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View Full Version : OH Drive-Thru Store Owner Shoots Robber (Video)


Bartholomew Roberts
February 16, 2012, 04:59 PM
In Ohio, the owner of a drive-thru store noticed one of his clerk's being robbed via the monitor. He grabbed a handgun and using the corner of an aisle in the store as cover, engaged the two robbers (one armed with a handgun and one armed with a bottle of champagne used as a club).

The robber who was armed fired back at almost exactly the same time and then charged at and past the store owner shooting the entire way - in fact, the security video has good enough resolution that you can see the store owner came within inches of getting ventilated as the robber ran by him at point blank but it struck a bottle of soda instead.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Drive-Thru-Owner-Shoots-Guy-Who-Tried-To-Rob-Store/MwifoKVaPkq4gdQB-fkrDA.cspx

I thought this would be a good discussion for Tactics and Training because any time you have video of the shooting it lets you get a better idea of what went on and see places where tactics could be improved.

1. Good on the store owner for using cover/concealment. It may have made the difference in whether he got shot or not in this fight.

2. The robber got shot four times with a centerfire handgun (chest, abdomen, leg and arm), yet looking at the video, you wouldn't even know that the store owner hit him. Anybody who thinks that their firearm is a death ray is going to be surprised at the way the robber not only moves very quickly; but keeps moving and shoots back. They later found him collapsed about a block away from the store; but during the confrontation on video, he shows no signs he has been hit repeatedly.

BarryLee
February 16, 2012, 05:14 PM
Excellent point about someone being shot not going down right away even a cursory study of shootings will show this is more the norm than not. Also, I noted that the owner could be seen actually taking time to aim while the robber just pointed in a general direction and fired.

OldMarksman
February 16, 2012, 05:46 PM
Agree on both 1 and 2.

aarondhgraham
February 16, 2012, 05:48 PM
Caliber, bullet type, etc.

Aarond

wildturkey76209
February 16, 2012, 06:21 PM
Yeah that might make some folks re-think that .25 auto or .380 they wanted to carry because it was easy to shoot...

I would be interested to know what the store owner was shooting.

wayneinFL
February 16, 2012, 08:40 PM
Took a second to yell "freeze" and decide to shoot. Wonder how much of a difference that made...

Gbro
February 16, 2012, 09:21 PM
He used cover? 3-3rd's of his body was visible from what I see.
I have never seen such a store as this, drive through?
I don't even use the drive through at a fast food joint.
The store owner is lucky he wasn't hit! and he did stand his ground and shot from a decent stance. He has had training of some kind.
4 hits is truly the result of a good stance.

Willie Lowman
February 16, 2012, 09:58 PM
He used cover? 3-3rd's of his body was visible from what I see.

Yeah, that wasn't cover. It wasn't even concealment.

BleedinPurple
February 17, 2012, 04:23 PM
needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...

DasGuy
February 17, 2012, 04:37 PM
^ and you've been in how many shoot outs?

ckpj99
February 17, 2012, 05:51 PM
Saying he wasn't covered is bit like saying you got in an accident when your wheel skidding on a wet road for a second. The bottom line is that he didn't get shot, and from what I can tell he had some cover when he engaged the subject.

What is amazing about this video is that he's a rock. He just keeps on the guy even as he's charging at him.

And this actual event happened about 10 minutes from where I live. I've even been through that drive-thru. Pretty crazy.

Drive-Thrus are pretty common in Ohio. They sell beer, wine, soda and candy. You drive into like a covered hanger-like building. Tell the guy what you want. Sometimes they'll even load the case of Pepsi or Bud Light into your trunk for you. You pay and drive off.

C0untZer0
February 17, 2012, 06:19 PM
Yelling "freeze" is bad tactics.

There's no reason to be yelling "Freeze" or "Drop it!" But especially not so in this case, Ozier already fired a shot at the clerk before the owner emerged from the back room.

IMO, if a prior robbery motivated me to upgrade the video surveilance, it would also motivate me to get a shotgun and a bullet-proof vest and keep them in the back room.

SIGSHR
February 17, 2012, 06:50 PM
I would like to see the toxicology tests on the targ...er, perpetrator, it's no secret that the widespread use of controlled substances has made the question of handgun ammunition effectiveness more complicated.
The calibers that ARE "death rays"-44 Magnum, 454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .500 S&W, etc. are too much for most of us mere mortals to handle. Bill Jordan said of the 44 Magnum that while it was unlikely that anyone clobbered with this cannon would need a follow up shot the possibility that he might have an accomplice must not be overlooked. And hits with minor calibers hurt a lot more than misses with majors.

Nnobby45
February 17, 2012, 06:53 PM
Yelling "freeze" is bad tactics.


It's worse than that. It's pure Hollywood horse @$%@.

Of course, now, most of America believes that, when you're confronted by an assailant with a gun in his hand, you have to say "freeze" first. I guess then you each have your guns pointed at each other and talk the other guy into dropping his weapon.

"Drop it!" "No, you drop yours or I'll shoot!" "Oh yeah, if you do that, you die, too!"

Rather nauseating, isn't it?

youngunz4life
February 17, 2012, 07:25 PM
removed...answer found in article

Mello2u
February 17, 2012, 08:56 PM
I would be upgrading to a "social shotgun" in my office if I were that clerk.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 17, 2012, 09:07 PM
It is also worth noting that the original owner of this drive-thru was killed in a robbery according to the article.

Willie Lowman
February 17, 2012, 09:45 PM
Saying he wasn't covered is bit like saying you got in an accident when your wheel skidding on a wet road for a second. The bottom line is that he didn't get shot, and from what I can tell he had some cover when he engaged the subject.


What are you taking about? Skidding on a wet road? Your comparison makes no sense.

I said he wasn't in cover because he wasn't using cover. The only part of him that was behind "cover" was his right leg.

Discern
February 17, 2012, 10:26 PM
I am thankful that everything turned out okay for the owner and the clerk.

As stated, it appears the store owner had some type of training in the past. Those who say the store owner should have a shotgun may not have all the facts. Not all ranges allow shotguns, and you need to have a firearm with which you are familiar and can practice shooting. It is also hard to do work in different parts of the store while carrying a shotgun around with you. If he leaves the shotgun while working in another area of the store, the criminals might get access to the shotgun. Have the firearm with you, and they will have to overpower you to get control of your firearm.

JohnKSa
February 17, 2012, 11:09 PM
needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...4 hits on a moving target (2 of them torso hits) while being shot at from close range is pretty good shooting. It's not very realistic to expect to do much better than that in a dynamic, real-world situation.

jimbob86
February 17, 2012, 11:39 PM
needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...

There are plenty of reasons:

1) Handguns are underpowered. If they had enough power to deliver sufficient energy to incapacitate someone immediately, they'd need a stock to be controllable, and then they would not be a handgun anymore, would they?

2) That was a "two way range": You stand there and take the time for a precise shot, and you'll get shot.

3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon .....

My suggestions:

1) A pistol is a defensive weapon. It's what you have with you all the time. In this situation, the store owner was going on offense, from his office. He should have taken a 12 guage pump gun to confront these goblins.

2) "Freeze!"???? I would not. Ok, if you want to say it, but if the goblin twitches, dust him with the 12 ..... and I doubt he will return fire after catching a load of buckshot at converasational distance.

C0untZer0
February 17, 2012, 11:45 PM
^ Pretty much agree except I think most semi-auto shotguns are pretty reliable now and a better choice than pumps.

I can't see on the video where the owner shot... some of those shots must have been taken while the BG was charging towards him guns blazing...

That's true grit !

Instead of saying "Freeze !" He should have yelled "Fill your hand you son of a bitch !!!"

jimbob86
February 18, 2012, 12:04 AM
He should have yelled "Fill your hand you son of a bitch !!!"

Good idea- that would have confused the man, as his hand was already full of gun, and bought a second or two while the guy puzzled it out!

Nnobby45
February 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
I would be upgrading to a "social shotgun" in my office if I were that clerk.


Me too. Along with a good pistol loaded, as per my preference, with HST or DPX.

Nnobby45
February 18, 2012, 12:47 AM
4 hits on a moving target (2 of them torso hits) while being shot at from close range is pretty good shooting. It's not very realistic to expect to do much better than that in a dynamic, real-world situation.


I agree. No way to tell, but those hits may very well have saved his life by preventing Bubba from unleashing any effective fire. My only criticism is making himself vulnerable by letting Bubba take the initiative.

OldMarksman
February 18, 2012, 10:15 AM
Posted by BleedinPurple: needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...That indicates two all too common misconceptions:


That 'shot placement' of the kind that one sees at a target range is at all achievable in a defensive encounter involving the need to get several shots into a fast moving target very rapidly at a rate of several shots per second. A session of high performance defensive pistol training with experienced instructors will correct that misconception even without someone shooting at the defender.
That pistol bullets should be expected to incapacitate effectively and rapidly. That idea may come from seeing too much television, or from confusing the violence of the flash and the boom and commotion in the shooter's hand with the likely effect on a human target.


As Bartholomew Roberts said, "Anybody who thinks that their firearm is a death ray is going to be surprised at the way the robber not only moves very quickly; but keeps moving and shoots back. They later found him collapsed about a block away from the store; but during the confrontation on video, he shows no signs he has been hit repeatedly".

Again, some good training will likely correct some false expectations.

jrothWA
February 18, 2012, 10:25 AM
most likely a auto loading 20ga??

Only suggestion would be to isolate the cashier position as a refuge.

He survived but was lucky.

Nnobby45
February 18, 2012, 09:13 PM
Posted by BleedinPurple: needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...



Hey, Purpleman, didn't you see the video?

The target was sprinting with his weapon (which he also fired) pointed at the store owner. The good guy put two rds. into his torso using a shooting technique that was reasonably sound under the circumstances.

If you'd ever seen participants using simunitions dancing, dodging, and ducking, and forgetting to shoot back (because they're anticipating being hit by non lethal ammo?, then you might give the store owner, who stood his ground in the face of real bullets, a little break here.

His error was tactical, since he didn't shoot when Bubba was standing there with a gun in his hand representing all the threat (if not more) necessary for the use of deadly force.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:

Deaf Smith
February 18, 2012, 10:56 PM
"Ozier suffered four gunshot wounds to his chest, abdomen, leg and arm."

Not bad shooting in my book. I bet he jerked the first shot low, into the leg.. and notice Hahn used both hands to shoot.

Also notice he did not 'move and shoot' while the bad guy DID 'move and shoot' and missed while getting hit four times!

So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.

Sadly as it says later, "This is the same store where the original owner was killed by a robber in 1994. " The area must be prone to robberies.

Deaf

Bartholomew Roberts
February 19, 2012, 12:32 PM
So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.

I think HOW you move is relevant. Had the robber moved to cover, he might not have been shot four times. As it was, the robber did not seek cover and chose to close the distance while presenting a zero deflection target. Probably not the best choice of moving and shooting available to him.

manta49
February 19, 2012, 12:45 PM
jimbob86. Quote.


3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon .....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would the same go for .40 .45 ect. ?

Pbearperry
February 19, 2012, 01:10 PM
I am glad the store owner made out ok,however someone has to explain better tactics.Too much of his body was needlessly exposed.

manta49
February 19, 2012, 01:46 PM
Is the incident not a good argument for high cap mags. Stopping to reload in a situation like that would be fatal.

Old Grump
February 19, 2012, 05:08 PM
Is the incident not a good argument for high cap mags. Stopping to reload in a situation like that would be fatal. Bigger heavier bullets might make a difference too, then you wouldn't need so many of them. As it was that store owner was cool and had a higher hit percentage than most people do in a shootout. Just because the target is close doesn't mean you can pinpoint your shots because it all happens right now.

Only time I ever saw a long drawn out gun fight was on TV. The one in Olongapo happened 50' from me and by the time I registered shots being fired it was over. In Chicago it was the same thing. 3 shots fired one man down and the other long gone from the scene by the time we all showed by the guy who was down. In Washington DC I never saw the shooter, just heard 3 shots and then the streets were empty and I do mean empty. Never saw a cop, don't know if anybody even called them. 5 minutes later street traffic was back to normal and nobody even mentioned the shots. So much for gun free cities.

Deaf Smith
February 19, 2012, 06:08 PM
Roberts,

It was not a zero deflection shot. It was a 70 to 90 degree deflection (right angles) shot.

And that is the hardest way to shoot at someone.

His real fault was trying to shoot (and just miss) while running by the attendant. And of course shooting one handed while moving is difficult at best, and really hard when you are getting hit from stem to stern in the process.

Deaf

jimbob86
February 19, 2012, 06:33 PM
jimbob86. Quote.


3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon .....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would the same go for .40 .45 ect. ?

Low velocity, FMJ bullets are the worst choice in any caliber ..... but a bigger bullet of poor design would be better than a smaller one of the same design, if that's what you are asking.

More energy and a bigger wound diameter would stop an assailant quicker than less energy and a smaller wound diameter, placement being equal.

Hollow points at max velocities are better than FMJ at minimum..... but it's still a handgun and therefore underpowered.

youngunz4life
February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM
4 hits on a moving target (2 of them torso hits) while being shot at from close range is pretty good shooting. It's not very realistic to expect to do much better than that in a dynamic, real-world situation.

I agree. Also, this BG picked a bad time to use his testosterone to decide his actions. It isn't a coincidence in my book that the BG missed all of his shots while being hit 4 times. I also have to give credit to the man for coming to the defense of his friend, partner, and/or employee. He put his life on the line for another human being(not a store or money but another human being). Of course there is no way to know what would've happened if he stayed in the back. I bet he knew some people where that ended bad not to mention what happened to another employee at the same store in the early 1990's though.

MTT TL
February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM
Someone claiming to be cousin to one of the thugs is commenting on the article and telling the world about the injustice of it all. Good times.

Noteworthy that the guy who killed the previous owner was convicted and sentenced to death in 1994. He is still on death row.

I think this result is more satisfactory. Certainly cheaper and better.

youngunz4life
February 19, 2012, 09:24 PM
good point ^

it is bothersome also if this nitwit isn't charged with attempted murder! we all know what would've happened if that 'soda' shot had terminated the life of the good guy...

C0untZer0
February 19, 2012, 09:50 PM
I do think its important that states pass laws that forbid the assailants and or their families from filing a civil suit when there is a lawful DGU.

No matter how brutal the assailants are, no matter what heinous crimes they committed in the past or were in the process of committing, there is always someone who will get on the evening news and wail and cry "mah baby ! He shot mah baby !" Claims of vigilantism. Friends and relatives of the assailants will get on TV and claim he was gunned down in cold blood, and of the defender they will say “they took matters into their own hands.”

I don’t think it’s good tactics to yell “freeze” And in this case where the store owner did just that and everything is on tape, it didn’t stop the relatives of the assailants from starting their chirping anyway… all he did was put himself at risk.

Nnobby45
February 19, 2012, 11:45 PM
So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.

Don't think he was doing that. He was making for the door and just popped of a shot (don't know how many) as he was completely focused on escape. I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.:cool:

At one time moving while shooting was all the rage in shooting courses. Not so much now.

I do have to admit that Gabe Suarez does an impressive job shooting on the move, but he's moving laterally. With a little practice, you can keep the gun on target before you go buy it, while you're going by, and after you've gone by. Two hands from left to right, and one handed right to left.

Moving right at the target can be very aggressive and extremely intimidating. It might have it's applications, though moving toward incoming fire isn't one of them!:D

Nnobby45
February 20, 2012, 12:00 AM
it is bothersome also if this nitwit isn't charged with attempted murder! we all know what would've happened if that 'soda' shot had terminated the life of the good guy...


"But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client was just trying to get out the door and was being shot at. He fired to protect his life."

Anybody else see that one coming?:cool:

C0untZer0
February 20, 2012, 12:23 AM
No one talked about the tactics of the robber Michael Ozier. Rushing at his opponent gun blazing didn't seem to work out too well for him.

I'm definately glad that the clerk and the store owner Wes Hahn were uninjured. Aside from putting his hands up and surrendering, it probably would have been better for Ozier to try to seek concealment from which to fire from. Maybe there really isn't any cover in a narrow store like that. It seems to me that the bullets were going to zip right through coolers, six packs of beer and displays of beef jerky. But charging right at Hahn didn't work so well, he's lucky to be alive.

Is Hahn standing in the doorway to his back office?

Maybe another tactic would have been to not completly leave his office, he would have at least have had a door jam to be partially behind.

youngunz4life
February 20, 2012, 01:36 AM
Don't think he was doing that. He was making for the door and just popped of a shot (don't know how many) as he was completely focused on escape. I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.

In my opinion and/or take of the video, it seemed that the bad guy purposely took a shot as he was directly passing the good guy while in very close proximity.

FrankenMauser
February 20, 2012, 01:59 AM
needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...

Not only did he score 4 hits on a moving target, but they were decent hits. I think he did quite well.


Not to mention....
You never know what, exactly, will be incapacitating.
Based on my experience with big game, small game, upland game, and any other living creatures I've shot; I can tell you that every animal is different. By "every animal", I mean each individual, not just each species.

Sometimes, the refusal to die is due to physiology. Other times, it's just that that particular individual has an incredible amount of fight left in them.

There is no guarantee that ANY shot will be effective.
Even head shots can fail.
Center of Mass? Hah! That's like shooting at the general area of the front end of a car, and thinking that a single shot can stop the engine instantly. You might get lucky; but, generally, it just doesn't happen.

MTT TL
February 20, 2012, 08:23 AM
I heartily agree with the above poster. I have noticed that when someone is shoot who is not expecting it they seem to become incapacitated much faster than someone who is expecting it, or amped up for some other reason.

4 for 4 on a moving target is as good as it gets. We would all like the bad guy to stop as soon as possible but that might be the best you can hope for.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 20, 2012, 08:56 AM
Roberts,

It was not a zero deflection shot. It was a 70 to 90 degree deflection (right angles) shot.

The robber was charging down a long aisle towards the store owner standing at the side on the end of the aisle. Initially, that is going to be a very low deflection shot, meaning that movement won't help you much. As he gets closer, the deflection increases but the distance decreases. As moving and shooting goes, I think there was probably more useful choices the robber could have made tactically.

However, if I had decided I was going to run right at and then past the storeowner towards that exit while he shot at me, I would definitely be moving and shooting.

Dennis6474
February 20, 2012, 08:59 AM
Frank has it right. My son shot two deer this year with a 30.06 and hit both of them in exactly the same spot. Both weighed within 5 lbs of each other were the same weight and age. One ran 20 feet and the other ran 400 yards.

Hiker 1
February 20, 2012, 09:58 AM
This is reality. It doesn't always work out the way it does at IDPA when lives aren't at stake and no one is shooting back.

Deaf Smith
February 20, 2012, 07:40 PM
I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.

Hard to focus on shooting after being shot in leg, abdomen, and chest.

And that's the main part. FOF uses simulation guns (and I've been in TWO FOF classes were we used them.) But simulation guns don't feel like 9mm slugs. Do note, while I've been shot with simulation guns and airspofts, I've never been shot with a 9mm! but I still would rather be shot with the simulations!!!

I have no doubt the accurate incoming fire made a big difference in the bad guys return fire.


This is reality. It doesn't always work out the way it does at IDPA when lives aren't at stake and no one is shooting back.

Exactly. Or in FOF.

Deaf

Discern
February 20, 2012, 10:56 PM
The store owner did better than most LEO in a a shootout. IMO he did well under the circumstances. He may not have done everything perfect tactically. However, he survived; the employee survived; and the owner had a very good hit ratio. When you take into account that both thugs were arrested, it is even better.

I agree there should be laws to protect innocent victims like this from a civil lawsuit. Common sense should prevail, but it would be better if a civil lawsuit was not even allowed. The thug did not have to go for the front door. How about using the emergency exit or the door in which they broke into the store?

Murdock
February 25, 2012, 05:08 PM
Yelling "freeze" is bad tactics.

There's no reason to be yelling "Freeze" or "Drop it!" But especially not so in this case, Ozier already fired a shot at the clerk before the owner emerged from the back room.

First, Yelling "FREEZE!" or just a simple command like "STOP!" at the beginning of an engagement may not be tactically significant but it is superb legal strategy. Clint Smith teaches this a Thunder Ranch, and some people think he's a pretty smart guy. Such a tactic costs nothing in time or energy if one is engaging and potentially could save one from becoming an innocent victim of the legal system.

Second, it appears that the store owner ceased fire when it became clear that the BG was departing. Maybe he was out of ammo, or just ducking, but he didn't try to nail the guy as he was exiting. Smart.

Overall the store owner shot well and otherwise behaved like a responsible citizen who expected his every action to appear on video. So should we all.

Video surveillance is everywhere and every grammar school child has a cell phone that takes videos.;)

It would be highly instructive to learn what training/experience the store owner had.

IMO, if a prior robbery motivated me to upgrade the video surveillance, it would also motivate me to get a shotgun and a bullet-proof vest and keep them in the back room.

The shotgun is a very good idea, as long as it is instantly available and secure from unauthorized hands. The vest in the back room? If it isn't already on your body when the poop arcs toward the blower it's wasted money.

C0untZer0
February 25, 2012, 11:15 PM
The vest in the back room? If it isn't already on your body when the poop arcs toward the blower it's wasted money.

The owner took some time watching the robbery unfold and he called 911 before he emerged from the back office, that's more than enough time to throw a vest on.

If you have the advantage of being concealed but are able to view the assailants, that's a huge advantage, especially in terms of time to prepare, mental attitude, advantage of surprise....

If i had a backroom with video, i'd definately have a vest back there too.

AndersonG22
February 26, 2012, 12:44 AM
If i had a backroom with video, i'd definately have a vest and shotgun back there too.

FTFY

lawnboy
February 26, 2012, 01:56 AM
Instead of saying "Freeze !" He should have yelled "Fill your hand you son of a bitch !!!"

I've always been partial to "Skin that smokewagon and see what happens".