No Blood Trail, Rifle Not Powerful Enough

[TX Hunter]

I have a Rifle that I love but am starting to think that its not powerfull eneough. Its very accurate, but I shot a Ten Point Buck in the Shoulder with it this year at 60 yards and it didnt shoot all the way through, I found the Buck, and it blew a hole in the deer big eneough to stick my fist in, but did not exit. I shot a doe last season at 96 yards dropped her in her tracks with a chest shot, the bullet didnt exit, and yesterday evening, I shot a large hog with it at about 200 yards, I know I hit it, but no blood trail, and a lost animal.
My Rifle is a Ruger Frontier, with a 16.5" barrel, and I am shooting 150 grain Remington Corelocts. Im frustrated, and want a good blood trail, Should I try a different load, or work up a hand load, or trade it off for a longer barreled gun ? Any suggestions would be apreciated.

I did notice a Large Fireball when I shot late yesterday evening, so I am suspecting that alot of the powder is not being used in the short barrel.

[tchunter]

I've had the same problem in the past. The short berrol is costing you velocity but try some different rounds before a new gun. I ended up with hornady superformance sst.

[TX Hunter]

I had thought about trying to develop a handload with faster burning powder, but the problem with Reminton is they wont let you know what kind of powder they use. I have some IMR 4895 but dont know if it would make a difference. Maby a different bullet type, or weight. Whats wierd is I have had complete pass throughs with 30 30s and I know Ive got to be outrunning that cartridge.

[Discern]

As previously mentioned, the short barrel is costing you velocity. How long of a barrel is on your 30/30? What bullet weight are you using for the 30/30? Unless you use a chrony, you will not know the velocity of the bullets.

What caliber/cartridge are you shooting in your Ruger Frontier? If it is a .30 cal try a 165 gr bullet. The 165 gr. bullet is designed for deer sized game, and a heavier bullet usually spends more time in the barrel. This may give the powder a little extra burn time.

[TX Hunter]

My 30 30 that I have had complete pass throughs with has a 20 inch barrel, and I was using 170 Grain Remington Hollow Points, Im using 150 Grain Remoington Corelcot in the Ruger the Ruger is a .308 Winchester. I will try a heavier bullet, like the 165 grain you mentioned, If anything that should have more energy.

[Discern]

The weight of the 165 gr bullet may give you more penetration than the 150 gr bullet. Some 180's might work, but you need a 180 gr that will still expand reliably on deer with the velocity of the bullet at your shooting distances. I would prefer the 180 gr. bullet for wild boar.

[PawPaw]

I believe that rifle is powerful enough. The .308 is powerful enough for any medium game on the continent.

About blood trails. I haven't had a blood trail on the last two deer I've shot. Good bullet performance, good strong kill shots, but no blood trail. I found them both within 50 yards of the impact, and during autopsy I learned the the bullet did what I expected it to do. One was shot with a Nosler Ballistic-Tip, one with a Hornady SST. Good hits, dead deer, no blood trail. Interesting

[TX Hunter]

I just wonder what a 180 grain would do out of such a short barrel, and If I would be able to make a complete pass through at 200 yards.
200 yards is not really that far, but a big hog is a pretty tough animal.
I hunted yesterday morning with my 8MM Mauser all I saw was some Deer, but no hogs, but switched off for the Ruger yesterday evening, because it has a scope on it, late evening with iron sights and Im not so good. :)

[603Country]

If you're shooting a 308, that short barrel isn't costing you enough velocity to be the cause of your problem. I have the same length barrel in my Ruger in 260 Remington, and it appears to be just as effective (or mighty close) on deer and hogs as my 270 with the 22 inch barrel. I shoot 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in the 260 and 130 gr Noslers in the 270). I'd expect your problem to be caused more by the bullet performance than the short barrel on the rifle. I'd try another bullet, and if you handload, try a faster powder.

[buck460XVR]

I too suggest a heavier bullet. A .308 with proper bullets should have no problem passing completely thru deer size game. If your bullets are blowing fist size entrance holes in deer, it does not mean you need increased velocity. It means your bullets are already too fragile for the velocities you have. The suggestion of 180s for boar is a good one.

[TX Hunter]

On the Buck Deer hit in the Shoulder, he didnt go far, and he had an intrance wound that looked normal size, when I pulled the hide off, it was blown up through the shoulder, and into the ribcage, I put my whole fist in there, but couldnt recover the bullet, no exit wound anywhere, the Doe was shot text book chest on shot, I recovered that bullet in the hide on the flank rught behind the ribcage, it was mushroomed beautifully, I did shoot a smaller deer right behind the shoulder with that gun, at about and got a pass through, at about 80 yards. but on the chest and shoulder shots it stops the bullets,and they dont exit. when I shot the Hog, there were two of them, I shot and they ran in the thicket, one hog came back across the other didnt. But no way to pick up a trail because no blood, I feel confident about the shot, I know I hit him.

[RaySendero]

TX,

The lack of penetration in the buck was a problem with the bullet construstion and where you hit him and what you hit.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Core-lokts don't penetrate very well, from all the stories I see as well as limited personal experience.

Switch to something that holds together. I like Barnes TTSX. For a short barrel, load the a light bullet as fast as you can get accuracy. It WILL penetrate and it WILL expand.

Dramatic holes are nice to see but they don't make any better blood trail. TTSX bullets will have exit wounds close to the diameter of a large thumb. That's enough for blood to leak. Plenty enough.

[TX Hunter]

Do you think it was bone that stopped the bullet?
Another question, If I switch to a 180 Grain Projectile, what kind of range do you think I will have for practical hunting.
I would like to be able to atleast take shots out to 200 yards, Its raining today so I may load up some 180s with my IMR 4895 and some Speer Hot-cor 180 Grain soft points I have, Dont know what charge will work will have to experiment a little.

[TX Hunter]

On the two deer you shot that didnt leave a blood trail, what did you shoot them with ?

[shortwave]

I'm not a big 'rifle' hunter, but I'd think a bonded bullet built for penetration would work best out of a rifle. Especially out of a shorter bbl.

Thoughts from you rifle experts ???

[musher]

I'd agree with folks above. 308 is just fine for any sort of non-exotic animal you're likely to encounter down there. Just don't take a prone shot in the grass with that short barrel!

A large entrance wound is symptomatic of too much velocity or a bullet that's coming apart shortly after impact. Hitting bone just under the skin will do it. My experience with the corelokts on Moose is that sometimes they will exit and sometimes not. Depends entirely on what kind of structures they encounter on the way through. I have seen through and throughs on moose at 200+ yards with the 150 corelokt though.

I've had very good terminal performance from the nosler partitions, though their accuracy has been so-so for me. I've only ever retrieved one nosler and that was from a caribou shot front to back lengthwise including about 4" of neck vertebrae. Though I don't keep written records, my sense is that the meat damage from these bullets is lower than with the corelokts.

If you want the exit wound, I'd switch to a premium bonded or partition type load and see how it works.

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't believe power is your issue necessarily. Just before Christmas, I shot this 220 lb mulefoot boar at about 140 yards. It was impacted on the right side and ran. My hunting buddy said he hear the round impact the hog. Of course, it ran into heavy brush. So we went to the feeder where the hog was shot to find the blood trail. There was none. Strangely, there weren't any fresh hog track despite the ground be soft and bare. So we split up and search in the general direction it ran. I found the hog about 100 yards from where it was shot. By luck, it collapsed at the edge of the truck trail between thickets.

I was shooting a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 and using 325 gr. Leverevolution hollowpoint ammo. At that distance, the round would have been traveling at over 1630 fps.

Here is the hog. The point of impact is visible in this image, only at the time, there was no blood on the exterior of the hog except some at the mouth. Given that I had not shot the head, there was apparently lung damage, but we could not find the hole. We rolled him over and checked the other side for an exit wound. Nothing. Rolled him back over and finger prodded him until a finger found a divot that turned out to be the entry hole. The hole was located forward of the white spot that seen top center of the hog.

The would did not produce blood until after we loaded the hog on the cart and transported it wound side down and then some of the fur and bed had a bit of blood. The boar's belly, however, felt like a sow with milk. It had bled extensively internal. It was rather like the wound was self-sealing. So you won't get a blood trail and the animal won't bleed much if you don't hit a highly vascular area and if the blood can find it easier to flow internally instead of externally.

So that was why there was no blood trail despite using a large caliber with fine velocity. Why no tracks? There were all sorts of tracks under the feeder and several heading in the general direction the hog ran, but none looked to be fresh hog tracks. They reason this hog did not leave us any hog tracks because it was mulefooted (syndactyl). Sure enough, there were some bizarre little horse/mule-like prints under the feeder but we knew those were not from the hog because hogs are cloven hooved...except when they are mulefooted, something neither of us had ever seen before in real life.

Note that other hogs I have shot with this round have bleed profusely. Sometimes things just don't go as planned.

Turns out that the hog was one that we were familiar with for at least the previous 4-5 months and had been given the name "Gash Back." This hog had been seen on the game camera as far back as August and was missing a large chunk of flesh where his hump should have been (gunshot wound?), about a softball diameter area that indicated a loss of about an inch of flesh. The gash was still not fully healed.

And boy, this guy stunk.

[rickyrick]

It's always hard to predict what's gonna happen, I would try other ammo before giving up on the rifle.

Past 100 yards I can hear the hit. Less I can't.

[603Country]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Nosler Ballistic Tips. They are super accurate, and the latest generation are constructed a good bit tougher than generation one was, though I never lost a deer with a gen 1 bullet. In my 270, since I stocked up years ago, I may still be using the older version of the bullet. Works fine. Only thing to be careful of is to avoid angled shots. Sometimes they don't exit. I have noticed that in my 260 I don't always get an exit on a large hog, even with the lung shots, though the pigs are always just as dead. If I wasn't using the Noslers, I'd switch to the Sierra Gamekings. Also very accurate. But, if I just had to shoot a critter from end to end, I'd go with the Nosler Partition. There are a lot of other bullets out there with good credentials, but the tried and true Partition is still about as good as it gets. I used them for a while in my 223 and shot some big hogs and got good performance, though they'd run a ways - so I went back to the 260 and the Ballistic Tips and so far all the pigs do is drop straight down.

[Daryl]

You don't need a different gun. You need a better bullet that won't come apart.

A large entrance and no exit tells me that the bullet is expanding too quickly. Some hunters want this, while others want an exit. I fall in the latter category for most game I hunt, and I choose my bullets accordingly.

Daryl

[TX Hunter]

Well my Son and I loaded up 20 Rounds of 180 Grain Speer Hot Cor and 39.5 grains of IMR 4895 acording to my reloading manual thats right in the middle between a starting load, and a maximum charge. I will take them out and see if they are reasonably accurate, and try to get another shot on a Hog to see if they perform better. Double Naut Spy, I have heard of a Mule Footed Hog before, but never seen one, till now, thanks. I might have hit that hog in the shield and had it close up on me.
NOTE *
The Load I shot the Hog with was a Factory Reminton .308 150 Grain Coreloct, They are accurate, but Dont seem to have the effect I am looking for on Tuff Game like Feral Hog.

[scoutman]

Change your POI to the shoulder 1/3 up. This will disable the animal; therefore you won't need a blood trail.

[FrankenMauser]

What are all of you talking about, with the short barrel robbing him of velocity, and causing bullets to explode?.. :rolleyes:

If the short barrel diminished the velocity enough to make a difference, the bullet would have penetrated without expanding. It didn't. It exploded, instead.

That fact supports my theory, and my experience:
Too much velocity with a poor bullet choice.
And... avoid 150 and 165 gr Remington Core-Lokts in .308 and .30-06.

They are far too fragile for the application, and tend to blow up like a varmint bullet.

TX - Use anything, but the 150/165 Core-Lokts. Your handload sounds like it should be work well.

[HiBC]

My DPMS LR308 has an 18 in bbl.It also has a gas port hole drilled in the bbl that costs about 75 fps.With handloads,I easily get 2650 fps using 165 Ballistic Tips.

While I do not suggest an Accubond for your deer,with a 165 gr Accubond,that load will do just fine on elk if you place a heart/lung shot through the ribs,out to 300 yds.

A 300 Savage,a 30-40 Krag,and a .303 British will all give a deer all the killing it needs at 200 yds.

I believe the problem is,as others have said,a bullet that is not strong enough for the job,not your short barrel.

A few months back I witnessed a bull bison killed with a 16 in bbl FN FAL in 308.(ok,7.62).The bullets were either 165 or 150 gr Barnes copper bullets.Our shooter has a professional habit of double tapping,which he did on this bull.

That bull died quickly and cleanly....as well as the one shot with a 45-70 Sharps,and the one shot with a 416 RUM.

No put down on the 180,but for deer and maybe a hog,I think a good 165 will give you a little better velocity,and fine performance.

The combination of less velocity and a deeper penetrating bullet in a 180 gr may be too much of a good thing...you may not get as much expansion as you want.

I cannot imagine you will have anything but good results on deer with a 165 gr Ballistic Tip,and I'm sure Sierras and Hornady interlocks or SSTs will work,a Speer Mag tip will work.

H-4895 is not a bad powder choice.Re-15 and Varget will also work.

[Art Eatman]

I've had excellent results with Sierra's 150-grain flat-base in my '06, and I'm getting around 3,000 ft/sec without blowup problems.

[Rifleman1776]

The tendancy is to always want bigger. Not usually necessary.
This past deer season I downed a big doe with my 30-06, dropped where she stood. The bullet was a 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, not unlike the partition. The bullet went all the way through her and exited. Not a drop of blood to be seen anywhere until I cut her open.
I usually hunt with a traditional muzzle loader and pure (soft) lead round ball. The balls sometimes exit, sometimes not but the deer take an short leap and drop with seldom a blood trail.
Ye got yer deer, that's wat counts.

[TX Hunter]

Thanks Guys, I will try a different bullet, like the Hand Loaded ones for Hogs, and try to work on Shot Placement maby things will work out better.
Thanks for all the replys, :)

[thallub]

I'm frustrated, and want a good blood trail,

Your are not going to get a good blood trail with hogs every time. You will not even get a good blood trail most of the time; that's the nature of hogs. There is no substitute for putting the bullet in the right place.

[publius]

Bullets can be unpredictable and do strange things. It sounds to me like you got a bad box of bullets though. Although Core-Lokt's aren't the best penetrators on the planet, they are good and are what I used back before I started handloading. I have killed dozens of whitetail with .308/.30-06 Core-Lokt's and almost always got exit wounds. I would suggest that you go buy some Federals loaded with Partitions.

[jimbob86]

As previously mentioned, the short barrel is costing you velocity.

Not enough to worry about, if Corelockts are "blowing up".

We took a good sized buck last fall with a Ruger Frontier in 7-08, 150 gr handloads, downloaded to 2400 for use by the kiddoes...... 150 gr "blemished bullets" from Midway ....... recovered the bullet and it weighs 76.5 grains..... 40 yard quartering away shot, hitting high in the ribs on the near side and lodging against a rib on the far side, tearin up the top of both lungs ....deer went 50 yards or so, spraying blood out the entrance wound with every breath......

I have chronographed several loads out of that gun, including Remington factory loads (150 gr Corelokts, 2660 f/sec), 139 gr Hornady Sp (40 gr IMR4064 gave 2525 f/sec) and the 150gr Midway blems (37.6 gr of the 4064 got me the 2400 f/sec I was looking for) ..... Top powders listed in my manuals were much slower, like RE19, H4350*, W760 and H414......but I figured that the 16.5" barrel of the Frontier would waste much of their oomph as flash and bang ..... so I chose a quicker powder, lower down on the list. It has worked pretty well..... 30/30 level energy with little recoil or blast, in a kid friendly package. Now to get a can for it!


*My brother used the H4350 in his daugter's A-Bolt (24" barrel) in 7-08 ..... got about 2800 f/sec out of it with Hornady SST's, IIRC.....

[jimbob86]

One was shot with a Nosler Ballistic-Tip, one with a Hornady SST. Good hits, dead deer, no blood trail. Interesting


Neither one of those are controlled expansion types, IIRC- if you need exits, you should to go with a bonded bullet like accubond, a Partition, or one of the all copper offerings like Scirrrocco, or TSX.

Oddly enough, I use a relatively soft bullet in my .270 WIN (150gr SIERRA Gameking) and get exits on all my broadside shots, even out to 460 yards...... on frontal shots under under 100, though, they break up and stop before they get to the diaphram. That's useful!

[BIG P]

I have 16'' saiga in 308 I use to hog hunt.I also use 150gr.SST hornady with the same no pass through But I've not had one go 20yds from impact yet,& Am getting pretty good penatration & blood trail from entrance wound.

So IMO just change your bullets you'll be fine.A couple of the hogs were 250-300lbs that I took with SST's might try them. good luck.

[Kreyzhorse]

Core-Lokts have always done a great job for me, but in your case, try some different ammo and see how that works for you. I'd guess a different round might help with an exit wound.

[603Country]

I shot an awful lot of deer with core-lokt bullet and had no problems that I can remember, but the bullet was mostly in my 35 Remington. That old 35 would penetrate most anything (deer, hog, engine block). Maybe at high velocities it'll destruct too soon. I can't say, though I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

[TX Hunter]

Well I tried my New Hand Load today, and suprisingly it was very accurate, and even hit the same place as my factory load did, Which is strange, but anyhow, I took it hunting this evening, and all I have to say is it hits like a Sledge Hammer.
I shot a Sow Hog this very evening with it at 160 yards, (known Yardage to Feeder) and It Penetrated the Skull Exited, went beside down the neck then penetrated again on the base of the neck and inside of the shoulder, Blew up the Heart we didnt find the bullet,but it was a head on shot, and with the distance it travled after striking bone I would say it was Excelent performance, Dead hog, my Son and I and a good friend Skinned the The Hog, and were all impressed with what the 180 grain handload did in the Carbine. It was impressive, and the accuracy suprised me because It was just a guess. I have no doubt that with a Rib Cage shot, that this load would exit and leave a Blood Trail.
Thanks for all the help guys, and I recomend this load. .308 Winchester Speer Hot Cor 180 over 39.5 Grains of IMR 4895. Taken out of the Complete Reloading manual for .308 Winchester, the little Yellow book.:)

[HiBC]

Good for you! That is one of the advantages of handloading.

[phil mcwilliam]

Each to their own, but Remington core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft points is the ammunition I use by choice in my .308. They won't always pass through a deer, & quite often the bullet is found just under the skin on the far shoulder, having expended all its energy within the deer. I've culled several hundred pigs using 150 grain .308's, & if pigs are running away after being chest shot, my guess is you are hitting them too far back.
I hope the 180 grain load works for you, but I won't be changing from what's worked for me for the last 25 years or so.

[TX Hunter]

I dont have anything against Coreloct bullets either, Ive have killed lots of game with them over the past several years too, They just didnt work the best for this short carbine.
I will still use them in my longer barreled Rifles.
Quick Question though, When shooting at a Hog, from the side, should I aim for The Shoulder, or Behind the Shoulder, to make a good shot ?

[phil mcwilliam]

I always aim for shoulder , neck or even head shots on pigs. If you aim behind the shoulder you will possibly just clip the lungs & your pig will keep running.

[rickyrick]

I aim for the neck, or very low just behind the leg. The low chest shot may be tricky at some distance. The neck is a fairly large target.

[TX Hunter]

Thanks for the tip Ricky Rick,

[warbirdlover]

I use 150 gr coreloks in my .300 Win Mag for deer and 180 gr for elk. No whitetail or mule deer, elk or black bear have ever gone farther then 10 yards after shot behind the shoulder. They usually drop on the spot. The bullet always goes through and puts a good hole in the animal. Not always alot of blood though. I want the shocking power. Weatherby knew what he was talking about.

The same goes for the 270 Win 130 gr I now use (corelok or ballistic tip Winchester). They go down like a rock.

the .308 and 30-06 I had did not put them down like this. Everything I've ever used (except a .243) has always penetrated (and the .243 would have to with nosler partitions).

[603Country]

I shoot em (deer, pigs, and coyotes) just behind the shoulder. That has always worked just fine, even on a 'godzilla' Boar I shot some 20 years ago (270, with 130 grain Ballistic Tips). I have always felt that the behind the shoulder shot, if you don't put the bullet too far back, gave me a larger kill zone - more of a vertical zone rather than horizontal. That's more forgiving (for me anyway) if you aren't sure of the range. I started doing it that way back when I had that old 35 Remington, which had a trajectory like a mortar round, and I just carried that approach over to my flatter shooting rifles.

[LSnSC]

Looks live you've found a load thet works. I've used an 18.5" barreled Model 7 for years with 150 Speer Mag Tips. They got impossible to find locally, so I switched to Sierra 150 Pro Hunters over Varget or H4895 with very good results on deer and pigs.
If you want to boost you velocity some and have a bullet that will expand and penetrate any hog or deer stem to stern, try the Barnes TTSX 130. I use the TTSX 95's in my 6.8 SPCII. They perform much better than you would think a light bullet at modest velocity should.

[langenc]

Corelokts exploding,really!!

They dont do that for me..

[bobnoffs]

it's the BULLET! i will never shoot another deer with a rem, 150 gr corelock bullet again.
i shot a 200 lb dressed buck this fall quartering at me at 150 yds with a .308. perfect shot placement in ''left front quarter' trailed him 2 hrs saturday, 6 hrs sunday, 5 hrs monday, of us outsmarted him and killed him tues. morning. his shoulder was obviouslt broken, bullet didn't exit. we had a fresh snow and he was hurt bad enough that he would bed every time i quit pushing. he would be where i left off the day before. he was also strong enough that out of 6-8 times i kicked him from his bed i only saw him once.
i don.t know about a 30/30 but i know a .308 ahould have ventilated him left front shoulder to right ham. it never got to a vital organ.
i posted this on another forum and asked for bullet recommendationsfor a better bullet. federal supreme[ or something like that] came up in 165 gr. one hunter said he has shot 30 deer with this load in .308 and never lost one. when i asked how the bullets expanded, did they breakup, his answer was he never shot a deer that the bullet stayed in!
i have shot broadside deer with the remington and that is pretty easy kill for any bullet but i will never carry that load again. i never want to do that to another animal or myself again.
bob noffs
n. wi.

[MOshooter65202]

All bullets are not constructed equally,with this statement I am still a bit confused with the performance of the corelokts? Most reviews of this bullet always seems to get good reviews for hunting thin skinned game?

I personally hunt with 7mm rem mag and use Nosler Partition bullets with nothing but good results,I would try handloading with a better constructed bullet.

Good luck

[GlockedNLoded32]

I would come up with your own load using hornady sst's they are great i use them for my .308 and I also use Hornady Amax as well both 168 grain

[dlb0412]

Remington might be making there bullets cheaper like they do everything else now. Get a bonded bullet that keeps most of its weight. If you want it to exit stay away from sst and ballistic tips. Try 168 grain barnes tipped tripple shock. Your .308 is plenty powerfull for anything in the lower 48. Its not the rifle its the bullet. Good luck.

[TX Hunter]

Well I saw it again, my Son wanted to shoot a Hog so I took him Sunday evening. A big Boar came out and my Son Shot him in the Shoulder at 142 yards (measured with a Bushnell Backtrack) My Sons Rifle is a Savage 110 30 06 his load was Remington Coreloct 180 grain. He hit the Hog , in the shoulder and dust flew from the Hog, and once again no blood trail. I dont understand it because we have had that gun over 20 years and killed several deer and hogs with it and alwayse got a blood trail with it. I saw the impact and know he hit the hog in the shoulder, his 30 06 should have blown chunks at that short distance but it didnt. I wonder if the material in the bullet has changed.

[thallub]

in the shoulder and dust flew from the Hog, and once again no blood trail.

Do not shoot big hogs in the shoulder: Shoot them low just behind the shoulder-heart shot. Hogs usually leave a skimpy blood trail at best.

[rickyrick]

As I just posted in the other thread, they can scrunch down real low and become almost invisible maybe it hid real close.

[Doyle]

Tallub is right. You are hitting them in the wrong place. Between the thick shield of a boar and the shoulder blades, your bullet is more likely to stick than to pass through. Go for the spot behind the shoulder and you'll get a cleaner kill AND a pass-through.