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View Full Version : According to ABC the days of grabbing a baseball bat and heading to the door are over


C0untZer0
March 7, 2012, 12:36 PM
I don't know who their experts are but in the story the reporter says: Security experts [sic] say the smart thing to do is lock the door of the room that you're in and call 911.

How insane is that? They show footage of burglars breaking open front doors, but a bedroom door is going to stop them cold in their tracks?

http://www.sj-r.com/popular_video?ndn=y&vid=23595686&lid=us&sec=top-stories

Also kind of funny - the 911 operator in one case seems to be very dissapointed that a homeowner shot to defend herself he says "Maam, did you shoot AGAIN ?"

But just tactics wise, IMO, unless you've invested in a bullet-proof door and the heavy-duty frame to support it, a bedroom door doesn't do much for you besides buy you a ittle bit of time.

OldMarksman
March 7, 2012, 01:16 PM
Posted by C0untZer0: Security experts [sic] say the smart thing to do is lock the door of the room that you're in and call 911. How insane is that? They show footage of burglars break open front doors, but a dedroom door is going to stop them cold in their tracks?

Well, getting into a defensive position and letting the perp come to you has been shown time and again to be the most effective strategy by far, and I do not know why anyone would call it "insane".

All real experts I know of recommend that approach.

On the other hand, grabbing a baseball bat and heading to the door leaves on vulnerable to being overpowered, shot, or ambushed by an accomplice entering through a different point of ingress, and for one who adopts that strategy during a real emergency, his days of doing that may be over very quickly indeed.

C0untZer0
March 7, 2012, 02:00 PM
Taking up a defensive position is one thing - locking your door and dialing 911 is another.

Where your defensive position is depends on a lot of factors such as - the layout of the house, how much fore warning you have of the break-in etc...

For some people - it is a place in the hall, in front of the kid's bedroom, maybe it's at a staircase, maybe it is your bedroom door - it depends.

output
March 7, 2012, 02:37 PM
I cannot understand that way of thinking. It is okay to be a victim apparently?

I do not think their “experts” were talking about locking your bedroom door and taking a defensive position. It seemed to me as if they were actually recommending that you hide in a closet or behind a bedroom door and hope that the police get to you in time.

If the intruder really wants to harm you I do not think your bedroom door is going to stop them especially if your front door did not do a good job.

Locking a door, taking up a defensive position, and calling the police is one thing. Locking the door and hiding while you call the police and hoping you do not become a victim is entirely something else. I vaguely remember reading somewhere recently that the average police response time in the US is between 7-10 minutes. A lot can go wrong in 7-10 minutes, but even that seems like a really fast response time. What happens when you live in a city like Detroit? I have read that the average police response time in Detroit is well over 30 minutes right now if they respond within the same day...

OldMarksman
March 7, 2012, 04:02 PM
Posted by C0untZer0: Taking up a defensive position is one thing - locking your door and dialing 911 is another.Are you recommending against locking the door or against dialing 911, or both?

Posted by output: I do not think their “experts” were talking about locking your bedroom door and taking a defensive position. It seemed to me as if they were actually recommending that you hide in a closet or behind a bedroom door and hope that the police get to you in time. What is it about "lock the door to the room that you are in and call 911" that would lead anyone to that conclusion?

Of course, any reasonable person, however armed and however prepared, would hope that the police arrive in time, though that may be unlikely. The ten year old girl in the news story had no other alternative.

Locking a door, taking up a defensive position, and calling the police is one thing. Locking the door and hiding while you call the police and hoping you do not become a victim is entirely something else.How so?

Vermonter
March 7, 2012, 04:36 PM
Currently my household consists of my better half and a dog. We all sleep in the bedroom at night and the front door is locked and barricaded with a door knob brace.

The only other door to my home is a second story glass slider that would be difficult to access in the least. That is broom handled so the only way to break in is to break glass. This would be followed by a woof wooff click click. (dog and shotgun for those of you who have your funny censor turned off)

Basically the only way into my home is to make a hell of a lot of noise. We sleep with the door closed and locked anyway so therefore I would 911 and we would hold our position in the bedroom.

There is however a large portion of my home where there is no safe spot between us and the front and back door. In other words I would have to pass the threat to get to the bedroom and so forth. In this situation I am at an advantage if I meet the threat head on.

Regards, Vermonter

output
March 7, 2012, 05:10 PM
Of course, any reasonable person, however armed and however prepared, would hope that the police arrive in time, though that may be unlikely.

Exactly. I would also hope that any reasonable person would have a backup plan of some sort. Not just "hope" everything will be okay if they lock their door.

I think we are all responsible for our own selfdefense/wellbeing to a certain degree. Are we not?

How so?

Expecting a reasonable law-abiding citizen to defend themselves "lawfully" if need be is reasonable. Expecting someone to be a victim is not okay in my opinion.

markj
March 7, 2012, 05:27 PM
Springfield ILL. anti gun state there or what?

Glenn E. Meyer
March 7, 2012, 07:46 PM
If the suggestion is that you go on the offensive, so to speak - that's a bad idea unless you have to rescue a loved one - kid, spouse, etc.

Hunkering down behind a locked door and calling the law is smart. So is being able to trigger the alarm from your safe area.

Yep, it might offend your guardian of the universe worldview - get over it.

KyJim
March 7, 2012, 08:15 PM
I can tell you from near personal experience that hunkering down and calling 911 is the right thing to do if you can.

A few years ago, my two daughters (12 and 14 at the time) were sleeping late during summer when a thief broke through a window and climbed into my bedroom. He had knocked on the door first to see if anyone was home. They didn't answer but this woke up my oldest daughter and when she heard him coming in, she went into my youngest daughter's bedroom. They couldn't escape because they were in a room immediately across the hallway from my bedroom where the thief entered. They hunkered down and called 911. Fortunately, there was a patrol car on the street and they caught the thief inside our house.

Now, I know you can't count on such an immediate response by the police but the point is that they minimized their risk and let the police handle it. Good advice, IMO. Of course, I firmly believe you should have a gun while hunkering down -- just in case.

MLeake
March 7, 2012, 09:58 PM
I think what C0untZer0 was saying was less on the lines of "go on the offensive" and more on the lines of:

1) Unless one has invested in a solid-core bedroom door, strong locks, and a reinforced door frame, one probably has a door that can be kicked in by a junior high cheerleader - ergo, the ABC recommendation left out some critical details (install the right door and parts, and have a weapon);

2) Depending on home layout and disposition of family members, retreat to the bedroom may not be feasible;

3) Other defensive positions might make more sense, depending on who is where - in my home, defending from the top of the stairs might make sense, if I had people in the guest bedrooms, for example.

lawnboy
March 7, 2012, 10:06 PM
If they are after your stuff, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 may work.

If they are after you, which is often the case in home invasions, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 will only buy you a little time. I can get through my bedroom doors with nothing but my shoulder in less than 5 seconds.

From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide". This is weak, helpless nonsense.

While I think establishing a defensive position behind a locked door may sometimes be the way to go, I won't be "just hiding".

OldMarksman
March 7, 2012, 10:25 PM
Posted by lawnboy: If they are after your stuff, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 may work.

If they are after you, which is often the case in home invasions, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 will only buy you a little time. I can get through my bedroom doors with nothing but my shoulder in less than 5 seconds.True enough.

From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide". That was not my take at all.

Of course, the video, which was edited to fit a time slot, was not comprehensive. My take is that the reporters consulted some qualified experts, who properly advised that the thing to do is to assume a defensive position.

This is weak, helpless nonsense.OK. Had you been the 911 dispatcher, what would you have told the children?

Mobuck
March 7, 2012, 10:35 PM
Around here, the deputies might be so long in arriving the bad guys could take all your goodies and burn your house down around you before the law is onsite.
My choice is to take care of the problem as needed and let the deputies record the results.

C0untZer0
March 7, 2012, 10:50 PM
What the ABC report does is it takes an example of a 10 year old girl sucessfully hiding in a closet with her brothers and sets that as the best thing to do according to "security experts"

He ends by saying:

apparantly we can all learn alot from that 10 year old girl.

Three children in a very bad situation. That's about all they can do. Probably the best advice to give children.

But this is a morning news program - it's not a kids program. They're taking a situation that happened to a 10 year old and subtly spinning it as advice to all adults.

Would I advocate that children hide in a closet or cubby hole? Yes.

Is that what a father or a mother or generally what the adult population should do.

No - I think it's bad tactics.

I'm not advocating clearing a house, I do believe in taking up a defensive position. Again - I say it depends on the situation and the layout of the house. If you can get your loved ones all gathered together in a safe room, lock the door and wait - that's great. It's predicated on being alarmed to the break-in and having time to marshall everyone together.

Are you recommending against locking the door or against dialing 911, or both?

My defensive position based on the layout of my home is the hallway leading to my bedroom and my kid's bedroom.

My kid's room has 2 doors, one to the hallway and one to the bathroom. If I let intruders get through that choke point - assuming they continue the attack after shots are fired, I now have 2 entrances to gaurd and I've given concealment to the assailants.

So my defensive point is not behind a locked door - I have to have visibility into that hallway.

As far as dialling 911, I'm not against it, but the cell phone is not a "valuable weapon to protect those around you" as Diane Sawyer erroneously stated in her rather slanted piece on guns. I recognize the importance of a phone but I don't plan to delay arming myself while I talk on it. I'm armed first, in position second, (if the situation allows) and then dialling 911 third (again - if the situation allows).

orionengnr
March 7, 2012, 10:59 PM
From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide". This is weak, helpless nonsense.
This is what nearly all 911 operators and ALL MSM reporters espouse.

They are trying to turn us into England (do a search).

Any time you see George Stephanopolous as part of a report, you had better know which direction it is going to be spinning. :rolleyes:

C0untZer0
March 7, 2012, 11:12 PM
Well I know this particular aspect doesn't have anything to do with tactics but that one 911 operator is a little odd.

The 911 operator says

Maam, did you shoot AGAIN ?


It's like he's exasperated. He doesn't say "Maam, what happened?" "Maam I thought I heard shots, are you alright?"

No, it's like "Are you still shooting that guy? Enough is enough already... when are you going to stop?" :rolleyes:

lawnboy
March 7, 2012, 11:13 PM
OldMarksman wrote:
OK. Had you been the 911 dispatcher, what would you have told the children?

I'm not commenting on the specific instance. I'm commenting on what I see as the point of pieces like this by media outlets. The point of pieces like the one posted above, and this one

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-gun-encounters-doesnt-safer.html

and statements by government officials like this one:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/1/dcs-crime-solution-be-a-victim/

is to get people not to take steps to be responsible for their own defense. Especially not if it involves fighting back (and really, really especially if it involves using firearms!). I see it as part of the anti-gun agenda.

You are free to see it as you will.

Nnobby45
March 7, 2012, 11:27 PM
I cannot understand that way of thinking. It is okay to be a victim apparently?



You sound like you understand just fine. Liberals are the supreme advocate of victimhood---even to the extent of making it the law if they can.

You know how it works. A woman is kidnapped and murdered and when they find the body a couple hundred people hold a candlelight vigil. They bring flowers and Teddy Bears, sing songs and deliver a glowing eulogy with regards to what a great person she was.

Same woman perforates the bastards frame with .38 Special DPX or Speer Gold Dot, and she'll find out who her real friends and supporters are.

The truth is, fighting back is against the principles of the candlelight vigilantes, who are embarassed that someone would actually defend their life and prevail while they would never consider such a thing.

NO, not slamming all those who attend the candlelight ceremony (I've been to one). Just the ones whose support is non existent when the victim fights back and survives, maybe killing her attacker in the process.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:

output
March 8, 2012, 08:10 AM
What the ABC report does is it takes an example of a 10 year old girl sucessfully hiding in a closet with her brothers and sets that as the best thing to do according to "security experts"

He ends by saying:

apparantly we can all learn alot from that 10 year old girl.



That was my take on the report as well.

I was not advocating going on the offense either. I was suggesting that is best to have a backup plan, and to take up a defensive position while you are in your bedroom, safe room, etc. Just in case the police are not able to respond in time. Every situation will vary but having a plan to protect your family if need be is highly recommended.

I also agree that the children in the report were in a very bad situation and responded to the situation as best they could have. That advice is about the best you can give small children.

TailGator
March 8, 2012, 11:50 AM
To me, the point of the story was that criminals are becoming more brazen and dangerous, and that viewers should think about how they are going to respond. I join the reporters in thinking that the 10 year old girl did pretty well, but I didn't really feel like they condemned the armed homeowners who defended themselves. With or without a pistol in your hand, an early 911 call stands the best chance of getting someone else there who is going to be on your side.

In this forum, we preach to the choir when we say that a phone shouldn't be our only defense, but for some people it is, and a lot of people haven't given a moment's thought about what else they would need to do to survive such a scenario. If that report causes a few people to consider such things, it is a good thing. I didn't find the report to be particularly offensive or objectionable.

OldMarksman
March 8, 2012, 01:47 PM
I agree with Gator.

lawnboy
March 8, 2012, 02:21 PM
To me, the point of the story was that criminals are becoming more brazen and dangerous, and that viewers should think about how they are going to respond. I join the reporters in thinking that the 10 year old girl did pretty well, but I didn't really feel like they condemned the armed homeowners who defended themselves. With or without a pistol in your hand, an early 911 call stands the best chance of getting someone else there who is going to be on your side.

In this forum, we preach to the choir when we say that a phone shouldn't be our only defense, but for some people it is, and a lot of people haven't given a moment's thought about what else they would need to do to survive such a scenario. If that report causes a few people to consider such things, it is a good thing. I didn't find the report to be particularly offensive or objectionable.

The old saying goes "half of life is just showing up". This is true. But it is also the half of life that everyone does whether they try or not. The other half of life is where the action is. And the opportunity.

It is in the DNA of humans to run and hide in the face of danger. No one has to tell anyone that. This is the "just showing up" part. Since no one has to tell a person to run away, I automatically look with suspicion on any "informative" news story that feels the need to reinforce it. Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away? What might be their motive?

A truly informative piece by ABC would have established that after you've run away as best you can, you should be prepared to continue to defend yourself with whatever you have, whether that is a baseball bat, other improvised weapon, a knife or a firearm. The piece would have pointed out that if you have to improvise a weapon after running away you haven't been as thorough as you might have been in your planning. Improvisation implies an oversight. Planning to continue defending yourself with weapons would be in addition to the "just showing up" part.

Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.

This is about what I expect from ABC. Which is why I don't get my information about surviving attacks, or doing anything else, from them.

I don't think the piece was offensive or objectionable. People are free to make themselves easy prey. But I see an agenda here that I don't agree with.

OldMarksman
March 8, 2012, 02:53 PM
Posted by lawnboy: It is in the DNA of humans to run and hide in the face of danger. No one has to tell anyone that.Well, maybe, but the vast majority of the "this happened to me" stories that one reads here and on other gun boards would lead one to believe that it is programmed into the minds of many uninformed and untrained armed citizens to arm themselves and go forth to confront trouble. Advising people to not do that is a good idea.

Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away?They did not. They advised locking the door and calling 911--and that's the best simple advice to give. To talk about a parent rounding up the children first, for example, would be far too complicated for a short news blurb.

Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.I draw no such conclusion. I detected no hint of an opinion that the several defensive shootings mentioned in the piece were not "good shoots", to use the vernacular.

Advice on weapons would be far too specific for a general news article.

Onward Allusion
March 8, 2012, 03:36 PM
All real experts I know of recommend that approach.

It depends on the situation. If the BGs are already in and there are other family members in the house, there's no way I'd get separated from them.

As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm. It takes a few seconds to break down a door. In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before. Yes, I carry at home. I pretty much carry at all waking hours.

If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.

rburch
March 8, 2012, 03:52 PM
It's ABC.

Does anybody here really expect them to advocate using a Gun to defend yourself?

Weren't they the ones that set up that impossible situation to "prove" that CCW couldn't stop a school shooting? Or was that NBC?

Sadly mainstream media has an agenda when it comes to guns, and that means the odds of gun ownership getting a fair story is slim to none.

As for the tactics, find a good choke point that's defensible and defend it. If you can then by all means call 911, but don't depend on that to save you.

KyJim
March 8, 2012, 04:55 PM
I don't think anybody here is advocating that you bend over and touch your toes if there's an intrusion. You should arm yourself and, if circumstances permit, gather the family. Only then do you hunker down, call 911, and blast the hell out of the BG if he comes into the room where you are. Leave the "room clearing" to the professionals unless there is no other choice.

markj
March 8, 2012, 05:20 PM
Well after we had the school lockdown due to a 911 call of a suspicious person report then reading the guy was breaking into properties 1 mile from our place. Wife asked for a pistol to be in close proximity to where she sleeps as she works nights. Now she is adamant about getting the permit and her own gun. She does know how to shoot and such. Burglers are getting bolder as 2 or 3 folks actually saw him walking away with their stuff in hand.

Dog in the house, locked doors etc.

OldMarksman
March 8, 2012, 06:06 PM
Posted by Onward Allusion: If the BGs are already in and there are other family members in the house, there's no way I'd get separated from them.I believe that the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion is to get family members to safety, whether or not the bad guys are already in.

As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm.Why's that?

It takes a few seconds to break down a door.Well, yeah, and should someone do that, it would provide incontrovertible evidence against any possible indications that might otherwise rebut an assumption that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary.

In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before.I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.

Yes, I carry at home. I pretty much carry at all waking hours.Good idea. Too many people base their preparations on the assumption that an invasion will occur while they are in the bedroom or otherwise able to access their defensive firearms before being cut off from them or otherwise engaged by one or more violent criminal actors.

If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down.Personally, I believe that is the best strategy to dal with a criminal invasion at any time of day.

Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.i would imagine that that is one of the reasons for the advice given by the unnamed experts to the ABC reporters.

lawnboy
March 8, 2012, 06:06 PM
I wrote:
Quote:
Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away?

Oldmarksman answered:

They did not. They advised locking the door and calling 911--and that's the best simple advice to give. To talk about a parent rounding up the children first, for example, would be far too complicated for a short news blurb.

It's a matter of interpretation. I include the locking the door part as "running away". It certainly has its place. If it's all you have you should try to do better.

I think calling 911 is a fine idea, if it doesn't get in the way of actually defending yourself. If it is a choice for me to make the call or go get my gun I'm going to get the gun. If I can do both so much the better.

I wrote:

Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.

Oldmarksman wrote:

I draw no such conclusion. I detected no hint of an opinion that the several defensive shootings mentioned in the piece were not "good shoots", to use the vernacular

You are less cynical than me. I did detect such an opinion. In organizations or people who have displayed anti-gun and anti 2A opinion in the past I always assume nefarious intent until they show me otherwise. I think I'm on fairly safe ground with my assumptions considering we're talking about ABC and George Stepanopolous (Stephanopolous is a big shot. Big shots on camera have a great degree of editorial control).

It is my unscientific but considered opinion that stories, news reports and other forms of media highlighting the "danger" of having guns and defending yourself with guns or just defending yourself in general are becoming more frequent. I believe that this is a direct and purposeful response to the proliferation of gun related TV media over the last few years. Gun/hunting/shooting shows on TV have resulted in large increases in gun ownership. People well into adulthood who were never before exposed to firearms or self defense are now taking an interest in both. Anecdotal evidence of full ranges and empty ammo shelves abounds.

Imagine how the Brady crowd feels about this? After years of success in weakening gun rights and "educating" the un-informed to fear and dread firearms they now find themselves losing ground. Losing a LOT of ground. Can we expect them to sit and take it? I don't think so. I think they'll pull together whatever allies they have and counterattack the counterattack. I see pieces like this one on ABC as part of that.

I have no secret meeting minutes to show you, but if ABC and George S. aren't on the "allies" list of the Brady crowd I'd be very surprised.

C0untZer0
March 8, 2012, 09:24 PM
I don't think that locking the door to some interior room and calling 911 is a good strategy per se. It may be good tactics, depending on the layout of the home - but it shouldn't be touted as some default thing to do.

I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.

^ I think you've hit on why "lock the door - call 911" may be bad de facto tactic. It can be the equivilant of putting blindfolds on. You've basically given the assailant(s) concealment and the ability to get within 10 to 15 feet of you.

On the other hand, if they pop the door and enter, you've created a choke point and you have the advantage of knowing where the attack is coming from while the in truder has the disadvantage of not knowing initially where he's going to be taking fire from.

But haves you chosen the best posible defensive position?

If there is a better choke point or defensive position in your home, why eschew a superior defensive position and adopt an inferior one based on a knee-jerk philosophy of "lock the door - dial 911?"

Patriot86
March 8, 2012, 10:36 PM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc8_1187887010

Watch that video and you tell your wife or daughter to lock herself in a room and hope the police get there in time.

My wife knows, someone comes in the house its time for the 9mm surprise...

I live in a relatively small condo, so there is not really anywhere for an intruder to "hide" the only two viable entry points are in the open. The plan if someone breaks in is for my wife to call 911 gun in hand while I go confront the threat. God forbid I am compromised you would have to be one hell of a lucky guy to have someone who is familiar with firearms miss you 17 times as you came through a doorway at less than 8 feet so at least I know she would safe.

Onward Allusion
March 8, 2012, 11:58 PM
OldMarksman
<SNIP>
Quote:
As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm.

Why's that?

Because if someone is breaking into your house when they know someone is home, it is pretty obvious that they don't give a crap about your welfare and intend to do you harm.

Quote:
It takes a few seconds to break down a door.

Well, yeah, and should someone do that, it would provide incontrovertible evidence against any possible indications that might otherwise rebut an assumption that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary.

Quote:
In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before.

I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.

Ok, let me clarify. The first thing I would do is scream out - "Get the -blank- away from my door!". Then I'll give them 1 second. If they continue, I will shoot to stop the break in. Anyone willing to break down your door when they know someone's home is not there to sell you Girl Scout Cookies. They are intending on doing you harm. At a recent community policing lecture, the officer presenting stated exactly that. EXACTLY - and I would agree 100% with him. Our's is a Castle Doctrine State. If one is really that concerned for bystanders, then shoot low.

<SNIP>

Quote:
If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down.

Personally, I believe that is the best strategy to dal with a criminal invasion at any time of day.

We somewhat agree. It really depends on the stage of the break-in/invasion (see above).

Quote:
Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
i would imagine that that is one of the reasons for the advice given by the unnamed experts to the ABC reporters.

I can't re-iterate this enough. Clearing a house is a last resort. I had an opportunity to train on this recently and it was probably one of the most intense things I've done - and that was just practice!

OldMarksman
March 9, 2012, 07:39 AM
Posted by C0untZer0: I think you've hit on why "lock the door - call 911" may be bad de facto tactic. It can be the equivilant of putting blindfolds on. You've basically given the assailant(s) concealment and the ability to get within 10 to 15 feet of you.In no way can my suggestion that trying to shoot someone through a closed door be interpreted as pointing out why locking the door and calling 911 is a "bad de facto tactic".

On the other hand, if they pop the door and enter, you've created a choke pnoint aned you have the advafntage oknowing where the attack is comindg from while the in truder has the disaedvantage of not knowing initially wherel he's going to be taking fibre fromi.Q.E.D.

But haves you chosen the best posible defensive position?Great question!

A few years ago, The Best Defense had a segment on what do do if a violent criminal actor broke in and tried to attack a resident.

In each scenario, step one was to get into a safe-room, lock the door, access a firearm, and call 911. In the "best defense" scenario, the resident got behind cover that was not directly in line with the door so the intruder, if armed, would have more difficulty locating his target upon entry so the defender could fire first.

They also discussed planning the defensive position in such a manner as to provide a good back stop.

I took both aspects to heart, but that's way beyond the scope of a short TV news segment.

And not to go off topic, but again way beyond the scope of the news report, I concluded from the scenarios on that segment of The Best Defense that having to win a foot race to access a firearm was not a desirable thing.

That led me to decide to carry at home. Of course, when one thinks about it, defense against someone who rushes in from, say, the hall into the kitchen may not allow one the chance to lock a door or to call 911 before firing, but if the opportunity presents itself, getting (everyone) into a safe room, locking the door, and calling 911 is almost always the best default tactic.

Depending upon their motives, mindset, and immediate needs, invaders who have been informed that the defenders are armed and that the police have been called may well decide that breaking down the door is a poor second choice in comparison to making their escape, which is always the best outcome.

johnwilliamson062
March 9, 2012, 01:44 PM
Top of the stairway. I'm not saying they won't make it up the stairs, but they will have an eventful climb.

boostedtt91
March 9, 2012, 03:44 PM
im guessing most of these so called "experts" are all part of the anti-gun party and think that nobody should be allowed to defend themselves except for hiding and calling 911 which is plain worthless in my eyes. If someone is trying to break into my house for any reason, do you think you really have time to call 911 and wait for the police to show up? I dont think so... First thing im doing is getting my weapon and going to a corner of a room where i can see every angle of the room. So if they do come into that room, they are gonna wish they didnt

OldMarksman
March 9, 2012, 04:04 PM
Posted by boostedtt91: im guessing most of these so called "experts" are all part of the anti-gun party and think that nobody should be allowed to defend themselves except for hiding and calling 911 which is plain worthless in my eyes.Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.

If someone is trying to break into my house for any reason, do you think you really have time to call 911 and wait for the police to show up? I dont think so... Whether you will have time for someone to call 911 before having to defend yourself will depend upon circumstances, but if it is possible it is a very good idea.

First thing im doing is getting my weapon and going to a corner of a room where i can see every angle of the room. So if they do come into that room, they are gonna wish they didntI'm not sure what your home layout is, but one would generally be best served by getting his or her weapon and getting behind concealment, if cover is not possible, where it is possible to see the path by which the invaders would have to approach.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 9, 2012, 08:44 PM
I again ask if folks who say that will do things, like go into the corner, have tried such in force on force. There are people who know how to deal with something standing in corner.

As far as the experts being part of the antigun party - have you met any of them? I suggest it as they would be annoyed with you.

Nnobby45
March 11, 2012, 12:17 AM
I believe that the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion is to get family members to safety, whether or not the bad guys are already in.


Don't think so. Who could believe that your family is safer if you allow home invaders into your home under the mistaken belief that escorting your family to safety is the first priority---knowing they'll be MUCH harder to deal with once they're in?

Your family should know how to go to safety on their own. GUARD THE DOOR! That's when Bubba and his friends are most vulnerable.

If they're already in the house, then I agree that getting them to safety is the best course.

TexasJustice7
March 11, 2012, 06:49 AM
OldMarksman: Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.

I live in an apartment, one way in and one way out. I will be hid behind cover to open fire as they come through the living room door, just about the only way to get in. I won't be calling 911 till the gunfight is over, because I will not give away my position to the intruders. There is no exit to retreat. I am confident that I can stop any one, two or three intruders coming through the door with my S&W 625-5 45 Long Colt and my CA Bulldog 44 Spl.

My home is not the typical one which might have 2 or 3 ways to get in or out. Once the gunfight is over, I will then call 911. Intruders with good hearing might hear someone dialing and know which way to direct their gunfire. Armed or unarmed they will not make it beyond the living room door.

I do understand however, that others who have a way to exit their home to escape with family might choose that option. I do not have an option except to stop them at the entry point. :eek:

Nnobby45
March 11, 2012, 03:33 PM
Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.

Taking up a defensive position and being willing to fight, if necessary, IS confronting an intruder. Best time to do it is before they get in. The safe room is the next place to make your stand if they are in.

Perhaps what you mean is that going out from your position of cover to confront them once they are in your house is not recommended. I agree.

OldMarksman
March 12, 2012, 07:41 AM
Posted by Nnobby45: GUARD THE DOOR! That's when Bubba and his friends are most vulnerable.I suppose one might be able to try that if there is one and one and only one door, the invasion attempt has been detected before it occurs, there is no other possible point of ingress, and that door can be defended from a safe place.

Nnobby45
March 12, 2012, 06:00 PM
I suppose one might be able to try that if there is one and one and only one door, the invasion attempt has been detected before it occurs, there is no other possible point of ingress, and that door can be defended from a safe place.

Thanks for pointing that out, Marksman. I hadn't realized that defending the door they were trying to break through was so complicated. Now I've got to consider that the front door is just a diversion to the main attack coming through the back door, at least one bedroom window, and maybe a garage doggie door simultaneously. :D

CaptainObvious
March 12, 2012, 06:26 PM
I can't see any other option but going on the offensive. The distances involved in your house are not hundreds of feet, but a matter of feet and the intruder in those videos is moving fast. They will get to you in a few seconds. You probably wont have time to grab your pistol or even make a phonecall. Will you have time to run into the bedroom and lock it? You might be able to throw on the privacy lock which is on most bedroom doors, but that is not going to stop anyone. They will kick that in easily and then what?

Lets talk real tactics. You throw whatever you can at the attacker and scream profanity and threats. For example, I see a mug, a small table, a chair and some books in the room I am in. Grab and throw right at the head. Landing a blow on the body won't do anything but delay their forward momentum.

If you have a pistol, then get behind something to conceal yourself and get into a low profile position covering the open area. If you can retreat out of a door or window then do it but chances are the intruder will be moving so fast you wont have that opportunity. Once you see them, you can go ahead and yell a warning, but if they had enough courage to come through the door then they are probably armed and will ignore your shouted warnings. Then its time to lay down a triple-tap and open fire.

The woman in the video did make a mistake. She shot one round which didnt stop the attacker so she had to hit him again. If you intend to shoot, then do a double or triple tap. No matter what caliber you are using one round isnt going to stop anyone unless you get lucky and hit them where it truly counts. If a burglar hits my house then they will be lucky if they come out of the house with just one round. Im going to triple tap and most likely they will be leaving here in the Coroner's wagon. Thats not my fault though. If someone breaks down the door looking to rob and hurt me then they came looking for trouble and I am going to defend myself.

I respect all of the well know trainers, but this is the real world I live in. I am right now sitting a matter of 10 or so feet from the entrance of my home. If someone comes through that door right now then there is certainly no way I will have time to run to the bedroom. More likely, this notebook computer Im typing on will be the first object thrown at their head.

old bear
March 12, 2012, 07:15 PM
Well, getting into a defensive position and letting the perp come to you has been shown time and again to be the most effective strategy by far, and I do not know why anyone would call it "insane".

All real experts I know of recommend that approach.


AA +1,

I've decided, if possible my "last stand" will be at the top of the inside stairs. If needed I can prone out, stand, or kneel behind a corner wall which has a triple stud support corner.

If I can't pick the time of the fight at least I can pick the place.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
You probably wont have time to grab your pistol or even make a phonecall

There is a misperception going on. First, some folks are talking about hearing an intruder and having time to respond. Thus, you hunker down as compared to going house clearing while racking your shotgun repeatedly (sly wit).

If the door crashes in and it is deliberately targeting you - throwing mugs won't do squat or will charging like Tarzan.

Lots of folks carry a gun around the house. Silly not and easy to do with today's compact guns.

But to repeat, if you face a crew and you have time to retrieve a gun and you then go looking for them - that is not advised.

CaptainObvious
March 12, 2012, 08:49 PM
This is what we teach in self defense classes around here all the time. If someone is coming at you then you use whatever object you can grab and throw it at their head. This will cause attacker to throw up their hands or duck which will distract them for a second or two. During that crucial time then you can manuever out of the way. You want the attacker to lose their line of sight and slow their forward momentum.

The command voice is the first line of defense for everyone and will harden you as a target. It will also help pump that needed adrenaline into you to prepare for a physical fight. Yelling might scare or distract them. It will let them know that if they come in close their will be a fight. Sometimes yelling the right words can make the attacker think twice.

When defending yourself hand to hand then you have to remember the goal is trying to get away. Its not a prize fight and the goal is not to knock then out. Simply put, you are basically trying to distract and disorient to buy a few seconds so you can escape. There are some great self defense classes out there which are designed for women, but men can take away a lot from them. I paid to take this course out of my own pocket and learned a lot from it. It also teaches you how to handle multiple attackers in an ambush situation.

http://www.rad-systems.com/

If someone came through my door right now while Im laying down on the couch with my laptop I know I would not be able to escape nor would I be able to go for my pistol or make a phonecall. The only thing I could do is throw whatever object I have in my hand and yell at the top of my lungs then try to escape. The general idea is evade, escape and resist.

There are specially built security screen doors with deadbolts which make home invasion more difficult. I have these on my home making the frontal attack on the entranceway less likely. Of course, there are other ways in like a rock through the window, but the security screen will at least close the entranceway loophole.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?keyword=security+screen+door&selectedCatgry=SEARCH+ALL&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1

L_Killkenny
March 12, 2012, 09:15 PM
I have no problem with the advice of locking your door and calling the fuzz and obviously they can't cover every scenario for every individule in a 5 min news clip. Personally I think some of us gun nuts can be a little thin skinned and some think any advice that doesn't include the words "shoot and shoot again" is anti gun. Run away and live to run away another day is a creedo I'd like to live by. Clearing houses is dumb. Clearing your yard is dumb. Both of which I've done for what ever reason crawled into my behind. I was dumb.

LK

Glenn E. Meyer
March 13, 2012, 09:39 AM
Why not wear or carry a gun? Simple question. As I said, a serious attack isn't going to be deterred by yelling and screaming and charging right at them.

They have broken in noisly and probably expect such. That's different from a H2H mugger on the street.

If you are seriously considering a violent break-in, carry a gun and cut the coffee cup gung fu.

OldMarksman
March 13, 2012, 11:11 AM
Posted by CaptainObvious: Lets talk real tactics. You throw whatever you can at the attacker and scream profanity and threats. For example, I see a mug, a small table, a chair and some books in the room I am in. Grab and throw right at the head. Landing a blow on the body won't do anything but delay their forward momentum.And then what?

That seems like a losing strategy to me.

I am right now sitting a matter of 10 or so feet from the entrance of my home. If someone comes through that door right now then there is certainly no way I will have time to run to the bedroom.Some years ago I was sitting in the living room looking at the front door, which is at the bottom of the stairs, and it occurred to me that I would be unable to get to the firearm in the bedroom if someone were to come in through that door.

I had been reading a couple of discussions here. One was about stashing firearms in more than one location. The other was about carrying at home. At first thought, the latter idea seemed preposterous, so I was contemplating the former.

It occurred to me that a home invader might suddenly and violently breach that front door, cutting me off from the stairs. I realized that there were other possibilities. One was that an intruder might enter through either of two back doors on the first floor; depending upon where I happened to be at the time, I would either be cut off or engaged in a footrace to the bedroom, perhaps leaving my wife in danger. And than there was the possibility of an sudden entrance into the first floor area from the door to the basement. And there are windows to take into account.

The more I reflected upon the possibilities, the more I realized that (1) the firearm in the bedroom would likely be of little use to me unless a break-in occurred while we happened to be in the bedroom, and (2) here were no desirable and effective ways to stash other firearms here and there.

There was one obvious answer, suggested here by Glenn E. Meyer: "Why not wear or carry a gun? Simple question".

The place from where you may have to defend yourself could be anywhere in the house.

MLeake
March 13, 2012, 12:08 PM
To add to that thought, stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child (the finder or a friend).

The gun on my person is not only handy for me, but it's not easily available to another.

C0untZer0
March 13, 2012, 12:21 PM
^ I agree stashing guns all over is a bad idea, but I think having a gun bedside and a gun in your closet (not accesable to children) is not a bad idea.

I think it may be that some people do this anyway, they may keep a handgun by the bed and a long gun in the closet.

OldMarksman
March 13, 2012, 12:39 PM
Posted by MLeake: To add to that thought, stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child (the finder or a friend).

The gun on my person is not only handy for me, but it's not easily available to another.All very true, and considered in my decision process.

Posted by C0untZer0: I think having a gun bedside and a gun in your closet (not accesable to children) is not a bad idea.

I think it may be that some people do this anyway, they may keep a handgun by the bed and a long gun in the closet.

What is embarrassing to me is that I relied exclusively upon that approach from 1967 (and earlier, during periods in which I was home from college) through 2008, until it finally dawned on me that the firearms would only be useful if an intrusion occurred while I was in or near the bedroom.

Most of the burglaries in our area (and perhaps, most everywhere) occur during the daytime. The majority have involved rear entrances or side windows.

All four that I have experienced did occur after dark. One, which involved a third floor fire escape, happened just after my wife had driven away. In the other three, the invaders knew or should have known that the residences were occupied; of those, two were violent. In none of those did firing become necessary.

Frank Ettin
March 13, 2012, 12:53 PM
...stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child...Our solution to that issue is to use a number of lock-boxes. Theses are stashed around the house -- hidden but readily accessible. Only my wife an I have the combinations, and each contains a loaded gun, extra ammunition and a Surefire flashlight.

Wherever we are in the house we're only several steps away from a readily accessible, but secure, gun.

Darren Roberts
March 13, 2012, 02:24 PM
Locked boxes, great for storage, but do you think in reality you can get to unlock and prepare the firearm for firing in any reasonable time in a home invasion situation? Locked boxes, gun safes, etc...are for keeping your guns away from children or thieves. A locked up gun is useless in a home invasion...unless you take the reports suggestion and get to a safe place.

I think almost everyone is reading way to much into these reports.
Obviously what happens and individual reactions are going to depend on the specific scenario. Anyone who gets on here and says..."I will do this" or "I will not do this"...is foolish. You may sit here in front of your computer and tout your defensive genious and go on about how you'll double tap or triple tap the invader..but what situations have you been in to measure your abilities to
1. Recognize a threat
2. React to the threat
3. Fire accurate rounds at a target
And lets not forget the largest factor in the scenario...THERE IS A BAD GUY COMING AFTER YOU!!
Its amazing how many people get a gun and think they are John Wayne. Good way to get yourself or your family killed.

The reports gave great general advise for the general public. Evade...get away...RUN!!! Anything else is putting yourself and possibly your family at risk.

If you can not get away, then by all means defend youself how you can with what you can.

Frank Ettin
March 13, 2012, 02:47 PM
Locked boxes, great for storage, but do you think in reality you can get to unlock and prepare the firearm for firing in any reasonable time...The Lock-boxes we use have a touch-key combination and can be opened without looking in less than one second -- and yes, we practice. The guns require no preparation for firing. They are loaded and ready.

C0untZer0
March 13, 2012, 04:48 PM
I just remebered the case of Hale DeMar - his defense of his home is responsible for the Hale DeMar law in Illinois which precluded towns like Chicago, Wilmette and others from punishing a person with municipal ordinances:

http://reason.com/archives/2005/06/01/self-defense-vsmunicipal-gun-b/singlepage

One of the things that the Wilmette Chief of Police said is that DeMar should have stayed upstairs with his son and his 8-year-old daughter, Madeline, instead of seeking a confrontation. Our culture seems to define the family protector's role as seeking out the enemy, or the intruder," he says. "What we tell people is: You're the last line of defense. Don't leave your family.

DeMar explains his actions this way: "I suppose some would have grabbed their children and cowered in their bedroom...praying that the police would get there in time to stop the criminal from climbing the stairs and confronting the family in a bedroom, trembling, dreading the sound of the door being kicked in. That's not the fear I wanted my children to experience, and it is not the cowardly act that I want my children to remember me by."


^ not necesarily good tactics but a pretty cool quote.

Frank Ettin
March 13, 2012, 05:26 PM
"I suppose some would have grabbed their children and cowered in their bedroom...praying that the police would get there in time to stop the criminal from climbing the stairs and confronting the family in a bedroom, trembling, dreading the sound of the door being kicked in. That's not the fear I wanted my children to experience, and it is not the cowardly act that I want my children to remember me by." ^ not necesarily good tactics but a pretty cool quote. Or someone might withdraw with his family to a defensible positions and wait, armed, prepared and ready to engage, if the intruder is unwise enough to enter.

Assuming that the defender, having taken a defensible position, will be waiting trembling with fear is completely unwarranted.

MLeake
March 13, 2012, 08:27 PM
fiddletown, while I agree with you in principle, I do have to point out that kids might not be able to tell the difference between trembling in fear, and trembling due to an adrenaline overload from the fight or flight response.

I also have to point out that courage isn't an absence of fear, it's doing what needs to be done even when one is terrified.

Frank Ettin
March 13, 2012, 08:50 PM
fiddletown, while I agree with you in principle, I do have to point out that kids might not be able to tell the difference between trembling in fear, and trembling due to an adrenaline overload from the fight or flight response.

I also have to point out that courage isn't an absence of fear, it's doing what needs to be done even when one is terrified. That's all true.

But the points we all need to keep in mind are (1) doing what is tactically appropriate is not a display of cowardice; and (2) the mission is to secure the safety of one's family, not make a grand gesture.

MLeake
March 14, 2012, 04:00 AM
Like I said, I agree with you in principle, and on tactics. Perhaps I am nitpicking, although I don't think I am.

But the kids might still think Daddy is trembling in fear. Doesn't mean Daddy has done anything wrong.

I just think people should realize that when things happen, the body tends to have predictable autonomic responses, and trembling from an overload of adrenaline is one of them.

insomni
March 14, 2012, 04:16 AM
They can die in terror cowered in their bedrooms. Wether I have a Louisville Slugger, or an 870 with slugs, someone is going down if they break into my house...


Also I think its funny that anti-gun types dont consider a baseball bat a deadly weapon.

Stevie-Ray
March 14, 2012, 05:55 PM
I had been reading a couple of discussions here. One was about stashing firearms in more than one location. The other was about carrying at home. At first thought, the latter idea seemed preposterousIt seems that those of us that have been carrying at home all along, are being called paranoid by fewer and fewer each year.;)

Onward Allusion
March 14, 2012, 06:02 PM
^^^
Serious. I've been noticing that too.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 15, 2012, 10:03 AM
I have Louisville slugger. I remember an NTI where someone charged me with a bat in a scenario. Three shots from a pocket draw (fast than I thought I could) - one in each hand (the bat was in front of his chest) - one right in center mass.

This is getting silly. Put a reasonable gun on you if you are worried about instant response. Cover and concealment and shoot if it makes sense. If you have time, get to the safe room with the others and get ready, trigger the alarms, call the law. Order a pizza - whatever.

Or charge an invasion with a mug, yelling dirty words.

3kgt2nv
March 16, 2012, 12:54 PM
the saying of locking the door is kind of silly. i can punch thru sheetrock to reach in and unlock the door just as easy as i could kick the door open.

its because everyone always stress a strong door that made me put stainless steel sheet metal in the walls surrounding the door so that it would provide extra security.

MarkDozier
March 18, 2012, 01:08 AM
If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.

Wrongo Donko
My house is easy to clear under any situation.Everyone except me seems to have cavernous homes. And they all seem to be hard to clear.
Of course in my case my dogs make it easy to locate intruders. The screams of agony from the BG helps find them.

OldMarksman
March 18, 2012, 07:41 AM
My house is easy to clear under any situation.Is there something unusual about your house that makes it difficult for one or more invaders to shoot you?

C0untZer0
March 18, 2012, 08:38 AM
I wouldn't mistake having dogs who will track down and attack an intruder for having a structure that is inherently easy to "clear".

The adavantage that you have in taking up a well thought out defensive position (not the simplistic 'lock the door and dial 911'), is precisely the advantage you give up when you go on the move.

Having legitimate gaurd dogs changes the scenario. I say legitimate because there was the case earlier this year in Texas where a family had a mastiff, and that dog proved to be completely useless when burglars broke into the home:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478480&highlight=son

The ABC report doesn't address this, and I agree with those who say that their report by it's nature could not be comprehensive and cover every senario. But the de facto tactic of "lock the door dial 911" leaves your animal out there to fend for itself.

I know dogs can be a very versatile and highly effecive part of home defense. I guess there could be scenarios where your dog was with you and didn't engage the invaders when they first entered - like if the dog was in the bedroom with a closed door.

I don't think I could just unleashe a dog and then let it fend for itself against the against the bad guys, especially if it was being attacked.

MLeake
March 18, 2012, 10:14 AM
Having had at least some formal training in clearing a building, I'd prefer not to try the real thing if I could find a good defensive position. The only way I'd do it is if I had family or friends in other parts of the house.

The old rule of thumb for attacking a defended position was that the attackers needed at least a 3:1 numerical advantage. There's a reason for that.

Some folks seem to think machismo will replace or overcome good tactics. I think they are in for a nasty surprise.

Onward Allusion
March 18, 2012, 01:39 PM
MarkDozier

Quote:
If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.


Wrongo Donko
My house is easy to clear under any situation.Everyone except me seems to have cavernous homes. And they all seem to be hard to clear.
Of course in my case my dogs make it easy to locate intruders. The screams of agony from the BG helps find them.

Have you ever cleared a house or building in real life or in formal training?

graysmoke
March 18, 2012, 03:14 PM
Don't believe any of these network executives. They own firearms. They just don't admit it.

sm
March 18, 2012, 03:22 PM
Consider the source. Last I heard ABC was part of MSM, which does not carry a lot of weight with me personally.

Tactics and Training or Strategy & Tactics to me is training the brain first and then getting skill sets to use whatever tool sets are afforded them. The reality is we have members, whether here in the USA, or abroad whom are denied "rights"

So for me, another thing is knowing the laws of one's jurisdiction. Yes, I for decades have recommended one actually go to the Courtroom to actually see what goes on. Too many folks here in the USA think a "jury of one's peers" means a dozen folks just like them. It ain't so.
One also learns what crimes are done, how played out and how "that" jurisdiction actually deals with cases.
Gets back to training the brain, and educating the brain if you will...

I mean it is nice to know how your jurisdiction "interprets" and "defines" the law.

Now I gots my druthers as to how the COTUS is interpreted and what it means for me, still the reality is, not everyone, nor every place feels the same as I. So I best know, what is what.

Maybe I am old school, or just getting old, still preventive measures to avoid situations is best. Evade if need be is another one. Then again if'n I gots to stop a threat I am best off knowing what is "legal" and staying within the legal areas.
Using of course mindset, skill sets and tool sets I have trained not only my brain, also my physical being with.

Just me, probably wrong, still I run with this tactic and training as come up with.

Steve

miztic
March 20, 2012, 01:33 PM
Something I didn't see in this thread that needs to be said I think, the police are under no obligation to protect you, so calling 911 may get any BGs that are running away from your house caught, I wouldn't count on anything like that to keep my family, myself and my stuff safe.

C0untZer0
March 21, 2012, 12:51 AM
I would venture to say that 95% of the people who have called 911 had no idea how long it would take the police to arrive before they actually experienced it.

There is the story of the boy in Texas - whose mom put him in the closet while a group of robbers were breaking into their home, and he repeatedly dialed 911 and kept getting disconnected.

I don't know what the average response time in Chicago is but in Detroit it is abysmal.

I once called 911 at 11:30 at night... I was driving behind a navy blue Camero in the pouring rain.. and the woman was driving with no lights - no headlights, no running lights, no brake lights, nothing, and she was basically invisible. I was waiting for her to kill someone. I actually called ahead to the next town we were going to be traveling through in 10 minutes. We cruised right through that town, and no police responded. I called the next town with a 15 minute lead time, and the next. I called the next three townships and the county Sheriff... 45 minutes of driving with no squad car ever responding. She finally pulled into a subdivision and I thought she'd probably gotten home... and I hoped she was done driving for the night.

I think ABC's general advice in this piece is really cruddy advice and their assumptions about how quickly police respond is another one of those dangerous assumptions.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 21, 2012, 10:13 AM
Can we have a reality check?

If you take up a safe position and call the law:

1. Stay on the phone. It documents your actions (well, if you are Joe Horn or Zimmerman - that may not be good for you) but I assume most members here aren't bloodlusted or shouldn't be.

2. No matter what time it takes, help will start to role - better get it started early.

No one suggests you just call the police and cower. So get off that schtick, would y'all?

Yes, you are a mighty warrior as compared to ABC - yawn.

rha600
March 21, 2012, 10:22 AM
that would be my plan unless I HAD to go through the house.

My master bedroom is set up to where I could have the wife go in the closet with the phone calling 911 and I can be on the opposite side of the bed with the sites on the door.

We also leave a couple of keys lights on in the house, and where the bedroom is positioned, anyone coming to or by that door will be well illuminated. not that I don't have a flashlight in the nightstand with the weapon but I really shouldn't need it.