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TheGoldenState
February 10, 2012, 06:52 PM
Here a guy is practicing his quick draw shooting, and negligently shoots himself in the leg.

It is a reminder to be careful when practicing your quickdraw. And it is also a reminder to be careful with the type of holster you use.

Apparently he was using a "mechanism-holster" where he needs to disengage a thumb and index safety for the gun to be released. I have never heard of a holster like that, but i'm not sure i'd go with one that like.

They say every motorcycle rider goes down at some point.

Video shows the shooting, dialogue from the guy, and post shooting injury pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

ScottRiqui
February 10, 2012, 07:03 PM
I've used holsters like that, but I wouldn't practice "quick draws" out of them. Here's an example of a Serpa "Level III retention holster" with a thumb release and index finger release:

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-1175-IMG6_L.jpeg

My last squadron used them, but when we were qualifying at the pistol range and firing sequences were timed, we left the thumb break disengaged and just used the index finger catch to release the pistol.

TheGoldenState
February 10, 2012, 07:06 PM
Thanks for the info. Unique holster, still not sure I like the idea.



My last squadron used them, but when we were qualifying at the pistol range and firing sequences were timed, we left the thumb break disengaged and just used the index finger catch to release the pistol.

Unfortunately that was the one that got him.

kinggabby
February 10, 2012, 07:09 PM
I am pretty sure there is a post about this guy here somewhere. I know I saw it several months ago. Need to warn people about the language. He is lucky it was not worse that what it was .

Jeremiah/Az
February 10, 2012, 07:20 PM
I saw that video on TV a while back. "The Worlds Dumbest" I think it was.

Willie Lowman
February 10, 2012, 07:30 PM
Here a guy is practicing his quick draw shooting, and negligently shoots himself in the leg.

Old news is old news. Did you just catch this on a rerun of Tosh.0?

Tex posted a link to that video on here himself just after he got out of the hospital from that injury.

But thanks for noticing that Serpa holsters are a bad idea.

TheGoldenState
February 10, 2012, 07:49 PM
Old news is old news. Did you just catch this on a rerun of Tosh.0?


Hey it happens.

I ran across it and shared it.

And no, I haven't yet.

BlackFeather
February 10, 2012, 08:06 PM
I hate that draw and rock back, head cover tactic. The holster in this case seems to be a main issue, but he also wasn't taking his time on the draw, in my opinion. He could have drawn quickly without shooting himself had he gone through the steps better, instead of mashing them up. At least he didn't blow out his knee...

C0untZer0
February 10, 2012, 08:12 PM
My main point was that training with multiple weapons and equipment causes confused muscle memory and decreases your proficiency with any single weapon system.

Previous thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923

I also didn't like how he just sort of said "Negligent discharges happen".

Well no Tex, they don't "just happen".

Double Naught Spy
February 10, 2012, 08:51 PM
Well no Tex, they don't "just happen".

Yeah, I think he was both trying to man up and admit that it was an ND and to let us learn from it, but at the same time not actually taking responsibility for the ND when he said that they just happen.

You are right. They don't "just happen" and more than people randomly sticking forks in their eyes. He actively made the gun ND.

hangglider
February 10, 2012, 11:13 PM
Having read this thread and the other earlier ones I'm struck by what I believe the victim was saying and the way I believe it was taken by most readers. I'm sure my opinion will add to the growing list of warnings and threat e-mails I've managed to accrue in the short time I've been here. :)

I've been a glider pilot for almost 30 years, and it is almost a "golden rule" that when accidents happen in aviation it is almost always attributable to pilot error. The pilot error is often not simply a single wrong choice that causes a screw-up--but sometimes a subtle series of poor choices that can lead to a catastrophic outcome. We use pre-flight check-lists for safety and pilots will live by these. But every now and then, a one-in-a-million event might occur that falls outside the parameters of the standard pre-flight checklist (I know this from first hand experience). In a way, the pilot who religiously adheres to his tried-and-true pre-flight list may possibly be at risk for not being able to "foresee" possible negative outcomes for these rare events.

It is with this backdrop of experience that I believe I understand what the victim of self-shooting is saying in the video. I don't believe he's really saying a negligent discharge can happen to anyone--he fesses up to all responsibility in the video--I believe what he's really saying is that unforeseen consequences can arise from procedures or events that fall outside the norm.

You may comfort yourself in blaming him and telling yourself that this kind of thing could never happen to you (I've seen the same self-denial phenomenon among pilots). I've also seen some of the best of the expert pilots get killed and almost killed. Don't limit yourself to thinking it is something that couldn't happen to you.

asbestos suit on!

fivepaknh
February 10, 2012, 11:36 PM
No disagreement here, hangglider? Accidents happen. We're only humans and it CAN happen to any one of us. None of us are above it.

hangglider
February 10, 2012, 11:40 PM
I'm talking about a mindset toward procedures--accidents are end-result consequences/outcomes.

nate45
February 10, 2012, 11:44 PM
Sure it could happen to anyone. Anyone who puts their finger on the trigger and pulls it.

At the end of the day thats what happened, he pulled the trigger and his pistol went off. No real surprises or profound lessons there.

C0untZer0
February 10, 2012, 11:59 PM
IMO part of what bugs me about his second video is that he doesn't place blame on anything, he doesn't blame the holster, he doesn't blame his training, he never really gets to the bottom of why it happened, he never gets to the root cause, and never comes up with any information to the viewer on what he is going to do differently. Its like he thinks he's doing a public service by saying "Negligent Discharges happen."

Even if he was wrong or people disagreed with him, if he would have said something like "I don't think it's a good idea for me to train with two somewhat similar holsters that are different in significant enough ways that can lead to my finger slipping into the trigger gaurd instead of disengaging the holster." That might have been controversial - but I'd have more respect for him, at least he's identified something and made a change. If he would have said that he feels he needs to practice a hundred slow draws with snap caps before moving to live ammo, that would have been something, if he would have said, "I'm not going to practice the fast draw anymore", or "I'm never gonna use that brand of holster", whatever - that would have been something.

I really don't recall one concrete thing that he is going to change that will ensure that this doesn't happen to him again.

Double Naught Spy
February 11, 2012, 01:02 AM
I don't believe he's really saying a negligent discharge can happen to anyone--he fesses up to all responsibility in the video--I believe what he's really saying is that unforeseen consequences can arise from procedures or events that fall outside the norm.

I take it that you aren't very familiar with TG and his videos. TG's procedures/events of the video weren't outside the norm for him. It isn't unusual for him to work with multiple types of gear. He screwed up doing what he frequently does.

You may comfort yourself in blaming him and telling yourself that this kind of thing could never happen to you (I've seen the same self-denial phenomenon among pilots). I've also seen some of the best of the expert pilots get killed and almost killed. Don't limit yourself to thinking it is something that couldn't happen to you.

No disagreement here, hangglider? Accidents happen. We're only humans and it CAN happen to any one of us. None of us are above it.

Nobody here has said that this could not happen to them.

kraigwy
February 11, 2012, 01:31 AM
I don't care what holster you use, if you follow the four simple firearms safety rules you ain't gonna shoot yourself in the butt.

I have a Serpa from my Beretta and my 642. To use the holster your trigger finger lays alone side the release butto, and as you draw the pistol/revolver your trigger finger slides out and falls on the frame above the trigger guard.

To screw up, you have to cock your finger and push it in the trigger guard.

Its the shooter that screws up, can't blame the equipment.


Now as a side note. when I want to set around the house practicing my quick draw, I have a Beretta and J fame "blue gun", a place training gun.

You can use it to train yourself to not put the finger in the trigger if that is a problem for you.

hangglider
February 11, 2012, 05:45 AM
True naught2--I'm not familiar with TG and his videos. towards the end he says "I consider myself a safe and responsible gun owner" and I suppose that consensus here is that's not true.

I'm a relative beginner Kraig--so I'm not familiar with this guy's habits or the merits of the holster. I assume what people mean by "if he followed the rules" they mean keeping the finger outside the guard and off the trigger until sight on target that shooter is prepared to destroy.

If I understand the mechanics of this type of holster correctly (not saying I do), it looks like you can press a secondary trigger guard release with the same finger you shoot with in order to complete the draw. In my inexperienced armchair opinion, this is an inherent accident waiting to happen--regardless of how good or experienced you are.

My take-away from this is if something like this can happen under "controlled practice" I personally would factor in a "risk multiplier" for "real-world elevated-stress draw."

rightside
February 11, 2012, 08:38 AM
I like it when he says " After the accident , my training kicked in and I called my Momma, then the paramedics":D

JimPage
February 11, 2012, 09:13 AM
Hanglider:

I totally agree that being procedure bound causes accidents at times. I was a fighter pilot for years and all that time all the pilots I knew and the commands I was in stressed situation awareness (both the situation around you and the aircraft situation). Procedure will not solve every problem.

Unfortunately I was transferred to SAC (B-52) coming out of SEA. SAC is (was, anyway, it was decades ago) procedure bound. No situation anlysis allowed. I would ask why we did certain things and the only answer given was that "CEG will bust you if you don't." No reason, no aircraft situational analysis, etc. I am away to two B-52s that were lost because of lack of pilot situation analysis, one of them directly caused by blindly following checklist procedure. That's why fighter pilots dreaded going to SAC. Thinking was not allowed.

kraigwy
February 11, 2012, 09:38 AM
If I understand the mechanics of this type of holster correctly (not saying I do), it looks like you can press a secondary trigger guard release with the same finger you shoot with in order to complete the draw. In my inexperienced armchair opinion, this is an inherent accident waiting to happen--regardless of how good or experienced you are.

No Sir:

I will describe again how the Serpa works. Anytime one draws his pistol/revolver the trigger finger is normally extended, pointing parallel with the barrel. When the pistol/revolver is drawn from the holster, the finger naturally falls along the frame above the trigger guard. It's still straight.

When drawing from the Serpa, the finger slides over a "bump" which contained the release allowing the pistol/revolver to be removed from the holster.

After the finger slides over this release, it then falls flat against the side of the holster, remaining straight. As the pistol/revolver comes out of the holster the finger falls (straight) along the side of the pistol/revolver above the trigger guard along the frame, (just under the cylinder of a revolver).

The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.

The Serpa is no different then any other holster (that covers the trigger guard). Such holsters will not allow you to put your finger in the trigger guard until the pistol/revolver is removed.

And, again, you finger is going to naturally be straight as you grip the pistol/revolver and remain so until the pistol/revolver clears the holster

I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.

If the gun goes off while drawing, its the shooters fault, not the holster.

People blame the equipment simply because they aren't man enough to admit their own mistakes.

jhenry
February 11, 2012, 09:50 AM
It has always been so with SAC. It is my opinion that the blind adherence to procedure in that command is directly correlated to the nukes and the need for very strict, no deviation, behavior. The SAC mindset permeates all levels and duties. I found that most folks were happy to escape once they found out they could think and make decisions elsewhere.

As to the Serpa, I use one quite a bit, as do many if not most of my coworkers. The way to avoid mishap is to be aware and to train yourself to lay your finger straight and flat along the holster just as kraigwy states.

hangglider
February 11, 2012, 12:20 PM
OK--for my information--not disagreeing with anyone--it looks to me like there is a release of some sort on the face of the holster covering the trigger guard area. I assume this requires pressure of some sort to release, and this is sometimes, maybe all the time, with the same shooting finger.

Speaking strictly for myself, I think the probability is high FOR ME in the heat of a stress draw I might continue whatever pressure/movement it takes to actuate that release thereby putting myself at a greater chance of AD/ND. This may seem like a stupid spaz action to some--but to me it seems like an inherent risk, at least for me. I do not have confidence in my own skills that I would be able to reliably prevent an AD/ND in a high-stress draw given the finger/hand mechanics as I understand them. I readily admit I have zero familiarity with this type of holster.

TheNocturnus
February 11, 2012, 12:30 PM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Mello2u
February 11, 2012, 12:43 PM
This video demonstrates that it is a poor (perhaps unsafe unless you train exclusively which this one type of system) design to have a safety release which requires the trigger finger to contract to release the pistol from the holster. This led to the guy in the video to continue (or again) to contract his trigger finger at an inappropriate time, which meant he pressed the trigger at the wrong time, which meant he discharged the pistol at the wrong time.

He was "pushing" himself to see how fast he could go. This reduces the margin of error. His mind was set to expect one set of conditions (erroneously) when a different set actually existed. He states that he forgot which holster he was using. He used the manipulations for the 511 thumb retention system when he was actually using the Serpa holster which had a index finger retention system.

At the least this is a cautionary tail about changing equipment.

Venom1956
February 11, 2012, 01:49 PM
Well in the video he states he was using a kimber... that could be a problem right there? :p

wayneinFL
February 11, 2012, 06:54 PM
The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.

I have several Serpa holsters. I have them for SIG, Glock, and 1911. With the Sig and Glock, they work well for me. I can put my finger straight along the holster, my finger indexes exactly where it is supposed to be, and I can push the button with my finger straight along the frame.

The 1911- I don't know what exactly it is about the shape of the holster. I have to crook my finger and push the button with my fingertip. I think if my fingers were straighter it would work very well. But I have to crook my finger and I decided not to use the holster, because in a hurry I might end up doing just what that guy in the video did.

It's not a problem with the holster. My hand just doesn't fit it.


I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.

I've seen them, but not in a long time. Scary. Some police departments used to use them in the 70's or 80's. There was a steel button inside the trigger guard. I'll see if I can find a picture. A retired cop from NJ I used to shoot with told me they used to keep an empty cartridge case in the bottom of the holster to keep the gun from locking into the retention device.

B.N.Real
February 11, 2012, 06:58 PM
I think every shooter should see this video.

It reminds all of us that being very familiar with your handgun and equipment does'nt guarantee your safety.

This guy shot himself in the leg with a 45acp round and still has a leg.

He should buy a lottery ticket because he's damn lucky to still have a right leg ( as well as still being alive).

I think he deserves thanks for publishing the video and saying it was all his fault this happened.

Double Naught Spy
February 11, 2012, 07:37 PM
Well in the video he states he was using a kimber... that could be a problem right there?

Naw, it just means he had to go to a good bit of extra trouble to screw up sufficiently to shoot himself.

thump_rrr
February 12, 2012, 07:00 AM
I'm a relative newcomer to pistol shooting.
I wanted to get into IPSC last year so I took the 2 day black badge course which is mandatory in Canada to be allowed to draw from a holster at the range.
At the time I only had a 1911 so I purchased a CR Speed race holster which only covers the trigger and has no retention device of any kind.

The holster is made to play games where speed is of the essence.
I then bought an HK P30-L to compete in production division and I bought a Serpa level II for it. In the 6 months I've had this holster practicing for IPSC I've never stuck my finger inside the trigger guard.

Where I do run into problems is when I switch from the 1911 to the HK or vice versa is that I keep messing up my mag releases since the HK uses the trigger finger to release the mag.
Using multiple guns with different controls is azure way to mess up when speed is of the essence.

Tex did the same thing in that video.
He went from using the 511 thumb drive holster with a Glock to using the Serpa with a 1911.
The 1911 has the safety where the 511 thumb drive holster has the retention release mechanism. That combined with a hasty draw from the Serpa caused the ND.

One good way for shooters to increase their proficiency is to try competing in the shooting sports such as IDPA or IPSC where you are under constant scrutiny for such things as having a finger inside the trigger guard before your sights are on the target.

Let's remember blaming a holster for an ND is the same as blaming a gun for killing someone.

Deaf Smith
February 13, 2012, 10:46 PM
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.

It's now slow drawing but doing it fast, so fast your mind does to tell the finger to stop pressing as you pull the gun out of the holster.

Deaf

kraigwy
February 13, 2012, 10:57 PM
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.

It doesn't work that way, slow or fast. There is a spot where you finger hits the release, then you slide the gun out of the holster, as you do that your finger has to leave the release slides along the holster like any other holster.

If you stick your finger in the trigger guard, its not the holsters fault, is because you aren't paying attention.

I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.

I use them in competition that requires qucik draws, never had that problem.

If I was smart enough to make a video, I'd make one post it, showing that its the shooter, not the holster that puts the finger in the trigger guard.

wayneinFL
February 13, 2012, 11:58 PM
I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.

The Serpa for the 1911 makes me do it. Let me try to explain it a little better.

My index finger isn't real straight. It's bent toward my middle finger enough that the rest of my finger is resting on the holster. So I have to bend my finger, like a hook, and push the button with my fingertip only. So my problem with this holster (and it's MY problem not the holster's) is that my finger is bent, pushing pressure toward frame when the gun comes out. I'm just a slip away from getting the finger into the trigger guard.

Again, not an issue with the Serpas I have for my Glocks or my Sig. Those holsters are a little flatter and the button is a little wider. I index my finger along the slide/frame the way I always do and the holster releases, just like it's supposed to.

Gbro
February 14, 2012, 01:09 PM
Never saw the original thread on this so I thank Golden State'er. I see this original was heavily discussed back in July, however some months the computer isn't used as much as other times.
!st of all Tex is to be commended for his candidacy of publishing his mishap.
I am going to go out on a limb and call this an accident! He was doing this at the proper place and with the intention of demonstrating a "Defensive Retention" technique.
I watched the slow motion part of the video 20 or more times and he did NOT crook his finger to the extent most here have claimed. His finger was in line and straight and only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger much like a bump fire when it can discharge a double action revolver if the shooter is not gripping properly and is trying to get control again.
Tex's mistake of disengaging the safety because of the brain fart mix-up with the thumb release vs the index caused the pistol to remain locked into the holster and the release looks to me to have been out of control, with the mind concentrating on low retention, backing away from BG all happening at the same time, NO this was an Accident! and can happen to any of us.
Think of it this way, if that pistol would have released normally and the shot would have gone off low and hit the target frame leg 1 inch above ground, would that have been a Negligent Discharge?
This could happen to any one of us.
And it isn't a "DEAD HORSE" ;)

jimbob86
February 14, 2012, 01:23 PM
Saw this before, and concluded that muscles (as in "muscle memory") don't make decisons very well- ingrained reactions that are appropriate with one system (gun/holster/draw method) can put holes where you don't want them when the system changes.

I have noted that when I change from a DA revolver to a SA auto, I go to yanking on the trigger.... and have stopped spending time and ammo $$$ working on the DA revolvers...... limited resources have reqired me to make decisions, and my SA shooting has gotten better.....

kraigwy
February 14, 2012, 01:41 PM
only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger

If it's "unexpected" its poor training and a violation of the 4 basic rules.

NO this was an Accident!

Accident vs Negligent Discharge??? If you were to separate the two, the only "accident discharge" I've seen was a loaded gun in a fire, where the heat caused a cook off. In the hands of the shooter it's a Negligent Discharge.

"Defensive Retention"

I've taught defensive retention and take aways to LE officers. And still do. (I understand take aways training is coming back, don't know why it was stopped).

In my classes its impossible to have a negligent or accidental discharge be cause I don't use real guns, I use the "blue guns", or training weapons which you can get for just about every gun available. You ain't gonna shoot yourself in the butt with a "blue gun".

GBRO, reading your post shows, even though you try to portray it otherwise, the accident or negligent discharge occurred from lack of training and following the 4 basic rules of firearm safety.

I'm gonna try to make a video (after it warms up and I can get my wife outside) that shows the trigger finger placement on the Serpa holster as you draw the pistol/revolver. If I can figure it out, I'll post the video.

I suggest anyone who is concerned or interested go to a gun shop, Most have a display of Serpas with blue guns or something similar on the counter for us to play with. Try it. you'll see the Serpa doesn't force your finger in the trigger guard, you have to do that your self.

I don't have a Serpa for my 1911s, but I do know how the safety works. You don't disengage the safety on a 1911 until the point you're ready to shoot and I dis-engage mine as I'm lining up on the target, about the same instant my finger goes into the trigger guard.

IrishBluEyes51
February 14, 2012, 01:50 PM
My uncle, a Lt on a local police force at the time, would ride me about gun safety. keep that barrel up, is the safety on, is it loaded... till my eyes would cross. Then he was showing off his quick draw with his peacemaker 45longcolt and shot himself right above his ankle and thru the bottom of his foot. I brought him a gun safety pamphlet in the hosp and he burst out laffing when i came in saying he knew if anyone visited it would be me. famous last words

Practice what you preach and there is no substitute for gun safety
and if you must practice quickdraws practice with a unloaded weapon.:cool:

kraigwy
February 14, 2012, 01:57 PM
if you must practice quickdraws practice with a unloaded weapon

No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".

http://www.blueguns.com/default.asp?

IrishBluEyes51
February 14, 2012, 02:14 PM
No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".

yes Sir.....<grins>

RamItOne
February 14, 2012, 02:38 PM
Another reason why I'm for traditional double action (DA/SA) or DAO for carry. Sorry but if the other guy gets off a shot at me because the 8# trigger pull took too long, then it just wasnt my day.

Edit
2:58 - after the shot went off... my training kicked in.. :D

kraigwy
February 14, 2012, 02:49 PM
I agree with Ram. The heavy double action pull of the revolver adds to safety, especially if you pocket carry and are worried about it going off by bumping something,

How ever while shooting the revolver's heavy double action isn't that much of a hindrance.

I time my shots, getting six shots off as fast as I could to see the difference.

Model 64 1.53
Gold Cup 1.47
Beretta 92 1.42

You'll notice, with six shots the Revolver (M-64) is only .11 seconds slower, and that's with six rounds.

A younger guy with faster reflexes could probably do better then me.

Gbro
February 14, 2012, 06:39 PM
Sir, with the up-most respect I will call the cook off more negligent than what is shown in the video. A firearm left unattended with a loaded chamber is something I always address in my Safety Classes.
I was a Firefighter for 21 years and a great majority of rural house fires had loaded firearms in them. We would asses where the barrel is thought to be pointing and keep that area clear of personnel.
After more than 30 years as an EMT I have seen a few accidental's and many negligent and many criminal discharges. I also believe Mr. Tex has every right to call his accident a negligent discharge if he so chooses. I would myself had this happened to me.
Have you reviewed the video with scrutiny? The manipulation of the safety when he was mistakenly trying to release the thumb drive release is not visible but the manipulation of the Surpa release is done with the trigger finger pointing downward with no curl towards the trigger and again because of the out of time release of the pistol, (Tex pulling his trousers up) the reflex was to increase his grip of the pistol.
Now I have never seen this man draw previously and maybe he has a tendency to finger the trigger before he should and if that's the case I will also say this is a Negligent Discharge. After all this is a Human, not a Machine. ;)

Deaf Smith
February 14, 2012, 10:36 PM
t doesn't work that way, slow or fast. There is a spot where you finger hits the release, then you slide the gun out of the holster, as you do that your finger has to leave the release slides along the holster like any other holster.

Under stress you may very well keep have your finger still applying pressure toward the holster as you draw due to no relaxing the finger (again under pressure of the situation) and as the handgun leaves the holster the finger, still pushing, goes inside the trigger guard and hits the trigger.

Yes, it can be overcome by training, but I suspect that was the problem to begin with.

Deaf

markj
February 16, 2012, 05:31 PM
Yeah, all my guns go off when I pull the trigger.......I just wait till it is on target.....first.....

fivepaknh
February 16, 2012, 09:24 PM
No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".

If a "blue gun" means a gun that is safe to perform non-live fire drills, then it's just another term for an unloaded gun.

kraigwy
February 16, 2012, 10:05 PM
If a "blue gun" means a gun that is safe to perform non-live fire drills, then it's just another term for an unloaded gun.

No a blue gun is just that, a blue gun, or a blue plastic gun that resembles a certain firearm. They're used for training so you don't have to use "unloaded" guns since and gun, whether you think it's unloaded or not, its treated as if it is loaded.

They're used for practice drawing, take aways, and retention.

It's not very smart to preach that all guns are loaded then turn around and use a real gun for such training.

Check out the video in the other post about "serpa's vs trigger fingers" to see what I talk about when I mention "blue guns".

RamItOne
February 17, 2012, 02:56 PM
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg293/ramitone4x4/bluegun.jpg



or red :)


http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg293/ramitone4x4/redgun-1.jpg

Mike1234
February 17, 2012, 04:49 PM
Blue Guns and holsters used for training should have sensors and wireless connection to a PC that trainees are watching training software on. If they make a mistake the sensors should catch it immediately. Oops... caught my mind wandering again...

fivepaknh
February 17, 2012, 05:29 PM
Oh.....those blue guns.....oops......nevermind, carry on.:o

Though, I don't think it's necessary to purchase a blue gun to practice drawing. Unload your weapon, use common sense, and practice away.