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View Full Version : 12-gauge pump or .357 lever action better for HD?


idek
March 12, 2012, 01:21 AM
First of all, my primary reasons for owning firearms are hunting, pasture clay shooting, and general plinking. I do not own any designated HD firearms. Of the guns I have, I figure my mossberg 500 or my Marlin 1894c would be my best HD options.

My first question is: which is a better choice?

Comparing the specific guns (if it matters):

The Mossberg 500 has:
5+1 capacity
24" barrel (I have choke tubes ranging from skeet to full)
a fiber optic bead (no rear sight)
a knoxx compstock (reduces recoil)

The Marlin 1894c has:
9+1 capacity
18.5" barrel
a Skinner peep sight (screw-in aperture can come out, leaving a ghost ring)

A few specifics about my situation. I live in a house in town with standard sheet rock walls. I don't have kids in the house. Then closest neighboring house is maybe 20 yards from mine. If I should ever have an intruder, I don't see myself going around trying to "clear" the house. I'd more likely hole up in a safe room and wait for the police (the station is maybe 6 blocks from my place).

My thought right now is that I'd feel better with the shotgun, but that is based more on my gut than on any hard data. Any thoughts?

Second question: what .357 (or .38 sp) ammo would people recommend for HD if I used the 1894?

Cheapshooter
March 12, 2012, 02:03 AM
My thought right now is that I'd feel better with the shotgun,

And you are absolutely correct in your thinking. Maybe get a box or two of buckshot just to pattern it with, and you'll gain more confidence in the shotgun as a HD weapon. load it up with the same buckshot rounds and you will have an excellent "last resort" weapon as by your post that is what it would be.

NWPilgrim
March 12, 2012, 02:06 AM
Either one would make a fine self defense long arm, but the shotgun with buckshot would probably present the least danger of errant projectiles at your neighbor's house.

If you can afford it it would be better to get a 18" barrel for the shotgun. A 24" barrel is kind of unwieldy in a house. Load it with #4, #1 or 00 buck and would stop an intruder.

If you can't afford to fix up the shotgun then the Marlin 1894 would be a lot handier. I don't know how much energy a .357 bullet has after penetrating a standard frame wall, whether it would do much damage by the time it traveled another 20 yds to your neighbor. Might be spent by then I don't know. You could use lighter bullets such as 110 gr HP.

Lost Sheep
March 12, 2012, 03:01 AM
Shotgun is easier to hit with. .357 has a lot of flash and will affect your night vision and the report, being supersonic, is likely to be more destructive to your hearing than the shotgun.

A shotgun slug, buckshot or even bird shot is FAR heftier than a 110 grain or even 200 grain bullet. 550 grains (1 1/4 oz, or 7/8 oz is 380 grains) at 800 fps from a shotgun carries a lot more momentum than a 158 grain slug at 1400 fps. Almost twice with the heavy load and 37% more with the 7/8 oz. Energy, because of the velocity is a narrower margin, but with the heavier load is still there.

For a stationary defense, the shotgun (especially if you add an 18" barrel) is the winner. It does not preclude you having both, but considering your arsenal, I would look at upgrading the other defense tools. How are your locks? Alarm system? Exterior lights?

As far as exterior walls, if you have a defensive center, there will be a "kill zone" in the approach(es) to that position. If you harden the wall behind that zone, you will have a backstop you can count on to protect your neighbors. A piece of heavy furniture. A mirror with real wood backing. Tall (and full) bookcase.

The nice thing about shotguns is that at across-the-room distances, even small shot has a heavy impact. At across-the-yard distances, especially after penetrating a layer of wallboard and exterior siding the spread of the pattern makes for much smaller wound channels in your neighbors, if any. By the time those small bird shot pellets breach your neighbor's wall, they have little energy left.

Good luck,

Lost Sheep

idek
March 12, 2012, 03:25 AM
thanks for the replies. I've considered an 18" barrel, but since I don't picture myself maneuvering around the house much, I wasn't sure how important barrel length would be. Maybe I'll have to just tote the guns around the house a little and see how constrained I feel by the longer barrel.

Even if I go with the shotgun as my first option, I'd like to have some ammo for the lever-gun. Aside from the recommendation of lighter .357 bullets, is any certain bullet design preferable? It looks like most "defense loads" are hollow point. Is this definitely preferred over flat or round soft points?

jhenry
March 12, 2012, 06:26 AM
Even holed up in a safe room, you are better off with an 18 inch barrel. You should also consider that the plan may not work out just as you imagine. Movement somewhere else is still a very real possibility.

2damnold4this
March 12, 2012, 06:38 AM
Use whichever one you are most comfortable operating.

Skans
March 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
My vote is for handgun.

Deja vu
March 12, 2012, 07:41 AM
I love my 357 magnum Marlins! That said I would pick a pump 12ga over it any day for self defense.

The 357 magnum from a rifle is not nearly as piercing as it is from a hand gun but it is still plenty loud. While a 12ga is probably just as loud as a 357 magnum rifle the sound is much lower and much less piercing.

a 357 magnum rifle can all so get some pretty good numbers for velocity I have chronographed round over 2000FPS. The 357 magnum gains much more power from a carbine than most other pistol calibers.... but I would still take the shot gun loaded with buck shot.

you are lucky to have the police so close. The only time I ever had to call the cops it took them about 40 min :mad:to get to my house and that was for a home intruder (that turned out to be a Raccoon):o

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2012, 10:09 AM
Which have you trained with in HD scenarios and usage under stress?

Kind of more important than the gun. Either would work and I opine there isn't a whit of difference for the well trained good person with the correct mindset.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 12, 2012, 10:09 AM
Realistically, I think both of the firearms you are looking at are more than capable of doing the job. The biggest factor in whether they perform or don't perform for you is probably YOU. So I would tend to go with the firearm that you have the greatest confidence in and the most time with. And if you haven't gotten some formal training with either firearm, I'd seriously consider taking the time to do that.

Shotgun is easier to hit with. .357 has a lot of flash and will affect your night vision and the report, being supersonic, is likely to be more destructive to your hearing than the shotgun.

Barrel length is a significant factor in decibel level (see here for more detail (http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml)). Both a 24" 12ga and an 18.5" .357 Magnum are going to be beyond hearing-safe levels; however in self-defense terms (i.e. you aren't planning to shoot thousands of rounds without hearing protection), the difference in damage to your hearing between the two is pretty much meaningless.

On supersonic/subsonic; even the "reduced recoil" buckshot I've seen for sale is leaving at about 1255fps from barrels shorter than 24".

And on "easier to hit with", I can say that at 21' the Hornady Low-Recoil 00 buck pattern from my 18" open choke 12ga can be covered with my hand. The 12ga might give me a little better odds of putting a hole through something vital (assuming it is loaded with shot that can penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals) but I am not going to hit anything with the 12ga if I couldn't hit it with the .357.

A shotgun slug, buckshot or even bird shot is FAR heftier than a 110 grain or even 200 grain bullet. 550 grains (1 1/4 oz, or 7/8 oz is 380 grains) at 800 fps from a shotgun carries a lot more momentum than a 158 grain slug at 1400 fps.

Momentum is a function of mass and velocity. Shotgun pellets are not a single mass weighing 1.25oz; but a collection of individual pellets weighing less than that (000 weighs about 71gr, #4 buck weighs about 19.5gr). So each individual pellet from a shotgun is going to be both lighter and slower than a 158gr bullet travelling at 1400fps. Shot will also be a lot less aerodynamic meaning that drag will rob them of velocity even more. As a result, a 158gr bullet at 1400fps is always going to have more momentum than any single pellet.

The main place this difference is important in self-defense is in penetration. The .357 is going to to outpenetrate even 000 buckshot. Because each pellet in a shotgun shell acts individually, lighter shot will have poor penetration - even up close. Regarding good self-defense choices for shotgun ammo, I think this site has good input: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

Lee Lapin
March 12, 2012, 10:40 AM
Use the one you are best with, and have the most experience with using under some degree of pressure.

If you have no experience using either under any kind of pressure, GET SOME - either through training or competition.

dlb0412
March 12, 2012, 10:46 AM
Shotgun is king for stopping. Barrel length doesnt matter much unless you are going room to room looking for trouble. The best thing to do is wait for them to come to you. That gives you the advantage. You will here them coming but they wont know where you are untill its to late.

Vermonter
March 12, 2012, 10:55 AM
My answer to the which tool is best question is 12 ga pump 18.5 barrel. Load it with the correct ammo for your situation and you are all set. Train with it to be proficent and when you are train some more!

As for what ammo to load the carbine with you could consider hornady critical defense. If it will cycle in the lever gun. It is designed specifically not to over penetrate. It is a handgun round for sure so there is little data available on its preformance in a carbine.

seeker_two
March 12, 2012, 11:00 AM
If you can't get a shorter barrel for your shotgun, then go with the carbine loaded with .38spl.....will be much easier to shoot, quieter, and less overpenetration.....

matthew261
March 12, 2012, 11:02 AM
I spend a great deal of time working with inmates in some of our state's finer correctional facilities. The greatest fear among those who had made their living through the fine art of burglary was the shotgun or "gauge" as they call it. What you've heard is true, the sound of a shotgun being racked is enough to send most intruders out the door.

zxcvbob
March 12, 2012, 11:14 AM
I keep my Marlin loaded with .357 Magnum 148 grain hard cast wadcutters (real magnums, not target loads.) They cycle a lot smoother that SWC's, plus I can fit an extra round in the magazine. It will penetrate like the dickens though, so if you're worried about overpenetration it might be a bad choice.

How about loading the shotgun with something like #3 or #4 buckshot, or "high brass" turkey loads?

Better have earmuffs handy, and use them if you get a chance.

L_Killkenny
March 12, 2012, 11:37 AM
Like you I don't buy/own any gun for the purpose of SD/HD, the guns I have for other uses will just have to fill the bill. The best for HD debates have been going on forever and the facts are that I'd hate to try to live on the difference between your 2 options if they're in the hands of someone even remotely capable. Call it a tie, head for the range and run some drills to see which you which you might do better with. Too much thought into which one is best can be a bad thing and is generally just a time killer.

LK

kraigwy
March 12, 2012, 12:11 PM
This goes for anyone who is thinking about using a shotgun for home defense.

Measure you farthest spot in you home you may have to shoot. Then go to the range, set your target out at that range and see what the shot spread of your given load is.

An Example:

From the door of my bedroom to the doors of the bed rooms of my grandkids is 12 yards, 36 feet. Though separated by a wall, the way the beds are lined up, there is 6 feet between my granddaughters bed and my grandsons bed.

Also you have to take into a count the lay out of the house. Mine for example is set up so if someone comes in the front door, they are going to be directly between me and my grand kids bedroom.

If they come in the back door, they pass through the laundry room, through kitchen/dinning room and by the time I see them they are again between me and my grandkids.

The last paragraph prevents me from getting everyone into a safe room. If I have time to do that, I have time to face the bandit and keep him from entering the house in the first place.

Having checked the pattern of my shot guns, there is no way I'm going to touch off one in my house.

Given the two choices, Marlin Cowboy or 12 ga I'd go for the Marlin 38/357.

I use a revolver, but to keep on topic, I'd use the Marlin after figuring some way to put a laser sight on it. Also I'd use standard (non +P) LSWC 38s. The same ammo I use in my 642 pocket revolver.

I've shot enough critters 'n such to know it will take care of any problem I may encounter in my home. Its no louder then the shotgun nor is the muzzle flash any worse.

Please, anyone thinking about the shotgun and buck or bird shot, (or any other gun) evaluate your house (or where ever you may have to use it) and then check the pattern of your shot, using the distance you may have to shoot.

Also evaluate your choice of firearm, rifle, pistol, revolver, or shotgun to see how you shoot it and if it fits the lay out of your home. In my case, my home, I don't think I could effectively handle a long gun.

If you carry a snubby, be sure you learn to use it where you can CONSTANTLY make head shots at (in my case) 36 feet, if you can't then by all means practice or choose something you can shoot.

Just like a military operation. There is a time of the Warning Order to the Operation itself. During that period you evaluate the possible situation and what equipment you need to successfully complete the operation. We are in the Warning Order Stage simply by reading this post. Now is the time to evaluate, plan, and based on your evaluation, choose the equipment (firearm) to successfully complete the operation, that being protecting your family.

Buzzcook
March 12, 2012, 01:25 PM
I don't have kids in the house.
I'd more likely hole up in a safe room and wait for the police (the station is maybe 6 blocks from my place).

That pretty much says shotgun to me.

Deaf Smith
March 12, 2012, 09:58 PM
Nah..

Just get a M1 Carbine.

But between the two selected I'd just spend $250 and get the Mossie shotgun.

Deaf

Hook686
March 12, 2012, 09:59 PM
My thought is that if you hole-up in your room waiting for the cavalry, then the range involved would not yield any significant spread. I am disabled and neither the pump, nor the lever gun, appeal to me. My choice is between a Remington 1100, semiauto 12 gage, and a USGI M1 Carbine, auto loading .30 Carbine, or a Desert Eagle in .357 magnum, with 6" barrel.

I choose the lighter, shorter autoloader for holing up and waiting for the good guys ... the Desert Eagle.

I suspect if those are your only choices you must decide if you can manipulate the lever gun easier than the pump. You do not want any malfunctions under a real ugly situation. Take care of yourself the best you can.

Irish B
March 13, 2012, 12:39 AM
I really like the Winchester pdx1 slug buckshot combo they have for hd. It's a slug and three 00 buck balls packed together specifically designed for hd. Keeps a nice tight pattern and the recoil is very tolerable.

http://pr.ak.vresp.com/3b0f9b726/store.winchester.com/emailcampaigns/20100825_promo/pdx1_12_side.jpg

Canik
March 13, 2012, 03:04 AM
Shotgun is best for home defence..

seeker_two
March 13, 2012, 08:45 AM
I have never understood the practicality of combo loads like the PDX1. If you need a slug, use a slug load....if you need buckshot, use a buckshot load.

matthew261
March 13, 2012, 09:22 AM
Anything shot by 00 Buck from 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity.

Hook686
March 13, 2012, 09:43 AM
I think anything shot by a .357 magnum 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity.

matthew261
March 13, 2012, 09:53 AM
Touche Hook! I'm a .357 devotee. I was responding more to the sentiment that buckshot might not be an effective stopper at longer distances within a home.

TenRing
March 13, 2012, 10:57 AM
A shorter barrel for your shotgun is preferred because it presents less of a lever to your assailant. In a home invasion, you are likely to have close contact with the perpetrator and you don't want him (or her, since we just had a rash of women burglars in my area) to get a chance to grab a longer barrel and pull the gun away from you.

If you go with the shotgun as well you should, then I would definitely recommend a 18" barrel with no chokes, just standard cylinder bore.

The 1894 is a good choice since it is higher capacity but you won't need the range of a rifle unless you're defending a farm, which you aren't. The shotgun slide action is likely to be faster on follow-up for most people.

C0untZer0
March 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
I agree that what's most important is what you are more proficient with, but assuming you can hit your target with either, in terms of wounding, a 2Ā¾" 12ga shotshell with 16 pellets of #1 Buck has a cross sectional area of 1.13 square inches and produces significantly more effective wound trauma.

Federal's FLITECONTROLĀ® ammo keeps the shot relatively tight, but you'd have to pattern it at your range as has been said.

Constantine
March 13, 2012, 01:52 PM
Which have you trained with in HD scenarios and usage under stress?

Kind of more important than the gun. Either would work and I opine there isn't a whit of difference for the well trained good person with the correct mindset.

Exactly that! I have an AR-15 by my side sometimes along with my Glock 21 OR SIG 226...Since my finger broke...The AR has been out. Long story..Easier to shoot the rifle since the recoil won't go to my right hand in full. Or hands alone in general really. I have my body for it. These metal pins come out in about 2 days then I need therapy to make it normal again. BUT bottom line is..Even when I'm 100% again..I'd choose the G21 over my Mossberg 590 because I've trained heavily with my handguns for the scenario. The AR as well..but c'mon now...I have neighbors.

So Glock 21 with 3 mags. That should do the trick :)

Whatever you're the most comfy with. I went into a personal view of my current situation.


ALSO! Train with your off hand every time you go to that range. This is a devastating injury for me and my trigger finger.

tlm225
March 13, 2012, 02:32 PM
Either gun would serve you well. Of the two I would chose the Marlin since the shotgun presently has a 24" barrel. Install an 18" barrel and I would lean towards the shotgun by a small margin.

themalicious0ne
March 13, 2012, 02:48 PM
Both are great HD rounds. I personally would go with between the two, the shotgun. Especially using #4 buck shells. I have done my own personal research in the past on this and have found #4 buck to be the most powerful while least penatration. It will have a more difficult time penetrating your walls especially considering if you have other people(children) in your house. you may not be able to fire in the most wanted direction and need to consider a miss or penetration. i have also fired a .357 HP in my house before by accident :o and let me tell you it still has penatration.

mavracer
March 13, 2012, 04:54 PM
I feel confident that either would serve the intended purpose. I have a rack hidden in my closet for two guns. Quite often there'll be a lever carbine and a shotgun there. As for ammo if I were to use my 1894c for SD I'd probably use 145gr silvertips and shotguns get buckshot.

Panfisher
March 13, 2012, 07:18 PM
Keep the rifle by the door, and the shotgun in the "safe room" (or visa-versa), then you will have one near entrance to house, and if you can't get to it in time, you retreat to the safe room and the other is there in case the badguy should try to enter, that would end poorly I would think for him. Practice with both until they are both comfortable and smooth to use. As for ammo- hard to argu with a #4 or larger buckshot at close range, for the .357 I would think that something along the lines of 125 gr HP would be pure evil out of a rifle at short range and just about any JHP load should work fine as long as the rifle will run it smooth and clean. Either one is gonna be loud in a house, not much you can do about that. Better to lose a little hearing than a lot of life.

I would be a little concerned about a safe room unless there were some upgrades or something solid in it to hide behind. (gun safes full of more guns work well).:D

Nnobby45
March 13, 2012, 09:15 PM
:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdW2TAfN3mQ

PawPaw
March 14, 2012, 05:46 AM
12-gauge pump or .357 lever action better for HD?

You could always use a 12-gauge lever (https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/11662), or a .357 pump (http://www.uberti.com/firearms/lightning.php), just to confuse the issue.

9ballbilly
March 14, 2012, 06:53 AM
My personal preference is for the shotgun. Either should work fine. Whichever you choose, PRACTICE with it.

C0untZer0
March 14, 2012, 08:07 AM
Chiappa sells an 18.5" barrelled, lever shotgun that's 27.5" OAL:

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/2477

Seems neat, I just don't think that working it would be better than an auto-loader :)

Maybe the 1887's time has come and gone...

AH.74
March 14, 2012, 09:47 AM
I love my Marlin 1894C but would choose my 870 shotgun for HD without any hesitation. The Marlin is usually in the safe. The 870 is almost never in the safe.

Moondew
March 14, 2012, 09:53 AM
One thing I found (during LE) was that an intruder/ unwanted "guest" would have 2nd thoughts about their presence when they hear the sound of the action working on a pump shotgun or in the case of a lever action, loading.

They quickly "reconsider" ;)

zxcvbob
March 14, 2012, 11:16 AM
One thing I found (during LE) was that an intruder/ unwanted "guest" would have 2nd thoughts about their presence when they hear the sound of the action working on a pump shotgun or in the case of a lever action, loading.

How about the "click-it-y click" of a SAA revolver or double-barrel shotgun hammers? That's a pretty distinctive sound too, it's just not as loud.

Old Grump
March 14, 2012, 12:43 PM
You won't go wrong with either. 2 3/4" shell is more than enough power and 38 spcl with LSWC or JHP bullets will penetrate flesh and ruin a bump in the night boogerman plans for the foreseeable future without worrying about your bullets effect on the neighbors.

I am a rifleman by choice, pistol man by training and my house gun is still a shotgun, go figure.

Moondew
March 14, 2012, 12:47 PM
How about the "click-it-y click" of a SAA revolver or double-barrel shotgun hammers? That's a pretty distinctive sound too, it's just not as loud.

The extra noise, especially the "racking of the shell" in that shotgun or chink a clink is quite distinctive and any thug/ gangster can recognize it from videos and flixs!:cool:

Madcap_Magician
March 14, 2012, 01:58 PM
Well, the shotgun has a good reputation for home defense, of course. But it's probably not really any better from an overpenetration point of view and could be worse. 00 buck will easily go through your walls, and there will be more projectiles, too.

Also, the muzzle flash from the .357 lever gun is probably overrated. There's a ton of muzzle flash from a 2" or even a 4" .357 mag revolver, but out of an 18" barrel, you should see complete powder burn and not as much flash.

m&p45acp10+1
March 14, 2012, 05:23 PM
I say use the one you are comfortable with. Either will more than do the job with proper shot placement. Though in a high stress situation is when it is difficult to fine aim. I keep my WingMaster loaded near the bed. I have a .45 ACP within reach when I am in bed and need a gun as of seconds ago.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 15, 2012, 10:06 AM
Anybody watch Michael Bane last night?

Buckshot rips right through barriers and across the street as does some handgun ammo.

Hornady Tap in an AR doesn't. That's why an 223 carbine is better than both the choices argued here. Flame on! :D

Yes, it may hurt you in court - so have your lawyer ready if it isn't a good shoot! :)

ronto
March 15, 2012, 02:36 PM
Since you'll be in a safe room, the choice is shotgun without a doubt.

Bubba in c.a.
March 15, 2012, 03:30 PM
First, they are both good choices, much better than any handgun.
On stopping power, I would lean to the shotgun at room distances.
On ease of functioning, I would lean to the shotgun but if you have more experience with the rifle action you may lean the other way.
On not having annoying rifle sights at room distances, I would lean to the shotgun.
On ease of reloading, capacity, I vote N/A. At room distances it doesn`t matter.
On cost, the shotgun is winner hands down.
On overpenetration risk, the hot 38 might be the better choice out of a rifle barrel.

I sold off all my pistol calibre rifles when I discovered that for me they had no real use--.223 works fine for anything I am likely to do.

You might also want to consider a dedicated 18" 20 ga shotgun always in its place and always loaded with buckshot and use your other one for hunting. They don`t cost much and you can get the same make and model as your other shotgun.

Another thought on ammo--the upgraded copper plated stuff that is so great a distances has a higher chance of overpenetration closeup. Plain lead pellets in a bullet that patterns well in your gun may be better at room distances.

Steviewonder1
March 15, 2012, 09:55 PM
Neither, I will take any of my Handguns for Home Defense with either Cor-Bon DPX or Winchester Ranger T's 127GR +P+. Long weapons do not play well in close quarters. All of mine have lights on them, yes I will point a weapon at you with the light on. They are also quicker to reload when you miss.

ltc444
March 29, 2012, 06:05 PM
Answer is chose the weapon you can hit with when you are under stress.

SIGSHR
March 29, 2012, 06:26 PM
In both cases make sure you are completely familiar with whatever you chhose, and make sure they have a smooth action and are 100% reliable.

Rivers2k
April 18, 2012, 09:23 AM
You cant beat a shotgun for HD. with that being said I sold mine and kept my lever action.

Reason being my shotgun sat for year and years and never touched. IMHO there is no use for them at the range unless your shooting skeet and a good skeet gun is too long to be an effective HD gun.

My lever gets used at the range and its a great deer gun so I get to have fun with it and have a HD gun. Just some food for thought.

jstgsn
April 18, 2012, 11:43 AM
Is to take some steps to secure your home so no one can break in with a minimum of noise. Proper locks on the doors and windows, with the strike plates in the door frame firmly attached to the 2X4s in the wall, not just the pine door frame. Proper lighting, motion sensor outdoor lights, indoor lights on timers. House number highly visible from front and back. If someone can sneak in your house and surprise you in bed, you can have a howitzer and it won't help. Read up on home security then have both guns in accessable locations.

44 AMP
April 18, 2012, 02:36 PM
The question was a simple one, the OP has both guns, and wants to know the better choice between them. Therefore all answers about what to get don't help.

He said no kids, and will not be "house clearing", so both barrel length and concern about others in the house is irrelevant. He does, however have close neighbors, so penetration of walls is an issue.

"The shotgun is easier to hit with" is an old time honored statement. And even slightly true. However, in this case, its not important. With the smallest shot and the most open choke at across the room range, or at most, the length of the house, the pattern isn't going to be significantly larger than your open hand. If you are off target enough to miss with a single bullet, you are off target enough to miss with the bulk of the shot charge at inside the house range. And everyone here says bird shot isn't good for delf defense.

And, they are right, when you are talking about a couple of pellets. But with the mass of the shot still concentrated there is a considerable difference.

Momentum is a function of mass and velocity. Shotgun pellets are not a single mass weighing 1.25oz; but a collection of individual pellets weighing less than that (000 weighs about 71gr, #4 buck weighs about 19.5gr). So each individual pellet from a shotgun is going to be both lighter and slower than a 158gr bullet travelling at 1400fps. Shot will also be a lot less aerodynamic meaning that drag will rob them of velocity even more. As a result, a 158gr bullet at 1400fps is always going to have more momentum than any single pellet.


This is true, but again, at across the room range, it DOES NOT MATTER.

Given the situation described, waiting for the cops in your "safe" room, the shotgun is the best choice. Capacity doesn't matter much, as the odds of you shooting your gun dry are slim and none (and slim's out of town). Shortness isn't a big issue, as you are not going to be moving around in the house. Good sights are not an issue, as the range will be very short, and probably not well lit. Hunker down, and if they come through that last door, repel boarders. Your shotgun will do just fine, and due to the sheer mass of the projectiles will have as good (or better) an effect as any thing else you could use.

Slugs are not the best choice as there is about double the energy of the .44mag, and there is still enough left AFTER exiting your attacker to penetrate ordinary sheetrock walls and maybe ones next door as well.

I have one of those sweet little Marlin carbines, and its a great gun in a very good caliber for lots of things. And, if it was the only gun I had for home defense, it would serve quite well, and I would not feel un or underarmed at all. However since you do have a shotgun, I would choose it over the carbine, because of a few distinct advanges at very close range.

Nnobby45
April 18, 2012, 11:48 PM
In this video, you see shooters who actually know how to handle a pump shot gun.

Impressive.:D:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9


Contrast the above with this shooter who, for some reason, decided to make a demonstration video showing us nothing but his inability to really handle the shotgun well--shouldn't knock him, I guess, I started shooting that way, too:D.

The Wannabe.:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHdldmGPII


I'm an 870 man myself, but the Mossberg 590 works just fine. Yes, it takes practice to get the timing right, but the shotgun beats the .357 carbine hands down for those trained to use it properly.

Don't care for a 24# bbl. The 18" bbl. is much easier to use at close quarters. Barrel should be slightly over 18" to keep you out of tbl. with the Feds.

If I was going to use a short bbl. Carbine in .357, I like CorBon's DPX which is mid range between .38 +P and full power .357.

Denezin
April 19, 2012, 02:30 AM
mossy with bird shot shells. anything within 10 yards (30 ft) is dead at a center of mass shot. i use a h&r pardoner sawn down to 18 and 3/4th inches and a winchester limb saver recoil pad. i use anywhere from winchester 2 3/4 #8 birdshot to remington 3 inch #4 buckshot. birdshot for in home and buck for full wall penetration or door penetration. but if you feel more comfortable with the marlin level id go for comfort.

zxcvbob
April 19, 2012, 12:33 PM
If you really want to use bird shot, something like high-brass turkey loads will be more reliable. #8 will make a horrific but shallow wound; not sure you can depend on that getting the job done.

C0untZer0
April 19, 2012, 01:30 PM
I love that Wannabe video !

My favorite line in the whole video is:
That wasn't me...

Denezin
April 20, 2012, 01:39 AM
zxcvbob while i dont disagree with your statement about number 8 birdshot i will contest that in house most hallways and rooms are no longer than 10 yards. and at 10 yards no choke my #8 is a good enough pattern to be lethal. and the OP stated he lived in a neighborhood with houses 20 yards apart with sheet rook for walls. buckshot could be a problem for penetration of exterior walls into a neighboring house. while i myself live on a farm, no neighbors for me. means i could get away with buck with my house setup. but i dont because its not needed. thats my my thoughts. (btw this isnt to be a jerk this is just my general consensus.)

Bartholomew Roberts
April 20, 2012, 07:31 AM
zxcvbob while i dont disagree with your statement about number 8 birdshot i will contest that in house most hallways and rooms are no longer than 10 yards. and at 10 yards no choke my #8 is a good enough pattern to be lethal.

It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration. In bare jello at 10 FEET (not yards), #8 shot typically will not penetrate any deeper than 5" with most of the shot stopping by 3" - and that's jello.

In a real person, with clothes, a sternum, ribs, maybe a little more meat than the typical average male (Americans on average tend to be about 1" thicker than the global average), there are a lot of scenarios where the #8 shot isn't going to penetrate deep enough to force a physiological stop. It goes back to the momentum issue that 44AMP quoted above.

For comparison, less-lethal beanbag rounds are typically just #9 shot in a cloth bag. They use such light shot because it doesn't penetrate. However, both #8 shot and less-lethal can and have killed people, so you don't want to use them unless the situation justifies deadly force - and if the situation justifies deadly force, then #8 is a little light for my liking.

TenRing
April 20, 2012, 08:05 AM
FYI. The shooter in the "wannabe" video was not trying to demonstrate tactical shotgunning. He was just function checking his new 590 Mariner. He loaded three at a time because the public range had a three round rule.

Denezin
April 20, 2012, 02:39 PM
Well ill just agree to disagree. :cool:

C0untZer0
April 20, 2012, 03:24 PM
It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration.

I call it the column of lead fallacy. On one side of this fallacy people will argue that smaller shot size doesn't matter - that it's as effective as #00 Buck or a slug because since the shot hasn't patterned out - it acts like a slug.

On the other side of the fallacy people will argue that larger shot size doesn't matter, that since the #1 or #00 pellets haven't spread out enough to make separate holes, the shot is going to act like a slug, and won't have the same effect if the shot pattern had spread out and perforated the assailant multiple times.

Both of these arguments are wrong.

When a load of #1 Buck hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly begin to travel along their own paths - creating 16 distinct wound channels (although some of these wound channels may intersect at some points). The pellets will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if they were more spread out - which can be tested by firing something like Federal FLITECONTROLĀ® versus something that has no cup or even a spreader wad.

When a load of birdshot hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly lose velocity, penetrate to relatively shallow depths, and will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if the shot were more spread out.

Pattern does not effect penetration.

Penetration is dependent on the mass of each pellet. A slug will penetrate the most deeply, #00 Buck will penetrate more deeply than #1 Buck which will penetrate more deeply that BB or any bird shot, and it's not dependent of the shot pattern.

This also gets confused with the argument that if you are firing a tight pattern and your shot placement is less than optimal - a tight pattern will be a non-debilitating miss, whereas a wide pattern gives you a better chance of at least one pellet disrupting vital tissue - but that's a separate argument.

Nnobby45
April 20, 2012, 06:07 PM
Answer is chose the weapon you can hit with when you are under stress.

Any shooter can shoot well with either weapon he chooses to practice with and become efficient.
So what's the answer.? The shotgun or .357.

Did you think you were going to get away with that cop out answer? :p

Denezin
April 21, 2012, 02:44 AM
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 21, 2012, 07:57 AM
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill?

People have survived shots to the upper torso and even the head from 12ga loaded with light birdshot at distances closer than 5yds. Birdshot may penetrate deeply enough to force a physiological stop depending on the scenario; but it is less likely to do so than heavier shot.

As I mentioned earlier, at 10 feet the deepest penetrating #8 shot is around 5", with most stopped by 3" - and that is in bare jello. Are attackers typically naked invertebrates where you live? Will 3-5" make it to their vitals from every conceivable angle? If so, #8 shot may work just fine for you. If on the other hand, they might be homo sapiens, I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.

zxcvbob
April 21, 2012, 10:02 AM
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.


Of course it can kill. But that's the wrong question. You should be asking whether a shot to the torso will stop someone *reliably*, not just with a lucky shot. OTOH, if you plan on only shooting them in the eyes, skeet loads will probably do just fine. (I'm not that good a shot, not even at 5 yards)

I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.
It still may effect a psychological stop. Imagine how much damage it's going to do to that arm. I still wouldn't want to count on it.

C0untZer0
April 21, 2012, 08:44 PM
The shot size debate almost makes me want to recommend the .357 Lever-action, because I figure almost any 38 spl or 357 magnum cartridge you just randomly buy from the ammo isle would be better than birdshot, but then I remembered CCI makes snake shot is 38 spl:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/757831/cci-shotshell-ammunition-38-special-357-magnum-109-grain-9-shot-box-of-10

Worst of both worlds :(

Nnobby45
April 22, 2012, 08:59 PM
Bird shot will work very well for the tactical situations it's advocates have created in their own heads.

It must, since it seems to have a fair amount of fans.

Add in the real world, reality based tactical problem ivolving Bubba and his friends using your favorite armchair or other furniture, etc. for cover-- that bird shot won't defeat-- then it doesn't compare to 00 buck, which is proven and uncontroversial with re: to it's effectiveness on Bubba the intruder.

Or any other type of feral man.:D

Never understood those who go to birdshot to reduce the danger to members of their own family (and other innocents) and then try to tell us how lethal it is against an assailant.:confused:

wun_8_seven
April 22, 2012, 09:44 PM
when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.

Nnobby45
April 22, 2012, 10:59 PM
when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.



Interesting. I've killed many a quail and larger chukar partridge with much larger #6 shot, and found, with regularity, shot that didn't penetrte the 2nd layer of skin.

The same shot will not normally penetrate thru a pheasant, Sage or Blue grouse at 30 yds.

C0untZer0
April 23, 2012, 07:39 AM
DRT = Dead Right There ?

A lot of stories about people getting hit with birdshot full-on, from the side and in the back from hunting accidents who not only survived but walked out to get treatment.

I have a friend who took a load of #8 in a hunting accident (ND from a fellow hunter really). He was shot in the lower calf & foot. None of the shot exited out the other side, and it wasn't because it hit bone. None of the shot pnetrated that deeply. I think the deepest pellet went 2 inches, and that pellet is still in there.

Even without the anecdotal stories - it's easy enough to figure out by shooting it into ordnance gelatin.

These results are in gel that really isn't too firm, generally there was deeper penetration in these blocks than normal:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

But even with these blocks, you can see that #8 stops at 4" and it hasn't even hit a rib cage. One pellet makes it a paltry 5"

I would say that the 12ga makes a potent HD weapon, with the caveat that it's loaded with the correct ammo. You can take this very potent home defense weapon and reduce it's effectiveness tremendously by loading it with birdshot.

wun_8_seven
April 23, 2012, 08:46 AM
yes dead right there, most of the shot hit him in the throat/ upper chest and dropped him where he stood

JerryM
April 23, 2012, 09:19 AM
for me it is a no-brainer. The shotgun wins by a wide margin.
Jerry

DaleA
April 23, 2012, 01:13 PM
Nnobby45 - thanks for posting both videos.

The first one (today, 4/23/12 at 1:00pm CDT) is someone shooting an AR15 .223 using an EoTech sight. I liked watching it a lot.

The wannbe video was interesting too...I now know who invented the F- word and the S-word. (Well, maybe not invented it, but he might have perfected it.) That said, the Mossberg Mariner looks like it will shoot.

tazbigdog
April 23, 2012, 07:32 PM
Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot) than the lever action.

I like the ammo selection with the 12 gauge and can even be fitted with a light.

Good luck,

Jeff

Frank Ettin
April 24, 2012, 10:55 AM
Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot)...How do you figure that? Are you aware that at across the room distances a shotgun pattern is only a few inches in diameter?

Glenn E. Meyer
April 24, 2012, 02:17 PM
The birdshot will eliminate many people as it forms a column of incredible destructive power and zaps through the first guy and then spreads out to a cloud of lethality.

Or when they hear the rack, they will flee in abject terror.

That's how! We all know that.

The answer to the question - already stated - is the weapon you train with and shoot best. Either would be just fine.

But train with both, perhaps.

Nnobby45
April 24, 2012, 08:52 PM
yes dead right there, most of the shot hit him in the throat/ upper chest and dropped him where he stood

Out of curiosity, how did the shooter fair with the justice system after shooting a man in his driveway?

briandg
April 26, 2012, 02:01 AM
At very close ranges, I think the opponents of bird shot would be really surprised at the damage it does. a load of bird shot from 8 feet can destroy a person's skull. a suicide by shotgun leaves a cored out empty shell. I'll post pics maybe.

Can you hit a 350 pound lardbucket in the chest at 35 feet and mortally wound him? whole different question.

My choice is still and always will be a .357 carbine instead of a standard bird hunting shotgun. A police style combat shotgun would at least be worth considering.

btw, our home is close to 3k square feet, and the longest possible range of fire is still only 25 feet or so.

ChaseReynolds
April 26, 2012, 10:19 PM
I have a Maverick 88 with a pistol grip and 18.5" barrel. Perfect for my small apartment.

SIGSHR
April 26, 2012, 11:40 PM
I would like to see some verified reports of the use of birdshot or trap and skeet shells in SD situations. Like the 22 LR, not the best choice but more effective than is given credit for.

wun_8_seven
April 26, 2012, 11:58 PM
Nnobby45, i'll expand on the story: 16 son comes home at 2400, stepdad here's him drive up and looks out the window, unknown man comes out of darkness and opens car door and sticks pistol in still setted 16 yo's face and demands money and vehicle . Stepdad see's this from window ,grabs shotgun opens front door man raises up to face stepdad and gets a load of birdshot in upper chest and throat area. Drt., clean shoot

Doug S
April 27, 2012, 12:24 AM
I bought one of the Winchester 357 lever guns, and it jammed frequently. A friend had a Marlin 357 lever gun, and I don't remember it every jamming. Don't know if this is typical or not, but I've not heard good things about the current production Marlins (bought out by Remington). I'd choose the shotgun for reliability issues after my experience.

idek
April 27, 2012, 12:40 AM
It's been a while since I started this thread. Based on suggestions and my own thoughts and situation, I think I'll stick with the shotgun. I've had that about 14 years compared the the lever gun, which I've had less than a year. I've probably put 50 times more rounds through the shotgun and can cycle the pump significantly faster.

I think I'll try to arrange solid backdrops in directions where I think I'd be most apt to shoot if I ever had to. I'd rather do that than go with birdshot. #4 buck might be the smallest I'd want to go. I seriously hope I'd never have to pull the trigger, but if I did, I wouldn't want to rely on birdshot probably being adequate.

briandg
April 27, 2012, 08:51 AM
Idek, book cases will do a good job. attach an inch thick sheet of plywood to the back. You can line any wall with 1" hard plywood, and this will prevent a lot of the danger; it will scatter and slow down a near contact impact, and it will possibly stop and certainly slow down a round that has spread some already.

aluminum siding will not stop a bullet unless it is fired from a compact .45 acp.;):rolleyes:

I used to stack my spare lumber against an external wall of my garage in line with the hallway of my ranch style home. I had a stone fireplace and 6- 10 inches of boards between my neighbor's house and my own in case I fired down the hallway and missed.

When I realized just what a complete wanker the guy was, I moved the boards and prayed every day for a nighttime home invasion.

briandg
April 27, 2012, 09:08 AM
sigshr, here is what you want to do. Go to the nearest college/university, and consult the library. find every possible book on homicide investigation and forensics, and skim through them for information.

I don't care how many deer you've gutted out, be prepared to see week dead floaters that were chewed by turtles and crayfish, rotting corpses, eyeballs glued to a wall by a film of blood, and so forth. Adipocere (spontaneous saponification) is almost tolerable until you see it in color.

One thing that you may find is the explanation for the relative effectiveness of very short range shotgun loads.

Divide the charge into 1/4 ounce layers. The first 1/4 ounce will tear holes and lacerate tissues a few inches deep. the second layer will partially go through the same lacerated tissues, and punch a bit deeper after it passes the first charge. The same process follows. Every pellet that strikes previously damaged tissues will slip through it like hamburger. It was described in terms of hammering a nail in 4 blows.

This only applies when that charge is still almost a semi-fluid wad of shot smaller than a golf ball. When spread out, each pellet must fend for itself, it cannot depend on another pellet to aid in penetratioin.

C0untZer0
April 28, 2012, 11:32 AM
^ uh...

Wouldn't it just be easier to see the laws of physics demostrated in something like a test media?

Brassfetcher's test on #1 Buck - penetrating to about 13"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0g07IeEXU&list=UU1UICFxcABkGg8Nj3X0dW8Q&index=5&feature=plcp

Brasfetcher's test with #4 Buck penetrating to about 8.5" (I'm just guessing based on how far apart his braces are on the underside of the block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDjNaTeUt2Y

My main points are

Shot spreads out and shot slows down, it does this in air and it does it in water or ordnance gel or the human body.

You can visibly see that the #4 shot slows down much more quickly than the #1 Buck, it penetrates less, but also, the direction of some of the #4 Buck changes at a greater angle than the #1 Buck.

Just the laws of nature - try changing the direction of a rolling marble versus a rolling shot put. Try stopping a rolling shotput versus stopping a rolling marble.

Birdshot does spread out, and it basically comes to halt.

I'm thinking that shooting someone with birdshot in the throat / neck is probably more lethal than shoting them in the chest. The throat is relatively soft tissue, major arteries are only a few inches deep, but even if the birdshot didn't penetrate to a major blood vessel, tearing up the esophagus and the trachea is going to cause a person to choke to death.

briandg
April 28, 2012, 04:57 PM
Gelatin can't replicate the human body. if you want to see what shotguns do to people, look at people that have been shot with shotguns. Don't bother looking at the ones that just happened to be behind a quail, look at the ones That took a full charge to the face or chest, deliberately. Plenty of pictures of dead people available with shotgun wounds.

C0untZer0
April 28, 2012, 05:49 PM
My idea of a good government program, something I could say "now that's tax money well spent." would be a national program / federal funding for all coroners to input data into a national database that showed what caliber and brand of bullet a person got hit with... how deeply each round penetrated, recover diameter and weight, what structures / organs it hit and passed through or was stopped by.

That would be awsome.

briandg
April 29, 2012, 12:31 AM
it'd never do any good. too much of this is so subjective and open to individual factors to glean any meaningful data from it. When we manage to collect 10,000 shootings, and run the comprehensive information through top line artificial intelligence programs we will still not be able to predict what will happen to victim #10,001. That's the point, right? predicting how a bullet will function in any given situation?

The real solution is to design good bullets that will open up in gunky wet stuff like muscle and will still manage to open up in many dry things, and in the end, you will still have put a hole in someone of at least that bullet diameter, and that hole may kill him.

C0untZer0
April 29, 2012, 12:34 AM
and that hole will stop him.

There, fixed it for ya.

bamaranger
May 25, 2012, 01:08 AM
Since tHe OP is a gun guy, or sounds to be, I'm inclined to favor the shotgun in his circumstance..

And it is the scattergun that stands ready in several corners of the bamahouse to defend my hearth as well. But.....

The 12ga shotgun, or even a 20, is not for everyone. Typically they are heavy, have substantial recoil, and a somewhat complicated manual of arms. Bamawife, for example, will not weigh 100 lbs soaking wet in a winter coat with the pockets full of cast bullets. For her, and others similar, some type of low recoil carbine makes more sense.

RobertInIowa
May 25, 2012, 01:33 AM
Shotgun, hands down. Best defense for a home ever. 000 buckshot. Anyone looking down the barrel of a shotgun held by frightened or cornered homeowner is going to get the h*ll out of Dodge and fast! And if you actually NEED to pull the trigger, it'll get the job done without the need to have perfect aim. And if you get a pump action, everyone knows and fears the sound of a pump action being worked. Now you're talking FEAR FACTOR.

2damnold4this
May 25, 2012, 10:05 AM
The guy might have hunted rabbits all his life and be an expert with a shotgun. He might shoot his rifle in cowboy action events every weekend and be better with the lever gun. Both will work and which ever one he feels most comfortable with should be the choice.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 25, 2012, 03:50 PM
We have discussed racking as a deliberate tactic endlessly. Conclusion, when the shotgun comes to hand, you rack to get it ready. Sound effects are a side effect.

Besides, if I were a stone cold (cliche) BG, ready to do evil, when I hear the rack, I would fire a few rounds at the sound. Thus, Mr. Shotgun is now the one getting poopy. Why give away position, etc.?

Mello2u
May 25, 2012, 04:50 PM
I agree with 44AMP's post #55.

To clarify (Lost Sheep's post #4) the power of two Remington 12 ga. double 0 buckshot rounds:

Shell Length - 2 3/4" Pellet Cnt. - 9 (1.125 oz.) Shot Size - 00 FPS - 1,325
492 grains @ 1325 fps = 1918 ft lbs
Shell Length - 2 3/4" Pellet Cnt. - 15 (1.5 oz.) Shot Size - 00 FPS - 1,225
656 grains @ 1225 fps = 2186 ft lbs

Shot for shot the 12 ga. buckshot load is superior in power to any .357 magnum load.

These projectiles will exceed the speed of sound which is about 1,126 ft/s depending on air density.

RAMZ707
May 25, 2012, 05:18 PM
I personally have never shot a .357 lever but I do own a marlin .44 magnum lever action and it is wonderful!
If I had to choose between a 12ga and a lever action rifle I would choose a 12ga. Nothing against a lever action but you can just cover a larger area with a shotgun and in home defends that can mean less aiming and more blasting!!!

JimPage
May 25, 2012, 06:06 PM
I seriously doubt the often vaunted spread of the 12 ga is effective at in the house ranges. You still have to aim to hit the target. I have seen rabbits shot at 15 ft with #6 shot. It went right through the rabbits like a slug with only a couple of pieces of shot spread out. That translates to little expansion at in the house ranges.

Nnobby45
May 25, 2012, 06:07 PM
I personally have never shot a .357 lever but I do own a marlin .44 magnum lever action and it is wonderful!
If I had to choose between a 12ga and a lever action rifle I would choose a 12ga. Nothing against a lever action but you can just cover a larger area with a shotgun and in home defends that can mean less aiming and more blasting!!!

A statement that smack's of Hollywood, rather than the real world. You know, where the bartender fires his dbl. barrel and one bad guy is knocked out through the swinging doors, and the other is blown back through the window and lands in the horse trough.

When I patterned some Fed. Tac low recoil 00 buck--with FliteControl wad, the results were as follows.

10 yds. one hole
15yds. 4" pattern
25 yds. 7"

32 yds, fired yesterday when I was zeroing some slug loads, (one round) 8.5" pattern for 9 00 buck

Same precise sighting is required as if you were using a slug, though there is a narrow zone where the pattern is still effective, but big enough so that you have some margin for error. But that zone is small, just before the pattern is too big for an effective number of hits no matter how precise.

Hornady Tap uses same wad, and produces same results, though shot is lead rather than plated like Fed.

Even with traditional buckshot loads with larger patterns, the pattern at typical home SD ranges is so small as to make precicse sighting of the shotgun mandatory---same as if you were shooting your lever .357.:cool:

Koda
May 25, 2012, 06:33 PM
I think 357 and 44 are pistol rounds. Although I see the point of rifles chambered for them (for cowboy action and certain hunting rules), I think that I'd rather my long gun be a 12 gauge than a pistol caliber of any sort.

Not saying I don't want pistol cartridge rifles, of course, but, to pick between them for home defense, I want the 12.

RAMZ707
May 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
My side by side 12g with 3" nitro mags would decimate anything I aim towards. At 30' with bird shot #6 both barrels I leave a pretty large print and anything coming down my hallway or through my door is not going to know what hit them!

Frank Ettin
May 25, 2012, 07:41 PM
My side by side 12g with 3" nitro mags would decimate anything I aim towards. At 30' with bird shot #6 both barrels I leave a pretty large print and anything coming down my hallway or through my door is not going to know what hit them! [1] When fired from a cylinder choke shotgun, the shot pattern at 10 yards is about 7 to 10 inches.

[2] While 1.75 ounces of #6 shot is about 390 pellets, each pellet is only 0.11 inch in diameter (about half the diameter of a .22 lr bullet) and weighs only about 2 grains.

[3] Each pellet has a low sectional density and low ballistic coefficient, and so it will lose velocity rapidly.

[4] Even assuming a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps, a pellet of #6 shot is unlikely to have much penetration at 10 yards on a clothed target.

Nnobby45
May 26, 2012, 12:36 AM
My side by side 12g with 3" nitro mags would decimate anything I aim towards. At 30' with bird shot #6 both barrels I leave a pretty large print and anything coming down my hallway or through my door is not going to know what hit them!

WOW! There's a home SD gun for you. Twice as much shot as you need, and if you miss in the hallway, you'll blow out Bubba's ear drums--and yours, too. Nobody will want to fight anymore---peace, Bro. :p

OK, once in a while I get a little humour streak, maybe the Red Bull. But, you don't need 3" mag's for home defense, and you can't make up for the lack of birdshots' penetration just by having more of it. Would be like the B1 bomber dropping 100 lb. bombs. I hear that Remington has a new HD load that uses #2 shot. I always called 'em goose loads, myself. At least that would be an improvement--and still lacking penetration thru a couch or a chair that Bubba might duck behind.

GM2
May 26, 2012, 03:18 AM
I don't have to worry about close neighbors or children in another room and I have handguns, rifles and shotguns. I do have a lot of training and experience with all three and due to my past career as a LEO have seen people wounded and or killed by various types of weapons. With that said I sleep with a 18" double barrel loaded with # 1 buck nearby and one of my revolvers and a flashlight in arms reach. However, if I had only the OP's choices I would go with the shotgun.

Nnobby45
May 26, 2012, 05:48 PM
I remember Ayoob's take on things. The pistol is infantry, the shotgun is artillery.

Not always interchangeable for the specific task at hand (that's me says that:D).:cool:

gvw3
May 26, 2012, 07:55 PM
I use my 2 dogs as my 1st line of defense. If they could get past them I have my 12 gauge pump.

kgpcr
May 27, 2012, 09:21 AM
12ga and buckshot anytime for home defence! Buckshot at that range is just plain nasty!

CCCLVII
May 28, 2012, 11:03 AM
I would go with the shot gun unless there are children in the house. While the odds of a hostage situation are very slim if I was in a hostage situation where one of my children was the hostage I would want the rifle over the shot gun.

106RR
June 9, 2012, 02:40 PM
I have tested the 357 magnum Marlin in the dark. It gives a dull blue flash at the muzzle. It is nothing like the muzzle flash from a pistol. In my case the carbine is best for defense because my wife can use it effectively. 357 mag recoil is very light in a carbine. Almost anyone in the house can be trained to use the Marlin. The shotgun requires a dedicated user who can endure recoil. Also, there are certain jurisdictions where an AR type weapon would prejudice the case and/or the jury. The Marlin is user friendly and court friendly.

robmkivseries70
June 10, 2012, 09:22 AM
I just broached this with a retired Bureau Agent. He went with the 12 ga. because of the tissue damage/ stopping power.;)

iamdb
June 10, 2012, 01:41 PM
This is obviously a rhetorical question. 12 gauge is unmatched inside of 50 yards. I doubt the inside of your home will exceed this length.

Caliber
July 24, 2012, 06:45 PM
the 12 gauge is always the best choice you can't beat buckshot in a confined space

jackpine
July 24, 2012, 11:01 PM
software issue not hardware.