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View Full Version : No Blood Trail, Rifle Not Powerful Enough


TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 08:31 AM
I have a Rifle that I love but am starting to think that its not powerfull eneough. Its very accurate, but I shot a Ten Point Buck in the Shoulder with it this year at 60 yards and it didnt shoot all the way through, I found the Buck, and it blew a hole in the deer big eneough to stick my fist in, but did not exit. I shot a doe last season at 96 yards dropped her in her tracks with a chest shot, the bullet didnt exit, and yesterday evening, I shot a large hog with it at about 200 yards, I know I hit it, but no blood trail, and a lost animal.
My Rifle is a Ruger Frontier, with a 16.5" barrel, and I am shooting 150 grain Remington Corelocts. Im frustrated, and want a good blood trail, Should I try a different load, or work up a hand load, or trade it off for a longer barreled gun ? Any suggestions would be apreciated.

I did notice a Large Fireball when I shot late yesterday evening, so I am suspecting that alot of the powder is not being used in the short barrel.

tchunter
February 18, 2012, 08:44 AM
I've had the same problem in the past. The short berrol is costing you velocity but try some different rounds before a new gun. I ended up with hornady superformance sst.

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 08:53 AM
I had thought about trying to develop a handload with faster burning powder, but the problem with Reminton is they wont let you know what kind of powder they use. I have some IMR 4895 but dont know if it would make a difference. Maby a different bullet type, or weight. Whats wierd is I have had complete pass throughs with 30 30s and I know Ive got to be outrunning that cartridge.

Discern
February 18, 2012, 09:22 AM
As previously mentioned, the short barrel is costing you velocity. How long of a barrel is on your 30/30? What bullet weight are you using for the 30/30? Unless you use a chrony, you will not know the velocity of the bullets.

What caliber/cartridge are you shooting in your Ruger Frontier? If it is a .30 cal try a 165 gr bullet. The 165 gr. bullet is designed for deer sized game, and a heavier bullet usually spends more time in the barrel. This may give the powder a little extra burn time.

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 09:26 AM
My 30 30 that I have had complete pass throughs with has a 20 inch barrel, and I was using 170 Grain Remington Hollow Points, Im using 150 Grain Remoington Corelcot in the Ruger the Ruger is a .308 Winchester. I will try a heavier bullet, like the 165 grain you mentioned, If anything that should have more energy.

Discern
February 18, 2012, 09:35 AM
The weight of the 165 gr bullet may give you more penetration than the 150 gr bullet. Some 180's might work, but you need a 180 gr that will still expand reliably on deer with the velocity of the bullet at your shooting distances. I would prefer the 180 gr. bullet for wild boar.

PawPaw
February 18, 2012, 09:49 AM
I believe that rifle is powerful enough. The .308 is powerful enough for any medium game on the continent.

About blood trails. I haven't had a blood trail on the last two deer I've shot. Good bullet performance, good strong kill shots, but no blood trail. I found them both within 50 yards of the impact, and during autopsy I learned the the bullet did what I expected it to do. One was shot with a Nosler Ballistic-Tip, one with a Hornady SST. Good hits, dead deer, no blood trail. Interesting

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 09:51 AM
I just wonder what a 180 grain would do out of such a short barrel, and If I would be able to make a complete pass through at 200 yards.
200 yards is not really that far, but a big hog is a pretty tough animal.
I hunted yesterday morning with my 8MM Mauser all I saw was some Deer, but no hogs, but switched off for the Ruger yesterday evening, because it has a scope on it, late evening with iron sights and Im not so good. :)

603Country
February 18, 2012, 09:51 AM
If you're shooting a 308, that short barrel isn't costing you enough velocity to be the cause of your problem. I have the same length barrel in my Ruger in 260 Remington, and it appears to be just as effective (or mighty close) on deer and hogs as my 270 with the 22 inch barrel. I shoot 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in the 260 and 130 gr Noslers in the 270). I'd expect your problem to be caused more by the bullet performance than the short barrel on the rifle. I'd try another bullet, and if you handload, try a faster powder.

buck460XVR
February 18, 2012, 09:51 AM
I too suggest a heavier bullet. A .308 with proper bullets should have no problem passing completely thru deer size game. If your bullets are blowing fist size entrance holes in deer, it does not mean you need increased velocity. It means your bullets are already too fragile for the velocities you have. The suggestion of 180s for boar is a good one.

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 10:02 AM
On the Buck Deer hit in the Shoulder, he didnt go far, and he had an intrance wound that looked normal size, when I pulled the hide off, it was blown up through the shoulder, and into the ribcage, I put my whole fist in there, but couldnt recover the bullet, no exit wound anywhere, the Doe was shot text book chest on shot, I recovered that bullet in the hide on the flank rught behind the ribcage, it was mushroomed beautifully, I did shoot a smaller deer right behind the shoulder with that gun, at about and got a pass through, at about 80 yards. but on the chest and shoulder shots it stops the bullets,and they dont exit. when I shot the Hog, there were two of them, I shot and they ran in the thicket, one hog came back across the other didnt. But no way to pick up a trail because no blood, I feel confident about the shot, I know I hit him.

RaySendero
February 18, 2012, 10:41 AM
TX,

The lack of penetration in the buck was a problem with the bullet construstion and where you hit him and what you hit.

Brian Pfleuger
February 18, 2012, 10:50 AM
Core-lokts don't penetrate very well, from all the stories I see as well as limited personal experience.

Switch to something that holds together. I like Barnes TTSX. For a short barrel, load the a light bullet as fast as you can get accuracy. It WILL penetrate and it WILL expand.

Dramatic holes are nice to see but they don't make any better blood trail. TTSX bullets will have exit wounds close to the diameter of a large thumb. That's enough for blood to leak. Plenty enough.

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 10:51 AM
Do you think it was bone that stopped the bullet?
Another question, If I switch to a 180 Grain Projectile, what kind of range do you think I will have for practical hunting.
I would like to be able to atleast take shots out to 200 yards, Its raining today so I may load up some 180s with my IMR 4895 and some Speer Hot-cor 180 Grain soft points I have, Dont know what charge will work will have to experiment a little.

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 11:40 AM
On the two deer you shot that didnt leave a blood trail, what did you shoot them with ?

shortwave
February 18, 2012, 12:00 PM
I'm not a big 'rifle' hunter, but I'd think a bonded bullet built for penetration would work best out of a rifle. Especially out of a shorter bbl.

Thoughts from you rifle experts ???

musher
February 18, 2012, 12:03 PM
I'd agree with folks above. 308 is just fine for any sort of non-exotic animal you're likely to encounter down there. Just don't take a prone shot in the grass with that short barrel!

A large entrance wound is symptomatic of too much velocity or a bullet that's coming apart shortly after impact. Hitting bone just under the skin will do it. My experience with the corelokts on Moose is that sometimes they will exit and sometimes not. Depends entirely on what kind of structures they encounter on the way through. I have seen through and throughs on moose at 200+ yards with the 150 corelokt though.

I've had very good terminal performance from the nosler partitions, though their accuracy has been so-so for me. I've only ever retrieved one nosler and that was from a caribou shot front to back lengthwise including about 4" of neck vertebrae. Though I don't keep written records, my sense is that the meat damage from these bullets is lower than with the corelokts.

If you want the exit wound, I'd switch to a premium bonded or partition type load and see how it works.

Double Naught Spy
February 18, 2012, 12:20 PM
I don't believe power is your issue necessarily. Just before Christmas, I shot this 220 lb mulefoot boar at about 140 yards. It was impacted on the right side and ran. My hunting buddy said he hear the round impact the hog. Of course, it ran into heavy brush. So we went to the feeder where the hog was shot to find the blood trail. There was none. Strangely, there weren't any fresh hog track despite the ground be soft and bare. So we split up and search in the general direction it ran. I found the hog about 100 yards from where it was shot. By luck, it collapsed at the edge of the truck trail between thickets.

I was shooting a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 and using 325 gr. Leverevolution hollowpoint ammo. At that distance, the round would have been traveling at over 1630 fps.

Here is the hog. The point of impact is visible in this image, only at the time, there was no blood on the exterior of the hog except some at the mouth. Given that I had not shot the head, there was apparently lung damage, but we could not find the hole. We rolled him over and checked the other side for an exit wound. Nothing. Rolled him back over and finger prodded him until a finger found a divot that turned out to be the entry hole. The hole was located forward of the white spot that seen top center of the hog.

The would did not produce blood until after we loaded the hog on the cart and transported it wound side down and then some of the fur and bed had a bit of blood. The boar's belly, however, felt like a sow with milk. It had bled extensively internal. It was rather like the wound was self-sealing. So you won't get a blood trail and the animal won't bleed much if you don't hit a highly vascular area and if the blood can find it easier to flow internally instead of externally.

So that was why there was no blood trail despite using a large caliber with fine velocity. Why no tracks? There were all sorts of tracks under the feeder and several heading in the general direction the hog ran, but none looked to be fresh hog tracks. They reason this hog did not leave us any hog tracks because it was mulefooted (syndactyl). Sure enough, there were some bizarre little horse/mule-like prints under the feeder but we knew those were not from the hog because hogs are cloven hooved...except when they are mulefooted, something neither of us had ever seen before in real life.

Note that other hogs I have shot with this round have bleed profusely. Sometimes things just don't go as planned.

Turns out that the hog was one that we were familiar with for at least the previous 4-5 months and had been given the name "Gash Back." This hog had been seen on the game camera as far back as August and was missing a large chunk of flesh where his hump should have been (gunshot wound?), about a softball diameter area that indicated a loss of about an inch of flesh. The gash was still not fully healed.

And boy, this guy stunk.

rickyrick
February 18, 2012, 12:43 PM
It's always hard to predict what's gonna happen, I would try other ammo before giving up on the rifle.

Past 100 yards I can hear the hit. Less I can't.

603Country
February 18, 2012, 01:30 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of Nosler Ballistic Tips. They are super accurate, and the latest generation are constructed a good bit tougher than generation one was, though I never lost a deer with a gen 1 bullet. In my 270, since I stocked up years ago, I may still be using the older version of the bullet. Works fine. Only thing to be careful of is to avoid angled shots. Sometimes they don't exit. I have noticed that in my 260 I don't always get an exit on a large hog, even with the lung shots, though the pigs are always just as dead. If I wasn't using the Noslers, I'd switch to the Sierra Gamekings. Also very accurate. But, if I just had to shoot a critter from end to end, I'd go with the Nosler Partition. There are a lot of other bullets out there with good credentials, but the tried and true Partition is still about as good as it gets. I used them for a while in my 223 and shot some big hogs and got good performance, though they'd run a ways - so I went back to the 260 and the Ballistic Tips and so far all the pigs do is drop straight down.

Daryl
February 18, 2012, 02:29 PM
You don't need a different gun. You need a better bullet that won't come apart.

A large entrance and no exit tells me that the bullet is expanding too quickly. Some hunters want this, while others want an exit. I fall in the latter category for most game I hunt, and I choose my bullets accordingly.

Daryl

TX Hunter
February 18, 2012, 03:03 PM
Well my Son and I loaded up 20 Rounds of 180 Grain Speer Hot Cor and 39.5 grains of IMR 4895 acording to my reloading manual thats right in the middle between a starting load, and a maximum charge. I will take them out and see if they are reasonably accurate, and try to get another shot on a Hog to see if they perform better. Double Naut Spy, I have heard of a Mule Footed Hog before, but never seen one, till now, thanks. I might have hit that hog in the shield and had it close up on me.
NOTE *
The Load I shot the Hog with was a Factory Reminton .308 150 Grain Coreloct, They are accurate, but Dont seem to have the effect I am looking for on Tuff Game like Feral Hog.

scoutman
February 18, 2012, 03:40 PM
Change your POI to the shoulder 1/3 up. This will disable the animal; therefore you won't need a blood trail.

FrankenMauser
February 19, 2012, 03:02 AM
What are all of you talking about, with the short barrel robbing him of velocity, and causing bullets to explode?.. :rolleyes:

If the short barrel diminished the velocity enough to make a difference, the bullet would have penetrated without expanding. It didn't. It exploded, instead.

That fact supports my theory, and my experience:
Too much velocity with a poor bullet choice.
And... avoid 150 and 165 gr Remington Core-Lokts in .308 and .30-06.

They are far too fragile for the application, and tend to blow up like a varmint bullet.

TX - Use anything, but the 150/165 Core-Lokts. Your handload sounds like it should be work well.

HiBC
February 19, 2012, 04:23 AM
My DPMS LR308 has an 18 in bbl.It also has a gas port hole drilled in the bbl that costs about 75 fps.With handloads,I easily get 2650 fps using 165 Ballistic Tips.

While I do not suggest an Accubond for your deer,with a 165 gr Accubond,that load will do just fine on elk if you place a heart/lung shot through the ribs,out to 300 yds.

A 300 Savage,a 30-40 Krag,and a .303 British will all give a deer all the killing it needs at 200 yds.

I believe the problem is,as others have said,a bullet that is not strong enough for the job,not your short barrel.

A few months back I witnessed a bull bison killed with a 16 in bbl FN FAL in 308.(ok,7.62).The bullets were either 165 or 150 gr Barnes copper bullets.Our shooter has a professional habit of double tapping,which he did on this bull.

That bull died quickly and cleanly....as well as the one shot with a 45-70 Sharps,and the one shot with a 416 RUM.

No put down on the 180,but for deer and maybe a hog,I think a good 165 will give you a little better velocity,and fine performance.

The combination of less velocity and a deeper penetrating bullet in a 180 gr may be too much of a good thing...you may not get as much expansion as you want.

I cannot imagine you will have anything but good results on deer with a 165 gr Ballistic Tip,and I'm sure Sierras and Hornady interlocks or SSTs will work,a Speer Mag tip will work.

H-4895 is not a bad powder choice.Re-15 and Varget will also work.

Art Eatman
February 19, 2012, 08:32 AM
I've had excellent results with Sierra's 150-grain flat-base in my '06, and I'm getting around 3,000 ft/sec without blowup problems.

Rifleman1776
February 19, 2012, 09:11 AM
The tendancy is to always want bigger. Not usually necessary.
This past deer season I downed a big doe with my 30-06, dropped where she stood. The bullet was a 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, not unlike the partition. The bullet went all the way through her and exited. Not a drop of blood to be seen anywhere until I cut her open.
I usually hunt with a traditional muzzle loader and pure (soft) lead round ball. The balls sometimes exit, sometimes not but the deer take an short leap and drop with seldom a blood trail.
Ye got yer deer, that's wat counts.

TX Hunter
February 19, 2012, 09:17 AM
Thanks Guys, I will try a different bullet, like the Hand Loaded ones for Hogs, and try to work on Shot Placement maby things will work out better.
Thanks for all the replys, :)

thallub
February 19, 2012, 09:20 AM
I'm frustrated, and want a good blood trail,

Your are not going to get a good blood trail with hogs every time. You will not even get a good blood trail most of the time; that's the nature of hogs. There is no substitute for putting the bullet in the right place.

publius
February 19, 2012, 07:11 PM
Bullets can be unpredictable and do strange things. It sounds to me like you got a bad box of bullets though. Although Core-Lokt's aren't the best penetrators on the planet, they are good and are what I used back before I started handloading. I have killed dozens of whitetail with .308/.30-06 Core-Lokt's and almost always got exit wounds. I would suggest that you go buy some Federals loaded with Partitions.

jimbob86
February 19, 2012, 07:56 PM
As previously mentioned, the short barrel is costing you velocity.

Not enough to worry about, if Corelockts are "blowing up".

We took a good sized buck last fall with a Ruger Frontier in 7-08, 150 gr handloads, downloaded to 2400 for use by the kiddoes...... 150 gr "blemished bullets" from Midway ....... recovered the bullet and it weighs 76.5 grains..... 40 yard quartering away shot, hitting high in the ribs on the near side and lodging against a rib on the far side, tearin up the top of both lungs ....deer went 50 yards or so, spraying blood out the entrance wound with every breath......

I have chronographed several loads out of that gun, including Remington factory loads (150 gr Corelokts, 2660 f/sec), 139 gr Hornady Sp (40 gr IMR4064 gave 2525 f/sec) and the 150gr Midway blems (37.6 gr of the 4064 got me the 2400 f/sec I was looking for) ..... Top powders listed in my manuals were much slower, like RE19, H4350*, W760 and H414......but I figured that the 16.5" barrel of the Frontier would waste much of their oomph as flash and bang ..... so I chose a quicker powder, lower down on the list. It has worked pretty well..... 30/30 level energy with little recoil or blast, in a kid friendly package. Now to get a can for it!


*My brother used the H4350 in his daugter's A-Bolt (24" barrel) in 7-08 ..... got about 2800 f/sec out of it with Hornady SST's, IIRC.....

jimbob86
February 19, 2012, 08:25 PM
One was shot with a Nosler Ballistic-Tip, one with a Hornady SST. Good hits, dead deer, no blood trail. Interesting


Neither one of those are controlled expansion types, IIRC- if you need exits, you should to go with a bonded bullet like accubond, a Partition, or one of the all copper offerings like Scirrrocco, or TSX.

Oddly enough, I use a relatively soft bullet in my .270 WIN (150gr SIERRA Gameking) and get exits on all my broadside shots, even out to 460 yards...... on frontal shots under under 100, though, they break up and stop before they get to the diaphram. That's useful!

BIG P
February 19, 2012, 09:13 PM
I have 16'' saiga in 308 I use to hog hunt.I also use 150gr.SST hornady with the same no pass through But I've not had one go 20yds from impact yet,& Am getting pretty good penatration & blood trail from entrance wound.

So IMO just change your bullets you'll be fine.A couple of the hogs were 250-300lbs that I took with SST's might try them. good luck.

Kreyzhorse
February 19, 2012, 09:16 PM
Core-Lokts have always done a great job for me, but in your case, try some different ammo and see how that works for you. I'd guess a different round might help with an exit wound.

603Country
February 19, 2012, 10:00 PM
I shot an awful lot of deer with core-lokt bullet and had no problems that I can remember, but the bullet was mostly in my 35 Remington. That old 35 would penetrate most anything (deer, hog, engine block). Maybe at high velocities it'll destruct too soon. I can't say, though I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

TX Hunter
February 19, 2012, 10:45 PM
Well I tried my New Hand Load today, and suprisingly it was very accurate, and even hit the same place as my factory load did, Which is strange, but anyhow, I took it hunting this evening, and all I have to say is it hits like a Sledge Hammer.
I shot a Sow Hog this very evening with it at 160 yards, (known Yardage to Feeder) and It Penetrated the Skull Exited, went beside down the neck then penetrated again on the base of the neck and inside of the shoulder, Blew up the Heart we didnt find the bullet,but it was a head on shot, and with the distance it travled after striking bone I would say it was Excelent performance, Dead hog, my Son and I and a good friend Skinned the The Hog, and were all impressed with what the 180 grain handload did in the Carbine. It was impressive, and the accuracy suprised me because It was just a guess. I have no doubt that with a Rib Cage shot, that this load would exit and leave a Blood Trail.
Thanks for all the help guys, and I recomend this load. .308 Winchester Speer Hot Cor 180 over 39.5 Grains of IMR 4895. Taken out of the Complete Reloading manual for .308 Winchester, the little Yellow book.:)

HiBC
February 20, 2012, 05:07 AM
Good for you! That is one of the advantages of handloading.

phil mcwilliam
February 20, 2012, 08:13 PM
Each to their own, but Remington core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft points is the ammunition I use by choice in my .308. They won't always pass through a deer, & quite often the bullet is found just under the skin on the far shoulder, having expended all its energy within the deer. I've culled several hundred pigs using 150 grain .308's, & if pigs are running away after being chest shot, my guess is you are hitting them too far back.
I hope the 180 grain load works for you, but I won't be changing from what's worked for me for the last 25 years or so.

TX Hunter
February 20, 2012, 08:35 PM
I dont have anything against Coreloct bullets either, Ive have killed lots of game with them over the past several years too, They just didnt work the best for this short carbine.
I will still use them in my longer barreled Rifles.
Quick Question though, When shooting at a Hog, from the side, should I aim for The Shoulder, or Behind the Shoulder, to make a good shot ?

phil mcwilliam
February 20, 2012, 09:32 PM
I always aim for shoulder , neck or even head shots on pigs. If you aim behind the shoulder you will possibly just clip the lungs & your pig will keep running.

rickyrick
February 21, 2012, 05:51 AM
I aim for the neck, or very low just behind the leg. The low chest shot may be tricky at some distance. The neck is a fairly large target.

TX Hunter
February 21, 2012, 07:30 AM
Thanks for the tip Ricky Rick,

warbirdlover
February 21, 2012, 05:41 PM
I use 150 gr coreloks in my .300 Win Mag for deer and 180 gr for elk. No whitetail or mule deer, elk or black bear have ever gone farther then 10 yards after shot behind the shoulder. They usually drop on the spot. The bullet always goes through and puts a good hole in the animal. Not always alot of blood though. I want the shocking power. Weatherby knew what he was talking about.

The same goes for the 270 Win 130 gr I now use (corelok or ballistic tip Winchester). They go down like a rock.

the .308 and 30-06 I had did not put them down like this. Everything I've ever used (except a .243) has always penetrated (and the .243 would have to with nosler partitions).

603Country
February 21, 2012, 06:18 PM
I shoot em (deer, pigs, and coyotes) just behind the shoulder. That has always worked just fine, even on a 'godzilla' Boar I shot some 20 years ago (270, with 130 grain Ballistic Tips). I have always felt that the behind the shoulder shot, if you don't put the bullet too far back, gave me a larger kill zone - more of a vertical zone rather than horizontal. That's more forgiving (for me anyway) if you aren't sure of the range. I started doing it that way back when I had that old 35 Remington, which had a trajectory like a mortar round, and I just carried that approach over to my flatter shooting rifles.

LSnSC
February 21, 2012, 07:01 PM
Looks live you've found a load thet works. I've used an 18.5" barreled Model 7 for years with 150 Speer Mag Tips. They got impossible to find locally, so I switched to Sierra 150 Pro Hunters over Varget or H4895 with very good results on deer and pigs.
If you want to boost you velocity some and have a bullet that will expand and penetrate any hog or deer stem to stern, try the Barnes TTSX 130. I use the TTSX 95's in my 6.8 SPCII. They perform much better than you would think a light bullet at modest velocity should.

langenc
March 1, 2012, 11:03 PM
Corelokts exploding,really!!

They dont do that for me..

bobnoffs
March 6, 2012, 08:08 AM
it's the BULLET! i will never shoot another deer with a rem, 150 gr corelock bullet again.
i shot a 200 lb dressed buck this fall quartering at me at 150 yds with a .308. perfect shot placement in ''left front quarter' trailed him 2 hrs saturday, 6 hrs sunday, 5 hrs monday, of us outsmarted him and killed him tues. morning. his shoulder was obviouslt broken, bullet didn't exit. we had a fresh snow and he was hurt bad enough that he would bed every time i quit pushing. he would be where i left off the day before. he was also strong enough that out of 6-8 times i kicked him from his bed i only saw him once.
i don.t know about a 30/30 but i know a .308 ahould have ventilated him left front shoulder to right ham. it never got to a vital organ.
i posted this on another forum and asked for bullet recommendationsfor a better bullet. federal supreme[ or something like that] came up in 165 gr. one hunter said he has shot 30 deer with this load in .308 and never lost one. when i asked how the bullets expanded, did they breakup, his answer was he never shot a deer that the bullet stayed in!
i have shot broadside deer with the remington and that is pretty easy kill for any bullet but i will never carry that load again. i never want to do that to another animal or myself again.
bob noffs
n. wi.

MOshooter65202
March 6, 2012, 08:35 AM
All bullets are not constructed equally,with this statement I am still a bit confused with the performance of the corelokts? Most reviews of this bullet always seems to get good reviews for hunting thin skinned game?

I personally hunt with 7mm rem mag and use Nosler Partition bullets with nothing but good results,I would try handloading with a better constructed bullet.

Good luck

GlockedNLoded32
March 6, 2012, 08:53 AM
I would come up with your own load using hornady sst's they are great i use them for my .308 and I also use Hornady Amax as well both 168 grain

dlb0412
March 6, 2012, 09:21 AM
Remington might be making there bullets cheaper like they do everything else now. Get a bonded bullet that keeps most of its weight. If you want it to exit stay away from sst and ballistic tips. Try 168 grain barnes tipped tripple shock. Your .308 is plenty powerfull for anything in the lower 48. Its not the rifle its the bullet. Good luck.

TX Hunter
March 6, 2012, 09:47 AM
Well I saw it again, my Son wanted to shoot a Hog so I took him Sunday evening. A big Boar came out and my Son Shot him in the Shoulder at 142 yards (measured with a Bushnell Backtrack) My Sons Rifle is a Savage 110 30 06 his load was Remington Coreloct 180 grain. He hit the Hog , in the shoulder and dust flew from the Hog, and once again no blood trail. I dont understand it because we have had that gun over 20 years and killed several deer and hogs with it and alwayse got a blood trail with it. I saw the impact and know he hit the hog in the shoulder, his 30 06 should have blown chunks at that short distance but it didnt. I wonder if the material in the bullet has changed.

thallub
March 6, 2012, 10:08 AM
in the shoulder and dust flew from the Hog, and once again no blood trail.

Do not shoot big hogs in the shoulder: Shoot them low just behind the shoulder-heart shot. Hogs usually leave a skimpy blood trail at best.

rickyrick
March 6, 2012, 12:56 PM
As I just posted in the other thread, they can scrunch down real low and become almost invisible maybe it hid real close.

Doyle
March 6, 2012, 01:32 PM
Tallub is right. You are hitting them in the wrong place. Between the thick shield of a boar and the shoulder blades, your bullet is more likely to stick than to pass through. Go for the spot behind the shoulder and you'll get a cleaner kill AND a pass-through.

Grunt96
November 1, 2014, 04:31 PM
Using a 30-06 and 150gr core lokt on hogs from 100 yards to 200 the bullets exploded. Not a single exit between 3 shot. All were dead and clean kills, but I decided to move to 165gr in both 30-06 and 308. I mostly use Speer 165gr SPBT in my 308, handloaded now. Power points and core lokt are both good hunting bullets for deer and hogs though. Atleast for shots 300 yards or less, which is the ranges most people harvest game.

bamaranger
November 2, 2014, 12:32 AM
Much ado about nothing. A .308/150 is a classic deer load, I'd think more than enough for a TX whitetails and hogs, irregardless of barrel length/velocity or lack of it. The OP claims to have shot 3 animals, recovered two, and the third may or may not have been a hit, and may not have been a good hit.

The next three may drop on the spot, with or without exit wounds. How dead does the deer need to be?

Bamaboy and I each killed a mature buck last season with the .308 Hog Rifle and 1st generation 180 gr Nosler B-tips. Slightly quartering shots, and neither yielded an exit, we recovered both bullets. Both deer went 10-20 yds before piling up. We care not a bit. We shot the 180's cause the rifle likes'em, and I traded for a couple of hundred. Also have had good luck with Sierra flat base 150's, from two other rifles, and one of those has a stubby barrel too.

If you've lost confidence in the load, why not change if that might boost confidence, but I'm claiming any 150, cup and core bullet from a .308 will work for you, just give it a chance.

Snyper
November 2, 2014, 02:08 AM
It's a 2 year old thread, and the OP hasn't been here since:

TX Hunter
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Grunt96
November 2, 2014, 11:15 PM
It's a 2 year old thread, and the OP hasn't been here since:
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jimbob86
November 3, 2014, 12:23 AM
It's a 2 year old thread, and the OP hasn't been here since:


That does not mean that the question has been answered adequately for everybody ...... nor that new readers can't gain from insight that was first laid down years ago....... nor that new posters can't have their $.02 .......

..... I come here to kick it around- talk about gun stuff ...... if you don't want to do that ..... then don't.

Snyper
November 3, 2014, 05:49 AM
That does not mean that the question has been answered adequately for everybody ...... nor that new readers can't gain from insight that was first laid down years ago....... nor that new posters can't have their $.02 ....

I agree about all that.
I just wanted to pont out the fact it's an ancient thread for those who hadn't noticed, and there probably won't be any response from the OP

tahunua001
November 3, 2014, 11:10 AM
as much as I dislike posting in zombie threads.

the resurrection artist needs to understand that there is a huge difference in the velocity of a standard length 308 or 30-06 and a 308 coming from a 16 inch barrel, especially if the powder is of a slower burn rate. I am not a fan of remington. I have had such terrible results with their hunting ammo I have completely sworn off them for that application. what I'm thinking is the case, here, is that the corelokts are behaving like varmint loads, instantly expanding and fragmenting and not holding enough weight to get proper penetration. one poster in this thread said something along the lines of "more than enough for tiny TX deer". well that right there should be an indicator that something is wrong if relatively close range shots on small deer still can't muster the oomph for a pass through wound.

the problem is likely a mixture of poor bullet construction and the short barrel hampering velocity. if I were going to handload for it, and I love to work up new loads. I would likely load up a strong load using a total copper bullet like a nosler Etip or barnes TTSX, upping the weight is not really necessary for "tiny tx whitetails". in order to negate the loss of velocity from the short barrel I would suggest using one of the faster burning powders like IMR3031. according to hodgdon data, a 150gr nosler Etip can be pushed 2850 FPS from a 24 inch barrel, likely this would drop to the 2600FPS range by the shorter barrel but that still leaves a decently effective cartridge. the gilded metal bullet will not explode on contact with a front quarter and will likely pass through.


however with all of this said. very few of my animals I've taken were pass through shots. pass through is not necessary to kill animals and unless it has guts dragging out of the exit wound, it's not going to leave a blood trail immediately on the spot, it has to pump blood out of the wound and that takes several seconds before it begins to drip. if a person has the devasting effects on entrance that the OP claims, that is the equivalent of a well designed bullet's exit wound and would likely have left similar trails. the fact that the animal died before it bled out enough to leave a trail is pointless. if you can't track that short of distance without a blood trail, then you probably aren't a very good tracker to begin with.

HiBC
November 3, 2014, 01:41 PM
I'll say it again.Regarding penetration,velocity is over rated.

We are talking less than 200 yds in this thread.

His barrel length /velocity is not the issue.

We need enough velocity to cause the bullet to perform as designed.Thats someplace in the vicinity of 2000 fps for most common jacketed rifle hunting bullets.

It can be less if the bullet is designed for less.

With exactly the same cartridges out of the same box from the initial post.shooting the same hog in exactly the same place,the 16 or 18 in bbl likely got more,not less penetration than a higher velocity 26 in bbl would have .

A 30-30 may well have given as much penetration.

Velocity is useful,but before scopes and extended ranges,people were shooting holes through game with much lower velocity.

I have no Africa experience or expertise,but seems I heard 2200 to 2400 fps is a preferred velocity range for shooting big dangerous critters because of dependable bullet performance (penetration) in that zone.

From the 6.5 x55 heavy bullet loads,7x57 175 gr loads,30-40 200 gr loads,.303 Brit,bigger game than deer and hogs have been harvested for 100 yrs.

The velocity range of our OP's rifle will not challenge a good cup and core flat base bullet.Maybe 150 gr for his shot is a bit light,but most folks use those on ribs and lungs,not shoulders.

Myself,I don't know that I'd go to a harder light bullet,but a generic 180 flat base from Sierra,Speer,Hornady,Nosler,etc at about 2500 fps,out to 200 yds,will get business done.

T. O'Heir
November 3, 2014, 01:49 PM
Ya'll notice the date of the original post?

Double Naught Spy
November 3, 2014, 05:31 PM
Ya'll notice the date of the original post?

Did you notice the 5 of the 6 recent posts before yours discussing the age of the thread? LOL.

Unlicensed Dremel
November 3, 2014, 05:42 PM
Yep, as mentioned, a bigger gun / bullet / chambering certainly won't HURT, and is simply one of two ways to go about solving the problem. (in your case, going with a bigger gun might mean, say, a .30-'06 with a 220 grainer, or .338'-06 with 250 grainer - in nonpremium bullet offerings).

But since the cartridge itself is already a high-pressure, high-vel, "full-powered" modern cartridge, the OTHER way to go about it (withOUT increasing recoil), is to focus on that key key ingredient of bullet construction.

You need a premium bullet with the same rifle- not a "standard cup and core", or a "ballistic tip" bullet (you were using a standard cup and core....even though it's called a "core-lokt" this is misleading; it's not an actual premium bullet).

Get something the penetrates better - a "premium" bullet - one of these types:

1. Monolithic / gilding metal: Barnes TSX, Barnes TTSX, Hornady GMX, Nosler E-Tip,
or
2. Partitioned bullet: Nosler Partition, Swift A-frame
or
3. Bonded bullet: Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interbond, Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw**, others??

**which bullet is made by whom?

Oh, and *some* ballistic tips, like the Accubond and TTSX, are indeed premium bonded bullets, but bullets just labeled "Ballistic tip" or "Silvertip" are NOT bonded bullets.

I'm sure I missed a bunch of premium bullets, such as from Speer, Scirroco, Sierra, and others.

Also, finally, use a heavier bullet. Heavier bullets in the same caliber penetrate much better than lighter ones because not only do they have a higher sectional density (the most important factor after bullet construction and sheer mass, they are also going slower, which actually gives more penetration "down to a point" on the velocity scale (this is due to less rapid expansion).

EDIT: Oops, ok, it's old... but there's my .02 nevetheless.

Mike / Tx
November 3, 2014, 06:10 PM
OMG I can't handle it, even thought the original thread is old the trivial hogwash that has been, and is being spewed is totally ridiculous.

First off the OP is using the same length barrel I have on my Ruger Compact, and using the same Remington ammo I not only was buying bulk to hunt deer and hogs with, but also the same bullets I am handloading now to do so with. I can assure everyone here it isn't the bullets, they work just fine on deer and hogs weighing up to and over 400#. Been there done it out to 400yds with that same little Ruger Compact using those same factory Remington bullets. I get just over 2600fps out of the factory loads and believe me THEY DO NOT BLOW UP ON IMPACT.

That said though, I know where to shoot them, I also know the load and how it shoots in my little short rifle. It isn't the bullets trust me, and if you need pictures feel free to browse the link below.

my pic's (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/)

You will see plenty of critters taken with that short little Ruger using the Remington 150g CL's. I even used a plain jane ol cup and core on the cow elk pictured in there as well. Guess what, didn't go 10' from impact to dirt nap.

Really.... blowing up on impact, needing premium bullets, for hogs and whitetail deer????? utterly ridiculous.....

As for the '06, sorry to burst your bubbles but the same thing with it as well. Load the factory ammo, slip into the woods, find the critter, aim, shoot, and go clean said critter. No fuss, no muss, or exotic premium bullets needed....

Sheesh we're not talking about something like a Cape Buffalo...just someone who need to learn the sought after game's anatomy and practice shooting alot....

Unlicensed Dremel
November 3, 2014, 06:33 PM
It's not ridiculous, *IFF* your goal is to always have an exit hole, from any angle.... just depends on what you want, and your theory of the hunt, so to speak. Exit holes do help with tracking. But having said that, I agree with the general premise that premium bullets aren't needed for these species, to ethically harvest them.

603Country
November 3, 2014, 08:01 PM
My objective is ultimately to eat the deer I shoot. My objective has rarely been to get an exit hole, though an exit hole can be halpful. For shooting whitetail, any old cup and core bullet will do just fine. You don't need 'monolithic', bonded, or any other type high dollar bullet. Somehow, in the last decade or so, somebody convinced hunters that their cheap little basic bullet wasn't enough. But it is enough, and you don't need a BC of .600 to get the job done. Of course if folks want a high dollar bullet, that's fine.

jimbob86
November 3, 2014, 11:24 PM
the resurrection artist needs to understand that there is a huge difference in the velocity of a standard length 308 or 30-06 and a 308 coming from a 16 inch barrel, especially if the powder is of a slower burn rate. I am not a fan of remington. I have had such terrible results with their hunting ammo I have completely sworn off them for that application.

I shot Remington 140's in 7-08 through my Ruger Frontier ..... the chrono told me I had a velocity of 2660 ...... I sereiously doubt that neither the deer nor the shooter could notice anything resembling a "huge difference in the velocity" at the ranges the OP was talking about (under 200 yards) ..... the140ish f/sec difference for the two is less than an inch of trajectory and less than 200 ft/lbs of energy at 200 .....

If we move the range out to 400, then that velocity loss becomes significant .... but at 200? Not.

If you need 400 yard performance, then a carbine sized gun is not the answer ....... nor are flatbased factory loads......


The OP's problem was that he wanted an exit wound, and wasn't getting it ...... (wasn't happy with very near to DRT critters ......) a light for caliber cup and core bullet was not producing the results he wanted ......

The answer was, and is, pretty simple: heavier bullet, and/or one designed to hold together better- either bonded, dual core (like Partition or A-Frame), or a solid copper/guilding metal hollow point like the TSX or GMX ......

I surmise that a heavy for caliber bullet would work for him ...... it has been my experience that heavier bullets lose less velocity (though they have less to start with) in short barrels than lighter ones, all else being equal.....

My best results in my Frontier have been with heavier bullets and faster powders than the ones giving top velocities in the manuals ...... 150gr bullets and slightly reduced charges of IMR 4064 give good accuracy, low recoil, and less muzzle blast than full house factory loads, but still kill deer just fine out to as far as the kiddoes are capable of holding to .....

tahunua001
November 4, 2014, 12:24 AM
unfortunately, gilded metal and bonded bullet designs require high velocities to open up. nosler recommends at least 1800FPS for their accubond, partition, and Etip bullets to function properly. Speer recommended the same for their deep curl rifle bullets. unfortunately, real world tests have indicated to me, that this is also a low estimate, I have had Etips and partitions in various calibers fail to open more than minor mushrooming up to 2100FPS. for best performance, at least 2300FPS should be used, a velocity barely attainable from a 308 with 16 inch barrel when talking about a 180gr bullet.

considering this data I just stole from a different forum

150 gr HPBT Win 748 loaded to a chamber pressure of 56.4K PSI WARM load 45 gr NOT a starting load. I chose 748 as the powder as it is most like NATO powder.

26" = 2918 FPS MP= 6.6K PSI ––99.6 % powder burnt -2836 ft/lbs
24" = 2873 FPS MP= 7.4K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2750 ft/lbs
22" = 2823 FPS MP= 8.2K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2655 ft/lbs
20" = 2766 FPS MP= 9.2K PSI ––98.7 % powder burnt -2548 ft/lbs
18" = 2700 FPS MP= 10.5K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2428 ft/lbs
16" = 2623 FPS MP= 12.0K PSI -97% powder burnt ––––2291 ft/lbs
14" = 2531 FPS MP= 14.0K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––2133 ft/lbs
12" = 2417 FPS MP= 16.7K PSI -94% powder burnt ––1946 ft/lbs
10" = 2273 FPS MP= 20.5K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––1721 ft/lbs
8.0"= 2080 FPS MP= 26.0K PSI -87% powder burnt. -1441 ft/lbs
6.0"= 1800 FPS MP= 34.1K PSI -79.4% powder burnt -1080 ft lbs
as you can see using w748 powder, which is on the lower end of average burn rate for the 308 cartridge loses nearly 450FPS from a standard 24" barrel to a 16 inch barrel. if a person wants to use gilded metal or bonded bullets effectively, they will still have to worry about velocity and still have to use a faster burn rate powder to make the most use of the short barrel. I stand by my post which you quoted, but took out of context. you ignored the point I made which corresponds with your post about bullet selection being key, and fail to take into account the velocity requirements of well crafted bullets.

Ibmikey
November 4, 2014, 03:59 AM
My Texas buddy knocks hogs "butt over teakettle" with an AR I made for him using 55 gr. FMJ Federal American Eagle, although not an expert he has counted almost 500 hogs taken by him from one of his properties. I cheated last month and used a AAC Handi Rifle in 300 Blackout with a puny 125 gr. Sierra TNT....my 350 pound boar (biggest I ever shot) was hit in the shoulder where I aimed and at the angle that took heart out. Small entry no exit no external blood but after running sixty yards he was a dead Texas hog. Shot placement is where it is at. I guess this old boar did not know a 300 Blackout/TNT would defeat his "shield".

reynolds357
November 4, 2014, 03:11 PM
TX Hunter, I suggest you use a 7Rum with a 140 TSX. It will expand, exit, leave everything in between the entrance and exit looking like a explosion, if need be leave a blood river.;)
I like mine so well I am building another just like it.

Old Stony
November 4, 2014, 03:45 PM
I've probably killed more hogs than most guys will see in the wild in their lifetime. Myths abide everywhere about the awesome power and specialty bullets needed to penetrate the "shields" on the boars or make holes that will bleed enough. The reality of the situation is it's all overblown and over thought.
I've killed them with everything from 44/40 to 45/70 and a whole lot of calibers in between and never lacked for power. If you just want a blood trail, gut shooting them is probably the answer....but if you want to kill them outright, just shoot them through the shoulder into the boiler room.
I normally use a .223 or a .308 these days..but only because of the optics I have mounted on those two particular rifles. Many other calibers I own would work just as good.
Just as IBMikey stated about the 300 blackout...put it where it should be and they go down. They are not mythological creatures..they are just pigs.

pete2
November 4, 2014, 06:02 PM
I've killed quite a few Whitetails with .243 and .270. The only one I ever lost was a gut shot doe. I hit a tree about half way between me and the deer. Some of the bullets passed thru some didn't. None ran over 50 yards. There is no reason the .308 shouldn't perform as well as a .243 or .270. SHOT PLACEMENT IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE. Bullets, 90 gr SP and 85 SP in the 243. 130 Hornady spire point, 130 Win Silvertip(old style) and 130 Nosler BT in the .270.
Broadside, lung shot. quartering shot, thru the center(heart/lung) if you do it right. The Silvertip and BT are pretty destructive and won't always shoot thru and thru but usually a quartering shot drops a deer in his tracks.
SHOT PLACEMENT.

jimbob86
November 4, 2014, 07:20 PM
considering this data I just stole from a different forum


....

A borrowed anecdote holds little credibility with me against things I've seen with my own eyes ..... measured with my own gun and chrony .....

I'm not saying your stolen data is just not so- it just does not jive with my own experiences with rifle powders on the quicker end of the spectrum in a 308 sized case and a 16" barrel.


As for the GMX/TSX type bullets needing 1800+ f/sec to open ...... a TSX load of comparable velocity to my own 7-08 reduced recoil load still exceeds that speed past 200 yards ..... which is as far as the OP was going to shoot anyhow...... moot point.

tahunua001
November 4, 2014, 09:46 PM
7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.

HiBC
November 5, 2014, 09:40 AM
I have witnessed a large bison bull taken with a 16 in bbl 308 from an FN FAL.A Veteran who had just returned from deployment,he double tapped the bull with 165 gr Barnes bullets.
Another bull was taken with a Sharps 45-70,and another with a 416 Rem mag.

All three animals were well hit.The 308 went down quickly from the double tap.

The 45-70 was a good hit,but he animal was still standing.After a few seconds,a second round was sent.Down.i
A 416 Rem has plenty of power.Bull was well hit,down.Other bulls coaxed him to his feet,using their horns,A few staggered steps,another round sent.Incredible impact.Perfect placement.He still stood 5 seconds or so before caving.
Bison are just big enough it takes them a bit to succumb.

The 16 in bbl 308 killed just as dead and just as fast as the 416.

By what stretch of the imagination does a hog or deer take more killng than a bison bull?

Is a 30-30 inadequate to kill a hog at the same ranges the OP discussed?

Would a 14 in bbl 308 or 35 Rem Contender kill a hog at 100 yds?

Will a 303 British reliably kill a moose?I think our Canadian friends can advise us.

How about a Krag? 300 Savage?

Yes!!Cutting the bbl lowers velocity.

For 150 yd hunting,2400 fps is just fine.

Some folks get good results with 7.62x39.

I do not believe in "stunt hunting" with marginal to inadequate cartridges.Use enough gun.But too many folks think more gun is the answer when other factors are the problem.

Ross Seifred went to Africa and took a cape buffalo with a hot loaded RugerBisley in 45 colt

Gunplummer
November 5, 2014, 12:52 PM
I will stick with my Corlokts in my medium cartridges. I had a bad experience with velocity and bullet type years back. I hit the deer through the lungs and was lucky and got another shot off through the shoulder. The first shot was close up and the bullet went through like I poked a pencil through the deer. When I shoot a deer in a soft spot, I want that bullet to open up. Just last year I stopped to talk to a young guy at a power line that had just shot a big doe with a 25-06. He was waiting for his father to come down to track it in the brush. He was absolutely sure he hit it in the lungs and it was dead. I looked where he said he shot it at and it probably was not 60 yards. I saw him later that day and they never got the deer. I would agree that since the high velocity rifle craze started, it would be a good idea to match your bullets to the cartridge. Where I hunt, 200 yards is a long shot. I stick with medium powered cartridges. Deer are not that tough and I am not afraid of them, although I know quite a few guys that sit in trees to hunt deer.

jimbob86
November 5, 2014, 04:56 PM
7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.


The WIN748 in your quoted data is faster* than the IMR4064 of my load .... I have a hard time believing a faster powder loses twice as much velocity as mine did ..... and I'm using a reduced load ..... some barrels are faster than others, and some are slower ..... some like some bullets, and choke on others ....



*how much faster, I don't know, but there are 8 powders between them on my burn chart .... with H335, RL12, and the 4895's (powders I am familiar with ..... ) listed as slower than the 748.

tahunua001
November 5, 2014, 05:00 PM
negative ghostrider. according to Hodgdon (https://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html), 748 is at the absolute slowest of the powders recommended for loading in 308. IMR3031 on the other hand is faster than w748, varget, imr4064, and h4895, all of which are about the most common powders used to load 308 or it's derivative cartridges.

IMR3031 is ranked 79th in terms of fastest powder burn out of 146 listed powders.
IMR4064 is ranked 94th.
W748 is ranked 102nd.

are you sure you're not thinking of winchester 296? ranked 64th?

jimbob86
November 5, 2014, 05:16 PM
Interesting .....Lee, Sierra, Accurate list it right next to BL-C(2), ahead of the 4895's ...... Hodgdon puts it past 4064 ......

One thing is certain, though: there are better powders than 748 for short barrels, if that data is to be believed .....

tahunua001
November 5, 2014, 05:18 PM
I feel more inclined to believe the company that manufactures all those powders than companies that just post load data for it. there is also the chance that the formulas have changed over time slightly altering the burn rates or even variance from lot to lot. however, I'm guessing the online references that hodgdon keeps are fairly up to date.

reynolds357
November 5, 2014, 09:07 PM
I believe if you will get a good Chronny, you will find that even with a 16" barrel, with the bullet weight you are using, you will still obtain highest velocity with slower powders lit with magnum primers.

thallub
November 6, 2014, 09:16 AM
Sometimes stuff just happens. Shot a big doe early in the 2014 OK muzzleloader season. The bullet was the excellent .45 caliber 300 grain Hornady magnum in a crush rib sabot. The muzzle velocity of my load has been chronographed at just over 1,925 fps.

The deer was 85-100 yards from me when i fired. The bullet impacted with about 1,600 foot pounds of energy. Because of the smoke i could not tell where the deer went. Went to the spot where the deer was standing: No blood at all.

Deer was found about 100 yards from where it was shot: There was a big pool of blood on the ground. Looked for blood on the deer trail and grass between the two points and none was found. The bullet hit both lungs and a piece of bone or piece of the bullet lacerated the heart. The entry and exit holes were huge.

Entry:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/DSC01797.jpg

Exit:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/DSC01798.jpg

Longshot4
November 10, 2014, 06:46 PM
With a 30-30 you should be using a 170Gr. bullet to get good penetration. Of course you need to hit the target (vitals). 150Yds is a good reach for the 30-30. Get rid of the 150Gr.