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AndersonG22
February 8, 2012, 05:32 PM
What distances should I be practicing SD shooting at? And how big should my groups be before I move back?

I practice at 21' if there's very few people at the range and they agree to let me, when there's a lot of people there the closest distance I can practice at is 25 yards...:(

BTW I have a MKIII 22/45 and a G22, they are my only 2 guns.

g.willikers
February 8, 2012, 05:55 PM
It looks like the distance you can shoot, at that range, is fixed, seven and 25 yds.
If the .22s are going to be your only guns, are they also going to be your defense weapons?
If so, then target sizes should reflect the effectiveness of the .22 - namely head or center of mass, rapidly fired.
3" to 4" diameter targets, at seven yards, should do.
5" to 6" max, at 25 yds.
Longer than these is good, too.
50 yds with a .22, especially a rifle, is not hard, at all.
One of the advantages of the .22 is excellent accuracy and low recoil, allowing very fast multiple shots.
Try these and see.

MTT TL
February 8, 2012, 07:46 PM
I practice at 1, 7, 10, 25 and 100 meters with pistol.

I know of very few people who practice at one yard. This I believe is poor planning. You might think that you can't miss at that range but you can. You need to get used to the idea of shooting at something too close or you might hesitate at the wrong moment.

AndersonG22
February 8, 2012, 08:01 PM
You need to get used to the idea of shooting at something too close or you might hesitate at the wrong moment.

Yes, very true, I will try that next time.

My local public range only has 25 yards and farther, the only time I can practice at closer distances is when there are very few people there.

AndersonG22
February 8, 2012, 08:12 PM
If the .22s are going to be your only guns, are they also going to be your defense weapons?

G22 is short for glock model 22 which is .40 S&W.

kraigwy
February 8, 2012, 09:31 PM
No law says that if you practice at long ranges you have to shoot long ranges in self defence.

Practicing long distance will do wonders to your short distance shooting.

I shoot extended distances with my 642 simple because it forces me to concentrate on fundamentals witch get sloppy shooting short ranges.

Crazy88Fingers
February 8, 2012, 10:39 PM
They say most shootings occur within 7 yards. So go with 15 just to be safe.

Of course the further you can shoot, the better.

g.willikers
February 9, 2012, 10:12 AM
"G22 is short for Glock model 22"
Not always:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/longgun_reviews_waltherg22_031506/

If you want meaningful answers, don't talk in shorthand, it's confusing.

g.willikers
February 9, 2012, 10:28 AM
A quick word on self defense practice at the longer ranges.
Practice at the longer distances just the same as the closer ones.
Not bullseye style.
It's very tempting to want to look good, and hit the center of the target at 25 plus yards, with every shot.
And that alone is good practice, too.
But self defense requires speed as well as accuracy.
And the faster, the better.
Just a thought.

kraigwy
February 9, 2012, 11:53 AM
The thing is, not all shooting is self defense.

I shoot for fun, thousands of rounds a year, but except for the odd rattle snake or critter going after my chickens, I shoot for fun.

Yes I practice at short ranges, and I also practice at long range, not because I think I'm going to have to defend my self at extended distance, but because I SHOOT FOR FUN.

Trying to engage targets at 100 yards requires me to concentrate on my fundamentals (and its fun).

I'm not saying I can even hit the target 100% of the time with my 642, I can't, no where close. But its still fun trying.

But besides being fun, it does help with my fundamentals. After a session of extended range shooting, my close, normal snub nose revolver shooting distances improves immensely.

It's not fun setting at 7 yards and tearing the center out of a silhouette target, nor do I learn anything.

The exception is improving my speed and presentation, that's fun too.

I recommend every one try their pistols/revolvers at 50 or even 100 yards. You'll enjoy it and probably will learn something.

g.willikers
February 9, 2012, 01:02 PM
No doubt long distance practice is beneficial, but the subject of the thread is:
"What distances should I be practicing SD shooting at?"

Old Grump
February 9, 2012, 01:34 PM
No doubt long distance practice is beneficial, but the subject of the thread is:
"What distances should I be practicing SD shooting at?" I'm going to throw another twist at you more important than the range and that is how you shoot. I drill at various ranges from 8 yards to 110 yards because that is how my range is set up. The important thing is how you shoot and it should be mixed up with standing, kneeling, sitting and prone. Some exercises should be strong hand, weak hand and two hand. slow fire and rapid fire, shoot from a chair and shoot from behind a barricade. I know that's hard to do on a public range but if the range isn't crowded and you talk to the range master you might get some of those drills in. If nothing else get the strong, weak and two hand drills in, you never know when the flag goes up what hand may be available to you due to injury or some kind of encumbrance or the position you are in.

AndersonG22
February 9, 2012, 01:43 PM
I'm going to throw another twist at you more important than the range and that is how you shoot. I drill at various ranges from 8 yards to 110 yards because that is how my range is set up. The important thing is how you shoot and it should be mixed up with standing, kneeling, sitting and prone. Some exercises should be strong hand, weak hand and two hand. slow fire and rapid fire, shoot from a chair and shoot from behind a barricade. I know that's hard to do on a public range but if the range isn't crowded and you talk to the range master you might get some of those drills in. If nothing else get the strong, weak and two hand drills in, you never know when the flag goes up what hand may be available to you due to injury or some kind of encumbrance or the position you are in.

I'm really new to shooting, only 150 rounds ago I learned how to control recoil. I went from just pointing and shooting to trying to control that B*#*% and get the sights back on target pretty fast.

At 21' I can shoot about a 5 inch group pretty fast( with my glock 22 .40 cal), how tight do ya think it should be before moving back?

And while I can control the gun during recoil I think I can save a lot of time if I could line the sights up a lot faster. I will practice with the .22 for now but sometime in the future I might get a 40-9 conversion so I can practice with a little more recoil.

JerryM
February 9, 2012, 01:44 PM
I practice no farther than 15 yards and mostly at 10 and 7 yards. I cannot imagine a CHL holder having to shoot at 25 yards.
Jerry

Frank Ettin
February 9, 2012, 02:47 PM
...I cannot imagine a CHL holder having to shoot at 25 yards.It's not necessarily a question of someone having to shoot at 25 yards in a self defense situation. It's that practice at longer distances is very helpful for developing and maintaining fundamental marksmanship skills, and those skills are useful for defensive gun uses.

That said, it is desirable to be able to practice more self defense specific skills such as presenting from a holster, shooting quickly and accurately, shooting while moving, etc. But it's difficult to find places where those skills can be practiced. Classes and some competition, like IDPA, can be helpful in that regard.

Buzzcook
February 9, 2012, 02:48 PM
There's nothing magic you learn at 10ft that you can't learn at 25yds.

How you practice is more important than the range. Well with in reason.

You can still shoot strong, weak and two handed at 25yds. You can still practice point shooting at that range as well.

Imho only shooting at a torso sized target at 3yds gives one a false sense of security.

Rj1972
February 9, 2012, 02:49 PM
I practice at 3, 10, and about 13 yards. I measured and it was about 12.5 yards from my bedroom door to my front door which is the furthest one could shoot inside my house. Some may say I might some day have to shoot further than that, but I feel ok with the plan.

Oh and most of my practice is shooting from low ready to quickly firing one or two shots (I can't do more than a double-tap at my range, so this is as close as I get to the home defense situation).

ActivShootr
February 9, 2012, 03:13 PM
Ideally: Contact distance to 100 yards.
Realistically: Any and every distance you can safely practice.

Don't worry so much about shooting itty-bitty groups as making fast hits on the target using the gun, holster, clothing, and AMMO as you will most likely be using during self defense.

Colonel Custer
February 9, 2012, 05:46 PM
3 yard nonaimed punch style shot
7 yard strong hand/ and weak hand. Supported shot (both hands)
15 yard
25 yard
30 yard

G1R2
February 9, 2012, 06:00 PM
Less than 10 feet during low light or night time conditions. If you don't have your own shooting range, your're probably out of luck.

I certainly would not want to be a defendant before a jury trying to convince them that killing someone at a distance greater than 25 feet was self defence.

robmkivseries70
February 9, 2012, 10:18 PM
To make the drills more interesting sometimes,
I'll put the targets up with the blank side out and use that for a
COM aiming point. Works at 25 yards as well as 25 feet.
Best,
Rob

Bill DeShivs
February 10, 2012, 12:40 AM
If you can shoot well at 25 yards, 3 yards should be no problem....

Old Grump
February 10, 2012, 01:06 PM
I'm really new to shooting, only 150 rounds ago I learned how to control recoil. I went from just pointing and shooting to trying to control that B*#*% and get the sights back on target pretty fast.

At 21' I can shoot about a 5 inch group pretty fast( with my glock 22 .40 cal), how tight do ya think it should be before moving back?

And while I can control the gun during recoil I think I can save a lot of time if I could line the sights up a lot faster. I will practice with the .22 for now but sometime in the future I might get a 40-9 conversion so I can practice with a little more recoil. Serious answer and I can hear the screams of anguish now is forget the SD drills for right now and practice marksmanship.

Buy your choice of 22 ammo by the case and a set of snap caps for your guns. Dry fire drills at home and slow fire at the range. When you can keep 8 or 9 shots out of 10 in the black at a slow fire target and I don't care if its 50' or 50 yards you are ready for some fun shooting namely time and rapid fire.

Get a timer to help time you or shoot with a friend and time each other. You aren't trying to learn to shoot fast but to get all of your shots on target in a short period of time. Unlike what most will insist it is not the first shot that wins a gun fight but the first good shot. Spend at least part of your time during or at the end of your session with the weak hand/strong hand drills.

When you are shooting better than 80% at a standard bullseye target at a fixed range and you transition back to a silhouette target without a set aiming point there is a brief period of adjustment but it won't take long. Do not make the rookie mistake of chasing your bullet holes. That means you shoot, the bullet landed in a good spot and you shoot at the bullet hole. Do NOT do that. If your sights are off an inch at that range you are good, if you start chasing your bullet holes your next shot will be an inch from that or 2" from your original aiming point.

Keep your focus on your sight and your sight on one part of the target and shoot till your gun is empty. You are shooting for group not bulls eyes. If you find you need to change your aiming point you can do that next time around. If you need to change your sights do it the next time around. Right now you are only shooting for group.

Don't worry about flyers, keep practicing the fundamentals and they will diminish. Do not worry about your group size, it will shrink as you get better. Do not get all down on yourself because not every shot goes where you want it to. I have been practicing and competing for nearly 50 years and I didn't get started till I was in my middle 20's. I still don't have all my shots go where I want them to. Don't worry about that one, don't worry about the next one. Just relax, have fun and concentrate on your frontsight and trigger pull.

It takes a lot of gun powder and even more trigger time to make a shooter, do not think you can do it over night, that leads to frustration and irritation and depression and giving up. Be patient, keep grinning, enjoy the fun part of it and the serious part will happen a lot faster. Get in to big of a hurry and it won't happen at all.

Dos Centavos from a dinosaur who made every rookie mistake there was to make because I was a hard headed Bohunk who didn't listen to his coach for 18 months. How was I supposed to know he was an Olympic caliber shooter, he never talked about it.

g.willikers
February 10, 2012, 02:19 PM
For practicing stuff not allowed at public ranges, don't forget about airguns.
You can do that at home in any manner you like.
Along with dryfiring your real gun, getting the feed back of actual holes in targets is mighty useful practice.
Try to find one that mimics your real guns as much as possible.
Not difficult these days with the very authentic models of airsoft and pellet pistols.

AndersonG22
February 10, 2012, 03:43 PM
For practicing stuff not allowed at public ranges, don't forget about airguns.
You can do that at home in any manner you like.
Along with dryfiring your real gun, getting the feed back of actual holes in targets is mighty useful practice.
Try to find one that mimics your real guns as much as possible.
Not difficult these days with the very authentic models of airsoft and pellet pistols.

Funny you should mention it cause I was thinking about picking up a co2 powered BB handgun, I tried to use my brothers but its broken.

When you can keep 8 or 9 shots out of 10 in the black at a slow fire target and I don't care if its 50' or 50 yards you are ready for some fun shooting namely time and rapid fire.

How big is this black area? I make my own targets out of loose lief paper, I trace a quarter with a sharpie then color it in.

JGC
February 11, 2012, 10:17 AM
I practice with my g21sf45acp at atleast 7 yards and work my way out as far as i can so that i can practice the most i can. how far is too far? ive seen more than plenty of shoots at 100 yards yet noone practices that far or at least 50 yards, gee i shot a five seven once that didnt have an issue ringing at 100... i find the 45 more practical for ccw but dont limit yourself is all iam trying to say, does competition guys are good because they try and are not affraid to try new things hence the "latest in training" thats how we get better so go out there and see how far you can shoot, its always a good excuse to shoot some ammo and have a little fun while experimenting.:cool:

JGC
February 11, 2012, 10:18 AM
G21SF 45 ACP
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78618&d=1328972828

Old Grump
February 11, 2012, 01:29 PM
How big is this black area? I make my own targets out of loose lief paper, I trace a quarter with a sharpie then color it in.

25' - 1 1/2"

50' - 3"

25 yds - 5"

50 yds - 8"

When you can do these targets with slow fire you will find your time and rapid fire get a lot easier.

Mello2u
February 11, 2012, 03:08 PM
If you credit Jeff Cooper as an authority, then you might follow his advice on "Skill Maintenance Exercises".

In part, his course of fire is mainly at the 3 yards (1 head shot from holster in 1.5 seconds), 7 yards (1 head shot from holster in 2 seconds) and 10 yards (2 shots to COM from holster in 2 seconds) distances (standing). At 15 yards you practice kneeling and at 25 yards you practice prone. [Page 143, "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" by Morrison]

Of course, his concept of "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" includes balancing Power, Speed and Accuracy. You could acquire a shot timer and work on balancing speed and accuracy.

You must place your shots (generally aimed pairs) in a vital area (8" center of mass) or you can not stop a threat. However, the shooter who can place those accurate shots faster is in a better position to prevail over the shooter who is slower to place accurate shots. A shot timer is critical to get an objective measure of how you are doing in the speed department.

AirForceShooter
February 11, 2012, 03:15 PM
In a way I'm with Cooper.
I don't count group sze , ever.
I count disabling hits or kill shots.

Anything center mass is good.

Distance from 1 foot to 12 yards.

AFS

B.N.Real
February 11, 2012, 07:18 PM
My eyes are TOAST.:rolleyes:

I don't practice any further then fifteen yards and most of the time it's seven to ten yards with some targets running towards me on the electric switch (indoor range)really close too.

If you can group well at 25 yards you're just a step ahead.

Jeff22
February 12, 2012, 02:40 AM
I took a handgun class from Louis Awerbuck back in 2006.

One drill he suggested was the following:

Target at 25 yards from the shooter. All shots begin from the holster. At the signal, draw and fire one round. When beginning on this drill, the shooter can begin from ready and with longer time limits, but the eventual goal is one center hit at 25 yards from the holster in 2-1/2 seconds.

The target is an 8 inch circle (the A zone on an IDPA target is an 8 inch circle)

I've done this drill on IPSC and IDPA targets, on 8 inch paper plates and on 8-1/2 x 11 sheets of blank paper.

I cannot routinely do this drill in 2-1/2 seconds! I usually set the par time on my timer to 5 seconds and I'm usually just under that.

I haven't shot the drill in a while, and I don't have my log book handy to check. Usually I do this drill 25 times and record how many center hits I've achieved and what time limit I was using.

Webleymkv
February 12, 2012, 02:31 PM
It depends on the gun. My S&W M36 and Walther PP are practiced with a 15 and 30 yards, all of my other semi-autos are 15, 30, and 50 yards, and my S&W Models 28, 66, and 629 are 15, 30, 50, and 100 yards. Occasionally, just for kicks and giggles, I'll take the 629 to the 200 yard range but I'm not particularly serious about it. I don't practice any closer than 15 yards because that's the shortest distance available at the range I frequent and mid-range shooting is prohibited.

I know full well that 30 yards is probably stretching what's realistic for self-defense, but I figure that it can't hurt anything to have the ability to make a longer shot even if I never have to.