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CaptainObvious
March 6, 2012, 08:29 AM
In the most ideal situation with the most ideal shooter, it will take 1.5 seconds or less to go from draw to fire. Keep in mind, that figure was obtained on a controlled range with a highly trained and considerably experienced youthful shooter. The firearm was in an open carry specially designed holster the shooter had trained on previously.

We all know that most self defense situations are anything but ideal and not all of us spend the entire day practicing with a shot timer. Some of us here have probably never gone up against a shot timer at all. Therefore, more likely it will take anywhere from 2-3 seconds to go from draw to fire.

Keep in mind the following. The average human being can sprint over the area of a football field or 100 meters at about 17 mph. Olympic athletes can get up to over 25 mph. Lets say a human was sprinting at 15 mph. That is 22 feet per second. Therefore, even with the most ideal shooter under the most ideal conditions, at least 33 feet is needed for just one shot to be squeezed off and that shot may not even hit the target.

The distance an object travels from a freefall drop in 1 second is about 15 feet. So in 1.5 seconds, the object will have fallen about 22.5 feet.

Just some food for thought this morning. Feel free to discuss.

kraigwy
March 6, 2012, 09:11 AM
I think you're 1.5 seconds is a bit off. Even older dudes like me can get well under that number. Where I fall down time wise in the reloading department.

It doesn't take much practice to get that first shot, from the draw, to .5 seconds. I do shoot a lot of Steel, ICORE, USPSA type matches and its not uncommon to get the first shot off in .5 seconds.

Take into account the club I shoot at, the guys, thought great people are no way professionals, some young, some old like me. Even the older dudes are closer to .5 then 1.5.

I don't know, so I'll take your 17 MPH mark for a 100 yard sprint. That would be about 25 ft per second. Or if a guy is sprinting, he would cover 12.5 seconds in that .5 seconds.

However, you are assuming the guy started the sprint and was up to full (17 MPH/25 FPS) when you start to draw. You forgot the acceleration factor. It takes time to get to that 17 MPH.

Also, when I'm talking .5 seconds in competition, that normally takes into account that in competition, the gun is drawn, brought up to a sighted 2 handed hold, and aimed at a 8 - 12 plate placed at an avg. of 30 feet.

In the case where the bandit starts his sprint, you draw and shoot, and he gets within 12.5 feet, you don't take or need a two handed sighted shot.

Another thing, I never heard of a SD situation which started with the bandit instigating the incident by making a sprint toward the victim.

Where the victim has the advantage is in Surprise. Bandits don't expect victims to carry and resist. If they thought their victim was armed, they would choose some one else. It takes time for the bandit to register the fact his victim is responding before he starts (if he does) his dash toward the victom........that would cover your .5 to 1.5 draw time.

Anyway, all this math and physics can be thrown out the window with a little bit of practice. Draw and shoot at 7 yards using a shot timer.

Shot timers are rather cheap, it reveal a lot.

icedog88
March 6, 2012, 09:53 AM
IIRC, failure to stop drills with the M9 in Security Forces training (two to chest, one to head),7 yards from a flap holster, 1.3 secs, would get you a marksman badge, not even sharpshooter.

PawPaw
March 6, 2012, 10:02 AM
We routinely qualify with two shots in two seconds as part of our annual qualification. Every law enforcement officer in Louisiana uses the same course of fire. Gunnies or non-gunnies, we all qualify with the same course and that 2-shot, 2-second scenario is easily done by everyone on the line. When I'm on my game, I can do it in under a second.

We're taught that it takes 2 seconds to cover 21 feet, from a standing start in a sprint. That's our reaction zone and if caught in that zone, the second shot will be at bad-breath distance.

KC Rob
March 6, 2012, 10:14 AM
1.5 seconds is an eternity. When I took the Defensive Handgun course at Front Sight as a relatively inexperienced self defense shooter (I had shot a lot, never trained for SD), we were told we would have to place 2 shots in the thoracic cavity and one in the ocular cavity from the holster from 7 yards in 1.5 seconds or less to pass the course. My jaw dropped, I thought I was going to fail for sure, but as the class progressed and my technique improved it became quite simple to do.

The targets were on motorized swivel stands, the instructors would set the time and then you would face the target, it would swivel to face you (no warning or buzzer), you would draw and fire, and it would swivel back when the time elapsed. At first, I struggled to get off my shots, even with 3 or 4 seconds sometimes, even shooting the wooden frame edge of the targets in desperation as it swiveled away from me a couple times, but soon it became second nature.

In fact, when I took my "final" to pass the course, I drew, fired my 3 shots, went to the low ready and began my after action drills, and noticed that the target had failed to swivel back. I remember thinking "Something is wrong with the target, I am going to have to do this over". Then, the target turned away, the instructor clapped me on the back and said good job, and I realized that I had slowed everything down in my brain so far that it seemed like 10+ seconds had passed, when in fact it had only been the allotted 1.5.

Granted, this is on a controlled range and does not reflect an actual self defense situation, but it is interesting to see how much you can actually do in such a short amount of time.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 6, 2012, 11:00 AM
A lot of things can effect draw time - retention holster, cover garment, etc. However, I'd say that 1.5 seconds is plenty of time for most people who spend time on that.

Having said that, the OODA loop is Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Typically the time to draw only measure the "A" part of that loop, and it is one of the smallest time increments in the loop. If you are really concerned about being faster and more efficient, the place to concentrate your efforts is on the OOD part of the loop. If I can cycle through that part of the loop 2 seconds faster, I've created enough time that even a 2 second draw leaves me a half-second ahead of the next Jelly Bryce.

BlueTrain
March 6, 2012, 11:23 AM
There are some remarkable people on this forum when it comes to beating the clock but I'm not one of them. There's just no way I can do any of those things anymore at my age, not that I ever could. Oh, I used to practice a lot and a K-frame revolver (heavy barrel) with an open top unconcealed holster was the best gun I ever had for the purpose. An N-frame, especially with a longer barrel, was hopeless. I had several single actions over the years but I never attempted any fast draw with them. When it came to single action autos, however, I decided I was all fingers when it came to that thumb safety and finally gave up on them. All I have left are two DA/SA autos and I only practice from concealment.

The old-timers just wouldn't cut it these days, would they?

Navy joe
March 6, 2012, 11:46 AM
I think people are optimistic on here. .5 second may be a consistent reality if your name starts with R and ends with Leatham. Under 1.5 on a shot timer to first aimed shot is adequate for most IPSC. Running around with a lot of good IDPA shooters we'd see only 2-3 sub second first shots on a no cover garment standards course. I know I can get .8 if tuned in. Average concealment draw to first shot is about 2.2 seconds from watching a lot of IDPA shooters.

Frank Ettin
March 6, 2012, 11:51 AM
In the most ideal situation with the most ideal shooter, it will take 1.5 seconds or less to go from draw to fire. Keep in mind, that figure was obtained on a controlled range with a highly trained and considerably experienced youthful shooter. The firearm was in an open carry specially designed holster the shooter had trained on previously...Not exactly. At Gunsite, par for two of the "School Drills" is 1.5 seconds for one round to the head at three yards, and 1.5 seconds for two rounds to the center of mass at seven yards, beginning with a holstered gun (but without a covering garment). Turning targets are used, so the time limit is strictly enforced and the cue to engage is visual.

When I took the Intermediate Handgun (350) class last year, we all managed to pass the School Drills, and in the 350 class, the drill includes a step to the right or left while presenting. I guess since this was an "intermediate" class, we could all be called "well trained", but we weren't using any special holsters or other equipment -- just the guns and rigs were were wearing outside in the real world before and after class.

And not one of us could have been called "youthful" by any stretch of the imagination.

Fairshake
March 6, 2012, 12:44 PM
I was a POST Firearms Instructor for many years while working in the
Baton Rouge , La. area.
I worked for seven years as a narcotics agent and can say first hand that if you are attacked and not full of first rate training you will fail to react fast enough in a real life situation.
I saw LEO's with years of service fail to draw their guns when fired upon. They froze in position with the deer in the headlights look.
The very first thing that goes through your mind is, that person can't be attacking me.
Only those with extensive training will react. I was standing to the rear of two uniform officers who had a driver stopped and standing beside the drivers side door.
I was watching his hands and his right hand went into his right front pocket and I drew and had my gun pointed to his cranium. He stopped his action and I retrieved a 32 automatic ready to fire from his pocket.
The two officers were standing in complete disbelief and told me that they had never even seen the mans hands moving.
They thanked me so many times that I had to finally get in my car and drive away.
I have also see those who may punch the center out of a B27 only to miss from 10 feet on the first shot when fired at.
The real thing can't be judged until you have first hand knowledge of what goes on.
You can only prepare and be ready and remember that this is not Gunsmoke. If you feel a threat is possible then that gun drawn and down to your side is a good starting position.

Hansam
March 6, 2012, 05:00 PM
I read this this morning and I went to the range to test this out. With just a basic stopwatch and my wife telling me to draw I timed out at 1.1 seconds to draw and put two to the center of mass - one to the head-ish (I missed the head area by .5" too high).

This was from a defensive position with both hands up and in front of me. My gun was my 1911 holstered in an IWB holster at 4 o'clock and beneath a sweatshirt and my coat which was not unzipped.

I don't believe 1.5 seconds to draw and shoot is unreasonable - in fact it feels a bit slow if you've got any decent practice behind you.

g.willikers
March 6, 2012, 05:49 PM
Add talking to the scenario and the times increase quite a lot.
Try it.
If using a timer, set it for a random start, with enough delay to allow you plenty of time to have a conversation.
Continue talking until the timer buzzes, then do the drill.
It will be surprising how much longer it takes to stop talking and act.

Dave Anderson
March 6, 2012, 05:52 PM
Comparing draw times is useless without defining all the terms; how the pistol is carried, whether concealed or unconcealed, distance to target, size of target, acceptable accuracy standard, what measuring system is used.

Turning targets can't be compared directly to electronic shot times. A 1.5 second exposure means the target is fully faced to the shooter for 1.5 seconds. However it takes time for the target to turn, around 0.2 - 0.3 seconds depending on the system, and the shooter reacts and begins the draw as the target is facing. 1.5 seconds with turning targets is equivalent to about 1.7 - 1.8 seconds with a shot timer.

If people would like some real numbers for comparison, here's an example: in 1995 I was shooting at the range with Rob Leatham, winner of multiple national and world titles, at a time when he was about at the peak of his ability. As one training exercise he did six consecutive draws on an IPSC target at seven yards.

Pistol was a single-stack 1911 5" gun (stock division) with iron sights, holster an off-the-shelf Safariland paddle holster, concealable but with no covering garment. He had all A-zone hits with each draw in the range of a bit over 0.9 of a second.

The superstars can go faster when just fooling around in practice. I've seen times in the 0.6 range when guys are having fun and not too concerned about missing. But not in a match where misses can sink you. Incidentally I've also seen Rob mow down a row of Pepper popper targets at 50 yards, shooting from the hip. He wouldn't do that in a match either.

Try that one: concealable holster, no covering garment, stock/production gun, IPSC target, seven yards (measured, not paced off), electronic shot timer. Record the time for A-zone hits. Add 0.3 seconds for B/C hits, 0.6 for D hits, 1 second for misses. Do ten consecutive draws and count every one.

An honest average of under 1.5 seconds is pretty good. No one cares what you did once. What matters is what you can do on demand, every time.

lawnboy
March 6, 2012, 06:01 PM
Keep in mind the following. The average human being can sprint over the area of a football field or 100 meters at about 17 mph. Olympic athletes can get up to over 25 mph. Lets say a human was sprinting at 15 mph. That is 22 feet per second. Therefore, even with the most ideal shooter under the most ideal conditions, at least 33 feet is needed for just one shot to be squeezed off and that shot may not even hit the target.

Assuming your math is right, if he's up to full speed then yes, he can cover 22 feet in a second. But if he's standing over yonder 22 feet away I'll have longer, due to the fact he'll take a while to get up to top speed.

If I'm ever attacked by an NFL cornerback or Usain Bolt I'll let you know how it goes. Assuming I win.

Frank Ettin
March 6, 2012, 07:54 PM
We know from Tueller's work that the average person can cover 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. We tested this in a number of classes and confirmed that.pretty wide range of people can cover that distance in between 1.25 and 1.75 seconds.

Deaf Smith
March 6, 2012, 10:30 PM
Capitan,

If you shoot from the hip you can get well under 1.5 seconds. And for that sprinting guy, well real social altercations tend to have lots of indicators something is going down BEFORE it goes down. If one picks up on those signals, or tells, they can start their draw just as that 'sprinter' starts to attempt to sprint.

The 21 ft rule is actually an estimation, a approximation. Much depends on how well the defense is attuned to the attack, skill, speed, reflexes, and a host of other things as well as those of the attacker.

Long time ago a gent name John W. Hardin was accosted by three Texas State police somewhere near Longview Texas. The police asked for his guns. He gave them the contents of them. I have no doubt those police had their guns out. Wes beat them and they had the drop on him.

Like I said, there are alot of factors not just some stop watch estimation.

Deaf

Mello2u
March 7, 2012, 01:28 AM
For those who want to time their shooting, don't have a shot timer or want spend money to buy one, and have an iPhone; there is a free application you can download to your phone.

Shot Timer by Surefire

SG29736
March 7, 2012, 02:16 AM
"Also, when I'm talking .5 seconds in competition, that normally takes into account that in competition, the gun is drawn, brought up to a sighted 2 handed hold, and aimed at a 8 - 12 plate placed at an avg. of 30 feet."

In competition that would also include reaction time from the buzzer. That leaves not much more than .3 seconds to do all of the above. That's a lot to accomplish in .5 seconds. As someone else mentioned, it's one thing to do something 1 time out of 10 attempts as opposed to what a person can do the majority of the time. I know that you are a very experienced shooter, but I think the .5 seconds is pretty optomistic. Mark

jhenry
March 7, 2012, 08:10 AM
We had a fairly recent thread concerning rates of fire. I remember posting about when we transitioned to Glocks. I was able to draw from concealment and place 5 shots on a B27 target with a Glock 23 in 1.53 seconds. The guy that beat me did it in 1.47 seconds. I really felt as if I could have done better but the trainers did not allow a redo on that part. I really wanted to beat that guy. For a recent requalification I had to travel to another zone due to a scheduling conflict. The guy was there so I made sure to get on line next to him and beat him there instead. Petty perhaps, but I felt better.

CaptainObvious
March 7, 2012, 08:41 AM
Im kind of curious how some of these times were achieved. How exactly are you setup? Do you have the hand on the pistol itself before the shot timer goes off, to your sides or arms crossed? Are you using a purpose made shot timer or just a stopwatch or some other solution? Tell me a little bit more because maybe Im doing something wrong.

If you can do a draw and fire in .5 seconds then by all means post up a picture of the shot timer or do it for us on Youtube. I want to know where I am going wrong.

Skans
March 7, 2012, 09:00 AM
My draw time depends on whether I'm sitting or standing. From a standing position, I can draw in about 1 second - on average. From a sitting position it will be about 4 seconds, because I pocket carry. Either I must stand up or wriggle it out of my pocket.

First, the average human can't sprint 100 yards at 17 or even 15 mph. Maybe 12-13mph.

Second, potential assailants aren't likely to sprint at you - that would be too easy to defend against and that kind of thing would draw too much attention. They will likely distract you, or target those who are distracted.

Third, if you ever have to use your gun, you are not necessarily going to have to "fast-draw" to ward off an unsuspecting attack. You will probably get a "hinkey" feeling about something or someone and get your hand on your gun while still concealed. For example, if I have to pull into a gas station late at night to pump gas (which happens frequently), I'll have one hand on the pump and my other hand on my gun in my pocket. I'll also have my cell phone nearby and will be constantly looking around. Another "trick" I use in this situation is I always clean my windows & check my tires - lets me quickly move around my car if someone approaches me - I don't just sit there looking to talk to strangers.

kraigwy
March 7, 2012, 10:09 AM
Im kind of curious how some of these times were achieved.

When I talk about the .5 second area I'm talking about drawing my 642 from my pocket and getting the first shot off.

I use a shot timer, and start with my hand in my pocket pretty much gripping the revolver. BUT, that's how I walk around, with my hands in my pocket.

In another topic I posted some random pictures of me standing around, wearing my "air force gloves".

When I shoot competition, Steel Challenge, ICORE, USPSA, etc, I start from the surrender position. But to be honest, in competition I really don't know the time of the first shot because I haven't checked. The time is based on the time to complete the stage. I'll have to work on that, check it out.

Sure, like anything else it takes practice. I have blue guns (plastic training non guns), a J Frame, a K Frame (ICORE revolver) and a Beretta, (the last two is what I normally shoot in competition) and I do set around practicing my draw, or in the case of the J Frame, getting it out of my pocket in weird positions, setting on the couch, at the table, in the truck, or just walking around.

I'm old (64) if I can do it anyone can. I will confess in competition, I don't do that well but its the "reloading" the pistol or revolver that gets me. I do have to work on that part. I really like revolvers and I simple can't compete in many of those matches with a "6" shot revolver against a 14-18 round magazine.............but its what I like to shoot, and I shoot for fun.

It's like the Tourist asking the Cab Driver "How do you get to Carnegie Hall"...."Practice man, practice".

MLeake
March 7, 2012, 10:14 AM
CaptainObvious, I can't tell you where you are going wrong. I can tell you that at my previous IDPA club, most of us could do the following:

1) face 180 away from the targets;
2) at the buzzer, turn and draw (only bring the muzzle up when facing the targets) IE About Face and draw;
3) shoot double taps to center mass on three targets

And the typical times were 3-4 seconds, including the turn, the draw, and the three double-taps.

If it takes 1.5 seconds for a prepared shooter to draw and double tap a target he is already facing, something is off.

MikeRussell
March 7, 2012, 10:51 AM
Just to give perspective, I'm not a pro shooter, but I dabble in USPSA Production Division. From a start position of facing away from the targets, hands by head, turn, draw, shoot 3 targets (modified El Preaidente with a no shoot overlap) with double taps freestyle, reload, shoot same 3 targets with double taps strong hand only, I can get it done in just under 6 seconds. That's drawing from a Bladetech DOH holster. I'm not the fastest (I'm working on it though), but that shows you what the average guy can do.

CaptainObvious
March 7, 2012, 11:45 AM
Let me clarify. This is a video demonstrating exactly what I consider a good draw and fire.

http://youtu.be/BKcHsLUhNTQ?t=5m20s

#1. Timing is done with a reputable purpose-made shot timer. The shot-timer is set to a random interval.

#2. Firearm is holstered open carry.

#3. A target is set a reasonable distance away. We could debate the distance and size of the target.

#4. You have to hit the target for it to count.

#5. Hands are not on the holstered firearm. Lets say to your sides.

This guy made it in about 1.5 seconds. So, using this method, how can you get it down to under 1 second?

sigcurious
March 7, 2012, 12:28 PM
I don't get to practice from a holster, so FWIW. In your scenario, which as I understand it is an attacker rushing from ~30ft. The video is not exactly a good comparison, hitting a target at a distance would be different from hitting someone who is now standing right in front of you.

IMO a better comparison would be setting a target at maybe a 1-3 yards as that would approximate the distance of the rushing attacker after reacting and drawing. I'm pretty sure most of the guys and gals here who get to practice this kind of stuff would make good hits at that range under the same constraints. I'd also guess aimed fire might go out the door in favor of point shooting in the scenario and at a much shorter range than ~30ft.

kraigwy
March 7, 2012, 01:04 PM
CaptainObvious

I'd recommend you take in and observe a Steel Challenge, or other action pistol match. I think you'd be supprised.

The video you showed was simular to a steel match, normaly you shoot five 8-12 inch plates, the 5th being a stop plate, from the holster and surrender position. Plates are normally 30 feet.

That's much different then drawing and hitting a bandit target at 3 yards or so.

Nanuk
March 7, 2012, 10:18 PM
To draw and fire an aimed shot at 30 feet in 1.5 seconds is not bad. Like kraig indicates, where draw speed actually counts is up close and personal. If it comes to that you have already failed and are trying to play catch up with an aggressor. Part of our qualification (USBP) was 3 shots in 2 seconds at 3 yards. From my level 3 retention holster I routinely did it at 1 second or less.

shooter_john
March 9, 2012, 12:00 AM
1.5 sec is a LONG TIME. My fastest draw and fire (FBI "Q" head shot at 3 yards) is 0.86 from t-shirt concealment out of an open top kydex holster. That was draw, press out, and fire at near full extention. And I wouldn't consider myself a super fast "quickdraw" guy.

Heck, Dave Sevigny holds the record on the Pistol-Training.com FAST drill with 2 head shots (3x5 box), a reload, and 4 shots into a 8" circle at 7 yards in 3.64 seconds. He could probably draw and dump a magazine in 1.5 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

Another one... Todd Green from concealment on a reduced size target at 20 yards in 1.45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaCIsjs2Wlc&feature=related

Granted, these are world class shooters, but I don't consider to be a 1.5 hit on target anywhere within 10 yards to be "fast".

Japle
March 9, 2012, 05:29 PM
In Steel Challenge matches, I often see shooters on the “Smoke & Hope” stage draw and miss the 1st target (18X24” at 9 yds) in under a second. The shooters who get hits are usually running around 1 – 1.5 seconds. There are faster shooters, but they’re usually shooting “Open” guns from competition holsters. The ones shooting in USPSA or IDPA classes are doing well to beat 1.5 sec. I’m not talking about the local champs, I’m talking about the above-average, serious amateur.

On the stages where the 1st target is smaller and further away, times increase dramatically. Add in having to draw from a concealment holster during a surprise attack, and all bets are off.

MLeake
March 10, 2012, 05:27 AM
So here's another chance to plug the concept of learning some basic hand to hand skills, specifically skills at evading and/or redirecting a physical attack, in order to gain space and time to draw and shoot.

The difference between a trained person and the typical person is that if one charges a well-trained person, the well-trained person should get out of the way virtually as a matter of conditioned reflex.

Ryder
March 10, 2012, 05:44 AM
In a real situation you can start the timer with my hand already on the grip. I don't walk around in condition white and there's no such thing as a fair fight to the death... Don't blink or you'll miss it.

Murdock
March 10, 2012, 06:18 AM
I am 62. Standing at 5 yards on snow and ice, hands at my sides and wearing a 1911 OWB under an unzipped heavy winter coat, I can get two aimed A-zones in 1.6 seconds using a random delay on my timer.

My thought is that situational awareness is of somewhat more value to me than speed.

Cooper wrote that no draw is as fast as the one that's unexpected, so I use Gomer Pyle as my role model: "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" I've only had to draw a concealed firearm once for real. They were surprised.

Freakdaddy
March 10, 2012, 07:49 AM
This is a really great training tool to use to time yourself on draw, presentation and dry fire at home utilizing your computer monitor. As always, make sure your gun is unloaded and cleared before doing this unless you just enjoy buying monitors. I use the small targets as they pop up in random areas so you don't get conditioned to just aiming for the center. The various targets are on the right side and they have a variety of delay and visibility options to choose from.

http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/pages/DryfireDrills

Nanuk
March 10, 2012, 10:33 PM
Jim Zumbelina IPSC shooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMFM8SeW51E

JohnKSa
March 12, 2012, 12:13 AM
On Shooting USA's Impossible Shots, Jerry Miculek drew from the buzzer, transitioned his revolver from his strong to his weak hand and fired two shots left-handed on a silhouette target. Elapsed time from the buzzer to the second shot was 0.98 seconds.

jibberjabber
March 19, 2012, 10:54 PM
Rapid motor skills can be obtained. With training, you can perform neat tricks.

Just make sure that in real life you pick the correct scenario for your skill. So if a baddy gets the drop on you because you're holding a greasy Burger King food tray contemplating a Mr. Pibb, kindly ask him for a duel where your fast draw is sure to bring you victory!

garryc
March 20, 2012, 07:53 AM
Here's the thing, my fat butt can cross a substantial distance and knock someone out before they can get to and use their CCW weapon. That is why it is so critical for you to understand the dynamics of a use of force situation. Most people stand there flat footed drawing their weapon, simply a deer in the headlights.

You have to be able to move, get out of his line of power. Get something between you that he has to go around. The ability to use physical force, to keep your area clear, to use his force against him is absolutely critical.

Then there is nothing more than eye contact. I don't know how many times I've had inmates slip up on me, and I'm thinking to do no good, only to back down when I looked at them. Criminals can do blitz attacks, but mostly they are sneaky. Simply knowing that they have lost the element of surprise is enough to deter them. Being lost in your thoughts, or walking around looking at the ground is like a sheep feeding on grass.

But, watch the level of eye contact as a simple look taken too long can be interpenetrated as a challenge.

orthosophy
March 21, 2012, 01:44 PM
I wanted to wait until I got to the range to post anything here.

I can draw from concealment and fire in about a second. The .357 is a tad faster, the .45 slower. Even better, I did some drills I hadn't done for a few year, and did a sidestep while I was drawing, and that worked out well. I put the first shot from both exactly where I wanted them consistently.

To me, you only need to look at 10 yard splits to understand this thread. If a pro football player can do a 1.5 sec split (stop to first 10 yards of a 40) it is not unreasonable in my mind to think that you could see someone on the street capable of that or something close to it. I would hope that it wouldn't ever get that close.

dawg23
March 29, 2012, 12:22 PM
From Captain Obvious: This guy made it in about 1.5 seconds. So, using this method, how can you get it down to under 1 second?

Practice. With a timer.

One of the secrets to learning something is knowing that it can be done. The US guarded the secret of the atomic bomb in WW ll -- al long as our enemies thought it was impossible, their efforts to create one were less intense.

The fellow in your example video is slow by today's competition standards. Pick better examples, and try to emulate them.

pax
March 29, 2012, 12:46 PM
Dave Anderson ~

Good post!

pax

bds32
March 31, 2012, 09:58 AM
I think a 1.5 second draw is a minimum standard from an open carry with retention device (thumb snap or other) at 7 yards with good torso hit. The mechanics involve raising the pistol to eye level and actually seeing the front sight before squeezing. From my experience it seems that the average trained persons (LEO for example) can get between the 1 second and 1.5 second mark with practice. Something right around one second following the same mechanics is what I would call above average. One half to three quarters of second is very fast.

kraigwy
March 31, 2012, 12:20 PM
Just a tidbit about fast draws.

Glenn Ford, the actor is considered one of the fastest in Hollywood.

On the average he draws and fires at 4/10ths of a second.

All it takes is a bit of practice.

MikeRussell
March 31, 2012, 12:48 PM
Just a tidbit about fast draws.

Glenn Ford, the actor is considered one of the fastest in Hollywood.

On the average he draws and fires at 4/10ths of a second.

All it takes is a bit of practice.

Maybe shooting from the hip without aiming.

TGO (Rob Leatham) draws from a Production division legal holster, shooting A zone on a 20yrd target in just over 1.1sec with a XDm 5.25 in 9mm. Just watched a practice drill vid with him, he said he was pushing it some but didn't want to sacrifice hitting A zone on the far target.

Fishing_Cabin
March 31, 2012, 01:01 PM
In reference to the 1.5 seconds, draw and fire. I think you are giving a bit more time then needed. In that, both in training and qualification, we are required to fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds from locked holster (all levels of retention engaged) and there is still what seems like, at least to me, 1 second left after the 2 rounds are fired. Im not a fast shot either, but with training, practice, proper motivation (losing my job if I dont qualify) it is not that big of an issue.

NRAhab
March 31, 2012, 03:57 PM
I would love to see a video with a shot timer of some of these alleged 0.50 second draws.

Japle
March 31, 2012, 06:29 PM
I would love to see a video with a shot timer of some of these alleged 0.50 second draws.
Me too.

I was practicing for the Steel Challenge Nationals a few days ago with my Ruger 22/45. On the Smoke and Hope stage, I was getting first round hits in 0.4 to 0.45 sec. Keep in mind that’s with a .22 from the low-ready position on an 18X24 inch target about 9 yds away. Dave Sevigny, who ought to know what he’s talking about, thought that was pretty damn quick.

There are lots of tales of guys getting 1st round hits in under a second from concealment. Talk’s cheap. Let’s see the videos with timers running.

FireForged
March 31, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am not inclined to believe that even 10% of armed confrontations boil down to speed of draw determining the victor. That being said, I see nothing wrong with someone practicing...thats always a good thing. Me- personally, I do not worry about time clocks or what the badguys athletic abilities might be. I focus on my abilities and what I am going to do to stop a threat. I have no idea how fast I can draw. I have never drawn a weapon as fast at humanly possible and dont really care. I know that I can draw in a clean and deliberate manner and reholster in the same fashion. If I had to guess, my draw speed is as fast as I feel is responsible and with me, its about 90% of what I could probably do. I respect everyones opinion and I realize that mine is in the minority (as usual). :)

Frank Ettin
March 31, 2012, 08:00 PM
...I am not inclined to believe that even 10% of armed confrontations boil down to speed of draw determining the victor....I focus on my abilities and what I am going to do to stop a threat. I have no idea how fast I can draw. I have never drawn a weapon as fast at humanly possible and dont really care. I know that I can draw in a clean and deliberate manner and reholster in the same fashion... The point of a fast draw is not speed for its own sake. It's simply that if you do need your gun, you have no way to know in advance how much time you'll have in which to put it to use.

When it comes down to it, it's really not a question of quick draw or fast draw. It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

So how much time will we have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. We might have lots of time, or we might have very little. We simply can't know in advance.

If we can't get done what we need to do in the time circumstances allow us, we will not be happy with the outcome. Good training and diligent practice can help reduce the time we need to be able to effectively do what we need to be able to do. And since I can't know how much time I'll have, I'd rather not give up time if I can avoid it.

Double Naught Spy
April 1, 2012, 04:11 AM
Keep in mind the following. The average human being can sprint over the area of a football field or 100 meters at about 17 mph.

Not exactly. I don't believe anyone runs the area of a football field at 17 mph, but may run its length.

So 17 mph =24.93 fps

When you talkg about a person running the length of a football field, or about 100 meters, what length of field are you talking about? You have the main field and then you have the main field with 10 yard end zones added. At 17 mph...
100 yards 12.03 seconds
120 yards 14.44 seconds
100 meters 13.16 seconds

Olympic athletes can get up to over 25 mph. Lets say a human was sprinting at 15 mph. That is 22 feet per second. Therefore, even with the most ideal shooter under the most ideal conditions, at least 33 feet is needed for just one shot to be squeezed off and that shot may not even hit the target.

You have skipped over some critical details. Yes, Olympic sprinters can run over 25 mph, and even faster, but they don't actually reach that speed until after about 60 meters.

Say a human can run 15 mph, or 22 fps and that a human can draw, fire, and hit a target in 1.5 seconds. Contrary to your claim, the attacker will not have to be at least 33 feet away unless you mean to imply that the attacker was already running at full speed when the CCW good guy spotted him. This is almost never the case. The attacker is usually starting from a stationary position.

The magic 1.5 draw, fire, and hit time to which you refer is usually based on shooting targets at distances at several yards and using sights. Shooting a closing target negates the need for skill as the target gets closer and closer, plus requires less movment as the gun doesn't need to be fully drawn and brought up to eye level for sighting shooting.

Also, unless trapped or otherwise back against an obstruction, most people put into a position of having to defend themselves against a charging target will start backing up and/or making a significant lateral move. These measures result in giving the intended victim extra time to respond.

FireForged
April 1, 2012, 10:37 AM
The point of a fast draw is not speed for its own sake. It's simply that if you do need your gun, you have no way to know in advance how much time you'll have in which to put it to use.

A 80year old man can draw a weapon in (2) seconds. My point is that IMO, the speed factor is not likely to be a primary consideration in most gun fights. It will be in "some" cases and it has been in others... My thinking is that if I need a weapon- then i need it. I wont be considering a timed draw time vs- how fast a person can transverse 26 feet. If I am thinking about that then I am probably not in life threatening danger. If a person is inside my reactionary gap and can likely get to me before I get to my weapon, It doesnt mean that I am not going to try anyway. I practice a clean draw in every type of clothing that I wear, speed however- is not a primary consideration. Again, this is just my thought and I share them for friendly debate and not to criticize anyone.

MLeake
April 1, 2012, 10:48 AM
DNS, your math was trucking right along until the free fall thing...

The velocity of the object (in vacuum) would be 32fps after 1 sec, but the distance traveled would be 16ft.

A = 32
V = 32 x T
D = 1/2 V x (T squared)

Generally, though, we aren't attacked by free falling objects in vacuum.

Your other points were good.

People should probably practice defensive movement at least as much as fast draw. There are many more scenarios where defensive movement might be applicable.

NRAhab
April 1, 2012, 07:51 PM
I cannot imagine a situation where I would need to draw my gun in self defense and wish that my draw was slower.

kflo01
April 4, 2012, 12:29 PM
I have a video of myself doing this drill. 2 shots to center mass target was about 7 yards out.

http://youtu.be/UsEtgG-Fx1A

I had a long sleeve pullover sweater on and the gun was in a kydex belt holster. I wore it the way I would have in the real world. Both shots were combat accurate, not 1" groups. Thry were slightly larger than a fist or more like a open hand. I have been shooting for just a year now. when that was taking about 10 months of pistol shooting. So I def think if your doing this drill not from concealment you can get off maybe 3 to 4 shots of.
I watch the Magpul guys do this drill and get of 4 shots in under 2 seconds with the gun covered. Thats were I want to get my skills to. Right now 2 shots in under 2 seconds with the gun concealed I will take that for now and be happy and build on it.

Gerry
April 4, 2012, 12:53 PM
In the IPSC Black Badge Course, you will not pass unless you can draw & fire two rounds at 7 yards in 2 seconds. You must be able to do this 6 times. Seems that even unclassified below class D shooters must past more stringent firearm skills tests than you peace enforcement folks. Funny that.

kraigwy
April 4, 2012, 01:06 PM
Seems that even unclassified below class D shooters must past more stringent firearm skills tests than you peace enforcement folks. Funny that.

No Sir, I think that's sad.

Gerry
April 4, 2012, 01:16 PM
kraigwy, I meant "funny" as in strange.

It's not to say that a all police officers aren't interested in shooting. A tiny minority of officers in our own city are engaged in the sport, and are darn good at it. But seeing many of our police officers shoot the first time as IPSC black badge hopefuls or just in range practice makes me seriously worry about the safety of innocents when these people attempt to shoot the bad guys on the street.

BlueTrain
April 4, 2012, 02:00 PM
Well, how many policemen see their jobs as shooting? Keep in mind that the more who think it is, they more people here will be complaining.

dayman
April 4, 2012, 02:15 PM
Comparing cops to competitive shooters is like comparing me - a guy who often has to lift heavy objects at work - to a competitive strong man.
Or better yet, comparing an average Officer to a trained psychologist - as I'm pretty sure they spend more time calming people down than they do drawing their guns.

Nnobby45
April 4, 2012, 06:07 PM
Let me clarify. This is a video demonstrating exactly what I consider a good draw and fire.


It's a video that doesn't address real world drawing from concealment and hitting a target at close quarters. I try to maintain hitting the target in 1.5 seconds from the timer. It's always tempting to remove my coat, jacket, or vest and improve my time, but that doesn't serve me very well.

After a few draws, my time can be down to 1.2 or 1.3. The longest is about 2 seconds. Admittedly, I should practice more, and might get down to the 1 sec. mark, though probably not on demand.


For CCW practice, I believe one should practice draw and ready as well as draw and fire, and from ready and fire. If all we practice is draw and fire, we might be training ourselves to be robots in a SD situation where drawing is appropriate, but firing isn't.

Gerry
April 4, 2012, 07:06 PM
Well, how many policemen see their jobs as shooting? Keep in mind that the more who think it is, they more people here will be complaining.

There are many facets to being an effective peace officer. Using judgement and tactics in such a way to prevent having to use lethal force in the first place is probably among the most crucial - something that neighborhood watch folk who CCW in Florida are obviously less trained at. I sincerely appreciate the work that the police do and the sacrifices that they choose to make in order to make us safer.

However in light of a few recent deaths due to police missing the bad guy and hitting innocents in this country along with my anecdotal experience of witnessing the skills of officers qualified to carry and use a duty arm, I just wish their standards were a bit higher. I'm not expecting them to be competitive shooters, but I would prefer to see them pass at least the equivalent of a 3 day Black Badge Course for newbie 16 year olds. That includes being able to draw and shoot 2 shots within 2 seconds at 7 yards and hit A's and B's.

BlueTrain
April 5, 2012, 04:57 AM
Think twice, draw once.

Madcap_Magician
April 5, 2012, 11:21 AM
Where the victim has the advantage is in Surprise. Bandits don't expect victims to carry and resist. If they thought their victim was armed, they would choose some one else. It takes time for the bandit to register the fact his victim is responding before he starts (if he does) his dash toward the victom........that would cover your .5 to 1.5 draw time.

That's true, but there's surprise factor on the other side, too. For the most part, victims aren't expecting to be victimized, and even if they've got a hinky feeling, the instant the suspect initiates an attack is still a surprise.

Double Naught Spy
April 5, 2012, 05:33 PM
Madcap,
I believe you will find kraigwy's position state here where he believes that being held at gunpoint means you have the advantage, yet strangely officers and CCW people still have their guns up when dealing with bad people.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474134&highlight=advantage

That's true, but there's surprise factor on the other side, too. For the most part, victims aren't expecting to be victimized, and even if they've got a hinky feeling, the instant the suspect initiates an attack is still a surprise.

I don't know that it is surprise as much as it is an unwillingness for so many people to not want to harm another person. Take the vid here...
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/11/he-was-turning-his-life-around.html

From the sounds of the video, the cop had exited his car and given the commands he was issueing (with others) before Spencer exited his vehicle, the cops would have had their guns draw after the prolonged chase. Yet for various reasons, they did not even begin to fire at the stumbling and spastic Spencer until it was too late. Why they would have hesitated could be for many reasons, but I would be inclined to believe that it had to do with recognition of the situation, realizing that Spencer wasn't attempting to flee on foot but was armed with a knife and running to attack officers. These officers had their guns out, but were not actually prepared to fire.

In other words, for the Tueller drill at least two of the first three steps of the OODA Loop sequence are accomplished before the drill starts. These officers had to go through all 4 again before firing and probably lost considerable time during observation in trying to figure out what the guy was doing (flight v. attack) and then deciding on the course of action.

Observe
Orient
Decide
Act

The attackee is just waiting on the que to be Observed to start to react be. He is already Oriented before the drill starts and has already reached the decision that he would draw and fire when que'd.

In this example, the bad guy covered 22 feet. On one of the forums, I read that the shooter was a trainee, but with considerable combat experience in Afghanistan. Of course, all the other cops present weren't trainees. The video does show some of the shock in the trainee's voice about having shot the guy.

We have run kraigwy's in various ways. The person drawing on the drawn gun is the one that tend's to die the most.

dayman
April 6, 2012, 11:04 PM
I decided to spend about 45 - 15 sets of 3 - rounds practicing, and then time my draw/fire with my EDC BG380.
About 2.5 sec from 4:00 under the shirt to an enormous 8" 3 shot group @ about 12'... not good.
Also, I apparently push my groups about 4" to the left @ 12' when I don't aim.
Lets go ahead and blame the long DA trigger (the reason I chose the gun).

So, that sucked, but it did give me specifics to work on, so I do feel like it gave me some focus. And focus is a good thing.

I think this might be a fun problem to work on.

Claude Clay
April 7, 2012, 01:16 PM
in the real world the very last thing you want to do is fire a bullet into another person. but we practice just that---and doing it fast cause in the real world events may be out of our hands. all that one does to anticipate, being aware, deseculating....whatever...it has all failed and you must use the gun.

so it may be an event which unfolds over time resulting in your having to draw...well, why do you not have a j-frame in your offside vest or coat pocket and it has your hand on it and it is already pointed at the BG's belly, crotch area. draw time is -0-
i am going to carry to defend against those who are conspiring to cause me grave harm-- than i am not playing a game of how fast i can draw, rather how fast i can disengage.

im calm cause concealed im in control, though he does not know it. perhaps than i may let my cover garment open enough to expose my strong side gun to him. his reaction is (up to now has been) to leave. if it is anything otherwise he will discover my weak hand.

in practice and training , from concealment to 1st shot under 2 seconds is competent; getting in under 1.5 seconds is very good. the timer is useful to measure your improvements. and lets you know when you are approaching as good as you get.

but having some throw down money and knowing how fast you can run is useful also.
useful and potentially a lot less expensive than the court costs a fired bullet may incur

Nnobby45
April 8, 2012, 05:55 AM
So, that sucked, but it did give me specifics to work on, so I do feel like it gave me some focus. And focus is a good thing.

I think this might be a fun problem to work on.

Yes, and if the focus is on the front sight, then your sights will be on target when the shot breaks, and your groups will shrink a whole bunch. SEE the F. sight on the target for each rapid fire shot.

What you work on is to shrink your groups to about the size of your hand, which will cut your 8" groups in half. Don't shoot groups that are too small, because that means you are taking more time than you need, or that you need to move the target out a little farther.

CaptainObvious
April 8, 2012, 09:02 PM
One facet of being a police is being able to draw effectively with a Level 2 or Level 3 retention holster. I believe the majority of all LEOs nowadays open carry with a Level 2 holster. If you are a non-LEO open carrier, then you too should use at least a Level 2 retention holster if you are not doing so already.

1.5 seconds to click off one shot and 2 seconds to click off two shots into reasonable sized targets at a certain distance seems like the standard.