believe the FBI used to train gives you the advantage of holding the light away from your body so if they shoot at the light hopefully you will not take a round to the torso or head although you could probably do that with the gun with the light on it holding it away from your head and body however it would be hard to shoot accurately that way and now if they shoot the light they just shot your strong hand and gun giving you no chance to defend yourself unless you are carrying another gun to use in your weak hand.

I thought at one time it might be neat to develop a periscope with a high intensity light on it or just get some PVC pipe and experiment attaching a light to it and seeing how hard or easy it might be to use the light that way to get the light away from your body.

I also thought at one time that developing a flashlight in the shape of a ball that you could throw in a room and clear it and then retrieve it for the next room might be a good idea but I believe I read some country like Israel had developed that with a grenade inside that they could set off remotely if needed. Did some night shooting with a flashlight around barricades and noticed flashing the light off and on quickly that when you flashed it on and quickly fired and flashed it off at a short distance the flash of the gun going off illuminated the target enough that you could quickly index the sights and do a double tap.

I also agree on not room clearing if you don't have to,,,if you know an intruder is in your home go to your predetermined ambush spot call 911 and let him enter your kill zone not you his. There is an old saying,,,"If you have a choice never go to a Man always let a Man come to you, the First thing the Eye sees is Movement!" A Man waiting in ambush in a good hide will in most cases take out a Man moving and trying to find him.

Lastly remember whether it is you sticking a flashlight or a gun around a door or window or the bad guy,,,with a sheetrock two by four wall,,,it would not be hard to empty a magazine through the wall starting at chest high or waist level and moving down to floor level and then away from the door or window.

alt4852
June 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
Don't be so naive. If he is inside your house, he is a threat. An inch of dry wall isn't much protection, except maybe against a yorkie.

You might want to recheck your laws. Texas stand your ground law does not say this. That part of the law has been in place long before 2007.

Property isn't worth a human life? Try explaining that to the criminals who are willing to kill you for your property and who are willing to die while trying to take your property.

This mentality is a bit disconcerting to me. Unless you have wronged some people, I think the likelihood of an extremely determined murderer entering your house is very low. Even then, the idea that someone is going to start lighting up your house and shoot through your walls in hopes of hitting you sounds rather far-fetched.

Statistically, most home break-ins are robberies, and thieves hoping to walk off with your TV are not the type that shoots up a room before walking into it. I think the others who have stated that securing the rearmost bedroom and guarding the door while waiting for the police is the most prudent course of action. Anything else simply puts yourself at unnecessary risk. Just because the law might allow something, doesn't mean you should press your luck and hunt down intruders in your house unless they're a direct threat.

As for property not being as valuable as human life, I also agree with jnichols2. Just because there are people out there who would kill you for your valuables, doesn't mean you have to integrate that into your own moral system. It's one thing to fire on someone if they continue to advance in light of a verbal warning of your intentions. It's a whole different story to end someone's life for trying to steal from you. We all have different morals, but I don't think I could live with the idea of taking the life of another human being under those circumstances. Breaking and entering is not in itself a violent crime.

Double Naught Spy
June 17, 2012, 02:53 AM
This mentality is a bit disconcerting to me. Unless you have wronged some people, I think the likelihood of an extremely determined murderer entering your house is very low.

Who said anything about extremely determined murderers? Looks like you did. There are a tremendous number of these that occur each year that are carried out by family, guests, and/or friends, quite often because conflicts amongst these folks. It is not extremely unlikely for an extremely determined murderer to enter your home. However, having a light on your gun can be quite useful to spot and identify the instruder.

Most murder suicides occur at home, for example.
http://www.inquisitr.com/202679/murder-suicides-occur-at-home-in-close-relationships-says-study/

And apparently familicides do as well and they produce at least 2 victims per event.
http://www.unh.edu/sociology/media/pdfs-journal2009/1-Barthell-Shelton2009.pdf

Furthermore, quite a few burglars shoot homeowners/occupants.

Even then, the idea that someone is going to start lighting up your house and shoot through your walls in hopes of hitting you sounds rather far-fetched.
Who said anything about burglars shooting through walls are necessarily meant to hit you? If gunfire occurs in your home and the burglars have spotted you and want to shoot you, just how accurate do you think their shooting will be? What happens to the shots that miss you?

Murders and attemped murders that occur as a result of a burglary gone wrong certainly do occur. For example...
http://www.wbaltv.com/Man-Sentenced-In-Home-Break-In-Murder/-/9380084/8902142/-/6gvxobz/-/index.html
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/02/29/abqnewsseeker/santa-fe-murder-victim-apparently-had-been-shot-court-documents-say.html

Statistically, most home break-ins are robberies, and thieves hoping to walk off with your TV are not the type that shoots up a room before walking into it.

No, statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.

Who said anything about intruders shooting up a room before they enter it?

Frank Ettin
June 17, 2012, 09:46 AM
...statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.True.

Some definitions might help:


Robbery is essential the taking of the property of another by violence or the threat of violence.


Burglary is essentially the breaking and entering of a building with the intent of committing a felony therein.


The felony most often intended by a burglar is larceny, i. e., the taking and carrying away of the property of another with the intent to permanently deprive him thereof.
Of course, those are only rough definitions, and different States may use different and more detailed definitions. But they will generally track with the foregoing -- which are based on the Common Law definitions of the respective crimes. The rough definitions are useful for highlighting the fundament differences between robbery and burglary.

The common risk to the householder present during a burglary committed for the purpose of larceny is that the burglar, being discovered by the householder, will use violence to either proceed with and carry out the larceny (making it robbery) or will use violence to help facilitate his escape and/or delay reporting of his crime and/or eliminate witnesses.

g.willikers
June 17, 2012, 11:48 AM
If the situation is indoors, the few folks who have suggested just using the house lights make the most sense.
You will be able to see without giving away your position.
And having the room entirely lit might have more shock value to the intruder than a flashlight would.

checkmyswag
June 17, 2012, 12:21 PM
Not that this would always be best but I heard this suggestion and found it interested...toss some glowsticks out from cover.

rivertamer
June 17, 2012, 07:12 PM
Great thread..... Lots of useful tips and tactics.
My views on house clearing are based on the type of dwelling you live in......I live in an end of group townhouse.....3 bedrooms and a bath on top floor...... Small hallway up stairs and you can readily view the staircase to the living room from landing...... My practiced plan is gather wife and son in front master bedroom.....wife with shotgun and 17 year old son with cell phone .... Behind bed.
I announce phone call to police and listen for movement.....I am perched safely on landing armed with glock 17..... With Fenix handHeld light... No one should be able to ascend stairs to pose threat to family.

I am quite capable of clearing the lower levels of house.... From base of stairs....I can see and clear living room and most of dining room and kitchen....2 walls could provide cover for bg.....I can maneuver to clear these walls easily.....
The basement area is a straight 35 ft shot.... Veiwable from base of basement stairs....... Closets are few and full.. no room for bg
Best bet is to still remain perched and wait for bg and or police to arrive.... Kinda like hunting deer from a treestand.... Tactical advantage of higher ground.

Sent from my tricked out Synergy Evo!

alt4852
June 19, 2012, 02:01 AM
Who said anything about extremely determined murderers? Looks like you did. There are a tremendous number of these that occur each year that are carried out by family, guests, and/or friends, quite often because conflicts amongst these folks. It is not extremely unlikely for an extremely determined murderer to enter your home. However, having a light on your gun can be quite useful to spot and identify the instruder.

I'm not entirely sure why you seem like you're compelled to get defensive, I didn't mean any offense. I quoted your earlier comment as it was itself a response to someone's opinion. If you put it into context, I think "extremely determined murderers" can be implied from your response.

The guy simply stated that if someone broke into his house, he would garrison his family in the rearmost bedroom of his house and defend the door with his gun and a high powered flashlight rather than try to clear it himself. By telling him that he's naive for thinking that his drywall won't protect him, you're implying that his plan to guard his bedroom is insufficient because the BG's can shoot through walls. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, that's what I was responding to.

Most murder suicides occur at home, for example.
http://www.inquisitr.com/202679/murd...ps-says-study/

And apparently familicides do as well and they produce at least 2 victims per event.
http://www.unh.edu/sociology/media/p...helton2009.pdf

Furthermore, quite a few burglars shoot homeowners/occupants.

I'm not sure how familicides are relevant as in that sort of scenario, it still makes more sense to bunker down rather than run around trying to clear the house. If someone you know is trying to kill you.

So going back to the original comment, why is it a better idea to clear a house rather than stay put and defend one point of entry with your family behind you? The gentleman said that the intruder is not a threat until he tries to enter the bedroom. I agree, if they're stealing your valuables downstairs, they are not an immediate threat to you or your family. After you've called the police, there's no reason for you to venture out to clear your house because the intruders are not a threat to your life until they try to enter the room you're defending.

Who said anything about burglars shooting through walls are necessarily meant to hit you? If gunfire occurs in your home and the burglars have spotted you and want to shoot you, just how accurate do you think their shooting will be? What happens to the shots that miss you?

Again, I'm not sure how your house is laid out, but for most homes, an individual will not be able to see you inside a closed bedroom unless they open the door. Without opening the door from the hall, they're blindly shooting through walls. That makes no sense. This is where my "extremely determined murderers" comment came in. Unless there are intruders hell-bent on murdering you, they wouldn't blindly shoot through walls. It's not exactly a smart thing to do for a burglar.

Murders and attemped murders that occur as a result of a burglary gone wrong certainly do occur. For example...
http://www.wbaltv.com/Man-Sentenced-...z/-/index.html
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/...ments-say.html

No doubt, and if they try to access your bedroom, the person you responded to would have taken further action as the conditions he described would have changed. I still don't see how his comment was naive.

No, statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.

My mistake, I wasn't aware of the proper semantics.

Who said anything about intruders shooting up a room before they enter it?

You implied it. Read post #63, and post #69 (your response).

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't find any fault in what jnichols2 stated. It's a bit off-putting for you to act as though I'm throwing up non sequitur strawman arguments, but I think anybody reading what you wrote could have come to that conclusion. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize, as it wasn't clear to me.

raimius
June 19, 2012, 04:34 PM
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

In the dark, that generally means shining a light on it.
Now, we have some options for this. We can use house lights, lights we toss on the ground, handheld lights, or weapon-mounted lights.

For me, I have a weapon light on my primary HD firearm. I greatly value the benefit of either having a free hand or using a two handed stance (I pull a lot higher percentage of shots when one-handed and trying to go fast). Since the lights are in the 100+ lumen range, I can light up a room from the high-ready, or temporarily blind someone with direct light. And, if I decide to temporarily blind someone, I have them covered at the same time.

Still, as someone who has done Force-on-Force and shoot-house work, I know that single-man clearing is DANGEROUS. I won't do it unless the situation places an innocent person in extreme danger. Sure, 1-man clearing can be done, and I have practiced it some, but it is VERY risky even when compared to 2-4 man team clearing.

Each has its pros and cons:
House lights:
Pro:
lights up a whole room
provides for easy ID
source of light does not provide information to BG
Con:
generally activated from non-mobile switches
lights up everyone in the room, including you
not as disorienting as a modern tactical light

Tossed lights:
Pro:
lights up selected area only
source of light provides only limited info to BG
Cons:
you'll want multiple ones to clear multiple rooms
limited by where you place them
easily defeated by objects creating shadows
possibly noisy

Handheld lights
Pro:
lights up selected area only
source of light can be displaced from you centerline
can be used as an impact weaponts:modern tactical lights are blindingly bright at night
Cons:
Most people aren't as accurate when firing one handed
Takes up off hand (harder to open doors, call police, etc)
Provides BG your location within about 1 meter

Weapon mounted light:
Pros:
Illuminates selected area only
Source of light lined up with muzzle (you don't have to aim the light and the firearm separately)
Allows 1 handed operation of firearm and light (frees off hand)
Allows 2 handed operation of firearm (more accurate for most people)
modern tactical lights are blindingly bright at night
Cons:
must aim light at other surface if you don't want to muzzle something
generally close to your centerline
not usable as a secondary impact weapon

Jammer Six
June 20, 2012, 08:25 PM
I've never understood why this topic is so complicated.

I teach simplicity.

I teach turning on the lights.

skoro
June 21, 2012, 08:12 AM
I keep my flashlight separate. As others have already mentioned, having the light on the weapon gives the intruder a good aiming point.

ScottieG59
June 21, 2012, 10:46 PM
Maybe everyone else has a large home in which you can rally the family to a defendable place. My doors in the front and the back of the house are very close to the hallway where our bedrooms are. I would have no time to rally or collect the kids during a break-in. At least, collecting all in a single room would be unlikely. I would have to defend the hallway leading to the bedrooms.

Realistically, the odds of a home invasion is very low and even lower when drugs are not involved. Still, a couple months ago, a neighbor of mine was shot to death by a home invader. So, the odds are low, but above zero.

I live in a rural area, though houses are visible to many neighbors. People have dogs that often remain outside at night and when one dog sounds off, the rest of the dogs in the area join them. Also, most people out here are armed.

At nighttime, I keep my Glock 20, a powerful flashlight with multiple settings, a charging mobile phone, a folding knife and electronic hearing protection the enhances non-gun sounds. When I am awake, I carry a Glock 27, flashlight, folding knife, and mobile phone.